And, I'm still waiting for a teaching given to PFAL grads , or any statement that said, you didn't lose those rights. I see you're still on PFAL ---could it be that you can't produce such a statement outside of PFAL because it doesn't exist????
I don't suppose it would exist because it never needed to.
Twi already taught and continues to teach that our son of God status, and sonship rights status, is permanent.
(Although I never took WAP, I heard this is the case with WAP as well.)
So why would twi have to, or feel the need to, teach that our sonship and sonship rights are permanent upon someone's departure? It has already been taught through established teachings that they are permanent.
Permanent means permanent. Forevermore means forevermore. Eternal life means eternal life. Even a fool need not err therein!
Mo, if you are suggesting that twi taught / said that us folks who left twi are no longer sons of God, and no longer have our God-given sonship rights (righteousness, sanctification, justification, redemption, ministry of reconciliation), then it is incumbent upon you to produce written evidence of same.
Instead of suggesting fanciful theories, why not stick with established, verifiable, provable, teachings of twi?
God knows there are enough of them without making these subtle accusations don't you think?
Did twi even come close to practicing that in practice? In no way did they practice that. If you left for whatever reason whether a person was just fed up with their crap or thrown out or if a MOG was effing your wife. TWI try as they may yanked that button out and claimed the person as scum and ruled by devil spirits and would be grease spots by midnight. Did they ever say that "There goes a Son or Daughter of God with all of his or her God given rights" We wish them the best." Not hardly. In other words they said we were playing with the devil in his own back yard.
Saying that one who has left twi is playing in the "devils camp" is entirely different than saying that one is no longer a son of God, and no longer has sonship rights.
I quoted an excerpt from PFAL that proves twi taught sonship rights are permanent ...
From Justloafing ~~~
twi taught one thing but lived another.
Oldies -- JL is right. What twi taught, and what they actually practiced is night and day.
It's a fact that many who disagreed were labeled as possessed, and tossed out.
Now -- I have a question if I may. :)
What did twi teach about spirit possession in a believer?? I'm asking, cause I don't remember.
According to docvic and pfal, was it possible for a born again believer to be possessed?
Because if they taught that it was impossible for one who was born again to be possessed, and then by declaring believers who dissented as *possessed* ---they went against their own doctrine, and were insinuating that the person was no longer born again, if they really did have the evil spirit that twi claimed they had.
I seem to remember that it was taught that Holy Spirit, and a devil spirit couldn't inhabit the same human body at the same time --- but I could be wrong about that.
Oldies -- JL is right. What twi taught, and what they actually practiced is night and day.
It's a fact that many who disagreed were labeled as possessed, and tossed out.
Now -- I have a question if I may. :)
What did twi teach about spirit possession in a believer?? I'm asking, cause I don't remember.
According to docvic and pfal, was it possible for a born again believer to be possessed?
Because if they taught that it was impossible for one who was born again to be possessed, and then by declaring believers who dissented as *possessed* ---they went against their own doctrine, and were insinuating that the person was no longer born again, if they really did have the evil spirit that twi claimed they had.
I seem to remember that it was taught that Holy Spirit, and a devil spirit couldn't inhabit the same human body at the same time --- but I could be wrong about that.
Yes a believer could get possesed by a devil spirit and still was born again. What was also said D, was that you could only be born of one seed, either by the spirit of God or of the devil. Once born of one or the other it could not be reversed. I sort of have a problem with that teaching.
The answer is woefully obvious that twi was all about curses.
All about curses? I wouldn't say that at all.
Depends on who you are talking about, what time period, and what circumstance/incident.
I have to assume most folks in twi have their own lives to worry about without blessing/cursing folks they don't have fellowship with, just like most of us.
Although, I have to say that "some" of the internet defamation that goes on against twi may promote a blanket, one-size-fits-all condemnation of twi, evening cursing of twi, which I think can be unfair.
If twi did teach that a human body could hold both Holy Spirit, and devil spirit at the same time,
Why didn't they try to deliver the person,
instead of kicking them out on the street
with only the clothes on their backs???
