Spiritual things from the spiritual world may be known in this world only by the spirit which dwells in us. Then, and only then, can the Spirit relate impressions and truths to us about the spiritual world and make them logical. Then, and only then, do we have the God-given ability within us, making known to us things about the spiritual world.
I beg to differ with you on the grounds of the following verses:
John 20:31 ...but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ...NASB
Romans 1:20 ...For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so they are without excuse...NASB
Romans 10:17...so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. NASB
Mike insinuated I was drawing attention from his other posts.
So I shall draw attention to some of them...
For the complete contents, you can scroll up (you have the
original date/time intact) or click back to view the original post.
This way, you can see if I'm representing his comments
fairly.
dmiller,
I had written: “VPW rightfully demanded “his way or the highway” because God was working with him in a special, 2000 year unique fashion, and God placed him as the one in charge.”
[The standard Mikean message, Part I:
that God was silent for nearly 2000 years, working with NO Christian leaders in any
appreciable fashions, not even the ones vpw plagiarized, nor the ones that
vpw learned everything on the holy spirit field from,
but chose out an alcoholic, chain-smoking sex-addict to bestow the greatest
revelation in 2 millenia on,
which consisted of a holy cut-and-paste of the work of
Stiles
Bullinger
Leonard
Kenyon
and Lamsa.
This "greatest revelation in 2000 years is the pfal books."
I KNOW Mike would prefer I phrase it differently,
but that IS exactly the Mikean message.
(The only difference is rephrasing the description of the alcoholic, chain-smoking
sex-addict into something regal-sounding.)]
You responded with: “Sadly -- I bought into that at one point in my life. I chalk it up to the *foolishness of youth*, (these days).”
[dmiller learned a costly lesson.
Seeing vpw's source-material, and learning that he lied about miraculous
snowstorms-which were the sole witness to his divine revelation that
turned out to be a photocopy of the works of others-
taught dmiller a costly lesson.
The disgusting morals of the man who labelled himself a man who
received "the greatest revelation since the First Century" was ANOTHER
lesson-those who serve God don't live in sin, and make occasion to
serve the lusts thereof...and if they did, they would be operating at
cross-purposes with the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.
That's some of what dmiller learned since his foolish youth.]
No, the sad thing is that you didn’t go far enough with buying it. If you had really bought the idea you would have responded to this instruction in segment 5 of the 1979 AC to the all the AC students and all the AC grads:
[dmiller accepted that he'd lost enough to this costly error and cut his losses,
rather than dedicate the rest of his life to attempting to legitimize it and
use it to give the sole meaning to his life.
As such, all the memorizing of the White Book ceased.
The essence of the differences is here:]
You had the oportunity to see that last teaching in the Sep/Oct 1985 Way Magazine, but your buying into the God-given authority of VPW was not established in your life to the point of seeing it and then acting on it.
[Having seen the dramatic failure of vpw's work on a personal level and an
organization-wide level,
having taken a look at the man behind the curtain,
dmiller saw that he'd been taught some good Bible and some vile doctrine,
and jettisoned the idolatrous, vile doctrine.
Having seen the dramatic failure of vpw's work on a personal level
(vpw claimed ALL Christians should be financially prosperous,
and Mike, the supposed most advanced one of us here,
lives with NO financial prosperity, showing this to have been
either a failure, Mike to be a fraud, or both;
plus vpw himself failed to walk in the calling wherewith he was called,
making occasion for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof,
costing much money in dollars and unpriceable harm to the
beloved sisters in Christ, AND TAUGHT OTHERS TO DO THE SAME),
an organization-wide level
(vpw set up a structure that was unhealthy and lacked checks and balances,
then put the most defective leader in several states as the absolute authority
IN that organization, which led DIRECTLY to the cataclysms which destroyed
the thing and caused it to lose more than 99% of overall membership),
having taken a look at the man behind the curtain,
Mike decided that the fault could NOT have been in vpw NOR pfal,
and devised a set of doctrines that absolved both of error and mistake,
AND elevated both to an idolatrous level ABOVE that of the Bible.
Mike invented a new Gnostic path in order to salvage his happy memories
of his youth.]
CM,
You wrote: “I don't see any difference between what you are trying to do Mike and what they are doing. You are posting here too you know.”
Here are some differences:
The renegade, reprobate leaders claim that they have picked up where Dr left off, and yet they continue to downplay Dr’s instructions to master written PFAL. I promote these final instructions.
[Here's the similarity:
They claim to pick up where vpw left off,
and so do you.
They claim to be the best at interpreting the next step,
and so do you.
They added their own doctrines and changed things as suited them,
you added "hidden" messages and changed the plain text as suited you.
You can claim YOUR path of "hidden wisdom" is superior to theirs,
but it's just ANOTHER Gnostic path among many.
Might as well be elevating JUDAS as elevating vpw...]
The renegade, reprobate leaders promote the impression that they support Dr and PFAL to Dr’s followers, trying to woo them, yet they will quietly and behind the scenes, or much later come out and contradict many passages in Dr’s writings. In contrast, I seek to conform more and more to what Dr wrote.
The Introduction of the Orange Book said it's a book on KEYS to
Genesis to Revelation, NOT a replacement for it.
The renegade, reprobate Mike says the Orange Book REPLACES Genesis to Revelation.
(Sure, many here claim I contradict what they THINK they remember is in PFAL, but I don’t try to conform to those partial and distorted images, just to what’s on paper and what all the writings say, not just one passage often taken alone by many.)
[The plain meaning of the passages and Mike often run at
cross-purposes with each other,
thus the "HIDDEN MEANINGS" even Mike admits he uses.
The PLAIN MEANINGS being INSUFFICIENT to support Mike's doctrine,
he thus "finds" "hidden" (occulted) meanings that work for him.]
The renegade, reprobate leaders claim to have sat at the feet of the man of God, or are ordained, and therefore have one-up on those who did not. They demand to be the major speaker and shun give-and-take with others as equals. I don’t claim this superiority.
[Lacking the connection that they can claim-of actually KNOWING
vpw and interacting with him for YEARS that they can claim,
the renegade, reprobate Mike does not claim to be their equal
in that respect.
He DOES, however, claim to be the only one among all of US
that has THE special message, the special connection, the
special knowledge. The Mike claims his special Gnostic path.]
I just claim to have finally obeyed Dr and opened my books again to meekly master and urge others to do the same. I point not to my authority to have the deciding word like the renegade, reprobate leaders do, but I urge others to accept the revelations God had Dr put into writing as the final say.
[bUT,
whenever other look in the books and study their meaning,
WHEN THEY COME TO OTHER CONCLUSIONS THAN MIKE,
"meekly mastering" Mike blasts them as unfit researchers,
bozos, and so on. The renegade, reprobate Mike will
tolerate NO vision, NO reading of pfal other than the meanings
HE agrees with, that HE finds.]
The renegade, reprobate leaders are often looking for abundant sharing loyal followers. I am not.
[but if he ever had enough people to support him,
what would we see? We do not know at this time,
and Mike can't claim we DO, either way.]
The renegade, reprobate leaders get nasty and threateningly tough, warning of consequences and/or cut off communication with those who cross them, defy their leadership status, or contradict them. I do not. I seek to civilly discuss our differences and keep the door open to future conversation.
[Recent examples of Mike "civilly discussing our differences"...
from ONE post...
"stupid comments"
"mindlessly complain"
"idiot"
"I don't give a rat's foot."
"None of your business!"
"your mindless preferences"
"you condescending xxxx!"
