So... when you two left, did you call any of your TWI friends to tell them you were leaving? It doesn't sound like it. It sounds like you were waiting on them to call YOU. No? How long had you guys been in?
So... when you two left, did you call any of your TWI friends to tell them you were leaving? It doesn't sound like it. It sounds like you were waiting on them to call YOU. No? How long had you guys been in?
<center>sudo</center>
Dearest Sudo,
Of course we called the ones we "hung with". That was hard enough! One couple refused to listen to any more than a "little" of what we had to say. These are folks that we "had beers with".
Another couple was "All Ears" because they were READY to hear it.
The rest, No we didn't feel it was our place to call and ruffle feathers.
My point was to show that "if things have changed"....then they WOULD have called and checked on us. It is only natural when you care about someone to wonder what happens when you disappear or there is negative talk. But, that is my point.
It has not changed, considering all the rhetoric.
We were in FOREVER.BTW
and Mooney........what are you tracking me? LOL
They were informed last month.........................................it was brushed under the rug, they don't want to discuss......
At least they aren't mark and avoiding us.........I hope.
1Rst glad you had the courage to get the heck out.
2.Where does the so called one and only ones with the truth go around speaking curses?
3.I for one wish no evil on them,if they wish evil or speak evil about me that is thier problem
4.I speak to the "holders of the only truth" once in a while,as my wife goes to fellowship once in a great
while.Is it hard on me?you bet but I can deal with it,though it does suck
5.After being "out" a few years,and yes thanks to greasespot,they the "only holders of the truth"will be held accountable the same as the rest of us
Finally it is nice to be out of thier sphere of influence.Also bad things do happen to people,the twi,as well as everyone else.
Oh high and mighty fellowship cowhatsis(co-ordinator) get a life you aint no different than the rest of us,remember we were all made the same in gods eyes? So give it a rest.
The saying "holders of the only truth" if of course sarcastic,as did not the son on god ask what is truth.
Directly to the way twi::let your people talk to whoever they want to it aint any of your freaking buisness
You are a freaking control ministry,no wonder no signs and wonders,freaking let god be god and quit playing god
Re:"My point was to show that "if things have changed"....then they WOULD have called and checked on us."
You had already called the folks you were close to, right? So these others who didn't call... ya'll weren't particularly close to anyways? Right? I don't know if *I* would have called you up either if I didn't know you that well. The same thing goes on in churches, 'ya know. I don't think I've EVER called up someone who left our church and asked them what was up. If Carol and I had been close to them we already knew what was going on.
Bliss... I know this is a stressful time for you and I'm not wanting to make things difficult or confrontational here for you. I wish you and your family the best of luck. You'll need it with some family in.... and some out. We left in about '87 ourselves and as I hear it, TWI had gotten so much more controlling after we left.
Hey! I've got a question for you! Does TWI still teach "Mark and Avoid" as doctrine towards those who have left? You see.. they started that M & A thingee after we had already left!
Sudo, in the later years all you had was TWI folks. You couldn't talk to family who weren't "in" and you sure as heck didn't have any friends who "rejected the word". If they didn't come to fellowship, then they weren't worth your time. :blink: So the only people you spent time with were TWI folks. You'd have to call someone in TWI if you wanted to do something fun because you didn't have any other friends to do things with.
I went to fellowship with some people and, while we weren't good enough friends to share deep dark secrets, we were still "friends". I also didn't talk to most of the people who left, but just a few I felt deserved to know. I would have expected someone who didn't know I was "gone" to call to check on me. It was only natural in the TWI we were in. Everyone and every little thing about our lives was monitored and so a phone call would be expected.
no joke....I asked about Bob Gelina Mock, becasue I saw Gelina crying ----after the LCM was an innocent victum of the devil....Allen lawsuit days...
Anyhow--I ask -- I get reamed for butting into someones business. I didnt ask them directly since I was not able to get to them....but poor Gelina was so heartbroken...and I never did find out why..I have some hypotheses, but ---THE POINT IS
I was accused of all kinds of crap just for being genuinely concerned.
Back in my days, which ended about 5 years ago, shortly after the LCM scandal people started leaving in droves. I sat at fellowship one night and one of my friends prayed for some other friends who had recently departed TWI. She was publicly reemed for praying for "cop-outs", cussing, swearing, the whole works. It got very ugly and my friend never went back to fellowhip after that night.
I cried when she left. She was the lsecond to ast friend I still had on the inside, and I knew what was coming. She was also the only person I knew, outside my family, that I trusted to babysit my little boys. My sister was unmarried and pregnant at the time and I was to be her coach. I couldn't leave my own baby's at home with my (now ex) as he was clueless as to how to take care of them (women's work). The original plan was that my friend would watch the kids while I was with my sister, but once she left TWI, I was forbidden from seeing her. I cannot tell you how much it ripped me apart to lose her, but I was faced with losing her friendship or losing my marriage (I didn't really care about losing TWI at that point beyond trying to keep my marriage intact).
When I left TWI, which was the following fall, only one person stayed in touch with me. She too left shortly after I did.