What a loving ministry.
Their actions speak much louder than the sermons they preach.
I think that nails it on the head. They used any excuse to cover up or hide anything they wanted. It came to the point IMHO we saw people kicked out and were told they were possesed and we BELIEVED it. It happened so many times we BELIEVED it to our core of our mind set. So when it happened to people they believed they were kicked out because they were not right and had failed God. I am so glad that lasted with me for a very short while after I left. I was labled as possesed (I found out from an innie). There was no internet back then and I was out on my own. I did not know anyone that was out so I dealt with it on my own. Funny thing about it. I still believed I was right in the eyes of God. Can you say "sonship rights".
twi knew how to mess up a mind and got better and better at it. The deeper you got in to twi the bigger the mind f*@k was.
Depends on who you are talking about, what time period, and what circumstance/incident.
I have to assume most folks in twi have their own lives to worry about without blessing/cursing folks they don't have fellowship with, just like most of us.
Although, I have to say that "some" of the internet defamation that goes on against twi may promote a blanket, one-size-fits-all condemnation of twi, evening cursing of twi, which I think can be unfair.
OM...you seem to be an insightful person most of the time...how is it you are so willfully blind to the point of the ridiculous when it comes to the reality of twi?
Let's see..... TWI taught that lying is wrong - oh wait - they didn't really - LCM used the women in Egypt who were supposed to be killing the firstborn son of all the Jews as an example of it being okay to lie.... I don't think you're going to be able to find it on TWIt letterhead anywhere though.
TWI doctrine is two-faced, just wait long enough and they'll pervert whatever they may happen to get correct the first time.
What I want to know is - how do you "manifest" something that was given to you? Isn't righteousness a state of being? If you are made into the state of being righteous by God, then there's nothing to "do" - nothing to "manifest" - you are what you are.
And then, if you are supposed to manifest your righteousness, then isn't that doing works? Wouldn't that be like "justifying" your righteousness? How is that any different from what they slam the "other churches" for doing?
What I want to know is - how do you "manifest" something that was given to you? Isn't righteousness a state of being? If you are made into the state of being righteous by God, then there's nothing to "do" - nothing to "manifest" - you are what you are.
So -- if you had a million bucks, given to you --
wouldn't your wealth be a *state of being* also?
And if you were wealthy like that, I bet you would *manifest* the fact,
by spending that money, investing it, whatever --
instead of just being content that you had the money, and were who you were.
Manifesting the gifts, abilities, etc., that each and any of us have,
I try to stay open minded about peoples' beliefs and why they believe as they do. Mormons are easy to understand. They have a founder (prophet) as many religions, a holy book.. the book of Mormon and on top of all that, Mormons are all around good decent people living productive lives. My dental hygienist is a Mormon.
So assuming you know all these attributes about the Mormons (since Mormonism is your chief bugaboo) I have to wonder where you acquired your vitriol towards the Mormons. Most probably you got ditched by a Mormon girlfriend. Maybe she wasn't entirely satisfied with your love making abilities and/or "equipment". Maybe it was your obvious lack of intellectual abilities since all you can do towards Mormons is take swipes at them. But maybe you just feel inadequate in your own mind towards faiths you don't like. Hey, I can understand.. it must be tough when you're under par, huh?
I wouldn't want to call you a callous snivilling jerk-off bully as that would be unkind, Allan. But let's say a lot of us wouldn't miss your presence around this forum too much, bub.
I'm wondering why you think the way you do about extra-marital sex ? They say there is often hanky panky between dentists and their dental hygeinists, are you speaking from a bit of remorseful experience yourself ?
I don't harbor animosity towards any religious group, however I disdain hypocrites highly.
And btw, after reading some of your posts, especially in politics and tacks forum I'd have to repudiate your statement about you being open to other peoples beliefs !
