I think it's an awfully big assumption that Jesus, who knew this was his mission and knew what was to come next, FELT forsaken. The Bible says he endured the cross "for the joy that was set before him."
Why would Jesus accuse God falsely of forsaking him?
Makes more sense that he was quoting a known scripture to bring attention to his identity.
Also makes more sense to move this whole thing to doctrinal, no?
So, Oldiesman, do you think TWI is right about how that verse should be translated in the gospels, or do you think STFI is right? Just curious. STFI rejected what Wierwille said about "My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?" Their explanation is that God did not forsake Jesus, and that Jesus was not accusing God of such a thing. You (mistakenly?) give the impression that STFI and VP were in agreement on the subject.
I met a guy about 13 years ago who was a Messianic jew who had transalted a chunk of Matthew from Aramaic. We told him that we had been involved with TWI. He was familiar with them and the work on the Pes hitta text and was impressed. i dont remember if he was familiar with Lamsa's work though.
I believe that those 3 psalms do point to Jesus's life. God did not have to forsake Jesus for him to make that quote. The way I heard it - those 3 psalms were known and sung constantly - like a Beetles tune. The "forsake" quote was about David - but when Jesus started with that line the rest of those songs were "sung" in everyone's minds - and they SAW them living (and dying) before their eyes. Perhaps many of these in the crowd ended up believing in later years.
So, Oldiesman, do you think TWI is right about how that verse should be translated in the gospels, or do you think STFI is right? Just curious. STFI rejected what Wierwille said about "My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?" Their explanation is that God did not forsake Jesus, and that Jesus was not accusing God of such a thing. You (mistakenly?) give the impression that STFI and VP were in agreement on the subject.
They were in full agreement that God did not forsake Jesus, and STFI adds more from there.
If VP missed the idea that Jesus was actually quoting from Psalm 22, and if Jesus actually was, then VP missed it. Nobody really knows for sure.
STFI's teaching is compelling, but even STFI says that shabak can be translated "reserved" or "kept" which is what VP taught.
The main point, I believe, is that God did not forsake Jesus, and we readily see that from other scriptures, from what subsequently happens after, and from good old common sense.
The main point, I believe, is that God did not forsake Jesus, and we readily see that from other scriptures, from what subsequently happens after, and from good old common sense.
No one ever said GOD forsook Jesus
We are talking Christ's perspective here
He was dying
He had never experienced Dying
He had Always had God's Spirit with Him
Now God's Spirit was departing
Why was Gods Spirit departing?? because he was dying
Of course Jesus felt God Forsaking Him
Because God's Spirit was-it was leaving the dying Body of Christ.
In order to believe this didn't happen you would have to believe that Christ didn't die in the way we die -rather Jesus entered some sort of suspended animation where he was dead but not really dead because God's Spirit never left Him
And if that is the case then Jesus didn't break the bonds of death because he never experienced death as the rest of mankind does
Actually, Mo, what I am saying is not only that God did not forsake Jesus, but that Jesus never felt that God forsook him. If indeed he was quoting a scripture, then his reason for calling out those words goes beyond the words themselves. If ANYONE knew that God would never, ever forsake Jesus, it would be Jesus.
There is difference between God turning his back on Jesus which we and Jesus knew would never happen
And God's Spirit Leaving--Forsaking -his physical body
They are apples and oranges
Two entirely different things
Jesus was talking about the trees if you will--The spirit leaving his physical body
as opposed to the forest --He being God's only begotten
For some reason, we choose to think that Jesus was above the reality of what it is to experience intense physical pain.