I have run into "innies" from time to time at school events for my kids. The ONLY reason they spoke to me was because I approached them first, and their discomfort was obvious.
A week ago I ran into a girl I knew from TWI who is still in. The last time I had seen her was after I left TWI, in a college class we somehow ended up in together. She dropped the class and from what my ex said, went into quite the rant about how discusted she was with me for being so happy given my departure from TWI and subsequent divorce.
So anyway, last week I ran into her again for the first time in quite a few years. She gave me the spiel about the kinder gentler ministry (I felt like I was being witnessed to). But I figure, you wanna be my friend, then be my friend regardless of whether or not I ever attend fellowship. Wanna bet on whether or not she gives me a call to go hang out, unless of course it is at a fellowship meeting?
You had already called the folks you were close to, right? So these others who didn't call... ya'll weren't particularly close to anyways? Right? Wrongo!
Actually we told those who we thought could handle it.
I don't know if <B>*I*</B> would have called you up either if I didn't know you that well.
Well, *I* extend brotherly love to ANYONE in my fellowship. Try to remember Sudo, TWI may BE a religion, but fellowships are SMALL. We are talking 20 people here. Not a whole congregation.
I don't think I've EVER called up someone who left our church and asked them what was up.
Why? It doesn't mean you call up EVERYONE, unless that is your ministry. Again, doensn't really apply to the Twig setup.
If Carol and I had been close to them we already knew what was going on.
That is you. Most go through silent hell no matter "how close" to someone they were. Your best friend, even spouses turn on you. That did happen in our family. One spouse left, the other said NO.
We left in about '87 ourselves and as I hear it, TWI had gotten so much more controlling after we left.
Exactly. Way more.
Hey! I've got a question for you! Does TWI still teach "Mark and Avoid" as doctrine towards those who have left? You see.. they started that M & A thingee after we had already left!
<center>sudo</center>
They do not "teach" it as of yet because of all the negative impact it has had. But nevertheless, it still "applies" in the hearts and minds of those around in the day.
which again, brings me to the point.....*I* don't NEED to have them call me to feel missed, or something. My point is that if they are teaching love, than it would be a natural response to call.
You don't understand what it was and is like for folks to leave the ministry and think you can just "tell all" to people. It is way too much.
People need to come to their own decisions to leave because they see something missing.....etc....
Otherwise, I am a cult. And I don't need anyone following me!
We had Branch Coordinators years ago, going through a "private hell". In ALL Ways of their life.
We considered ourselves "VERY GOOD FRIENDS".
Yet, they never came to us for help, WE WERE BELOW THEM on the food chain.
Ends up, they leave the ministry one day, divorced, and all.
I wanted to call THAT DAY, but being so confused and hurt and (in the screaming 90's), I did what every good little wayfer does.....I called the Region Coord, to share my heart.
I told him I wanted to call. He said NO. That if HE couldn 't ''save" them, I sure couldn't.
Fast forward 1 year later, this same BC is depressed beyond beleif, and crying for help and calls us.
He was so hurt that nobody would reach out and call.
I was so mad at myself. I should of called and said, what is up?
What can I do to help? If you need me, I am there. We are your friends no matter what.
But, that is not how it operated in those days......................................
That BC who called you after a year... Did ya'll start up the friendship again? Or at least do a lot of talking on the phone? What happened to the guy?
He was a disaster, his life 180 than he ever thought it would go, custody battles you name it.
Bottom line, the Way Corps was too much for their marriage, so because of all the "legalism" and EVERYTHING else........... they had to deal with on a daily basis.........................they were torn apart.
Yes, we did start talking again after he contacted us. Tons of talking. It was heart wrenching for us cuz he seemed on the brink of suicide. So with God and help he got himself out of a lot of trouble, tried to pick up the peices, starting with moving away from the area.
We still keep in touch, and he loves what he does, and is getting remarried.
Hey I have to tell you I have just went back to fellowship and it is a youth fellowship run by college kids and it is very great. I have been going back for a few months now and I have even been to branch meetings. Not even the bc asked me any questions about my family leaving (which suprised me greatly and was a sigh of relief). I am very comfortable there and I am excited to be apart of a fellowship that has youthfull leaders who were raised through all the though times(there words not mine) yet still stand on the biblical truths that have been taught. I asked the fc how he can say that and still be running a fellowship and he said " It is the truth that sets men free and I am here to teach the truth and not legalism. It is our generations time to pick up the dropped ball and continue holding forth the word that is rightly devided. This is our fellowship and it is self governing and we watch over it like a child is watched over by its father." He told me that fellowships are not micromanaged (I never was old enough to experience them being that so Im taking his word for it). But we had a at length discussion and it was very tender and honest. I thought I would share that with people.
