I dispute Wierwille's formula for getting born again. It reveals a fundamental misunderstanding on his favorite formula verse, Rom. 10:9.
Show of hands, who really thinks that one day you get the bright idea you're going to , you know, bleeeve. So you do the formula:
1. Confess with your mouth Jesus
2. Bleeeeve in your heart god raised him from the dead.
Now you're "saved" glory hallelujah, "born-again" etc. etc.
How come not one other passage that speaks of salvation or the new birth mentions "the formula"?
Me, I don't think God is nearly so formulaic as He's been made out to be. AND I think the Bible supports my position abundantly. Oops, now I'm going doctrinal. Sorry.
I had heard about speaking in tongues from a Charismatic group in my home church. They taught that it was a gift, I found out later.
The first time I actually heard anyone speak in tongues was at my first twig. I thought it was pretty cool and went home that night and did it without any "instruction" from anyone.
I no longer beleieve in the concept of being "born again", but when I was 14 I made a conscious decision to recognize Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised hiom from the dead, although I think I sorta believed that since I was a leetle tyke.
I was saved during Vacation Bible School at Washington Avenue Baptist Church when I was about 8 or 9 years old. Brother Clayman was the Pastor of the church, and led me to Jesus.
My boyfriend's mother led me into speaking in tongues in her home the summer before I was introduced to The Way International in 1972.
My first class was my formal introduction to twi, I never went to twig before that.
I think I was born again when I was a child. I used to try to read the bible, and I often talked to God. I did the walk to the altar in a church near my home when I was 18. That was a few years before twi. I was raised catholic.
There wasn't a category for me in the poll, but I ticked #2 anyway. I was born again and I'd heard of sit. The problem is, I never wanted to sit! It sounded foolish to me. When I took the class and they asked who didn't sit, stupid me raised my hand! :D--> I was taken to a back room of sorts and was too embarrassed to sit out loud. Eventually, knowing my toddler was waiting for me, I did. During twig I hated when someone called on me to sit and interpret, but I did it anyway. I don't believe I ever faked it, even the first time!
My draw to twi was learning how to read the bible and understand it. And the biggest draw was that I was told that if twi ever taught something that they later found in their research to be untrue then they would change their teaching. I thought that was very honest and possible since it was a research minstry. HA!
I believe I was born again when I was 16 at a revival in my home town. I heard about SIT from one of my best friends who was telling me about her mom's neighbors having home Bible meetings and SIT. When I asked another best friend about it, because we had gone to Sunday School together when we were young, she told me Methodists don't believe in it. So, when I heard it at my first TWI event I wasn't surprised, just relieved that someone might be able to explain it all to me finally.
I was born and raised Greek Orthodox. (never even heard the two words, 'born-again' mentioned together in a sentence until I was 21-22 years old.
I believe I was born again one evening long before TWI. I was witnessed to by a dear couple, Brethren or Baptist or something...they were Christians, that much I believe...soon after that, I knelt by my bedroom window and asked GOD about this SIT's business and if He wanted me to do it? I had heard about it in a church service.
I opened my mouth, spoke a few words, then shut-up...I had no understanding about any of the pneumatikos.
Nevertheless, as I look back at the moment (remains clear as a bell some 30 years later), I believe I in fact did speak in tongues, be it only a few words.
Very, Very few people were actually born again or taught to SIT by the man himself nor by his ministry.
Oh really?
I trow not
True, in my case it wasn't by the man himself. But by his ministry, no question.
It was the ministry of Victor Paul Wierwille that inspired me to get born again and speak in tongues. It was no mirage, no hoax.
I'm sure that was your experience Oldies, but I recall hearing leaders (not sure if Wierwille was one of them) that most people were born again before coming to The Way, that The Way and Wierwille were responsible for bronging people to "an accurate knowledge of the truth"
My best high school friend did a brief but memorable stint in a Pentecostal Church when we were around sixteen--she had a brand new Mustang, and we both worked the same shift at Mcdonalds--fun times. I went to church with her several times, heard SIT(with a different person doing the interp) and only the minister gave words of prophecy at this church. Also, they had a million rules about women's clothing(dresses only, no makeup etc) which was a real deal breaker for me, since fashion was one of my major interests in life at that age!
In between thoughts of boys and clothes I do remember reading the Are You Saved? pamphlets etc, and I did the Let Jesus into your Heart prayer...never spoke in tongues until I met the wows.
It's funny reading people posting about Methodists, Lutherans, Greek Orthodox, Pentecostal churches etc..couldn't wear certain clothes,never heard the words 'born-again',weren't allowed or encouraged to s.i.t. etc.. and yet others posting about how much 'truth' is out there in these other churches !!
Alan, do not turn this thread into yet another unwarranted attack on Rascal. If you don't like her posts just ignore them.
Regarding people growing up in other churches....that was then - this is now. Churches have come a long way in just the past ten years. They are now teaching just as much as TWI ever though of teaching and it's properly attributed to the correct sources and way more accurate than 90% of what TWI taught.