We have a Jesus who was emotional and physically at the end of his bodies strength In excruciating pain, dying, MORTAL, and we are asked to believe that he was pondering the esoteric in his situation--NOT
The problem . I believe , stems at the core of whether you believe that
1) Jesus and Heavenly Father are one and the same or
2) that you believe that Jesus was still God while on earth--He wasn't he was mortal He surrendered his divinity -and became as we are. There would have been no purpose otherwise-TO live a perfect life while still being divine goes without saying--to live a perfect life while being not-divine, as we are and exhorted to do, is another thing entirely. Christ on the Cross was human , as we are, and he responded as a human to the physical realities of dying
It's not "asking someone to believe he was pondering the esoteric" if, in fact, he did quote scripture while he was hanging there. I believe he was pondering the scripture he quoted, a reasonable belief considering he quoted a scripture. I do not believe God forsook him, I do not believe he believed God forsook him, and I do not believe it was a cry of anguish from someone going through intense physical pain. He managed to say seven different things on the cross, despite the pain he was enduring and had endured. It doesn't strike me as odd at all to suggest that a man who quoted a scripture was thinking about that scripture at the time.
Raf, this is from someone who is not conviced that Jesus even existed, so give it whatever weight you think it deserves.
Assuming the Bible accounts to be true, Jesus said seven things that were recorded for posterity but may very well have said much more. Since anything else he may have said that day is unknown, that might not be important, but I think the possibility (liklihood, IMHO) is at least worth mentioning.
I agree that the Gospels indicate that Jesus was quoting scripture, possibly more that what is quoted, up to and beyond the entire Psalm. It seems to me that there could be two (not mutually exclusive) reasons. One would be for his own benefit, that being to support his own faith in a time of great challenge (to put it lightly). Another would be to use the event of his crucifixion to "witness" to the onlookers. Either, IMHO, is more likely than that he thought that God had forsaken him.
I'm not a believer, but to me it seems that the Bible suggests one or both of two things: Jesus quoted scripture to strengthen his own faith, or to direct his audience to the scriptures. Either way, it was neither a cry of triumph nor a cry of defeat.
I meant that it wasn't a cry of triumph in the sense in which Wiewille presented it. In the sense it appears you understand it, perhaps it could be considered a cry of triumph.
I meant that it wasn't a cry of triumph in the sense in which Wiewille presented it. In the sense it appears you understand it, perhaps it could be considered a cry of triumph.
Docvic had it wrong. And since I am the one who posted the link to the
CES/STFI article, let me add my perspective, if I may.
Jesus Christ (in his dying moments) was trying to tell the assembly there at the cross
(the ekklesia????) WHO HE WAS -- one final time.
Simple as that. For anyone to say *God forsook Him*, or *For this purpose I was spared*,
(imho) flies in the face of who Jesus Christ was, and what He did.
He was about others, not Himself.
He was always reaching out.
He was all about giving vs receiving.
He was *other's* focused, not *self* focused.
He was friend to the friendless.
He was the one who could have condemned, yet refrained.
By quoting the first line and the last line of that trilogy,
He was making one last attempt to REACH OUT.
Reaching out to those in attendance, and saying THINK!!
Quoting verses that would make the folks there at the scene
THINK ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING, AND WHAT WAS WRITTEN.
He had gone through (over) 40 hours of torture from Monday to Wednesday 9 am.
He wasn't even recognizable as a human being.
He must have looked like a slug crawling to the final site.
Yet He had the prescence of mind to do what He had always done ---
Preaching the Word one last time, reaching out to others.
Whether there was anguish or triumph in that *cry*,
neither you nor I know (nor will we), until that day that is coming.
Not a relevant question in my theology. A relevant question in Mormon theology, granted. That's why we disagree. Coffee?