"poorly thought through"
"very insulting derogatory terms"
"trivialities"
"I have a life" (unlike you)
"stupidity"]
*****************
[skipping several paragraphs that simply say
"all the leaders out there are inferior because they fail to pass the standard
invented and implemented BY me of endless review of books they lack
access to", we have the typical Mikean commercial again...]
It’s grossly UNimportant to do what a man says to do. However, if that man is relaying instructions from God, then it’s of UTMOST importance to obey.
I do totally believe that God selected Dr as His spokesman to settle all the Biblical research questions that have plagued theology for centuries and to give him major revelations to us about the Return of Christ and our expected actions to walk in harmony with this Return, correcting many traditional errors as to how that Return is to occur.
I don’t think that everything will be automatic, especially our participation in it. We need to be taught how to walk with God in His implementation of His plans. God issued these plans for us grads in written PFAL and that’s why He had Dr tell us for ten years and especially at the end to master written PFAL. When and only when we obey and meekly pick up PFAL to master it will God show us the next steps in this wonderful chapter in history.
In short I believe God told Dr to tell us to master written PFAL.
[Mike's message, in a few paragraphs.
There's some other stuff, but that's the essence of what Mike wants
us to buy. (Leaving out the snow and the lies and the cut-and-pastes
and so on.)]
You wrote (with my minor typo corrections): “Maybe God Almighty Himself is telling them something else. Do you ignore that possibility?”
No, I didn’t ignore that at all.
From 1985 and earlier, until 1998, I looked to many leaders to have instructions from God for us, only to be bitterly disappointed. I had started deliberately and gradually tuning out Dr in 1982. In 1998 I came back and found that I had actually tuned him out much earlier, as I pointed out to dmiller that he did too, in that I did not literally act on what Dr said to do, even though I weakly claimed to believe he was in charge and getting God's revelations.
NOW, I ignore the possibility that God is giving alternate instructions to these renegade reprobate leaders, because I see how thoroughly they rejected the instructions God gave them long ago via Dr’s ministry. But I only arrived at this position after deeply considering the opposite, the possibility you suggested, and many other factors.
Do YOU ignore the possibility that God Almighty Himself was telling Dr to tell us to master PFAL?
I’d say you do and that you have done for a long time now. I seriously doubt that you ever fully explored the possibility that God spoke via Dr's ministry, not FULLY. If you want to explore this possibility I can help you. We can do it privately to avoid the certain jeers from the peanut gallery.
[Of course, Mike has completely missed that he has given God only
TWO avenues thru which to work-
vpw/pfal and twi-leaders who learned from vpw/pfal,
and is convinced only ONE or the OTHER-
and no THIRD choice-
could possibly hold The Truth.
Mike also misses that others have seriously evaluated Mike's claim about
pfal USING the TOOLS of pfal, and the use of pfal has led them to a conclusion
radically different from his. Since they disagree with what he wants to
believe, they MUST be wrong. Otherwise, Mike's entire life is a waste and an
We were taught that what we CAN know by the five senses God expects us to know.
The first step is to bring in what information we can via the five senses, like reading what is written.
As we master that, stand on it, rely on it, THEN God can directly teach us the spiritual understanding.
The ultimate spiritual understanding or beliefs do not come via the five senses, but the foundational starting points do.
***
Back to your use of scripture, inserting assertions as I did:
I do not assert to have PROVED my point by my insertions, I merely illustrated my point. The proof of my point, as I already posted to you, comes from careful and recent absorption of the PFAL material and the application of it. God can then tell us that we are finally on the right track, giving us our proof privately and individually, and imparting to us the spiritual understanding.
We were taught that what we CAN know by the five senses God expects us to know.
The first step is to bring in what information we can via the five senses, like reading what is written.
As we master that, stand on it, rely on it, THEN God can directly teach us the spiritual understanding.
[This is where your system of "hidden messages" falls down.
When we "read what is written" and use our intellects as we can,
pfal clearly says one set of things.
You've just said that the intellect is useless, for YOUR system can't be
intellectually-justified.
Which is true-intellectually, your system is
nonsensical. However, trying to use a book like the Orange Book as
a guide MUST, by DEFINITION, involve the INTELLECT. That's
why your system and the actual text of the Orange Book part company.
Since the intellect's approach to the Orange Book leads to results
DIFFERENT than that of the Mikean system,
you've rejected ALL intellectual approaches,
EVEN THE KEYS TAUGHT IN PFAL, like
"at least 85% explains itself right where it's written."
Therefore, the Mikean system says to "master" books in a non-intellectual way.
And you wonder why you get that look. No, it's not because we're all
lousy Christians. But hey, if it makes you happy, you can keep telling
yourself that...]
The ultimate spiritual understanding or beliefs do not come via the five senses, but the foundational starting points do.
[but when the intellectual understanding refutes Mike, then it is to
be "held in abeyance" or discarded. We fell for that ONCE,
not again.
"In vain is the net spread in sight of any bird."]
Back to your use of scripture, inserting assertions as I did:
I do not assert to have PROVED my point by my insertions, I merely illustrated my point. The proof of my point, as I already posted to you, comes from careful and recent absorption of the PFAL material and the application of it. God can then tell us that we are finally on the right track, giving us our proof privately and individually, and imparting to us the spiritual understanding.
MAYBE I should buy TWO lottery tickets?
[Actually,
since vpw claimed FINANCIAL prosperity was one expectation
of understanding God and acting within that understanding,
one of the BEST ways to get our attention would be to erupt
into great financial wealth,
just like vpw said.
Then maybe you'd illustrate:
A) you "arrived" at what he was talking about
B) what he was talking about actually WORKED
I won't hold my breath on that one.
And I'll let Raf refute your mangled misunderstanding of how
Such nastiness in your words! Oh my! (how is it you get to post a$$ without it being censored anyway?)...
Did I hit a nerve? ...perhaps something a little "too close to home"???
For the life of me, I can't understand why a "messenger of the shepherd er Word er veepee would ever communicate in such a fashion... such invective! such vitriol! (I know that's redundant but it's a figure of speech) ...other figures of speech used in my earlier post (which were apparently lost on you) were irony and sarcasm...
Calm down son... there's nothing to get hung about... if you keep this up you're likely to blow a gasket.
Perhaps it's time to post the "Mike Synopsis" again? Let me know what you think...
Did you not like the line "I'm all done, that'll be $40 and by the way PFAL is God-breathed"???
I think that was one of my better ones... shall we take a census?
Have you ever ran in to or met anyone who has done what you think should be done with PFAL?
You asked:
"Do YOU ignore the possibility that God Almighty Himself was telling Dr to tell us to master PFAL?"
Yes I do ignore it because Victor Paul Wierwille used the Word of God deceitfully to satisfy his penis. If God really wanted us to master PFAL, He would have told many more than you because Victor has been dead for 20+ years.
Here's another question I have for you:
Do you ignore the possibility that maybe it's God putting the desire on YOUR heart to do what you do and not ours? Maybe it's just for you Mike.
I'm not here to talk you out of what you believe. I praise God for whatever works for YOU whether I agree with it or not. If it gets you closer to Him, praise Him. I just don't think it's rigth that you tell me what God wants for me. He has a tendency to go right to the source in my life.
I'm not here to talk you out of what you believe. I praise God for whatever works for YOU whether I agree with it or not. If it gets you closer to Him, praise Him. I just don't think it's rigth that you tell me what God wants for me. He has a tendency to go right to the source in my life.
I am in no way saying any of this in a demeaning manner to you.
Because of how zealous you are about what you believe, I think you would be better suited to start your own fellowship. Then you could have people who agree with you. Wouldn't it be nice to have people that wanted to agree with you and share your same beliefs?
