Well friends, once again I have missed out on some good discussion. My eleven hour work days and my son's work on the family pc have kept me away til almost bedtime. So I must step back to the status of an interested lurker.
But if I may be so presumptuous as to speak for Evan: I believe the long, low whistle indicates that it's quite a stretch to try to justify praying to dead people and to present that as a doctrine that doesn't do violence to the Scripture. Everything in the NT says we are to pray to God or Christ; no one else for any reason at any time. So the Catholic tradition of praying to Mary or anyone else is, in the minds of Protestants, a clear clash with the belief in the inerrancy of Scripture.
Thanks for the additional information on the Marcionites and the reference. I'll try to get a copy of it from my library (or inter-library loan) when I have the time to devote to reading it.
I think you might benefit most from E.C. Blackman's treatment of the subject - "Marcion and His Influence".
He writes from an orthodox position, and does a fine job summarizing the various theories that had been proposed up to that point (1948). It's a good introduction along with Harnack's work.
"Inter-library loan" is the only way to go on these volumes, unless one wants to shell our $300 for a 1985 out-of-print English translation of Harnack, or just about any other out-of-print volume on the topic.
I'm glad I picked up my volumes during the early 90s (lol).
I can't, however, disagree with you on the point you make about Marcionism being Catholicism without the influence of the Old Testament. Again, I can't speak authoritatively about Marcionism and won't attempt to do so, but Catholicism, without the influence of the Old Testament, would be radically different. In fact, I could imagine that it would be unrecognizable.
It's not unreasonable to imagine so. Yet intriguingly so, when the Catholic and Marcionite churches were competing side by side, they shared a great many things in their practices. The sacrements of baptism(s) and communion; an effective church structure comprised of a succession of bishops, deacons, presbyters, etc.; an ambitious missionary program; celebacy; astheticism; the honor of a great many martyrs sacrificed for the sake of the Gospel. There were certainly differences, but to an outsider such may not have been immediately apparent. Only to cite some examples, the Marcionites permitted women to hold church offices and to baptize. Used water in place of wine in the communion sacrement. Allowed pagans to attend the administering of the sacrements; etc.
Much of Catholic liturgical symbolism was based upon Old Testament models. As the author of Hebrews stated, much of the Old Testament ritual was "a symbol (figure) for the present time."
For example, the Divine Office can trace its origins to the Old Testament custom of prayers five times a day, (morning, noon, afternoon, evening, night), as continued by the Apostles (shown numerous places throughout Acts). You can see the definite old testament influences even in the architecture of churches.
One question I have for you, though, is did Marcion reject all the scriptures that had an old testament influence on them or just a portion of them? I'm not sure how that worked, other than the fact that he rejected a number of the writings in his canon.
One of the greatest challenges of any attempt to understand Marcion is trying to imagine how he interpreted much OT material which did indeed stand in his NT canon (despite the common accusations that he had entirely omitted such kind of material), in view of his theology. If Marcion blotted out anything and everything remotely Jewish or Hebraic from his Bible, he did an extremely very sloppy job, because there is much remaining in his texts which may be deemed counter to his position - as such indeed was the charge from his opponents' standpoint, which they wasted no space to capitalize upon.
A basic question must be posed and explored: how did the Marcionites themselves interpret - or view - the presence and function of OT material in their own canon?
I've come to the preliminary (and at the moment, experimental) conclusion - they interpreted OT citations and allusions in their text along the lines of serving an antithetical, contrastive function, -namely, of "the Old versus the New" -whereas the proto-orthodox movements construed these same passages in the sense of the "fulfilment" of what was written.
Just a couple examples from 1st Corinthians (these are from an interpretive reconstruction of Marcion's version of Paul still in progress):
Antithesis
2:9 But, as it has been said: The things which eye
hath not seen, and ear hath not heard, and
upon the heart of man have not come up,
—whatsoever things this deity hath
prepared for them that love him,—
10 But to us, in fact, hath the Supreme God
revealed through His Spirit; for the Spirit
enlightens into all things, yea! Even into the
depths of the Highest God.
