I certainly don`t know where and when Oldies became such an authority on what *rascal* believes.. ....but lets get this straight shall we?
I BELIEVE that when Jesus said that by their *fruit* ye shall know them...he meant precisely just that....
I BELIEVE that when Galatians say that manifestation of certain behaviors are the direct result of people being of the *flesh*..it means precisely just that...
I BELIEVE that when Galations says that those who are guilty of being of the *flesh* have NO inheritance in the kingdom of God....it means precisely just that....
Go on and try to justify why we are to ignore clear instructions in the scriptures in favor of twi dogma, and ignoring peoples viscious and destructive behavior.....but this certainly isn`t about me or my opinions or my beliefs here...it is about what scriptures themselves declare concerning vpw`s actions...and the validity of his ministry and doctrine.
Cw said.." OM like it or not you are 'witnessing' and what you are touting has been proven to destroy peoples lives..."
Yes CW..like a couple of other posters here, come on, if it's o.k. for one to do it and get away without getting pulled up, it's o.k. for all. Otherwise that thinking makes this forum another one where the worst kind of biggoted, hypocrites hang out.
Allan...I specifically said "and others".
I don't care one bit what anybody posts. Post away. Have a blast.
Just don't get PO'd or insulted if I take issue with it.
Coolwaters, even the Apostle Paul said of himself that he was carnal, and a sinner, in Romans 7:14-25, so even if he stopped his murdering, he was still a sinner and sin worked in him.
And when one interprets Galatians 5 like Rascal does, it doesn't matter whether Saul was converted or not, because he did the dirty deed and there is no mercy or forgiveness.
She takes that verse literally, throws out others.
***********************
You say VP never changed... were you around him 24/7?
I spent a month with the guy in June of 1984.... didn't notice him murdering and raping...
He was still teaching God's word ...
How do you know he and LCM and others didn't ask God for forgiveness for their sins?
Works (fruit) is what proves you are saved. It is said over and over throughout the bible in various ways and passages.
TWI substituted SIT for "Fruit"
In fact, SIT is one of the gifts of the holy spirit, not even the greatest one per Paul
If you are "born Again" truly converted, you weight your actions against the yardstick of "what would Jesus do" And if you slip and forget to check, or for some reason fall short you ask forgiveness and it is granted through Jesus Christ. As for the the rest of the world they see your "Fruit" ---kindness, generosity, aiding others etc.
This is in sharp contrast to the belief system that says, once you are born Again, you can do anything you want because you are forever righteous. Which is proved, no matter how aggregious the sin, as long as you SIT. You can SIT in your bedroom with no witnesses and prove to yourself you are righteous and sally forth with no change in your behavior as regards the "Fruit" the world sees from your hands ( and I'm not even going to get into how many times that experience was faked)
i also believe that salvation is by grace and not works but shouldn't we who are saved by grace be thankful enough to do some good works so we can be a witness of gods freely given grace?
i also believe that salvation is by grace and not works but shouldn't we who are saved by grace be thankful enough to do some good works so we can be a witness of gods freely given grace?
I would like to know from those who are against OM in this position, If a person loses the sonship rights how do they get them back? Can they get them back? If you can get them back can you loose them again? My point is that nobody is ever going to get to the Christian walk where we are perfect in these catagories of the flesh. But we endeavor to be. And if we are ever going back in forth from sonship rights to no sonship rights thats what I call works. Why dont we just start going to a priest and confess from here to F*%*#& Sunday and get a head start on those works. Now there is a difference in walking in the light and not. And I John 1:8,9 say that its going to happen. But he is faithfull to forgive us. And you better watch out that you don't step on my justification either. Because if I have to pay with wrath for the ones I didn't recieve any reproof and correction on and may or may not have asked forgivness for the the justification is worthless. What if I die right after I committ a sin of the flesh? I guess its to hell for me according CW. Jesus Had all my sins on the cross, past present and future. All we had to do was believe one time "unto righteousness." If you take those verses in Galations and dont interperet with the clear verses on the subject you have the wrong deviding of the Word. I wonder if this is really even about the Word or if some people just want to write off anything that evens smell like TWI. But this stuff smell sweet to me!
well... I'll tell you right up front rickyg, I question anything I've ever learned from TWI... It may be true, but until I can get some other definitive source (that I trust) telling me the same thing... I'll doubt it.