If TWI is so wonderful, why are you no longer involved? We're discussing things here, not attacking one another. If you want a Christian forum there's plenty around. If you want to attack and flame people, there's other websites for that. This is not the place for you.
You'll have to weed through the thread to find the comments from people about being born again, but I actually think you'll benefit from reading the whole thing. You may find that you and Oldiesman are kindred spirits. :)-->
Allan, if you'd care to engage in a discussion about "saved", "new birth", etc. etc. I think it might be enlightening for everybody. But I'm asking you to go first. And over in Doctrinal, of course. I just don't want to start the discussion unless you really want to have the discussion. But if you do, I'll participate as best I can.
Allan--the Pentacostal Church I went to was a converted house, back in 1973, unaffiliated with any big denomination--a rebel, if you will.
Times have changed, man. How many churches nowdays have SIT or groups that SIT? Heck, I even know some charismatic Roman Catholics.
I was in TWI for 20 years, nearly all my adult life. I quit SIT deliberately a few years ago because I realized it was my response to a crisis situation, I had doubts about it, and I wanted to see if life would be better or worse with or with out it. Yup, that's me. Risk taking all the way.
Haven't missed it.
Life since we left has constantly improved.
Put down other churches all you want, Allan,--I know how ugly life in TWI was. Now, I could gloss over all the yucky stuff and constantly parrot the happy memories--but what would be the point? To help people join TWI. Not doing that! Not raising my kids in it.
It's funny reading people posting about Methodists, Lutherans, Greek Orthodox, Pentecostal churches etc..couldn't wear certain clothes,never heard the words 'born-again',weren't allowed or encouraged to s.i.t. etc.. and yet others posting about how much 'truth' is out there in these other churches !!
Ah yes. And who picked up the folks that FLED these controlling, high pressure organizations?
Oh yes. Good ole vic welcomed them into the open arms of "love"..
That was sure nice of him. Until he figured in his twisted little mind that love wasn't the present truth it was cracked up to be.. then slowly came the commitment, sacrifice, and related BS.
He made it WORSE than the denominations us poor devils came OUT of.
Speaking in tongues- even IF HIS ministry did the deed, the price was far to high to pay.
Branded as a Vey "tonguer" all the days of yer life.. ptooie.
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Allan
according to the poll vast majority 'learnt' about s.i.t. from pfal ?!
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TheEvan
I dispute Wierwille's formula for getting born again. It reveals a fundamental misunderstanding on his favorite formula verse, Rom. 10:9.
Show of hands, who really thinks that one day you get the bright idea you're going to , you know, bleeeve. So you do the formula:
1. Confess with your mouth Jesus
2. Bleeeeve in your heart god raised him from the dead.
Now you're "saved" glory hallelujah, "born-again" etc. etc.
How come not one other passage that speaks of salvation or the new birth mentions "the formula"?
Me, I don't think God is nearly so formulaic as He's been made out to be. AND I think the Bible supports my position abundantly. Oops, now I'm going doctrinal. Sorry.
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rascal
Evan, I agree with your assessment.
There was something fundamentally wrong with the formulas......
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rascal
Allan, to which we`d say *so WHAT*?? Learning to sit sure didn`t do much to protect us from the animals that taught it.
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Oakspear
I had heard about speaking in tongues from a Charismatic group in my home church. They taught that it was a gift, I found out later.
The first time I actually heard anyone speak in tongues was at my first twig. I thought it was pretty cool and went home that night and did it without any "instruction" from anyone.
I no longer beleieve in the concept of being "born again", but when I was 14 I made a conscious decision to recognize Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised hiom from the dead, although I think I sorta believed that since I was a leetle tyke.
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Oakspear
...and another thing...
I know longer believe that SIT is necessarily or exclusively what TWI said it was.
Others, besides Christians, speak in tongues.
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Catcup
I was saved during Vacation Bible School at Washington Avenue Baptist Church when I was about 8 or 9 years old. Brother Clayman was the Pastor of the church, and led me to Jesus.
My boyfriend's mother led me into speaking in tongues in her home the summer before I was introduced to The Way International in 1972.
TWI cannot take credit for either event.
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gc
My first class was my formal introduction to twi, I never went to twig before that.
I think I was born again when I was a child. I used to try to read the bible, and I often talked to God. I did the walk to the altar in a church near my home when I was 18. That was a few years before twi. I was raised catholic.
There wasn't a category for me in the poll, but I ticked #2 anyway. I was born again and I'd heard of sit. The problem is, I never wanted to sit! It sounded foolish to me. When I took the class and they asked who didn't sit, stupid me raised my hand!
:D--> I was taken to a back room of sorts and was too embarrassed to sit out loud. Eventually, knowing my toddler was waiting for me, I did. During twig I hated when someone called on me to sit and interpret, but I did it anyway. I don't believe I ever faked it, even the first time!
My draw to twi was learning how to read the bible and understand it. And the biggest draw was that I was told that if twi ever taught something that they later found in their research to be untrue then they would change their teaching. I thought that was very honest and possible since it was a research minstry. HA!
btw, I still sit, mostly in private prayer.
gc
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MTgal
I believe I was born again when I was 16 at a revival in my home town. I heard about SIT from one of my best friends who was telling me about her mom's neighbors having home Bible meetings and SIT. When I asked another best friend about it, because we had gone to Sunday School together when we were young, she told me Methodists don't believe in it. So, when I heard it at my first TWI event I wasn't surprised, just relieved that someone might be able to explain it all to me finally.