But what would really be better is if you could accept that people could disagree with you and not be wrong or off the Word.
It just befuddles me that you would spend so much time to try to convince people who don't agree with you. You might have a more captive audience if you stopped telling people they aren't doing God's will. I view it as YOUR will, not God's.
For those of you "new" to Mike-ian logic here is the abbreviated version (so you won't have to lose your sight and mind reading all of his posts):
Mike has stated that: PFAL is 'God's Word reissued'. Mike has stated that this means we don't need any versions of the Bible anymore, only PFAL. Mike has stated that PFAL is the Word of God, that the Holy Spirit has provided us with His Word in written form in PFAL, and it (PFAL) carries all the authority of God Almighty. Mike has offered a 'Table of Challenge' (which he claims exposes things which some would prefer to keep hidden away) so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval. Mike has stated that Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
Mike has stated that betraying Dr's revelations is betraying God. You just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL. Mike has stated that studying PFAL will defeat death.
We now return you to our regularly scheduled program... please feel free to question Mike on any of the points mentioned above...
You wrote: “Have you ever ran in to or met anyone who has done what you think should be done with PFAL?”
Yes. Several here; several elsewhere on the Internet, and a couple from my old days in the ministry. They participate at various levels, and a few at the same intensity I do it. The ones I met here don’t discuss it on the boards, though. They don’t like the riff raff and cold scolding theologians that hound me. I don’t blame them. I don't count you in that bunch because you want to discuss things.
***
I had asked you if you ignored the possibility that God Almighty Himself was telling Dr to tell us to master PFAL. You responded with: “Yes I do ignore it because Victor Paul Wierwille used the Word of God deceitfully to satisfy his penis.”
That presupposes two things: that the intensity of the gossip/rumor mill is accurate after 20 plus years of harping, and that God is as uptight about sex as you are. I mean, we all should have known that Dr had sin in his life, because the Word says so. Every person who God ordained as His spokesman has had sin in their lives. It’s a big leap of theology for you to assert, “But not THAT kind of sin!” But really, if you were the devil, how would you try to take down a man of God? I’m speaking figuratively, but it’s not quite coming out that way. All I know is that when I look at the teaching, what is actually printed in the books, it has God written all over it. Why should I listen to people’s reports and people’s theology and people's scolding, when there is such better material to focus on? The reports and theology are dark and condemning. I know of a God Who is forgiving and merciful, and Who is able to work wonderful things with anyone, even sinners, even you and me. I've had enough dark condemnation of religion. Anyone escaping from TWI-2 should have had enough dark condemnation of religion. I’m not only offended by finger pointers, I’m bored silly by them. They have nothing positive to offer.
***
You wrote: “If God really wanted us to master PFAL, He would have told many more than you because Victor has been dead for 20+ years.”
He actually HAS told many more than me. I heard it from others. I didn’t hear it directly from God, not at first, anyway. See my post to T-Bone above, Post # 204, for more on senses hearing leading to spiritual hearing. As far as senses hearing, God told thousands to master PFAL over a ten year span. People are slow to hear.
***
You wrote: “Here's another question I have for you: __ Do you ignore the possibility that maybe it's God putting the desire on YOUR heart to do what you do and not ours? Maybe it's just for you Mike.”
I wouldn’t ignore it if that’s the way the message went. But the message goes NOT that way. God is calling all grads. At this point in time I expect mostly only the older ones to be able to hear it.
Did you see what I posted earlier about Revvel, in post #190? This message involves the Gathering Together. The whole Body of Christ is involved. This is not a mere revival for certain mindsets; it’s the big enchilada. It’s not an individual thing.
***
You wrote: “I'm not here to talk you out of what you believe. I praise God for whatever works for YOU whether I agree with it or not. If it gets you closer to Him, praise Him. I just don't think it's rigth that you tell me what God wants for me. He has a tendency to go right to the source in my life."
But if you haven't learned to hear the big things from God, the REALLY big things, then it's in your favor to have someone tell you the senses message so that you can then hear it directly from God. It always works that way for the really big things. In the first century God could only get the Mystery through to Paul, because it was too big for even Peter to hear it. Look at that quote from the BTMS in Post #198 where it says "Our reason says, 'That just cannot be,'" The really big things we need to hear via the senses first, and thenlater we can hear that it actually has been god trying all along to tell us directly but or world-training our schooling in the adversary's realm leads us to reject it. You may think God gives you warm feelings and winks and mild guidance, but I'm talking about MUCH bigger stuff. We're called to do ALL the things Jesus Christ did, not merely get along with God, feel good about it, and have a nice life.
***
You wrote: “I am in no way saying any of this in a demeaning manner to you.”
Neither am I trying to demean you and your life with God. I'm just declaring that God has MUCH more for us.
I get it that you are not on the attack, otherwise I wouldn’t take you seriously and I'd have to lump you in with the riff raff and cold scolding theologians here. The way I deal with them is either ignore them or show lurking readers how to deal with them. I greatly prefer conversation like you have allowed me.
***
You wrote: “Because of how zealous you are about what you believe, I think you would be better suited to start your own fellowship. Then you could have people who agree with you. Wouldn't it be nice to have people that wanted to agree with you and share your same beliefs?”
I’m already in a fellowship, but I’m not the coordinator. We meet twice a week, and we have regular contact with several of the people I mentioned above who are scattered around the country. I come here for many reasons, at least four I can think of right now, not merely to meet people who want to participate.
***
You wrote: “But what would really be better is if you could accept that people could disagree with you and not be wrong or off the Word.”
Sure. I do that all the time with many things.
However, when it comes to my message that's different. My mesaage is not of my origin. I call it “my” because I have embraced it. It’s from God, so those who disagree with it are disagreeing with God.
This kind of idea is not well accepted as even possible in our culture, where God is relatively forbidden to actually get in touch with anyone directly, and were words are excanged, English words in my case.
Our culture accepts warm feelings about God, and maybe even FROM God, but exact worded messages are strictly taboo. Some accept that God could talk that way to ancient people with robes and sandals and beards (on the men), but that’s strictly forbidden now. Only kooks can claim (and wrongly) that God has an exact text of a message in our culture. It’s another non-Biblical theology, like the strict forbidding of God to work with anyone who doesn’t tow the line on the latest sex rules.
***
You wrote: “It just befuddles me that you would spend so much time to try to convince people who don't agree with you.”
Why doesn’t it befuddle you that the riff raff here spends so much time and energy trying to nullify, camouflage, distort, and mock my message? Why doesn’t it befuddle you that they just CAN'T leave me all by my lonesome to post my message with a few civil, conversational people like you? What do they have to gain by investing so much to thwart me? Do you ever ask them that? I know why they are so hopped up on their anti-Mike mission. My message is from the True God and the adversary hates it so he puls on as many strings he can grab.
***
You wrote: “You might have a more captive audience if you stopped telling people they aren't doing God's will. I view it as YOUR will, not God's.”
I'm telling them that there is a FAR better will to do than what they are presently stuck with. That's good news, or it should be.
Of course you view it as my will. That’s obvious. It’s the expected norm. If you don’t expect anything more than a feelings God to interact with the world, then you MUST think I’m off on my own trip. But why do you embrace such a mediocre theology? Why bother with a God of your own making who can only give backrubs once in a while? Why bother with life if the five senses and human words are all there is?
If you want to see something better than a nice live, try coming back to PFAL and see what is actually written there. Come back and see why all those renegade top leaders, and all the riff raff here, and all the rumor and gossip mongers, are so united and dedicated to seeing people NOT open up PFAL and study it out. Come back and see what is so hated by these people.
Please show specific instances where Oral PFAL (heard through tape and "film" ) is different from "written" PFAL.