Hey I have to tell you I have just went back to fellowship and it is a youth fellowship run by college kids and it is very great. I have been going back for a few months now and I have even been to branch meetings. Not even the bc asked me any questions about my family leaving (which suprised me greatly and was a sigh of relief). I am very comfortable there and I am excited to be apart of a fellowship that has youthfull leaders who were raised through all the though times(there words not mine) yet still stand on the biblical truths that have been taught. I asked the fc how he can say that and still be running a fellowship and he said " It is the truth that sets men free and I am here to teach the truth and not legalism. It is our generations time to pick up the dropped ball and continue holding forth the word that is rightly devided. This is our fellowship and it is self governing and we watch over it like a child is watched over by its father." He told me that fellowships are not micromanaged (I never was old enough to experience them being that so Im taking his word for it). But we had a at length discussion and it was very tender and honest. I thought I would share that with people.
Thanks RG
Well, good for you Ricky!!!!! I am sure that a college fellowship would, by nature, be a lot more independent than a normal (family type) fellowship. I sincerely hope that it continues to be as much of a blessing for you in the future as you report right now.
If you read my posts, you know that I don't even come close to agreeing with TWI doctrine anymore, but, hey, if it works for you, then more power to you. (I post a lot of controversial stuff in doctrine and would be happy to have your input on any of the subjects to which I've contributed btw)
I'd hope you keep posting and encourage the other members of your fellowship to read and post, as well. Speaking from the perspective of somebody who has gone back to the Catholic Church, I have to hear no end of crap from people when matters of faith and my Church come up, but with that exception, even though I am the token representative of the whore of Babylon, we are all able to get on just fine. If you, and perhaps some of your folks, have a thick enough skin to endure taking crap off of people like me, you may be able to get some accurate, up-to-date information of what is going on now, at least in your fellowship. I, for one, would enjoy the interchange.
Hey I have to tell you I have just went back to fellowship and it is a youth fellowship run by college kids and it is very great. I have been going back for a few months now and I have even been to branch meetings.
Congrats.
However, if you're college-age NOW,
and left BEFORE,
then you really weren't privy to why you "left".
Having been back a few months, I'd hold off judgement that you're fully up
on what's happening. A lot of people missed OBVIOUS stuff for a few months.
Not even the bc asked me any questions about my family leaving (which suprised me greatly and was a sigh of relief).
The moment they do, start making a tally of the dates they begin
inquiring to all your personal business. The sheet will fill up-first slowly,
then quickly.
I am very comfortable there and I am excited to be apart of a fellowship that has youthfull leaders who were raised through all the though times(there words not mine) yet still stand on the biblical truths that have been taught.
Of course that's their words. We recognize the "canned responses." They're not
ALLOWED to come up with their own ideas in their own terminology.
BTW,
those kids are no different from other kids who were just as Christian, but whose
parents were kicked out for asking questions, or left when oaths of loyalty-to MEN- were
DEMANDED. What they WERE raised through was
"don't ask questions,
pretend everything is fine
bad things happened? It's your fault for not believing enough"
That's a DEFICIENT education.
I asked the fc how he can say that and still be running a fellowship and he said " It is the truth that sets men free and I am here to teach the truth and not legalism. It is our generations time to pick up the dropped ball and continue holding forth the word that is rightly devided.
He's fit in more cliches accidentally than I can when I TRY.
"The truth?"
The truth was always HIDDEN from twi members-and STILL IS.
"Not Legalism?"
The rules and regulations of twi are FAR more confining than in any group
they ever criticized, starting with the required tithe.
You know vpw taught AGAINST the tithe when he first started out,
but when the money was sent to HIM, he wrote a book about its necessity?
"Pick up the dropped ball"-
twi had a bunch of truths carefully taken from REAL Christians, then were
assembled by vpw who claimed God revealed them to HIM and not anyone
else. Further, although it wasn't perfect (no man-or men's-work is, but
this was supposedly close to perfect since it was from God-and of course
it has errors. Try telling that to leadership and you'll be kicked out for it
like all the others who tried were. One guy was fired for saying adultery
was bad, and a paper saying it was was claimed to have devils attached
to it.
twi never HAD "the ball", let alone DROPPED it.
vpw showed some footage of some great teams, and said he led them
to victory.
"continue holding forth the Word that is rightly-divided."
Errors in twi doctrine are not allowed to be challenged.
That's why some of us were easily able to compile a PARTIAL list.
Furthermore, the nonexistence of any REAL research team means that
either the SAME stuff is REtaught, or new errors are introduced-
like lcm claiming that "original sin" was some sort of homosexual act
between Eve and Satan, with Adam making it some sort of 3-way.
Oh-and they're STILL teaching that "rightly-divided" piece of fluff.
If he was confident that twi really DID have "the best"-he'd do what I did
when I was IN and honestly compare it to what was OUTSIDE of twi.
As it now stands, other Christians FAR outpace them-Christians who've never
heard of twi nor vpw.
This is our fellowship and it is self governing and we watch over it like a child is watched over by its father." He told me that fellowships are not micromanaged (I never was old enough to experience them being that so Im taking his word for it). But we had a at length discussion and it was very tender and honest. I thought I would share that with people.
Just wait.
If it's not micromanaged NOW, then it will be LATER.
That's been the entire HISTORY of twi.
People joined when it was free, then left when rules strangled them slowly.