Antithesis
6:16 ...know ye not that, he that joins himself to
the harlot, becomes one body?
For it has been said that
the two shall become one flesh;
17 But (I say), he that joins himself to the Lord
is one Spirit!
Antithesis
8 For [the World-Creator did not create] man
from the woman, but woman from the man;
9 For also man was not created for the sake of
the woman, but woman for the sake of the
man...
11 But with the Good Lord, neither is woman
derived from man, nor man derived from
woman!
12 For (with the World-Creator) the woman is
of the man, and the man is of the
woman;—but all are One in the Supreme
God!
Antithesis
15:45 Thus also, [the Creator had] written—
The first man, Adam, became a living soul;
But the New One, the Lord from heaven,
a life-imparting Spirit!
And just for a brain teaser I must include this:
Orthodox perspective:
Many will come in my name. Some will come even saying
"I am the Christ".
Marcionite perspective:
Many will come in my name.
Some will come even saying that I am "the Christ"!
Reconstructing the mind and viewpoint of ancient readers can be just as great a challenge
-if not more so -as reconstructing their texts (lol).
So..that now makes Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Wiccas, Pagans, Baptists, Calvanists AND Catholics posting here...
There is no such thning as "a Wicca" - there is at least one "Wiccan" posting here
So..that now makes Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Wiccas, Pagans, Baptists, Calvanists AND Catholics posting here..
Sadly, I think there goes any chances of 'innies' being convinced by GSC to leave twi unlike 'waydale' could do.
On the contrary, I believe that the wide variety of beliefs could conceivably convince some "innies" that the TWI viewpoint is not the only one possible.
Edited by Oakspear
So..that now makes Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Wiccas, Pagans, Baptists, Calvanists AND Catholics posting here..
Sadly, I think there goes any chances of 'innies' being convinced by GSC to leave twi unlike 'waydale' could do.
Allan, dear, Just who do you think was positing at waydale???? <_<
oh, and BTW, you forgot the agnostics and atheists B)
The fact that we can all post in the same spot and keep posting despite our differences, which are many--immwdiately shows the fallacy of TWI who would have its followers believe that any sort of harmony, happiness, or life is available outside its tightly regimented walls.
On the contrary, I believe that the wide variety of beliefs could conceivably convince some "innies" that the TWI viewpoint is not the only one possible.
Allan, dear, Just who do you think was positing at waydale???? <_<
oh, and BTW, you forgot the agnostics and atheists B)
The fact that we can all post in the same spot and keep posting despite our differences, which are many--immwdiately shows the fallacy of TWI who would have its followers believe that any sort of harmony, happiness, or life is available outside its tightly regimented walls.
Oak/Mo,
I guess, according to your friend, the three of us should not be allowed to post on this site with our heretical views.
Good thing that he is not the mod, because the site would miss two of the most articulate posters that it is my pleasure to read.
I won't post the graphics/sound again, but my advice still remains, "Don't feed the trolls."
Sorry I have nothing to contribute to the forum as I am just beginning to learn more about the history of religion and Christianity. I'm also still evaluating and learning about TWI doctrine more here at the Gspot.
I just want to thank all of you for your contributions, particularly to this thread. I am most impressed with your knowledge and the time that it has taken for you all to learn what you have. It's nice to read heated discussions that don't degrade into labelling, name-calling and out and out insults instead of merely passionate discussions and disagreements over doctrine, history and viewpoints. :)
I also highly recommend the "ignore" function on said trolls. It works very well! ;)
Oakspear..on the contrary to your contrary.I think any of them that can still think will look at these 'religious viewpoints' and wonder if twi were right in what they said about the 'internet' !!
Oakspear..on the contrary to your contrary.I think any of them that can still think will look at these 'religious viewpoints' and wonder if twi were right in what they said about the 'internet' !!
Allan, If you believe TWI was right why are you still here???
I mean you disagree with 98% of everything posted here
YOu aren't really pleased with any of us
By now you should have figured out that most of us aren't going to come around to 100% acceptance of your viewpoints.