Actually I'm not sure it is a relevant question in LDS theology
It is, however, a relevant question for me
Either Jesus Christ did what he said--and that including dying just like every other living thing on earth dies--and was resurrected by Heavenly Father
Or, it was a hoax and Jesus knew from the outset that he really wasn't going to DIE die
I suppose that becomes a bit more blurry if you hold to the belief system that Heavenly Father and Jesus are one and the same, then GOD dying would be impossible because if God REALLY died then who would resurrect HIM??? (my head aches just writing that sentence)
If you aren't Trinitarian I suppose It is hard because it brings Jesus to our level--which IMO is exactly what He did--but as a whole we seem to have trouble really believing that--hence again IMO all the excuses we make for blowing it "there was only one perfect man" etc while ignoring "be ye perfect as Christ was perfect"
As for the cup of coffee, I'll have to pass but i would be more than happy to sit at the cafe and have a strawberry lemonade and inhale the fumes from your cup (of all the things I miss , a steaming cup of coffee with cream and sugar first thing on a winter morn has got to be the hardest on some days)
Actually, I tend to agree with TempleLady here (even though I am trinitarian :)
First, I need to do more study on the sacrificial lamb that had all of Israel's sins put on it and was sent to wander the wilderness and die. I believe it was cursed, alone and forsaken. Christ was that lamb for us.
At the end of the psalm, when Christ says, "It is finished," he gave a loud cry and gave up his spirit (KJ says ghost, but I believe spirit is a better translation). He willingly gave up his spirit, as God's son, as the only human who ever comprehended him, as one who had been with God before, shared God's essence intimately, and had since the beginning, to purposely separate from this and give up his spirit, must have been agonizing.
Yes, I agree also he spoke the Word so people would know, this was truly him, but he was also the cursed lamb redeeming mankind. I believe the Psalm was appropriate to him, he was forsaken, he knew it, but it was something that must be done, but he knew, even in this condition, he would be entering into God's city. He would not be forsaken forever.
Either Jesus Christ did what he said--and that including dying just like every other living thing on earth dies--and was resurrected by Heavenly Father
Or, it was a hoax and Jesus knew from the outset that he really wasn't going to DIE die
I don't understand what you said here. You mean that Jesus didn't know that he would be resurrected?
Just asking, maybe I'm being a little slow here. :)
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Raf
I think it's an awfully big assumption that Jesus, who knew this was his mission and knew what was to come next, FELT forsaken. The Bible says he endured the cross "for the joy that was set before him."
Why would Jesus accuse God falsely of forsaking him?
Makes more sense that he was quoting a known scripture to bring attention to his identity.
Also makes more sense to move this whole thing to doctrinal, no?
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ex10
Yeah, Raf, I agree. Jesus had the inside track, even when nobody else did.
He knew what was going on. His concern was for those who didn't.
I have no opinion about moving threads to doctrinal. In fact, I like being able to say, "I have no opinion." :huh:
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doojable
I met a guy about 13 years ago who was a Messianic jew who had transalted a chunk of Matthew from Aramaic. We told him that we had been involved with TWI. He was familiar with them and the work on the Pes hitta text and was impressed. i dont remember if he was familiar with Lamsa's work though.
I believe that those 3 psalms do point to Jesus's life. God did not have to forsake Jesus for him to make that quote. The way I heard it - those 3 psalms were known and sung constantly - like a Beetles tune. The "forsake" quote was about David - but when Jesus started with that line the rest of those songs were "sung" in everyone's minds - and they SAW them living (and dying) before their eyes. Perhaps many of these in the crowd ended up believing in later years.
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dmiller
Far from proclaiming Himself *forsaken*, or *being spared*,
my humble opinion is that Jesus was saying in His last moments
the same thing He had said throughout His entire ministry.
IT IS WRITTEN!!
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markomalley
It should come as no shock, as Jesus is The Word
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oldiesman
They were in full agreement that God did not forsake Jesus, and STFI adds more from there.
If VP missed the idea that Jesus was actually quoting from Psalm 22, and if Jesus actually was, then VP missed it. Nobody really knows for sure.
STFI's teaching is compelling, but even STFI says that shabak can be translated "reserved" or "kept" which is what VP taught.
The main point, I believe, is that God did not forsake Jesus, and we readily see that from other scriptures, from what subsequently happens after, and from good old common sense.
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Raf
Thanks for clarifying.