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penguin
Actually I didn't do either until after I started going to twig. I spoke in tongues during the class--but did it before the last session.
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oilfieldmedic
I was born and raised Greek Orthodox. (never even heard the two words, 'born-again' mentioned together in a sentence until I was 21-22 years old.
I believe I was born again one evening long before TWI. I was witnessed to by a dear couple, Brethren or Baptist or something...they were Christians, that much I believe...soon after that, I knelt by my bedroom window and asked GOD about this SIT's business and if He wanted me to do it? I had heard about it in a church service.
I opened my mouth, spoke a few words, then shut-up...I had no understanding about any of the pneumatikos.
Nevertheless, as I look back at the moment (remains clear as a bell some 30 years later), I believe I in fact did speak in tongues, be it only a few words.
I still do!
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Ham
Interesting. With the pole so far, one out of TWENTY FIVE came to Jesus Christ because of the class.
Says a lot for the thing..
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Ham
"Accidents happen"
:P-->
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Oakspear
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Bramble
My best high school friend did a brief but memorable stint in a Pentecostal Church when we were around sixteen--she had a brand new Mustang, and we both worked the same shift at Mcdonalds--fun times. I went to church with her several times, heard SIT(with a different person doing the interp) and only the minister gave words of prophecy at this church. Also, they had a million rules about women's clothing(dresses only, no makeup etc) which was a real deal breaker for me, since fashion was one of my major interests in life at that age!
In between thoughts of boys and clothes I do remember reading the Are You Saved? pamphlets etc, and I did the Let Jesus into your Heart prayer...never spoke in tongues until I met the wows.
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Allan
Rascal said about Speaking in tongues "so what"
Well thats the kind of response I'd expect from you.I really doubt you were even in twi at all.
Does anybody know you at all from there ??
This is after all an 'ex-way' forum isn't it ?!
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Allan
It's funny reading people posting about Methodists, Lutherans, Greek Orthodox, Pentecostal churches etc..couldn't wear certain clothes,never heard the words 'born-again',weren't allowed or encouraged to s.i.t. etc.. and yet others posting about how much 'truth' is out there in these other churches !!
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Belle
Alan, do not turn this thread into yet another unwarranted attack on Rascal. If you don't like her posts just ignore them.
Regarding people growing up in other churches....that was then - this is now. Churches have come a long way in just the past ten years. They are now teaching just as much as TWI ever though of teaching and it's properly attributed to the correct sources and way more accurate than 90% of what TWI taught.
If TWI is so wonderful, why are you no longer involved? We're discussing things here, not attacking one another. If you want a Christian forum there's plenty around. If you want to attack and flame people, there's other websites for that. This is not the place for you.
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Belle
Alan, here's a link to one of the many threads on SIT here and how many people actually faked it: SIT and Faking It
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Belle
You'll have to weed through the thread to find the comments from people about being born again, but I actually think you'll benefit from reading the whole thing. You may find that you and Oldiesman are kindred spirits.
:)-->
BG Leonard Thread
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TheEvan
Allan, if you'd care to engage in a discussion about "saved", "new birth", etc. etc. I think it might be enlightening for everybody. But I'm asking you to go first. And over in Doctrinal, of course. I just don't want to start the discussion unless you really want to have the discussion. But if you do, I'll participate as best I can.
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Bramble
Allan--the Pentacostal Church I went to was a converted house, back in 1973, unaffiliated with any big denomination--a rebel, if you will.
Times have changed, man. How many churches nowdays have SIT or groups that SIT? Heck, I even know some charismatic Roman Catholics.
I was in TWI for 20 years, nearly all my adult life. I quit SIT deliberately a few years ago because I realized it was my response to a crisis situation, I had doubts about it, and I wanted to see if life would be better or worse with or with out it. Yup, that's me. Risk taking all the way.
Haven't missed it.
Life since we left has constantly improved.
Put down other churches all you want, Allan,--I know how ugly life in TWI was. Now, I could gloss over all the yucky stuff and constantly parrot the happy memories--but what would be the point? To help people join TWI. Not doing that! Not raising my kids in it.
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Ham
Some of us can only wish..
So far twenty five out of twenty six came to the Lord OUTSIDE of vics "ministry".
Even the "critics" have to acknowledge this much..
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Ham
Ah yes. And who picked up the folks that FLED these controlling, high pressure organizations?
Oh yes. Good ole vic welcomed them into the open arms of "love"..
That was sure nice of him. Until he figured in his twisted little mind that love wasn't the present truth it was cracked up to be.. then slowly came the commitment, sacrifice, and related BS.
He made it WORSE than the denominations us poor devils came OUT of.
Speaking in tongues- even IF HIS ministry did the deed, the price was far to high to pay.
Branded as a Vey "tonguer" all the days of yer life.. ptooie.
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