I have no faith in anything I learned in TWI because so much of what was taught was bent to the personal ideologies of veepee and then to LCM and now to RR...
If they were presented with research that didn't fit 'what they wanted' they disregarded it or sliced it up so that it did fit...
Ricky it sounds like you are the one *writing off the word* by entirely dismissing galatians in support of your personal perceptions.
The fruit listed as being *of the flesh* are simply that ...an indication of what a person is inside....Galation further clarifies that they will have no *inheritance in the kingdom of God.
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rascal
I certainly don`t know where and when Oldies became such an authority on what *rascal* believes..
....but lets get this straight shall we?
I BELIEVE that when Jesus said that by their *fruit* ye shall know them...he meant precisely just that....
I BELIEVE that when Galatians say that manifestation of certain behaviors are the direct result of people being of the *flesh*..it means precisely just that...
I BELIEVE that when Galations says that those who are guilty of being of the *flesh* have NO inheritance in the kingdom of God....it means precisely just that....
Go on and try to justify why we are to ignore clear instructions in the scriptures in favor of twi dogma, and ignoring peoples viscious and destructive behavior.....but this certainly isn`t about me or my opinions or my beliefs here...it is about what scriptures themselves declare concerning vpw`s actions...and the validity of his ministry and doctrine.
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CoolWaters
Allan...I specifically said "and others".
I don't care one bit what anybody posts. Post away. Have a blast.
Just don't get PO'd or insulted if I take issue with it.
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CoolWaters
Look...
Bottom line is...
Saul of Tarsus aka Paul quit going around killing people after his conversion.
VPW et al continued to commit adultery, fornication, lying, bearing false witness, etc. BECAUSE THEY USED GRACE AS A SEASON OF THE FLESH.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Paul actually had a conversion and vpw et al never changed.
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oldiesman
Coolwaters, even the Apostle Paul said of himself that he was carnal, and a sinner, in Romans 7:14-25, so even if he stopped his murdering, he was still a sinner and sin worked in him.
And when one interprets Galatians 5 like Rascal does, it doesn't matter whether Saul was converted or not, because he did the dirty deed and there is no mercy or forgiveness.
She takes that verse literally, throws out others.
***********************
You say VP never changed... were you around him 24/7?
I spent a month with the guy in June of 1984.... didn't notice him murdering and raping...
He was still teaching God's word ...
How do you know he and LCM and others didn't ask God for forgiveness for their sins?
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CoolWaters
OM...
This is a 'duh' moment...
I know they didn't because of their fruit.
Duh.
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templelady
You are not saved by your works (Fruit)
Works (fruit) is what proves you are saved. It is said over and over throughout the bible in various ways and passages.
TWI substituted SIT for "Fruit"
In fact, SIT is one of the gifts of the holy spirit, not even the greatest one per Paul
If you are "born Again" truly converted, you weight your actions against the yardstick of "what would Jesus do" And if you slip and forget to check, or for some reason fall short you ask forgiveness and it is granted through Jesus Christ. As for the the rest of the world they see your "Fruit" ---kindness, generosity, aiding others etc.
This is in sharp contrast to the belief system that says, once you are born Again, you can do anything you want because you are forever righteous. Which is proved, no matter how aggregious the sin, as long as you SIT. You can SIT in your bedroom with no witnesses and prove to yourself you are righteous and sally forth with no change in your behavior as regards the "Fruit" the world sees from your hands ( and I'm not even going to get into how many times that experience was faked)
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oldiesman
Mo, I'd say the same thing about "fruit" as I would about "SIT"
I still believe SIT proves that one is born again.
You believe "fruit" proves that one are born again.
But neither get you born again.
You don't have to SIT, or produce fruit, to be saved.
Salvation is not by works, it's by God's grace.
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templelady
no one has said that isn't true (orange)
What is under discussion is the doctrine of perpetual righteousness as taught by TWI (pear)
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i also believe that salvation is by grace and not works but shouldn't we who are saved by grace be thankful enough to do some good works so we can be a witness of gods freely given grace?