Please cite where VPW said that we are only to master written information.
If you want to see something better than a nice live, try coming back to PFAL and see what is actually written there
Please cite from written PFAL the passages that support these claims
PFAL is "God breathed"
We don't need any versions of the Bible anymore, only PFAL.PFAL is the Word of God, that the Holy Spirit has provided us with His Word in written form in PFAL, and it (PFAL) carries all the authority of God Almighty.
Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
Betraying Dr's revelations is betraying God.
Studying PFAL will defeat death.
Also Please fell free to disprove or refute any of the above assertions, as either untrue, or untrue and never stated by you.
I feel that VPW should be the final authority on what PFAL says or doesn't say, after all he wrote the books
This will be of great benefit to new posters who are here for the first time. It will also be of great benefit to myself and other posters who are still waiting for the citations and have been waiting since Feb 9 2006, at 04:11 PM when the original PFAL thread was started.
I"ll, even make a promise to you--Show me from written PFAL where these points are actually supported and I'll find myself copies and reread them. YOU have my word on it -ANd I never break my word
I had asked you if you ignored the possibility that God Almighty Himself was telling Dr to tell us to master PFAL. You responded with: “Yes I do ignore it because Victor Paul Wierwille used the Word of God deceitfully to satisfy his penis.”
That presupposes two things:
that the intensity of the gossip/rumor mill is accurate after 20 plus years of harping,
and that God is as uptight about sex as you are.
[Notice how he transformed the accounts of the victims.
Women who all came forward saying they personally were assaulted,
drugged, or drugged and assaulted. People who were part of
vpw's criminal gang that set up these crimes and covered them up
came forward, ashamed of their actions.
What do we call this?
In a court of law, we call it "a conviction."
In Mikeworld, we call it "gossip/rumours", and "harping".
Also, it's amazing how ignorant Mike is about the wrongness
of sin, and how leaders are supposed to set the example.
Now, being outraged about a minister drugging and raping the flock
is "being uptight", and to be chided, and God may or may not mind
it. Wow. Even the slowest-witted student in catechism can run thru
the Ten Commandments and find "thou shalt not covet thy
neighbor's wife".
No, God may not be "uptight" about ministers drugging and raping
the flock...
Incredible.]
I mean, we all should have known that Dr had sin in his life, because the Word says so. Every person who God ordained as His spokesman has had sin in their lives. It’s a big leap of theology for you to assert, “But not THAT kind of sin!” But really, if you were the devil, how would you try to take down a man of God?
[so, the fact that one minister may cheat on his income tax,
and a different minister stole a box of paperclips from an office shows they sin.
What's the difference between THEIR sinning and
vpw drugging and raping the congregation?
That the Old AND New Testaments have standards a minister must
follow are "a big leap of theology", see,
because Mike needs to belittle them and explain them away.
Now they're not in the Bible, they're instead in your "theology".
I imagine the devil's always trying to "take down" men (and women) of God.
And when one of them abuses his office and uses it to facilitate drugging
and raping women in the congregation,
I call that a successful takedown-that minister is UNFIT.
Guess what? So does the Bible.
But according to Mike, this is just me making noise.]
I’m speaking figuratively, but it’s not quite coming out that way. All I know is that when I look at the teaching, what is actually printed in the books, it has God written all over it.
[He taught some good stuff, therefore he gets a free pass from
following the standards set by God and given to His people in both the
Old and New Testaments.]
Why should I listen to people’s reports and people’s theology and people's scolding, when there is such better material to focus on? The reports and theology are dark and condemning.
[While we're at it, let's dump the testimony of EVERY prophet
in Scripture-they were all so negative, so dark, so condemning.
Ever read Jeremiah or Lamentations? Such a downer.
So, let's scratch out 2 entire books of the Bible.
Of course, vpw condemned such removals right in the pfal
class, but Mike's announced that depressing-sounding stuff
is NOT to be heeded. So, no prophets, no warnings, no
safeguards of any kind.
Let us be consistent!
Mikeworld has no warnings!]
I know of a God Who is forgiving and merciful, and Who is able to work wonderful things with anyone, even sinners, even you and me. I've had enough dark condemnation of religion. Anyone escaping from TWI-2 should have had enough dark condemnation of religion. I’m not only offended by finger pointers, I’m bored silly by them. They have nothing positive to offer.
[The warnings of the Bible are "the dark condemnations of religion."
If there were police reports and rape kit results,
they too would be "the dark condemnations of religion."
Anything that gets between Mike and his message is
"the dark condemnations of religion."]
***
You wrote: “If God really wanted us to master PFAL, He would have told many more than you because Victor has been dead for 20+ years.”
He actually HAS told many more than me. I heard it from others. I didn’t hear it directly from God, not at first, anyway. See my post to T-Bone above, Post # 204, for more on senses hearing leading to spiritual hearing. As far as senses hearing, God told thousands to master PFAL over a ten year span. People are slow to hear.
[in case you missed it, when Mike says
"God told thousands to master PFAL",
he means-in this instance, that vpw said to master the White Book,
and Mike has concluded that this means GOD said to master PFAL.
The heavens didn't open and a voice issue forth...]
***
You wrote: “Here's another question I have for you: __ Do you ignore the possibility that maybe it's God putting the desire on YOUR heart to do what you do and not ours? Maybe it's just for you Mike.”
I wouldn’t ignore it if that’s the way the message went. But the message goes NOT that way. God is calling all grads. At this point in time I expect mostly only the older ones to be able to hear it.
[Translation: YES, Mike IS ignoring the possibility that it's just for HIM
and not a mandate to convert the GSC.]
Did you see what I posted earlier about Revvel, in post #190? This message involves the Gathering Together. The whole Body of Christ is involved. This is not a mere revival for certain mindsets; it’s the big enchilada. It’s not an individual thing.
[Note that he hinted, suggested, implied.
Mike rarely attempts to make a case from the books he claims are
Divine because every time he does, everyone can clearly see
that he's distorting the plain meaning of sentences, and joining
them to other sentences he's isolated and distorted,
resulting in as honest an approach as quoting half a verse
to say that "there is no God."]
***
You wrote: “I'm not here to talk you out of what you believe. I praise God for whatever works for YOU whether I agree with it or not. If it gets you closer to Him, praise Him. I just don't think it's rigth that you tell me what God wants for me. He has a tendency to go right to the source in my life."
But if you haven't learned to hear the big things from God, the REALLY big things, then it's in your favor to have someone tell you the senses message so that you can then hear it directly from God. It always works that way for the really big things. In the first century God could only get the Mystery through to Paul, because it was too big for even Peter to hear it. Look at that quote from the BTMS in Post #198 where it says "Our reason says, 'That just cannot be,'" The really big things we need to hear via the senses first, and thenlater we can hear that it actually has been god trying all along to tell us directly but or world-training our schooling in the adversary's realm leads us to reject it. You may think God gives you warm feelings and winks and mild guidance, but I'm talking about MUCH bigger stuff. We're called to do ALL the things Jesus Christ did, not merely get along with God, feel good about it, and have a nice life.
[Of course, in this case, our Bible also said this can't be,
but don't let that stop you-Mike never does...]
***
You wrote: “I am in no way saying any of this in a demeaning manner to you.”
Neither am I trying to demean you and your life with God. I'm just declaring that God has MUCH more for us.
I get it that you are not on the attack, otherwise I wouldn’t take you seriously and I'd have to lump you in with the riff raff and cold scolding theologians here. The way I deal with them is either ignore them or show lurking readers how to deal with them. I greatly prefer conversation like you have allowed me.