I am not saying don't post, I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinions, views, ideas and the right to post same. They are as much a part of the melting pot that is GSC as mine or anyone else's
But GSC is what it is
Either accept that and deal with it or stop making yourself miserable
"GOd grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, The courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
Speaking of Mormons, Catholics, and JW's, the current issue of Newsweek has a cover story about "The Making of the MORMONS"Looks like an interesting read. Perhaps Mo can score the article for accuracy and fairness. :-)PeaceJerryB
Oakspear..on the contrary to your contrary.I think any of them that can still think will look at these 'religious viewpoints' and wonder if twi were right in what they said about the 'internet' !!
I guess it depends on how much our hypothetical "innies" are willing to think.
but then again xxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxx..don't lie to me about who you are in your abusive 'trinitarian' emails to me !
I know its kind of late in the thread and I've voiced my view on revealing private messages so need not repeat it but I must ask what you're saying as far as a name? Are you saying a screen name of xxx xxxxxx sent that pm to you? I have read the 2 xxxxx I'm familiar with that post here and neither of them fit that description in actions from my observation. And again I see no reason for you to be revealing whatever whoever said to you but I'd like to cease confusion on this name thing and move on please. And you're the only one that can provide that answer thank you.
Yeah, bad form to disclose the identity of another poster without their permission.
As far as what innies see here? Well it has been more than enough to help many of them leave twi....the most recent of which left just this week and is posting :D
I`d say that gs is successfull and has been in lighting the path to the door for many many hundreds of innies for over 5 years now ...even WITHOUT your sanction or aproval allan
I agree that having many different viewpoints to read and discuss gives those looking outside TWI different perspectives and different things to chew on. Some of the "innies" may already be questioning things or thinking back on how what TWI teaches doesn't line up with what they were taught growing up. If someone here practices the same beliefs that they grew up with, it gives them someone to connect with and someone to help them reconcile parts of TWI doctrine with their core beliefs that had gotten shoved under the rug, so to speak.
Also, it gives those who've never known anything but TWI doctrine different avenues to consider upon leaving. TWI teaches that "there's nothing better out there". GSpot gives folks a glimpse of some of what's out there and allows them to explore in a safe environment.
I myself have considered things I wouldn't have otherwise considered if everyone here believed the same thing or if they weren't allowed to share their beliefs, theories and studies. I've learned a lot about the history of religion, Judaism and Christianity. I've learned about the Celtic culture and beliefs, many other religions and even how different "offshoots" operate and which teaching of TWI they've "corrected" vs. which ones they hold near and dear. I've "seen" the attitude, behavior, compassion (or lack thereof) and the fruit in the lives of these people as they interact with others on the board and that, too, has lead me to or away from certain groups.
Variety is a good thing. A closed mind is not. That's how TWI got into trouble in many ways....not allowing differences of thought and questions from their own people. It's good that most of the people on here can discuss, disagree and continue dialog without resorting to name-calling, attacking, flaming and de-railing threads. I'm always impressed with those discussions and the people acting so maturely as to stay on the topic at hand.
If xxxxxxx xxxxxx isn't one of the two posters here, then no problem then is there !! But if one of them is the one sending me 'abusive' emails let them admit who they are.The sudden silence is a 'little' incriminating from the 'trinitarian Catholic corner.!!
Similar to 'Mudslingerlady' who doesn't want to discuss the 'fallacies' of her Religion..a little 'duck and weave ' what what !!
There IS a problem because you have either A) revealed a posters identity without permission or .... B ) misidentified a poster which could lead to problems for said poster.
Both are bad form, attacking posters personally or for their beliefs is not acceptable either.
While your venom, your bad manners and your unwarranted personal attacks....are perfectly understandible behavior in someone who has been a long time participant in a viscious mind bending cult......it doesn`t inspire respect for you or your pov.
Your personal conduct is a prime example of what the end result of belief in twi doctrine is....You are an inspiration Allan, but not in the way that you would hope....