Hey thanks for the respnse. I really appreciate it!. I went back to fellowship because I tried other groups and they just didnt have any answers for me. I was with my family on staff when they chose to leave so true I was not of age to know every detail of the transgressions of Way leadership. Yet I was old enough and taught well enough to be objective and weigh truth from error. I couldnt not go to anymore college ministries. I want to manifest at meetings you know? I was asked my third fellowship back to give a word of P! The FC just looked at me and asked you can SIT and interperet cant you? Then you can believe to give a word of P. That is why I went back. And many other things i cannot describe in a short post. I just believed it was time for me. Thank you for your support.
Ps. If any people on GS Cafe are people with hurt hearts still yet still will at times have a desire or even a curiosity to see what it would be like back, I encourage you to try it out.
I will end this post with a reverse quote. On another website there was a picture of a billboard that was paid for by ex-followers that read something like "YOUR CONCERNS ARE REAL! MANY HAVE LEFT AND ARE DOING FINE!"
I will end with "YOUR DESIRE IS GENUINE, MANY HAVE RETURNED AND ARE DOING FINE!"
The Way leaders who did so much dirt to my husband and I are STILL leaders in TWI. In fact, I heard one guy got promoted. Gosh, he must be a true spiritual leader!
Hubby and I were not the only people they messed with--these guys have left a trail of misery that goes back at least a decade.
To take myself back to that, or even worse, to take my children to that--would be unloving and irrepsonsible on my part. It would be like handing my kids over to abusers.
The 'rightly divided Word' can't possibly be worth that price.
Is what not my intention to insult anybodys experience. I just wanted to state that for me I was ready to go back. I understand that there are many who are not and may never be. But for me not to tell that I was and that I have experienced "love thy neighbor" in my return is my testimony. What are the majority of the people on GS looking for? Is it justice? I dont know if justice is ever going to be obtainable. i was reading great passages out of Amos and Malachi about Justice. I thought about those with their hearst hurt and prayed for them this morning. Then I read out of the New Testiment about Love thy neighbor. And I prayed for those who need to let the love of God rule in their heart (the leaders in TWI freinds at GS). It seems to be the great fogotten message of Christianity. Both by members of tWi and by GS and most fundamental Christian churches. You cannot talk about Judiasm without talking about justice, in same form you cannot mention Christ with out talking about love sooner or later. Just things to think about.
Rickyg--I am too old to go to a cool college fellowship. The fellowship I would be directed to would be a normal one.
Hubby and I have a 'history' in twi. We were fellowship coords, Adv class grags etc in the nineties who got in big trouble because of our 'believing.' When we left TWI we were publically slandered--every item we had been reproved or counseled about for a decade was vented and exagerated, we were Marked and avoided for being possessed, probably in such an extra nasty way because we were well liked by many people. Probably a dozen Innies in that branch/limb had been in our fellowship for several years--they knew us well. People remember that-- I know this because not too long ago I had a long conversation with an old friend, still in.
We would be watched for any sign of weakness or perceived weakness. We would have to go through counseling with the very leadership involved that did the smear job and who were so much into our business not that many years ago.There is NO Way they would be wrong in their assessment of our lives, we would always be the ones in the wrong, the ones who need to prove ourselves. That's how Way Leadership works.
We would not be 'fresh blood' like you are. No clean slate. We couldn't just slip into some sweet little fellowship.
Many people are in the same position with TWI as we are. If they desire to do Way doctrine, they find one of the off shoot ministires, like CFF.
Is what not my intention to insult anybodys experience.
[Well, that doesn't speak for everyone. If we went back, we'd face
a majority of people eager to insist that our experience was invalid.
Then again, one guy showed up and claimed that when vpw sexually
molested, raped and harassed women, it was to spiritually
"toughen them up". ]
I just wanted to state that for me I was ready to go back. I understand that there are many who are not and may never be. But for me not to tell that I was and that I have experienced "love thy neighbor" in my return is my testimony. What are the majority of the people on GS looking for? Is it justice? I dont know if justice is ever going to be obtainable.
[Well, a daily standard of miracles so that Paul in Acts had "special"/"not ordinary"
miracles is probably never going to be obtainable as well.
However, does that make the attempt no less necessary?]
i was reading great passages out of Amos and Malachi about Justice. I thought about those with their hearts hurt and prayed for them this morning. Then I read out of the New Testiment about Love thy neighbor. And I prayed for those who need to let the love of God rule in their heart (the leaders in TWI freinds at GS). It seems to be the great fogotten message of Christianity. Both by members of tWi and by GS and most fundamental Christian churches.
[God's Love....a complicated topic. You've judged us here of forgetting it,
you've judged the majority of Christians of forgetting it.
I say you don't know either well enough to pass judgement-ESPECIALLY
other Christians. I've known some fine Christians who never heard of vpw or twi
who were so good, I forgot there are Christians outside twi who are narrowminded
and petty. (twi doesn't have a monopoly on THEM, either.)
You've seen us speak out against injustices, and said we lack God's Love.
Can't you see how faulty that thinking is?]