Jesus Christ paid the price for our sins. When we are at the judgement He will step forward for each of who accepted Him and declare to Heavenly Father "This one is mine , I paid the price" At that moment we stand righteous before God. No other person can stop us from accepting or continuing to believe that The Lord Jesus Christ is Our Savior. Hence no other person can take away our Rights as one of His
ORANGES
We are righteous on the earth while we follow Jesus Christ and conduct ourselves righteously in thought word and deed. We may through our own choices , choose to live unrighteously, or reject Jesus Christ at any time, even after we have accepted Him. Unrighteous behavior does not make us righteous. Paul covered that when he asked if we should sin more so grace could abound. Sin IS Sin, ACCEPTEANCE OF JESUS CHRIST IS NOT A LICENSE TO SIN WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES. In fact Christ Himself makes the point when he says not everyone who Calls "Lord Lord" will be accepted by him
APPLE AND ORANGE FRUIT SALAD
TWI
Mo, if you are suggesting that twi taught / said that us folks who left twi are no longer sons of God, and no longer have our God-given sonship rights (righteousness, sanctification, justification, redemption, ministry of reconciliation), then it is incumbent upon you to produce written evidence of same.
Instead of suggesting fanciful theories, why not stick with established, verifiable, provable, teachings of twi?
God knows there are enough of them without making these subtle accusations don't you think?
Attention OM Written evidence of SAME
THAT IS WHAT THEY SAID TO ME WHEN I LEFT!!!!
I think that takes care of "subtle accusations", Fanciful theories" etc.
Oh yeah, the other thing they said when I left was "your Multiple Sclerosis is punishment from God for leaving and not following leaderships instructions during the trials"
And I know there was a passage in PFAL that clearly stated that GOD didn't make people ill--guess we have another case of TWI blatantly contradicting itself
You don't have to justify to me how long you've been married. Misery loves company sometimes. You like picking on other folks beliefs? No one's stopping you but you have been unable to see what nearly everyone else here sees what that makes you. In fact, you seem unable to see a whole lot. And if you don't like what I say in Politics, confront me. But people with little minds.. who like to redicule others usually don't have the nerve to show themselves for what they are when it takes a little intellect.
I guess what really bothers me about the way you post is that you want to pick on folks who don't want to deal with you. Is that a pretty good definition of a bully? Or just a jerk?
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oldiesman
Twi already taught and continues to teach that our son of God status, and sonship rights status, is permanent.
(Although I never took WAP, I heard this is the case with WAP as well.)
So why would twi have to, or feel the need to, teach that our sonship and sonship rights are permanent upon someone's departure? It has already been taught through established teachings that they are permanent.
Permanent means permanent. Forevermore means forevermore. Eternal life means eternal life. Even a fool need not err therein!
Mo, if you are suggesting that twi taught / said that us folks who left twi are no longer sons of God, and no longer have our God-given sonship rights (righteousness, sanctification, justification, redemption, ministry of reconciliation), then it is incumbent upon you to produce written evidence of same.
Instead of suggesting fanciful theories, why not stick with established, verifiable, provable, teachings of twi?
God knows there are enough of them without making these subtle accusations don't you think?
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oldiesman
Sin does not remove what God has wrought through Christ Jesus for us, thank God. :)
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oldiesman
Who says that?
A Christian's righteousness is not based on works, but on the sacrifice of Christ.
We stand righteous before God because of what Christ did, not because of what we do.
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oldiesman
Saying that one who has left twi is playing in the "devils camp" is entirely different than saying that one is no longer a son of God, and no longer has sonship rights.
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CoolWaters
OM..that's not the point...
The point is...
Did twi bless or curse the 'brethren'?
The answer is woefully obvious that twi was all about curses.
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dmiller
Oldies -- JL is right. What twi taught, and what they actually practiced is night and day.
It's a fact that many who disagreed were labeled as possessed, and tossed out.
Now -- I have a question if I may. :)
What did twi teach about spirit possession in a believer?? I'm asking, cause I don't remember.
According to docvic and pfal, was it possible for a born again believer to be possessed?