If xxxxx xxxxxx isn't one of the two posters here, then no problem then is there !! But if one of them is the one sending me 'abusive' emails let them admit who they are.The sudden silence is a 'little' incriminating from the 'trinitarian Catholic corner.!!
Similar to 'Mudslingerlady' who doesn't want to discuss the 'fallacies' of her Religion..a little 'duck and weave ' what what !!
Alan,
I've not followed all your posts so know little regarding you but if you feel revealing poster names and private messages is acceptable then you've stumbled into the wrong community and will quickly discover folks will begin to ignore you until finally you'll bore of talking into the wind.
If xxxxx xxxxxx isn't one of the two posters here, then no problem then is there !! But if one of them is the one sending me 'abusive' emails let them admit who they are.The sudden silence is a 'little' incriminating from the 'trinitarian Catholic corner.!!
OR he has very wisely hit the *ignore* button... ....in any case you are wrong Allan, The CLASSY thing to do would be to apologise
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markomalley
????
I am a Catholic. I have never denied that fact. How did this cause me to 'come out of the closet?'
Further, did that brief post answer your question?
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Jbarrax
Well friends, once again I have missed out on some good discussion. My eleven hour work days and my son's work on the family pc have kept me away til almost bedtime. So I must step back to the status of an interested lurker.
But if I may be so presumptuous as to speak for Evan: I believe the long, low whistle indicates that it's quite a stretch to try to justify praying to dead people and to present that as a doctrine that doesn't do violence to the Scripture. Everything in the NT says we are to pray to God or Christ; no one else for any reason at any time. So the Catholic tradition of praying to Mary or anyone else is, in the minds of Protestants, a clear clash with the belief in the inerrancy of Scripture.
Carry on....
JerryB
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Allan
Evan !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..I picked up on it when Mark emailed me but (deliberately)? spelt his name with a 'c' at the end !!!
So..that now makes Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Wiccas, Pagans, Baptists, Calvanists AND Catholics posting here..
Sadly, I think there goes any chances of 'innies' being convinced by GSC to leave twi unlike 'waydale' could do.
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TheInvisibleDan
I think you might benefit most from E.C. Blackman's treatment of the subject - "Marcion and His Influence".
He writes from an orthodox position, and does a fine job summarizing the various theories that had been proposed up to that point (1948). It's a good introduction along with Harnack's work.
"Inter-library loan" is the only way to go on these volumes, unless one wants to shell our $300 for a 1985 out-of-print English translation of Harnack, or just about any other out-of-print volume on the topic.
I'm glad I picked up my volumes during the early 90s (lol).
It's not unreasonable to imagine so. Yet intriguingly so, when the Catholic and Marcionite churches were competing side by side, they shared a great many things in their practices. The sacrements of baptism(s) and communion; an effective church structure comprised of a succession of bishops, deacons, presbyters, etc.; an ambitious missionary program; celebacy; astheticism; the honor of a great many martyrs sacrificed for the sake of the Gospel. There were certainly differences, but to an outsider such may not have been immediately apparent. Only to cite some examples, the Marcionites permitted women to hold church offices and to baptize. Used water in place of wine in the communion sacrement. Allowed pagans to attend the administering of the sacrements; etc.One of the greatest challenges of any attempt to understand Marcion is trying to imagine how he interpreted much OT material which did indeed stand in his NT canon (despite the common accusations that he had entirely omitted such kind of material), in view of his theology. If Marcion blotted out anything and everything remotely Jewish or Hebraic from his Bible, he did an extremely very sloppy job, because there is much remaining in his texts which may be deemed counter to his position - as such indeed was the charge from his opponents' standpoint, which they wasted no space to capitalize upon.
A basic question must be posed and explored: how did the Marcionites themselves interpret - or view - the presence and function of OT material in their own canon?
I've come to the preliminary (and at the moment, experimental) conclusion - they interpreted OT citations and allusions in their text along the lines of serving an antithetical, contrastive function, -namely, of "the Old versus the New" -whereas the proto-orthodox movements construed these same passages in the sense of the "fulfilment" of what was written.