You cannot talk about Judiasm without talking about justice, in same form you cannot mention Christ with out talking about love sooner or later. Just things to think about.
[Pssst.
Many of us are still happily Christian.
Most Christians outside of twi actually spend time in the Gospels.
Without trying to push twi doctrines, I mean.
The love of CHRIST is a regular issue among them as well.]
I was not attempting to be inclusinve in my categorization of Christians. Every person is different with different experiences. I didn not say ever that Christians who communicate on GS are without love. I never said that you put words into my mouth. I said I prayed for the hurt hearts of those who were hurt and I prayed for those who have a lack of love (talking about TWI if you didnt get my point). I was just trying to share my experience. And I realize that not everybody can go to a "cool" college fellowship. Not everybody here who have a desire to check out a fellowship would even want to go to a college fellowship.
ps. I am not "fresh blood" or "fresh money" or any other label of speculative nature that you may precieve the fellowship to precieve me as.
My fresh blood comment was in the nature that you, going to a TWI fellowship, are not a whole lot different than new, never been Way person going to a fellowship. You would be very welcome.
Did you have to wait for a corps leader to approve you to go back to a fellowship, Rickyg? No? That right there puts you in a different category of returnee than many here would face. You are far more welcome, you are not perceived as a 'problem' believer. Most of us could not just show up at a fellowship and be welcome. There would be phone calls, meetings...there would be a whole different attitude than what you have faced. Far less welcoming.
I wonder if it would be so easy for your parents to return to a fellowship?
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Sudo
Bliss,
So... when you two left, did you call any of your TWI friends to tell them you were leaving? It doesn't sound like it. It sounds like you were waiting on them to call YOU. No? How long had you guys been in?
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moony3424
I'm so glad that you made the decision. I know that when you first came here
you hadn't made the final decision yet. And hubby left too? Wonderful that you two could leave together.What about your inlaws?
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bliss
Dearest Sudo,
Of course we called the ones we "hung with". That was hard enough! One couple refused to listen to any more than a "little" of what we had to say. These are folks that we "had beers with".
Another couple was "All Ears" because they were READY to hear it.
The rest, No we didn't feel it was our place to call and ruffle feathers.
My point was to show that "if things have changed"....then they WOULD have called and checked on us. It is only natural when you care about someone to wonder what happens when you disappear or there is negative talk. But, that is my point.
It has not changed, considering all the rhetoric.
We were in FOREVER.BTW
and Mooney........what are you tracking me? LOL
They were informed last month.........................................it was brushed under the rug, they don't want to discuss......
At least they aren't mark and avoiding us.........I hope.
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frank123lol
1Rst glad you had the courage to get the heck out.
2.Where does the so called one and only ones with the truth go around speaking curses?
3.I for one wish no evil on them,if they wish evil or speak evil about me that is thier problem
4.I speak to the "holders of the only truth" once in a while,as my wife goes to fellowship once in a great
while.Is it hard on me?you bet but I can deal with it,though it does suck
5.After being "out" a few years,and yes thanks to greasespot,they the "only holders of the truth"will be held accountable the same as the rest of us
Finally it is nice to be out of thier sphere of influence.Also bad things do happen to people,the twi,as well as everyone else.
Oh high and mighty fellowship cowhatsis(co-ordinator) get a life you aint no different than the rest of us,remember we were all made the same in gods eyes? So give it a rest.
The saying "holders of the only truth" if of course sarcastic,as did not the son on god ask what is truth.
Directly to the way twi::let your people talk to whoever they want to it aint any of your freaking buisness
You are a freaking control ministry,no wonder no signs and wonders,freaking let god be god and quit playing god
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Sudo
Bliss,
Re:"My point was to show that "if things have changed"....then they WOULD have called and checked on us."
You had already called the folks you were close to, right? So these others who didn't call... ya'll weren't particularly close to anyways? Right? I don't know if *I* would have called you up either if I didn't know you that well. The same thing goes on in churches, 'ya know. I don't think I've EVER called up someone who left our church and asked them what was up. If Carol and I had been close to them we already knew what was going on.
Bliss... I know this is a stressful time for you and I'm not wanting to make things difficult or confrontational here for you. I wish you and your family the best of luck. You'll need it with some family in.... and some out. We left in about '87 ourselves and as I hear it, TWI had gotten so much more controlling after we left.
Hey! I've got a question for you! Does TWI still teach "Mark and Avoid" as doctrine towards those who have left? You see.. they started that M & A thingee after we had already left!
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Belle
Sudo, in the later years all you had was TWI folks. You couldn't talk to family who weren't "in" and you sure as heck didn't have any friends who "rejected the word". If they didn't come to fellowship, then they weren't worth your time. :blink: So the only people you spent time with were TWI folks. You'd have to call someone in TWI if you wanted to do something fun because you didn't have any other friends to do things with.
I went to fellowship with some people and, while we weren't good enough friends to share deep dark secrets, we were still "friends". I also didn't talk to most of the people who left, but just a few I felt deserved to know. I would have expected someone who didn't know I was "gone" to call to check on me. It was only natural in the TWI we were in. Everyone and every little thing about our lives was monitored and so a phone call would be expected.