[Of course, WE tried conversation, too. So, it's only a matter of time before
you must either conform to Mike or be labelled "cold" "scolding", etc.
Meanwhile, the lurking readers can read for themselves...]
You wrote: “Because of how zealous you are about what you believe, I think you would be better suited to start your own fellowship. Then you could have people who agree with you. Wouldn't it be nice to have people that wanted to agree with you and share your same beliefs?”
I’m already in a fellowship, but I’m not the coordinator. We meet twice a week, and we have regular contact with several of the people I mentioned above who are scattered around the country. I come here for many reasons, at least four I can think of right now, not merely to meet people who want to participate.
[CONVERTS.
He's here for CONVERTS.]
***
You wrote: “But what would really be better is if you could accept that people could disagree with you and not be wrong or off the Word.”
Sure. I do that all the time with many things.
However, when it comes to my message that's different. My mesaage is not of my origin. I call it “my” because I have embraced it. It’s from God, so those who disagree with it are disagreeing with God.
[in other words,
NO, Mike will NEVER accept people can disagree with him and be right
with God.
Nice try.]
This kind of idea is not well accepted as even possible in our culture, where God is relatively forbidden to actually get in touch with anyone directly, and were words are excanged, English words in my case.
Our culture accepts warm feelings about God, and maybe even FROM God, but exact worded messages are strictly taboo. Some accept that God could talk that way to ancient people with robes and sandals and beards (on the men), but that’s strictly forbidden now. Only kooks can claim (and wrongly) that God has an exact text of a message in our culture.
[That has little, if ANYTHING, to do with ANY objections we've
ever voiced. We've pointed out he contradicts his own "Bible" as
well as the real one, and so on.
He's rewriting our own comments just as he rewrites his "scripture".]
It’s another non-Biblical theology, like the strict forbidding of God to work with anyone who doesn’t tow the line on the latest sex rules.
[Or the oldest sex rules, like "don't rape God's people"...]
***
You wrote: “It just befuddles me that you would spend so much time to try to convince people who don't agree with you.”
[Mike's dedicated his life to wasting it in this fashion
and will not be stayed. If that befuddles you, so be it.]
Why doesn’t it befuddle you that the riff raff here spends so much time and energy trying to nullify, camouflage, distort, and mock my message?
[Label the people and the content of their posts...classic Mike diversion.]
Why doesn’t it befuddle you that they just CAN'T leave me all by my lonesome to post my message with a few civil, conversational people like you?
[This is still a public messageboard...]
What do they have to gain by investing so much to thwart me? Do you ever ask them that? I know why they are so hopped up on their anti-Mike mission. My message is from the True God and the adversary hates it so he puls on as many strings he can grab.
["They disagree with me so they serve Satan." Classic Mike...]
***
You wrote: “You might have a more captive audience if you stopped telling people they aren't doing God's will. I view it as YOUR will, not God's.”
I'm telling them that there is a FAR better will to do than what they are presently stuck with. That's good news, or it should be.
Of course you view it as my will. That’s obvious. It’s the expected norm. If you don’t expect anything more than a feelings God to interact with the world, then you MUST think I’m off on my own trip.
[Mike's said his message was anti-intellect.
Now it's anti-feelings.
Must not be much to it...]
But why do you embrace such a mediocre theology? Why bother with a God of your own making who can only give backrubs once in a while? Why bother with life if the five senses and human words are all there is?
If you want to see something better than a nice live, try coming back to PFAL and see what is actually written there. Come back and see why all those renegade top leaders, and all the riff raff here, and all the rumor and gossip mongers, are so united and dedicated to seeing people NOT open up PFAL and study it out. Come back and see what is so hated by these people.
[Feel free to actually READ it and see where it disagrees with Mike!]
I had to rush the conclusion, but I'm getting back to it.
Of course you view it as my will. That’s obvious. It’s the expected norm. If you don’t expect anything more than a feelings God to interact with the world, then you MUST think I’m off on my own trip. But why do you embrace such a mediocre theology? Why bother with a God of your own making who can only give backrubs once in a while? Why bother with life if the five senses and human words are all there is?
[False dilemna.
Mike is saying one can ONLY choose between mediocrity and the Mikean message.
A) Not only are there MANY other options, but
B) The Mikean notion of "prosperity" rewrites the pfal explanation of "prosperity"
so that you can be broke and "prosper", which is the opposite of what pfal said.]
If you want to see something better than a nice live, try coming back to PFAL and see what is actually written there. Come back and see why all those renegade top leaders, and all the riff raff here, and all the rumor and gossip mongers, are so united and dedicated to seeing people NOT open up PFAL and study it out. Come back and see what is so hated by these people.
[A) What is actually written there is NOT the Mikean message.
By all means, reread it again if you wish.
You'll be surprised that it's not as sparkling as you remember.
We saw that happen with TW:LiL, after all.
C) Almost NOBODY has been saying "don't read pfal."
However,
they HAVE been saying
"don't drink the Mike-flavoured Kool-Aid."
One can read the pfal books just fine without the Mikean spin.
D) Who actually said they "hated pfal" here?
Mike keeps relabelling both the opinions and posts of others,
and keeps claiming pfal contains the Mikean message.
Reality is under no constraint to conform to Mikean rewrites.
Any healthy person should have no difficulty understanding
what's been said plainly TO Mike for page after page.
I’ve had some good conversations with you too. I just started reading your post and though I’d answer the first two lines before I get a little distracted by the rest of your post, and a lot distracted by the tract housing projects after it.
You wrote: “Please show specific instances where Oral PFAL (heard through tape and "film" ) is different from "written" PFAL.”
Here are two major differences, right off the bat, although there are many more.
1) The red drapes are not in the book. A few years ago I started a grand project of a split screen comparison of the two. On the left I have the film class transcript and on the right I have the book text. There are only tiny differences at first, but they mount rapidly as the class progresses. I was very surprised at how many differences there were. Here’s another: for “needs and wants parallel,” the book uses the word “balanced” in place of parallel a few times.
2) The books have far more information than the film class, for the most part. Of course the unforgivable sin was removed entirely from the film class, while there are TWO entire chapters on it, one in PFAL and one in WWAY. The time travel adventures of Paul are only a few lines in the film class, but an entire chapter in the books. I used this feature of the expanded material in the books to taunt posters here for months, even AC Test Ace Students, with their ignorance of the books. The books go into FAR more detail, and with FAR less mistakes.
***
You wrote: “Please cite where VPW said that we are only to master written information.”
Well, as far as I know he never told us to master the soundtrack of the film class, and that’s only logical, because they never released that recording to us to work with. It was always highly controlled and only trusted people got a hold of it for many years. I was one of the ones who helped control it.
Dr DID specifically tell us to master written materials from the class, though.
In 1975 he hinted to the upper leadership in the Ephesians Corps teachings that mastering RHST was a good thing to do by lamenting that hardly ANYONE had done it. In 1979 he stated the NONE of the AC students had done it right, mastered RHST in that red font quote I supplied in Post #187. This tells me that the only ones who had done it were his much older students who were dying off by ’79.
In Sound Out ’84 he told the younger grads that they ought to start mastering some of the books.
In late ’84 and early ’85 he traveled all around the country and world telling people OFTEN that mastering the collaterals was very important, culminating with his Last/Lost teaching where he tells top leadership especially but also including everyone else that they MUST master the written PFAL materials. These were his dying last words, and the teaching was very short, YET he mentions mastering the written TWICE!
Looking at Peter’s and Paul’s dying last words we see them focusing on urging their people to master the written materials too. In II Peter it’s set up in Chapter 1 and the grand finale in Chapter 3 goes into “all” of Paul’s epistles being absolutely crucial to get right. For Paul, the whole of II Timothy is about fighting back against the devil’s moves with the written materials.