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dmiller
Hey Chef ~~~ can you whip us up a fruit salad here???
Mo's already got the ingredients for ya!
(But if you top it with PIZZA - don't you dare call it a fruit salad.)
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CoolWaters
Didn't I read somewhere that faith without works is dead?
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oldiesman
That is in James, written by James the Lords brother "the Legalist".
There is some controversy over whether that should have been added to the bible in the first place.
Check out "The Two Ways of the Christian Church" by Dave Anderson. :)
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CoolWaters
Again...I shoulda listened to my mother...
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oldiesman
Soundzgood. :)
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templelady
Ah the predictability of the TWI brained--If it doesn't fit our dogma that it shouldn't be in the Bible.
I mean since "we" are right and the rest of the world wrong-any scripture that doesn't agree with us must be,
a figure of speech indecipherable except for those in the know,
wrong,
translated wrongly,
clear words have been substituted for unclear words
...la da dee la da dum
And the beat goes on.....
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Belle
It's debatable as to whether Romans 13:8 is supposed to be in the Bible, too, but that hasn't stopped them from using it. <_<
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oldiesman
Mo, this is not way brain at all but a reasonable controversy.
Check out David Anderson's book... he's not way brained and you may find it quite thought provoking.
Martin Luther may have had a similar position if I remember correctly. I could be wrong.
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templelady
I know Who David Anderson is. I even have his books on ACTS. He does write well. But that doesn't mean I agree with everything he writes
Using the argument that a book shouldn't be in the Bible to absolve oneself from either
Is not a very convincing argument. The fact is, James is in the Bible so lets go from there.
Now, I'm still waiting for that verse about perpetual righteousness even when sinning
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CM
there is and will be always controversy
gotta learn to get past some of it
to take look for yourself and think for yourself
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rickyg
I would like to know from those who are against OM in this position, If a person loses the sonship rights how do they get them back? Can they get them back? If you can get them back can you loose them again? My point is that nobody is ever going to get to the Christian walk where we are perfect in these catagories of the flesh. But we endeavor to be. And if we are ever going back in forth from sonship rights to no sonship rights thats what I call works. Why dont we just start going to a priest and confess from here to F*%*#& Sunday and get a head start on those works. Now there is a difference in walking in the light and not. And I John 1:8,9 say that its going to happen. But he is faithfull to forgive us. And you better watch out that you don't step on my justification either. Because if I have to pay with wrath for the ones I didn't recieve any reproof and correction on and may or may not have asked forgivness for the the justification is worthless. What if I die right after I committ a sin of the flesh? I guess its to hell for me according CW. Jesus Had all my sins on the cross, past present and future. All we had to do was believe one time "unto righteousness." If you take those verses in Galations and dont interperet with the clear verses on the subject you have the wrong deviding of the Word. I wonder if this is really even about the Word or if some people just want to write off anything that evens smell like TWI. But this stuff smell sweet to me!
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Tom Strange
well... I'll tell you right up front rickyg, I question anything I've ever learned from TWI... It may be true, but until I can get some other definitive source (that I trust) telling me the same thing... I'll doubt it.
I have no faith in anything I learned in TWI because so much of what was taught was bent to the personal ideologies of veepee and then to LCM and now to RR...
If they were presented with research that didn't fit 'what they wanted' they disregarded it or sliced it up so that it did fit...
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rascal
Ricky it sounds like you are the one *writing off the word* by entirely dismissing galatians in support of your personal perceptions.
The fruit listed as being *of the flesh* are simply that ...an indication of what a person is inside....Galation further clarifies that they will have no *inheritance in the kingdom of God.
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templelady
That is the point--there is a huge difference in trying to lead a sinless life, messing up, asking forgiveness , and being forgiven
And
Living any way you please sin or not, doing what ever you want sin or not, and justifying it with a doctrine of "perpetual righteousness"
It's the latter that is the problem
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CM
it's all already been done ricky
seeing it is another story
removing the blinders and barriers
it can't be seen looking thru darkness
as evident in twi leadership
so they couldn't live it if they tryed
nothing has been taken away from us
we have been given
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