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DaddyHoundog
no joke....I asked about Bob Gelina Mock, becasue I saw Gelina crying ----after the LCM was an innocent victum of the devil....Allen lawsuit days...
Anyhow--I ask -- I get reamed for butting into someones business. I didnt ask them directly since I was not able to get to them....but poor Gelina was so heartbroken...and I never did find out why..I have some hypotheses, but ---THE POINT IS
I was accused of all kinds of crap just for being genuinely concerned.
Lianne
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excathedra
(((((((( bliss and mr. bliss ))))))))
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Abigail
Sudo,
Back in my days, which ended about 5 years ago, shortly after the LCM scandal people started leaving in droves. I sat at fellowship one night and one of my friends prayed for some other friends who had recently departed TWI. She was publicly reemed for praying for "cop-outs", cussing, swearing, the whole works. It got very ugly and my friend never went back to fellowhip after that night.
I cried when she left. She was the lsecond to ast friend I still had on the inside, and I knew what was coming. She was also the only person I knew, outside my family, that I trusted to babysit my little boys. My sister was unmarried and pregnant at the time and I was to be her coach. I couldn't leave my own baby's at home with my (now ex) as he was clueless as to how to take care of them (women's work). The original plan was that my friend would watch the kids while I was with my sister, but once she left TWI, I was forbidden from seeing her. I cannot tell you how much it ripped me apart to lose her, but I was faced with losing her friendship or losing my marriage (I didn't really care about losing TWI at that point beyond trying to keep my marriage intact).
When I left TWI, which was the following fall, only one person stayed in touch with me. She too left shortly after I did.
I have run into "innies" from time to time at school events for my kids. The ONLY reason they spoke to me was because I approached them first, and their discomfort was obvious.
A week ago I ran into a girl I knew from TWI who is still in. The last time I had seen her was after I left TWI, in a college class we somehow ended up in together. She dropped the class and from what my ex said, went into quite the rant about how discusted she was with me for being so happy given my departure from TWI and subsequent divorce.
So anyway, last week I ran into her again for the first time in quite a few years. She gave me the spiel about the kinder gentler ministry (I felt like I was being witnessed to). But I figure, you wanna be my friend, then be my friend regardless of whether or not I ever attend fellowship. Wanna bet on whether or not she gives me a call to go hang out, unless of course it is at a fellowship meeting?
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bliss
You had already called the folks you were close to, right? So these others who didn't call... ya'll weren't particularly close to anyways? Right? Wrongo!
Actually we told those who we thought could handle it.
I don't know if <B>*I*</B> would have called you up either if I didn't know you that well.
Well, *I* extend brotherly love to ANYONE in my fellowship. Try to remember Sudo, TWI may BE a religion, but fellowships are SMALL. We are talking 20 people here. Not a whole congregation.
I don't think I've EVER called up someone who left our church and asked them what was up.
Why? It doesn't mean you call up EVERYONE, unless that is your ministry. Again, doensn't really apply to the Twig setup.
If Carol and I had been close to them we already knew what was going on.
That is you. Most go through silent hell no matter "how close" to someone they were. Your best friend, even spouses turn on you. That did happen in our family. One spouse left, the other said NO.
We left in about '87 ourselves and as I hear it, TWI had gotten so much more controlling after we left.
Exactly. Way more.
Hey! I've got a question for you! Does TWI still teach "Mark and Avoid" as doctrine towards those who have left? You see.. they started that M & A thingee after we had already left!
<center>sudo</center>
They do not "teach" it as of yet because of all the negative impact it has had. But nevertheless, it still "applies" in the hearts and minds of those around in the day.
which again, brings me to the point.....*I* don't NEED to have them call me to feel missed, or something. My point is that if they are teaching love, than it would be a natural response to call.
You don't understand what it was and is like for folks to leave the ministry and think you can just "tell all" to people. It is way too much.
People need to come to their own decisions to leave because they see something missing.....etc....
Otherwise, I am a cult. And I don't need anyone following me!
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bliss
Which this brings up another point.......
We had Branch Coordinators years ago, going through a "private hell". In ALL Ways of their life.
We considered ourselves "VERY GOOD FRIENDS".
Yet, they never came to us for help, WE WERE BELOW THEM on the food chain.
Ends up, they leave the ministry one day, divorced, and all.
I wanted to call THAT DAY, but being so confused and hurt and (in the screaming 90's), I did what every good little wayfer does.....I called the Region Coord, to share my heart.
I told him I wanted to call. He said NO. That if HE couldn 't ''save" them, I sure couldn't.
Fast forward 1 year later, this same BC is depressed beyond beleif, and crying for help and calls us.
He was so hurt that nobody would reach out and call.
I was so mad at myself. I should of called and said, what is up?
What can I do to help? If you need me, I am there. We are your friends no matter what.
But, that is not how it operated in those days......................................
and obviously still carries over to this day.