Because if they taught that it was impossible for one who was born again to be possessed, and then by declaring believers who dissented as *possessed* ---they went against their own doctrine, and were insinuating that the person was no longer born again, if they really did have the evil spirit that twi claimed they had.
I seem to remember that it was taught that Holy Spirit, and a devil spirit couldn't inhabit the same human body at the same time --- but I could be wrong about that.
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justloafing
Yes a believer could get possesed by a devil spirit and still was born again. What was also said D, was that you could only be born of one seed, either by the spirit of God or of the devil. Once born of one or the other it could not be reversed. I sort of have a problem with that teaching.
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dmiller
Oh -- something I forgot to add ~~~
If twi did teach that a human body could hold both Holy Spirit, and devil spirit at the same time,
Why didn't they try to deliver the person,
instead of kicking them out on the street
with only the clothes on their backs???
What a loving ministry.
Their actions speak much louder than the sermons they preach.
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oldiesman
All about curses? I wouldn't say that at all.
Depends on who you are talking about, what time period, and what circumstance/incident.
I have to assume most folks in twi have their own lives to worry about without blessing/cursing folks they don't have fellowship with, just like most of us.
Although, I have to say that "some" of the internet defamation that goes on against twi may promote a blanket, one-size-fits-all condemnation of twi, evening cursing of twi, which I think can be unfair.
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justloafing
I think that nails it on the head. They used any excuse to cover up or hide anything they wanted. It came to the point IMHO we saw people kicked out and were told they were possesed and we BELIEVED it. It happened so many times we BELIEVED it to our core of our mind set. So when it happened to people they believed they were kicked out because they were not right and had failed God. I am so glad that lasted with me for a very short while after I left. I was labled as possesed (I found out from an innie). There was no internet back then and I was out on my own. I did not know anyone that was out so I dealt with it on my own. Funny thing about it. I still believed I was right in the eyes of God. Can you say "sonship rights".
twi knew how to mess up a mind and got better and better at it. The deeper you got in to twi the bigger the mind f*@k was.
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oldiesman
Yes.
The gift of holy spirit, being born again, sonship rights, all those goodies... doesn't innoculate the believer from getting possessed.
Remember the teaching in PFAL about SIT and snake charming?
You can speak in tongues and snake charm all at the same time.
The SIT is genuine... the snake charming is possession. ...
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allan w.
Smoeone mentioned stuff in pfal used as 'bait' to 'hook' people into their church.
How about this one..." we ask that you take this book of mor*on home and read it and 'pray' to God to show you that it is 'true' !
How about this one... Jos**h Smi*h was a 'true' prophet, therefore his book of mor*on is true, etc..
Please don't be so hypocritical !
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justloafing
:blink: <_<
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dmiller
Hiya Allan! How be ye?? :)
Hey -- this here is a thread about twi, their magazine articles,
and the redundancy of teaching from the past many decades.
I'ts NOT about Mormonism, Jw's, Catholic's, Baptist's, etc., etc., etc.
Now I'm not a MOD or anything, but it would be nice to stay on topic here. ;)
Since I would appreciate it, I know others would too.
(JUST A THOT!!)
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CoolWaters
OM...you seem to be an insightful person most of the time...how is it you are so willfully blind to the point of the ridiculous when it comes to the reality of twi?
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Belle
Let's see..... TWI taught that lying is wrong - oh wait - they didn't really - LCM used the women in Egypt who were supposed to be killing the firstborn son of all the Jews as an example of it being okay to lie.... I don't think you're going to be able to find it on TWIt letterhead anywhere though.
TWI doctrine is two-faced, just wait long enough and they'll pervert whatever they may happen to get correct the first time.
What I want to know is - how do you "manifest" something that was given to you? Isn't righteousness a state of being? If you are made into the state of being righteous by God, then there's nothing to "do" - nothing to "manifest" - you are what you are.
And then, if you are supposed to manifest your righteousness, then isn't that doing works? Wouldn't that be like "justifying" your righteousness? How is that any different from what they slam the "other churches" for doing?
edited cause I forgot to blue my type ^_^
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oldiesman
Do you want the TWI/PFAL answer or are you looking for a different answer? :)
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dmiller
So -- if you had a million bucks, given to you --
wouldn't your wealth be a *state of being* also?