Just a couple examples from 1st Corinthians (these are from an interpretive reconstruction of Marcion's version of Paul still in progress):
Antithesis
2:9 But, as it has been said: The things which eye
hath not seen, and ear hath not heard, and
upon the heart of man have not come up,
—whatsoever things this deity hath
prepared for them that love him,—
10 But to us, in fact, hath the Supreme God
revealed through His Spirit; for the Spirit
enlightens into all things, yea! Even into the
depths of the Highest God.
Antithesis
6:16 ...know ye not that, he that joins himself to
the harlot, becomes one body?
For it has been said that
the two shall become one flesh;
17 But (I say), he that joins himself to the Lord
is one Spirit!
Antithesis
8 For [the World-Creator did not create] man
from the woman, but woman from the man;
9 For also man was not created for the sake of
the woman, but woman for the sake of the
man...
11 But with the Good Lord, neither is woman
derived from man, nor man derived from
woman!
12 For (with the World-Creator) the woman is
of the man, and the man is of the
woman;—but all are One in the Supreme
God!
Antithesis
15:45 Thus also, [the Creator had] written—
The first man, Adam, became a living soul;
But the New One, the Lord from heaven,
a life-imparting Spirit!
And just for a brain teaser I must include this:
Orthodox perspective:
Many will come in my name. Some will come even saying
"I am the Christ".
Marcionite perspective:
Many will come in my name.
Some will come even saying that I am "the Christ"!
Reconstructing the mind and viewpoint of ancient readers can be just as great a challenge
-if not more so -as reconstructing their texts (lol).
I enjoyed your post Mark. Thank you.
Danny
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Oakspear
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templelady
Allan, dear, Just who do you think was positing at waydale???? <_<
oh, and BTW, you forgot the agnostics and atheists B)
The fact that we can all post in the same spot and keep posting despite our differences, which are many--immwdiately shows the fallacy of TWI who would have its followers believe that any sort of harmony, happiness, or life is available outside its tightly regimented walls.
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markomalley
Danny,
Thanks for the information. Those are indeed some subtle, but significant, differences you point out.
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markomalley
Oak/Mo,
I guess, according to your friend, the three of us should not be allowed to post on this site with our heretical views.
Good thing that he is not the mod, because the site would miss two of the most articulate posters that it is my pleasure to read.
I won't post the graphics/sound again, but my advice still remains, "Don't feed the trolls."
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templelady
But who can resist those chubby little cheeks????
NOw back to our regualrly scheduled propgram
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Belle
Sorry I have nothing to contribute to the forum as I am just beginning to learn more about the history of religion and Christianity. I'm also still evaluating and learning about TWI doctrine more here at the Gspot.
I just want to thank all of you for your contributions, particularly to this thread. I am most impressed with your knowledge and the time that it has taken for you all to learn what you have. It's nice to read heated discussions that don't degrade into labelling, name-calling and out and out insults instead of merely passionate discussions and disagreements over doctrine, history and viewpoints. :)
I also highly recommend the "ignore" function on said trolls. It works very well! ;)
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ChattyKathy
Belle, I've been thinking the very same thing about this thread and the way they talked with each other.
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Allan
but then again xxxxxxxxxxxxxx..don't lie to me about who you are in your abusive 'trinitarian' emails to me !
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Allan
Oakspear..on the contrary to your contrary.I think any of them that can still think will look at these 'religious viewpoints' and wonder if twi were right in what they said about the 'internet' !!
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templelady
Allan, If you believe TWI was right why are you still here???
I mean you disagree with 98% of everything posted here
YOu aren't really pleased with any of us
By now you should have figured out that most of us aren't going to come around to 100% acceptance of your viewpoints.