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excathedra
that's heartbreaking
we are all regular people and the way made it impossible to be so
i thank god now for friendship without a hierarchy
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Sudo
Bliss,
That BC who called you after a year... Did ya'll start up the friendship again? Or at least do a lot of talking on the phone? What happened to the guy?
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bliss
Well, without divulging too much................
He was a disaster, his life 180 than he ever thought it would go, custody battles you name it.
Bottom line, the Way Corps was too much for their marriage, so because of all the "legalism" and EVERYTHING else........... they had to deal with on a daily basis.........................they were torn apart.
Yes, we did start talking again after he contacted us. Tons of talking. It was heart wrenching for us cuz he seemed on the brink of suicide. So with God and help he got himself out of a lot of trouble, tried to pick up the peices, starting with moving away from the area.
We still keep in touch, and he loves what he does, and is getting remarried.
Can't say he left " the way" yet though.
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rickyg
Hey I have to tell you I have just went back to fellowship and it is a youth fellowship run by college kids and it is very great. I have been going back for a few months now and I have even been to branch meetings. Not even the bc asked me any questions about my family leaving (which suprised me greatly and was a sigh of relief). I am very comfortable there and I am excited to be apart of a fellowship that has youthfull leaders who were raised through all the though times(there words not mine) yet still stand on the biblical truths that have been taught. I asked the fc how he can say that and still be running a fellowship and he said " It is the truth that sets men free and I am here to teach the truth and not legalism. It is our generations time to pick up the dropped ball and continue holding forth the word that is rightly devided. This is our fellowship and it is self governing and we watch over it like a child is watched over by its father." He told me that fellowships are not micromanaged (I never was old enough to experience them being that so Im taking his word for it). But we had a at length discussion and it was very tender and honest. I thought I would share that with people.
Thanks RG
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markomalley
Well, good for you Ricky!!!!! I am sure that a college fellowship would, by nature, be a lot more independent than a normal (family type) fellowship. I sincerely hope that it continues to be as much of a blessing for you in the future as you report right now.
If you read my posts, you know that I don't even come close to agreeing with TWI doctrine anymore, but, hey, if it works for you, then more power to you. (I post a lot of controversial stuff in doctrine and would be happy to have your input on any of the subjects to which I've contributed btw)
I'd hope you keep posting and encourage the other members of your fellowship to read and post, as well. Speaking from the perspective of somebody who has gone back to the Catholic Church, I have to hear no end of crap from people when matters of faith and my Church come up, but with that exception, even though I am the token representative of the whore of Babylon, we are all able to get on just fine. If you, and perhaps some of your folks, have a thick enough skin to endure taking crap off of people like me, you may be able to get some accurate, up-to-date information of what is going on now, at least in your fellowship. I, for one, would enjoy the interchange.
Look forward to hearing from you!
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WordWolf
Congrats.
However, if you're college-age NOW,
and left BEFORE,
then you really weren't privy to why you "left".
Having been back a few months, I'd hold off judgement that you're fully up
on what's happening. A lot of people missed OBVIOUS stuff for a few months.
The moment they do, start making a tally of the dates they begininquiring to all your personal business. The sheet will fill up-first slowly,
then quickly.
Of course that's their words. We recognize the "canned responses." They're not
ALLOWED to come up with their own ideas in their own terminology.
BTW,
those kids are no different from other kids who were just as Christian, but whose
parents were kicked out for asking questions, or left when oaths of loyalty-to MEN- were
DEMANDED. What they WERE raised through was
"don't ask questions,
pretend everything is fine
bad things happened? It's your fault for not believing enough"
That's a DEFICIENT education.
He's fit in more cliches accidentally than I can when I TRY."The truth?"
The truth was always HIDDEN from twi members-and STILL IS.
"Not Legalism?"
The rules and regulations of twi are FAR more confining than in any group
they ever criticized, starting with the required tithe.
You know vpw taught AGAINST the tithe when he first started out,
but when the money was sent to HIM, he wrote a book about its necessity?
"Pick up the dropped ball"-
twi had a bunch of truths carefully taken from REAL Christians, then were
assembled by vpw who claimed God revealed them to HIM and not anyone
else. Further, although it wasn't perfect (no man-or men's-work is, but
this was supposedly close to perfect since it was from God-and of course
it has errors. Try telling that to leadership and you'll be kicked out for it
like all the others who tried were. One guy was fired for saying adultery
was bad, and a paper saying it was was claimed to have devils attached
to it.
twi never HAD "the ball", let alone DROPPED it.
vpw showed some footage of some great teams, and said he led them
to victory.
"continue holding forth the Word that is rightly-divided."
Errors in twi doctrine are not allowed to be challenged.
That's why some of us were easily able to compile a PARTIAL list.
Furthermore, the nonexistence of any REAL research team means that
either the SAME stuff is REtaught, or new errors are introduced-
like lcm claiming that "original sin" was some sort of homosexual act
between Eve and Satan, with Adam making it some sort of 3-way.
Oh-and they're STILL teaching that "rightly-divided" piece of fluff.
If he was confident that twi really DID have "the best"-he'd do what I did
when I was IN and honestly compare it to what was OUTSIDE of twi.