Dr set up the Way Corps motto as “It IS Written.” Too bad none of them ever asked WHERE is it written, definitively written and accessible, that is. The ancient scriptures are not accessible, and the modern man-made reconstructions of them are FAR from definitive, shifting about constantly by the latest theological fads in translation and manuscript rating.
It’s even logical that in business written contracts are far more detailed and executable than verbal ones.
Templelady, I wouldn’t say that Dr wanted us to throw away the verbal teaching, but the much greater emphasis was always given to the written.
I could go on in much more detail for both of these major points, but my time is limited. I will read the rest of your post when I get more time, and hopefully have more time to respond. My schedule is sometimes limiting. I don’t even have time to edit this post much, so please excuse any typos.
And don't hold your breath waiting for me to address the other points from the 'Mike Synopsis'... because I won't, I'll just say "I posted these before" or dodge, distract and evade to bring the post to whatever I want.
He'll say it... probably in a lot more words... but please don't hold your breath MO... you don't look as nice when you're purple.
OH... and Mike... you need to take the word "friendly" out of your tagline...
I’ve had some good conversations with you too. I just started reading your post and though I’d answer the first two lines before I get a little distracted by the rest of your post, and a lot distracted by the tract housing projects after it.
You wrote: “Please show specific instances where Oral PFAL (heard through tape and "film" ) is different from "written" PFAL.”
Here are two major differences, right off the bat, although there are many more.
[Actually, they're fairly small differences, considering the volume
of material, but we can pretend they're "major" differences.]
1) The red drapes are not in the book. A few years ago I started a grand project of a split screen comparison of the two. On the left I have the film class transcript and on the right I have the book text. There are only tiny differences at first, but they mount rapidly as the class progresses. I was very surprised at how many differences there were. Here’s another: for “needs and wants parallel,” the book uses the word “balanced” in place of parallel a few times.
[1) The red drapes were left out of the book by the editors.
In their attempts to operate their 5-senses understanding to make the best
book possible-
AS THEY THEMSELVES EXPLAINED ON THE GSC-
they cleaned up tortured examples.
The red drapes incident was unsalvageable, so they trashed it.
It was cited in the class as one of the "textbook" examples of the "law" of believing.
(It was the best he could INVENT because believing is STILL not a "LAW".)
It contained such miserable explanations as
"she had a need, and that need was, they might as well be red drapes."
Small wonder they didn't want that kind of "example" walking around.
Furthermore,
the editors attempted to expand on the taped class' explanations where they were
salvageable but insufficient-thus the word "balanced" at the never-properly-explained
"needs and wants parallel" step. They were on to something, but a full
explanation needed to completely discard the wording used in both the taped class
AND its transcript book.
Yeah-the book was taken FROM the tapes, and the editors worked on it.
At least, that's what THEY said, and I take their PARTICIPANT and EYEWITNESS
accounts over revisionist "history" any day.]
2) The books have far more information than the film class, for the most part. Of course the unforgivable sin was removed entirely from the film class, while there are TWO entire chapters on it, one in PFAL and one in WWAY. The time travel adventures of Paul are only a few lines in the film class, but an entire chapter in the books. I used this feature of the expanded material in the books to taunt posters here for months, even AC Test Ace Students, with their ignorance of the books. The books go into FAR more detail, and with FAR less mistakes.
[ 2a) Duh-the books were improved and expanded upon, and the tapes were NOT.
As for the supposed "time-travel" of Paul, it's due to an ERROR in the book.
Paul speaks of a man he knows, who was "caught away to the third earth."
In the Burnt Umber Book, the man whom Paul knows suddenly morphs
into Paul HIMSELF. This happens more than once.
Now, there are 2 possible explanations for this.
1) Using the "read the verse exactly as it is written",
in English, Greek, Aramaic, etc, rule pfal REQUIRES WE USE,
the man is someone whom Paul knows, and then it's Paul himself.
This means-according to pfal rules- "pfal" has an internal contraction
in that chapter and book, of the "A = ~A" type, meaning it's
unresolvable. This means the Burnt Umber Book has error,
which means it's NOT God-Breathed.
No problem for anybody EXCEPT Mike. vpw wrote it and made a mistake.
Mike pronounces it as Divine Scripture, and so this must be hidden,
justified, or DISTRACTIONS MUST BE BROUGHT INTO PLAY.
2) If we completely discard the rules outlined in pfal,
we can find that one Christian who wrote centuries after Paul wrote
thought that Paul meant himself in this passage.
Mike can't embrace that one for 2 reasons:
a) He must go in the opposite direction as the rules of pfal to take it up
b) If Mike accepts it as true, then Mike must posit that Christians centuries
after the first century AD had the truth,
and Mike's entire premise is based on the idea that the truth
evaporated after 101 AD and remained evanesced until 1943 AD
or thereabouts.
So, no matter how you slice it, Mike faces an internal contradiction
here, either in the book itself, or in the basic Mikean Profession of Faith.
BTW,
when he taunted the posters, he kept positing it as some sort of homework
assignment. The response of all the posters was
"We're not doing your work FOR you. Either make your specifics or
stop the coy gameplaying."
Despite them telling him so outright, Mike has elected to re-imagine
their responses as them scouring the material,
AND missing his answer,
AND agreeing he actually had a legitimate point.
After all, Paul never specifies this event was not a VISION-
he TWICE says HE doesn't know if it was, but only God knows.
However,
where Paul's knowledge falters, Mike's doctrine "fills in the blanks".]
***
You wrote: “Please cite where VPW said that we are only to master written information.”
Well, as far as I know he never told us to master the soundtrack of the film class, and that’s only logical, because they never released that recording to us to work with. It was always highly controlled and only trusted people got a hold of it for many years. I was one of the ones who helped control it.
[THOUSANDS of people "handled the tapes", which is what it means to be at the Mike level
of "helping control it." In case anyone missed it, Mike was never in charge of the
tapes at a national or Region level. Heck, I can say the same of MYSELF, as can MANY
of the posters here. So the comment is gratuitous. Was it meant to make Mike sound
like an insider? The reader can riddle that one out for himself.
As for mastering the soundtrack of the class, it was not an unattainable goal.
Many of us knew when he was going to be building to dramatic finishes,
get to a corny joke, go to the next chart, etc.
If not for the interruption of the "line in the sand" lcm drew, the majority of
us would have had the thing memorized by the mid-90s if not sooner.
I myself used to recite sections as an inside joke.
In fact, one audio class I attended was missing a tape from Session 6,
and when we ended the tapes present, I covered (unprepared) the missing
segment from memory, and the people in charge of the class even said I
covered it all.
Neither the memorization of the tapes nor the books were the key to all
spirituality, though- as Mr Hammeroni has said...he did studies OF the books
by topic and word usage and so on, and there were NO hidden mysteries
for him to find-not from lack of trying.]
Dr DID specifically tell us to master written materials from the class, though.
In 1975 he hinted to the upper leadership in the Ephesians Corps teachings that mastering RHST was a good thing to do by lamenting that hardly ANYONE had done it. In 1979 he stated the NONE of the AC students had done it right, mastered RHST in that red font quote I supplied in Post #187. This tells me that the only ones who had done it were his much older students who were dying off by ’79.
In Sound Out ’84 he told the younger grads that they ought to start mastering some of the books.
In late ’84 and early ’85 he traveled all around the country and world telling people OFTEN that mastering the collaterals was very important, culminating with his Last/Lost teaching where he tells top leadership especially but also including everyone else that they MUST master the written PFAL materials.