I am not saying don't post, I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinions, views, ideas and the right to post same. They are as much a part of the melting pot that is GSC as mine or anyone else's
But GSC is what it is
Either accept that and deal with it or stop making yourself miserable
"GOd grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, The courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
Doesn't only apply to recovery
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Jbarrax
Speaking of Mormons, Catholics, and JW's, the current issue of Newsweek has a cover story about "The Making of the MORMONS"Looks like an interesting read. Perhaps Mo can score the article for accuracy and fairness. :-)PeaceJerryB
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Oakspear
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templelady
Newsweek is Newsweek--NOt about to try to "Score" a reporter looking for a story--much less go buy a copy LOL
If you have specific questions you know where to find me :)
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ChattyKathy
I know its kind of late in the thread and I've voiced my view on revealing private messages so need not repeat it but I must ask what you're saying as far as a name? Are you saying a screen name of xxx xxxxxx sent that pm to you? I have read the 2 xxxxx I'm familiar with that post here and neither of them fit that description in actions from my observation. And again I see no reason for you to be revealing whatever whoever said to you but I'd like to cease confusion on this name thing and move on please. And you're the only one that can provide that answer thank you.
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rascal
Yeah, bad form to disclose the identity of another poster without their permission.
As far as what innies see here? Well it has been more than enough to help many of them leave twi....the most recent of which left just this week and is posting :D
I`d say that gs is successfull and has been in lighting the path to the door for many many hundreds of innies for over 5 years now ...even WITHOUT your sanction or aproval allan
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Belle
I agree that having many different viewpoints to read and discuss gives those looking outside TWI different perspectives and different things to chew on. Some of the "innies" may already be questioning things or thinking back on how what TWI teaches doesn't line up with what they were taught growing up. If someone here practices the same beliefs that they grew up with, it gives them someone to connect with and someone to help them reconcile parts of TWI doctrine with their core beliefs that had gotten shoved under the rug, so to speak.
Also, it gives those who've never known anything but TWI doctrine different avenues to consider upon leaving. TWI teaches that "there's nothing better out there". GSpot gives folks a glimpse of some of what's out there and allows them to explore in a safe environment.
I myself have considered things I wouldn't have otherwise considered if everyone here believed the same thing or if they weren't allowed to share their beliefs, theories and studies. I've learned a lot about the history of religion, Judaism and Christianity. I've learned about the Celtic culture and beliefs, many other religions and even how different "offshoots" operate and which teaching of TWI they've "corrected" vs. which ones they hold near and dear. I've "seen" the attitude, behavior, compassion (or lack thereof) and the fruit in the lives of these people as they interact with others on the board and that, too, has lead me to or away from certain groups.
Variety is a good thing. A closed mind is not. That's how TWI got into trouble in many ways....not allowing differences of thought and questions from their own people. It's good that most of the people on here can discuss, disagree and continue dialog without resorting to name-calling, attacking, flaming and de-railing threads. I'm always impressed with those discussions and the people acting so maturely as to stay on the topic at hand.
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Allan
If xxxxxxx xxxxxx isn't one of the two posters here, then no problem then is there !! But if one of them is the one sending me 'abusive' emails let them admit who they are.The sudden silence is a 'little' incriminating from the 'trinitarian Catholic corner.!!
Similar to 'Mudslingerlady' who doesn't want to discuss the 'fallacies' of her Religion..a little 'duck and weave ' what what !!
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rascal
There IS a problem because you have either A) revealed a posters identity without permission or .... B ) misidentified a poster which could lead to problems for said poster.
Both are bad form, attacking posters personally or for their beliefs is not acceptable either.
While your venom, your bad manners and your unwarranted personal attacks....are perfectly understandible behavior in someone who has been a long time participant in a viscious mind bending cult......it doesn`t inspire respect for you or your pov.
Your personal conduct is a prime example of what the end result of belief in twi doctrine is....You are an inspiration Allan, but not in the way that you would hope....
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ChattyKathy
Alan,
I've not followed all your posts so know little regarding you but if you feel revealing poster names and private messages is acceptable then you've stumbled into the wrong community and will quickly discover folks will begin to ignore you until finally you'll bore of talking into the wind.
Kathy
ps..I'm not trying to fight with you btw!
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rascal
OR he has very wisely hit the *ignore* button... ....in any case you are wrong Allan, The CLASSY thing to do would be to apologise
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