As it now stands, other Christians FAR outpace them-Christians who've never
heard of twi nor vpw.
Just wait.
If it's not micromanaged NOW, then it will be LATER.
That's been the entire HISTORY of twi.
People joined when it was free, then left when rules strangled them slowly.
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rickyg
Hey thanks for the respnse. I really appreciate it!. I went back to fellowship because I tried other groups and they just didnt have any answers for me. I was with my family on staff when they chose to leave so true I was not of age to know every detail of the transgressions of Way leadership. Yet I was old enough and taught well enough to be objective and weigh truth from error. I couldnt not go to anymore college ministries. I want to manifest at meetings you know? I was asked my third fellowship back to give a word of P! The FC just looked at me and asked you can SIT and interperet cant you? Then you can believe to give a word of P. That is why I went back. And many other things i cannot describe in a short post. I just believed it was time for me. Thank you for your support.
Ps. If any people on GS Cafe are people with hurt hearts still yet still will at times have a desire or even a curiosity to see what it would be like back, I encourage you to try it out.
I will end this post with a reverse quote. On another website there was a picture of a billboard that was paid for by ex-followers that read something like "YOUR CONCERNS ARE REAL! MANY HAVE LEFT AND ARE DOING FINE!"
I will end with "YOUR DESIRE IS GENUINE, MANY HAVE RETURNED AND ARE DOING FINE!"
RG
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Bramble
The Way leaders who did so much dirt to my husband and I are STILL leaders in TWI. In fact, I heard one guy got promoted. Gosh, he must be a true spiritual leader!
Hubby and I were not the only people they messed with--these guys have left a trail of misery that goes back at least a decade.
To take myself back to that, or even worse, to take my children to that--would be unloving and irrepsonsible on my part. It would be like handing my kids over to abusers.
The 'rightly divided Word' can't possibly be worth that price.
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rickyg
Is what not my intention to insult anybodys experience. I just wanted to state that for me I was ready to go back. I understand that there are many who are not and may never be. But for me not to tell that I was and that I have experienced "love thy neighbor" in my return is my testimony. What are the majority of the people on GS looking for? Is it justice? I dont know if justice is ever going to be obtainable. i was reading great passages out of Amos and Malachi about Justice. I thought about those with their hearst hurt and prayed for them this morning. Then I read out of the New Testiment about Love thy neighbor. And I prayed for those who need to let the love of God rule in their heart (the leaders in TWI freinds at GS). It seems to be the great fogotten message of Christianity. Both by members of tWi and by GS and most fundamental Christian churches. You cannot talk about Judiasm without talking about justice, in same form you cannot mention Christ with out talking about love sooner or later. Just things to think about.
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Bramble
Rickyg--I am too old to go to a cool college fellowship. The fellowship I would be directed to would be a normal one.
Hubby and I have a 'history' in twi. We were fellowship coords, Adv class grags etc in the nineties who got in big trouble because of our 'believing.' When we left TWI we were publically slandered--every item we had been reproved or counseled about for a decade was vented and exagerated, we were Marked and avoided for being possessed, probably in such an extra nasty way because we were well liked by many people. Probably a dozen Innies in that branch/limb had been in our fellowship for several years--they knew us well. People remember that-- I know this because not too long ago I had a long conversation with an old friend, still in.
We would be watched for any sign of weakness or perceived weakness. We would have to go through counseling with the very leadership involved that did the smear job and who were so much into our business not that many years ago.There is NO Way they would be wrong in their assessment of our lives, we would always be the ones in the wrong, the ones who need to prove ourselves. That's how Way Leadership works.
We would not be 'fresh blood' like you are. No clean slate. We couldn't just slip into some sweet little fellowship.
Many people are in the same position with TWI as we are. If they desire to do Way doctrine, they find one of the off shoot ministires, like CFF.
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WordWolf
[WordWolf in brackets and boldface again.]
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rickyg
Wordwolf,
I was not attempting to be inclusinve in my categorization of Christians. Every person is different with different experiences. I didn not say ever that Christians who communicate on GS are without love. I never said that you put words into my mouth. I said I prayed for the hurt hearts of those who were hurt and I prayed for those who have a lack of love (talking about TWI if you didnt get my point). I was just trying to share my experience. And I realize that not everybody can go to a "cool" college fellowship. Not everybody here who have a desire to check out a fellowship would even want to go to a college fellowship.
ps. I am not "fresh blood" or "fresh money" or any other label of speculative nature that you may precieve the fellowship to precieve me as.
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Bramble
My fresh blood comment was in the nature that you, going to a TWI fellowship, are not a whole lot different than new, never been Way person going to a fellowship. You would be very welcome.
Did you have to wait for a corps leader to approve you to go back to a fellowship, Rickyg? No? That right there puts you in a different category of returnee than many here would face. You are far more welcome, you are not perceived as a 'problem' believer. Most of us could not just show up at a fellowship and be welcome. There would be phone calls, meetings...there would be a whole different attitude than what you have faced. Far less welcoming.
I wonder if it would be so easy for your parents to return to a fellowship?
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