And if you were wealthy like that, I bet you would *manifest* the fact,
by spending that money, investing it, whatever --
instead of just being content that you had the money, and were who you were.
Manifesting the gifts, abilities, etc., that each and any of us have,
is the evidence, that we are who we are. :)
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Sudo
Allan,
I try to stay open minded about peoples' beliefs and why they believe as they do. Mormons are easy to understand. They have a founder (prophet) as many religions, a holy book.. the book of Mormon and on top of all that, Mormons are all around good decent people living productive lives. My dental hygienist is a Mormon.
So assuming you know all these attributes about the Mormons (since Mormonism is your chief bugaboo) I have to wonder where you acquired your vitriol towards the Mormons. Most probably you got ditched by a Mormon girlfriend. Maybe she wasn't entirely satisfied with your love making abilities and/or "equipment". Maybe it was your obvious lack of intellectual abilities since all you can do towards Mormons is take swipes at them. But maybe you just feel inadequate in your own mind towards faiths you don't like. Hey, I can understand.. it must be tough when you're under par, huh?
I wouldn't want to call you a callous snivilling jerk-off bully as that would be unkind, Allan. But let's say a lot of us wouldn't miss your presence around this forum too much, bub.
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allan w.
Been inhaling the mercury fumes again have we ?!
Married for 22 years, how about you ?
I'm wondering why you think the way you do about extra-marital sex ? They say there is often hanky panky between dentists and their dental hygeinists, are you speaking from a bit of remorseful experience yourself ?
I don't harbor animosity towards any religious group, however I disdain hypocrites highly.
And btw, after reading some of your posts, especially in politics and tacks forum I'd have to repudiate your statement about you being open to other peoples beliefs !
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templelady
APPLES
Jesus Christ paid the price for our sins. When we are at the judgement He will step forward for each of who accepted Him and declare to Heavenly Father "This one is mine , I paid the price" At that moment we stand righteous before God. No other person can stop us from accepting or continuing to believe that The Lord Jesus Christ is Our Savior. Hence no other person can take away our Rights as one of His
ORANGES
We are righteous on the earth while we follow Jesus Christ and conduct ourselves righteously in thought word and deed. We may through our own choices , choose to live unrighteously, or reject Jesus Christ at any time, even after we have accepted Him. Unrighteous behavior does not make us righteous. Paul covered that when he asked if we should sin more so grace could abound. Sin IS Sin, ACCEPTEANCE OF JESUS CHRIST IS NOT A LICENSE TO SIN WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES. In fact Christ Himself makes the point when he says not everyone who Calls "Lord Lord" will be accepted by him
APPLE AND ORANGE FRUIT SALAD
TWI
Attention OM Written evidence of SAME
THAT IS WHAT THEY SAID TO ME WHEN I LEFT!!!!
I think that takes care of "subtle accusations", Fanciful theories" etc.
Oh yeah, the other thing they said when I left was "your Multiple Sclerosis is punishment from God for leaving and not following leaderships instructions during the trials"
And I know there was a passage in PFAL that clearly stated that GOD didn't make people ill--guess we have another case of TWI blatantly contradicting itself
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Sudo
Allan,
You don't have to justify to me how long you've been married. Misery loves company sometimes. You like picking on other folks beliefs? No one's stopping you but you have been unable to see what nearly everyone else here sees what that makes you. In fact, you seem unable to see a whole lot. And if you don't like what I say in Politics, confront me. But people with little minds.. who like to redicule others usually don't have the nerve to show themselves for what they are when it takes a little intellect.
I guess what really bothers me about the way you post is that you want to pick on folks who don't want to deal with you. Is that a pretty good definition of a bully? Or just a jerk?
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justloafing
Take your choice Sudo.............I think most here would pick one of the two.
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allan w.
Well, if you're ever in Aussie let me know, try saying those things to my face, little man.
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