[Technically true.
He said that if people wanted to serve, they had to have something
to serve people, and the ONLY thing of any use they could serve
others was the pfal class. He added that Christians outside of twi
didn't have anything worth serving to people.
In short, it was his last cheap-shot at other Christians,
and his last ad for pfal.]
These were his dying last words, and the teaching was very short, YET he mentions mastering the written TWICE!
[iNCORRECT.
Those who actually interacted with vpw in his last few months said
"THE HOPE" was the last teaching he covered for people,
and that came AFTER "the Joy of Serving", which is the one
Mike is quoting.
Mike, however, plain refuses to accept that and just keeps
announcing this in the hopes he can rewrite events by rewriting
people's memories.]
Looking at Peter’s and Paul’s dying last words we see them focusing on urging their people to master the written materials too. In II Peter it’s set up in Chapter 1 and the grand finale in Chapter 3 goes into “all” of Paul’s epistles being absolutely crucial to get right. For Paul, the whole of II Timothy is about fighting back against the devil’s moves with the written materials.
[since it's based on the preceeding false assumption, it's small wonder
Mike went off into left field here.
We do NOT have "Peter's and Paul's dying last words."
Therefore, any speculation on Mike's part as to their
contents are what vpw referred to as "private interpretation."]
Dr set up the Way Corps motto as “It IS Written.” Too bad none of them ever asked WHERE is it written, definitively written and accessible, that is.
[i hope everyone caught that statement of Mike's.
Of course, it COMPLETELY DISCARDS EVERYTHING THE WAY CORPS WAS TAUGHT,
including their 5 Principles.
If Mike ever got ahold of the Heart of the Way Corps tapes, he'd hear
TWO tapes from vpw, where the rather obvious given that they are to
study the BIBLE, and the ENTIRE Bible, and so on.
Of course, all the way corps grads here know this in a fundamentally
obvious way. If Mike knew the way corps like he claims-
like, having been IN it or something-
this would be BLATANTLY OBVIOUS to him as it should be
BLATANTLY OBVIOUS to anyone who EVER heard the way corps
explained BY vpw.]
The ancient scriptures are not accessible, and the modern man-made reconstructions of them are FAR from definitive, shifting about constantly by the latest theological fads in translation and manuscript rating.
[Here's a Mikean assertion,
based on DISCARDING the reverence for the Written Word that was
shoved down the throats of the way corps, college division, etc,
while demonstrating a DRAMATIC LACK of knowledge on the texts.
Even a little reading online would markedly improve his knowledge
on this subject. However, Mike will eschew this, since it undermines
his premise. Without a damaged Bible, there is no NEED for
another gospel-aka Mikean pfal. Since there is no damaged Bible,
the premise that a replacement is needed is nullified.
And having seen the 19th century results (which are grossly
outdated), and having seen Mike mutilate the text of pfal,
I'd trust the 19th century translators with old manuscripts than
I trust the 21st century Mike with the pfal books in plain English.]
It’s even logical that in business written contracts are far more detailed and executable than verbal ones.
Templelady, I wouldn’t say that Dr wanted us to throw away the verbal teaching, but the much greater emphasis was always given to the written.
I could go on in much more detail for both of these major points, but my time is limited. I will read the rest of your post when I get more time, and hopefully have more time to respond. My schedule is sometimes limiting. I don’t even have time to edit this post much, so please excuse any typos.
[Oh, any possible typos are very minor considerations,
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T-Bone
I beg to differ with you on the grounds of the following verses:
John 20:31 ...but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ...NASB
Romans 1:20 ...For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so they are without excuse...NASB
Romans 10:17...so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. NASB
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WordWolf
Mike insinuated I was drawing attention from his other posts.
So I shall draw attention to some of them...
For the complete contents, you can scroll up (you have the
original date/time intact) or click back to view the original post.
This way, you can see if I'm representing his comments
fairly.
[The standard Mikean message, Part I:
that God was silent for nearly 2000 years, working with NO Christian leaders in any
appreciable fashions, not even the ones vpw plagiarized, nor the ones that
vpw learned everything on the holy spirit field from,
but chose out an alcoholic, chain-smoking sex-addict to bestow the greatest
revelation in 2 millenia on,
which consisted of a holy cut-and-paste of the work of
Stiles
Bullinger
Leonard
Kenyon
and Lamsa.
This "greatest revelation in 2000 years is the pfal books."
I KNOW Mike would prefer I phrase it differently,
but that IS exactly the Mikean message.
(The only difference is rephrasing the description of the alcoholic, chain-smoking
sex-addict into something regal-sounding.)]
[dmiller learned a costly lesson.
Seeing vpw's source-material, and learning that he lied about miraculous
snowstorms-which were the sole witness to his divine revelation that
turned out to be a photocopy of the works of others-
taught dmiller a costly lesson.
The disgusting morals of the man who labelled himself a man who
received "the greatest revelation since the First Century" was ANOTHER
lesson-those who serve God don't live in sin, and make occasion to
serve the lusts thereof...and if they did, they would be operating at
cross-purposes with the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.
That's some of what dmiller learned since his foolish youth.]
[dmiller accepted that he'd lost enough to this costly error and cut his losses,
rather than dedicate the rest of his life to attempting to legitimize it and
use it to give the sole meaning to his life.
As such, all the memorizing of the White Book ceased.
The essence of the differences is here:]
[Having seen the dramatic failure of vpw's work on a personal level and an
organization-wide level,
having taken a look at the man behind the curtain,
dmiller saw that he'd been taught some good Bible and some vile doctrine,
and jettisoned the idolatrous, vile doctrine.
Having seen the dramatic failure of vpw's work on a personal level
(vpw claimed ALL Christians should be financially prosperous,
and Mike, the supposed most advanced one of us here,
lives with NO financial prosperity, showing this to have been
either a failure, Mike to be a fraud, or both;
plus vpw himself failed to walk in the calling wherewith he was called,
making occasion for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof,
costing much money in dollars and unpriceable harm to the
beloved sisters in Christ, AND TAUGHT OTHERS TO DO THE SAME),
an organization-wide level
(vpw set up a structure that was unhealthy and lacked checks and balances,
then put the most defective leader in several states as the absolute authority
IN that organization, which led DIRECTLY to the cataclysms which destroyed
the thing and caused it to lose more than 99% of overall membership),
having taken a look at the man behind the curtain,
Mike decided that the fault could NOT have been in vpw NOR pfal,
and devised a set of doctrines that absolved both of error and mistake,
AND elevated both to an idolatrous level ABOVE that of the Bible.
Mike invented a new Gnostic path in order to salvage his happy memories
of his youth.]
[Here's the similarity:
They claim to pick up where vpw left off,
and so do you.
They claim to be the best at interpreting the next step,
and so do you.
They added their own doctrines and changed things as suited them,
you added "hidden" messages and changed the plain text as suited you.
You can claim YOUR path of "hidden wisdom" is superior to theirs,
but it's just ANOTHER Gnostic path among many.
Might as well be elevating JUDAS as elevating vpw...]
The Introduction of the Orange Book said it's a book on KEYS to
Genesis to Revelation, NOT a replacement for it.
The renegade, reprobate Mike says the Orange Book REPLACES Genesis to Revelation.
[The plain meaning of the passages and Mike often run at
cross-purposes with each other,
thus the "HIDDEN MEANINGS" even Mike admits he uses.
The PLAIN MEANINGS being INSUFFICIENT to support Mike's doctrine,
he thus "finds" "hidden" (occulted) meanings that work for him.]