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templelady
No one ever said GOD forsook Jesus
We are talking Christ's perspective here
He was dying
He had never experienced Dying
He had Always had God's Spirit with Him
Now God's Spirit was departing
Why was Gods Spirit departing?? because he was dying
Of course Jesus felt God Forsaking Him
Because God's Spirit was-it was leaving the dying Body of Christ.
In order to believe this didn't happen you would have to believe that Christ didn't die in the way we die -rather Jesus entered some sort of suspended animation where he was dead but not really dead because God's Spirit never left Him
And if that is the case then Jesus didn't break the bonds of death because he never experienced death as the rest of mankind does
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templelady
Or to put it in another light
THere was one thing VPW taught that actually made sense
And that was that Christ experienced every temptation we have as well as evrey trial involved in being human--
That being the case
He had to experience what it feels like not to have the Spirit of God in your life
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Raf
Actually, Mo, what I am saying is not only that God did not forsake Jesus, but that Jesus never felt that God forsook him. If indeed he was quoting a scripture, then his reason for calling out those words goes beyond the words themselves. If ANYONE knew that God would never, ever forsake Jesus, it would be Jesus.
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oldiesman
I totally agree.
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Raf
Then I must be wrong. :)
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templelady
ARRRGHHHHHHHHHHH (primal scream therapy
)
There is difference between God turning his back on Jesus which we and Jesus knew would never happen
And God's Spirit Leaving--Forsaking -his physical body
They are apples and oranges
Two entirely different things
Jesus was talking about the trees if you will--The spirit leaving his physical body
as opposed to the forest --He being God's only begotten
For some reason, we choose to think that Jesus was above the reality of what it is to experience intense physical pain.
We have a Jesus who was emotional and physically at the end of his bodies strength In excruciating pain, dying, MORTAL, and we are asked to believe that he was pondering the esoteric in his situation--NOT
The problem . I believe , stems at the core of whether you believe that
1) Jesus and Heavenly Father are one and the same or
2) that you believe that Jesus was still God while on earth--He wasn't he was mortal He surrendered his divinity -and became as we are. There would have been no purpose otherwise-TO live a perfect life while still being divine goes without saying--to live a perfect life while being not-divine, as we are and exhorted to do, is another thing entirely. Christ on the Cross was human , as we are, and he responded as a human to the physical realities of dying
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Raf
It's not "asking someone to believe he was pondering the esoteric" if, in fact, he did quote scripture while he was hanging there. I believe he was pondering the scripture he quoted, a reasonable belief considering he quoted a scripture. I do not believe God forsook him, I do not believe he believed God forsook him, and I do not believe it was a cry of anguish from someone going through intense physical pain. He managed to say seven different things on the cross, despite the pain he was enduring and had endured. It doesn't strike me as odd at all to suggest that a man who quoted a scripture was thinking about that scripture at the time.
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LG
Raf, this is from someone who is not conviced that Jesus even existed, so give it whatever weight you think it deserves.
Assuming the Bible accounts to be true, Jesus said seven things that were recorded for posterity but may very well have said much more. Since anything else he may have said that day is unknown, that might not be important, but I think the possibility (liklihood, IMHO) is at least worth mentioning.
I agree that the Gospels indicate that Jesus was quoting scripture, possibly more that what is quoted, up to and beyond the entire Psalm. It seems to me that there could be two (not mutually exclusive) reasons. One would be for his own benefit, that being to support his own faith in a time of great challenge (to put it lightly). Another would be to use the event of his crucifixion to "witness" to the onlookers. Either, IMHO, is more likely than that he thought that God had forsaken him.
I'm not a believer, but to me it seems that the Bible suggests one or both of two things: Jesus quoted scripture to strengthen his own faith, or to direct his audience to the scriptures. Either way, it was neither a cry of triumph nor a cry of defeat.
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Raf
LG,
You presume that witnessing to onlookers and this being a cry of triumph are mutually exclusive. I don't particularly see it that way.
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LG
I meant that it wasn't a cry of triumph in the sense in which Wiewille presented it. In the sense it appears you understand it, perhaps it could be considered a cry of triumph.
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templelady
So you are saying that at death God's Spirit did not leave Jesus and he did not feel it leaving/forsaking him?
So how, if God's Spirit never left did he die???
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Raf
Not a relevant question in my theology. A relevant question in Mormon theology, granted. That's why we disagree. Coffee?
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dmiller
Docvic had it wrong. And since I am the one who posted the link to the
CES/STFI article, let me add my perspective, if I may.
Jesus Christ (in his dying moments) was trying to tell the assembly there at the cross
(the ekklesia????) WHO HE WAS -- one final time.
Simple as that. For anyone to say *God forsook Him*, or *For this purpose I was spared*,
(imho) flies in the face of who Jesus Christ was, and what He did.
He was about others, not Himself.
He was always reaching out.
He was all about giving vs receiving.
He was *other's* focused, not *self* focused.
He was friend to the friendless.
He was the one who could have condemned, yet refrained.
By quoting the first line and the last line of that trilogy,
He was making one last attempt to REACH OUT.
Reaching out to those in attendance, and saying THINK!!
Quoting verses that would make the folks there at the scene
THINK ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING, AND WHAT WAS WRITTEN.
He had gone through (over) 40 hours of torture from Monday to Wednesday 9 am.
He wasn't even recognizable as a human being.
He must have looked like a slug crawling to the final site.
Yet He had the prescence of mind to do what He had always done ---
Preaching the Word one last time, reaching out to others.
Whether there was anguish or triumph in that *cry*,
neither you nor I know (nor will we), until that day that is coming.
It is TOTALLY in keeping with His character
to have reached out --- one last time ---
thinking of others, rather than Himself.
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templelady
Actually I'm not sure it is a relevant question in LDS theology
It is, however, a relevant question for me
Either Jesus Christ did what he said--and that including dying just like every other living thing on earth dies--and was resurrected by Heavenly Father
Or, it was a hoax and Jesus knew from the outset that he really wasn't going to DIE die
I suppose that becomes a bit more blurry if you hold to the belief system that Heavenly Father and Jesus are one and the same, then GOD dying would be impossible because if God REALLY died then who would resurrect HIM??? (my head aches just writing that sentence)
If you aren't Trinitarian I suppose It is hard because it brings Jesus to our level--which IMO is exactly what He did--but as a whole we seem to have trouble really believing that--hence again IMO all the excuses we make for blowing it "there was only one perfect man" etc while ignoring "be ye perfect as Christ was perfect"
As for the cup of coffee, I'll have to pass but i would be more than happy to sit at the cafe and have a strawberry lemonade and inhale the fumes from your cup
(of all the things I miss , a steaming cup of coffee with cream and sugar first thing on a winter morn has got to be the hardest on some days)
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Sunesis
Actually, I tend to agree with TempleLady here (even though I am trinitarian :)
First, I need to do more study on the sacrificial lamb that had all of Israel's sins put on it and was sent to wander the wilderness and die. I believe it was cursed, alone and forsaken. Christ was that lamb for us.
At the end of the psalm, when Christ says, "It is finished," he gave a loud cry and gave up his spirit (KJ says ghost, but I believe spirit is a better translation). He willingly gave up his spirit, as God's son, as the only human who ever comprehended him, as one who had been with God before, shared God's essence intimately, and had since the beginning, to purposely separate from this and give up his spirit, must have been agonizing.
Yes, I agree also he spoke the Word so people would know, this was truly him, but he was also the cursed lamb redeeming mankind. I believe the Psalm was appropriate to him, he was forsaken, he knew it, but it was something that must be done, but he knew, even in this condition, he would be entering into God's city. He would not be forsaken forever.
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allan w.
No coffee Mo ?? You little martyr you !!
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Bluzeman
I don't understand what you said here. You mean that Jesus didn't know that he would be resurrected?
Just asking, maybe I'm being a little slow here. :)
Rick
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