[Lacking the connection that they can claim-of actually KNOWING
vpw and interacting with him for YEARS that they can claim,
the renegade, reprobate Mike does not claim to be their equal
in that respect.
He DOES, however, claim to be the only one among all of US
that has THE special message, the special connection, the
special knowledge. The Mike claims his special Gnostic path.]
[bUT,
whenever other look in the books and study their meaning,
WHEN THEY COME TO OTHER CONCLUSIONS THAN MIKE,
"meekly mastering" Mike blasts them as unfit researchers,
bozos, and so on. The renegade, reprobate Mike will
tolerate NO vision, NO reading of pfal other than the meanings
HE agrees with, that HE finds.]
[but if he ever had enough people to support him,
what would we see? We do not know at this time,
and Mike can't claim we DO, either way.]
[Recent examples of Mike "civilly discussing our differences"...
from ONE post...
"stupid comments"
"mindlessly complain"
"idiot"
"I don't give a rat's foot."
"None of your business!"
"your mindless preferences"
"you condescending xxxx!"
"poorly thought through"
"very insulting derogatory terms"
"trivialities"
"I have a life" (unlike you)
"stupidity"]
*****************
[skipping several paragraphs that simply say
"all the leaders out there are inferior because they fail to pass the standard
invented and implemented BY me of endless review of books they lack
access to", we have the typical Mikean commercial again...]
[Mike's message, in a few paragraphs.
There's some other stuff, but that's the essence of what Mike wants
us to buy. (Leaving out the snow and the lies and the cut-and-pastes
and so on.)]
[Of course, Mike has completely missed that he has given God only
TWO avenues thru which to work-
vpw/pfal and twi-leaders who learned from vpw/pfal,
and is convinced only ONE or the OTHER-
and no THIRD choice-
could possibly hold The Truth.
Mike also misses that others have seriously evaluated Mike's claim about
pfal USING the TOOLS of pfal, and the use of pfal has led them to a conclusion
radically different from his. Since they disagree with what he wants to
believe, they MUST be wrong. Otherwise, Mike's entire life is a waste and an
illusion.]
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Mike
T-Bone,
We were taught that what we CAN know by the five senses God expects us to know.
The first step is to bring in what information we can via the five senses, like reading what is written.
As we master that, stand on it, rely on it, THEN God can directly teach us the spiritual understanding.
The ultimate spiritual understanding or beliefs do not come via the five senses, but the foundational starting points do.
***
Back to your use of scripture, inserting assertions as I did:
I do not assert to have PROVED my point by my insertions, I merely illustrated my point. The proof of my point, as I already posted to you, comes from careful and recent absorption of the PFAL material and the application of it. God can then tell us that we are finally on the right track, giving us our proof privately and individually, and imparting to us the spiritual understanding.
MAYBE I should buy TWO lottery tickets?
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WordWolf
[This is where your system of "hidden messages" falls down.
When we "read what is written" and use our intellects as we can,
pfal clearly says one set of things.
You've just said that the intellect is useless, for YOUR system can't be
intellectually-justified.
Which is true-intellectually, your system is
nonsensical. However, trying to use a book like the Orange Book as
a guide MUST, by DEFINITION, involve the INTELLECT. That's
why your system and the actual text of the Orange Book part company.
Since the intellect's approach to the Orange Book leads to results
DIFFERENT than that of the Mikean system,
you've rejected ALL intellectual approaches,
EVEN THE KEYS TAUGHT IN PFAL, like
"at least 85% explains itself right where it's written."
Therefore, the Mikean system says to "master" books in a non-intellectual way.
And you wonder why you get that look. No, it's not because we're all
lousy Christians. But hey, if it makes you happy, you can keep telling
yourself that...]
[but when the intellectual understanding refutes Mike, then it is tobe "held in abeyance" or discarded. We fell for that ONCE,
not again.
"In vain is the net spread in sight of any bird."]
[Actually,
since vpw claimed FINANCIAL prosperity was one expectation
of understanding God and acting within that understanding,
one of the BEST ways to get our attention would be to erupt
into great financial wealth,
just like vpw said.
Then maybe you'd illustrate:
A) you "arrived" at what he was talking about
B) what he was talking about actually WORKED
I won't hold my breath on that one.
And I'll let Raf refute your mangled misunderstanding of how
he operates on his own.]
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Tom Strange
Mikey, Mikey, Mikey... tsk tsk tsk...
Such nastiness in your words! Oh my! (how is it you get to post a$$ without it being censored anyway?)...
Did I hit a nerve? ...perhaps something a little "too close to home"???
For the life of me, I can't understand why a "messenger of the shepherd er Word er veepee would ever communicate in such a fashion... such invective! such vitriol! (I know that's redundant but it's a figure of speech) ...other figures of speech used in my earlier post (which were apparently lost on you) were irony and sarcasm...
Calm down son... there's nothing to get hung about... if you keep this up you're likely to blow a gasket.
Perhaps it's time to post the "Mike Synopsis" again? Let me know what you think...
Did you not like the line "I'm all done, that'll be $40 and by the way PFAL is God-breathed"???
I think that was one of my better ones... shall we take a census?
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Nottawayfer
Mike,
Have you ever ran in to or met anyone who has done what you think should be done with PFAL?
You asked:
"Do YOU ignore the possibility that God Almighty Himself was telling Dr to tell us to master PFAL?"
Yes I do ignore it because Victor Paul Wierwille used the Word of God deceitfully to satisfy his penis. If God really wanted us to master PFAL, He would have told many more than you because Victor has been dead for 20+ years.
Here's another question I have for you:
Do you ignore the possibility that maybe it's God putting the desire on YOUR heart to do what you do and not ours? Maybe it's just for you Mike.
I'm not here to talk you out of what you believe. I praise God for whatever works for YOU whether I agree with it or not. If it gets you closer to Him, praise Him. I just don't think it's rigth that you tell me what God wants for me. He has a tendency to go right to the source in my life.
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Tom Strange
How nice of you Wayfer... really, I mean it...
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Nottawayfer
Mike,
I am in no way saying any of this in a demeaning manner to you.
Because of how zealous you are about what you believe, I think you would be better suited to start your own fellowship. Then you could have people who agree with you. Wouldn't it be nice to have people that wanted to agree with you and share your same beliefs?
But what would really be better is if you could accept that people could disagree with you and not be wrong or off the Word.
It just befuddles me that you would spend so much time to try to convince people who don't agree with you. You might have a more captive audience if you stopped telling people they aren't doing God's will. I view it as YOUR will, not God's.
God speed.
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doojable
Oh no! This again!
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Tom Strange
stay and play awhile dooj! Mike's just on break... probably looking up more nasty words in his Roget's Thesaurus...
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Goey
WaferNot,
Mike was "sent" to GS to deliver his message. His message is to be directed to OLG's (Older Leader Grads) and is not meant for the masses.
GS probably has the highest density of OLG's to preach to on the Internet so it only makes sense for Mike to post here.
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WordWolf
Plus, all the other boards with OLGs kick him out, so this is all he has left
for his "evangelism".
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Tom Strange
...and oftentimes he is so fun to play with...
THE MIKE SYNOPSIS:
For those of you "new" to Mike-ian logic here is the abbreviated version (so you won't have to lose your sight and mind reading all of his posts):
Mike has stated that: PFAL is 'God's Word reissued'. Mike has stated that this means we don't need any versions of the Bible anymore, only PFAL. Mike has stated that PFAL is the Word of God, that the Holy Spirit has provided us with His Word in written form in PFAL, and it (PFAL) carries all the authority of God Almighty. Mike has offered a 'Table of Challenge' (which he claims exposes things which some would prefer to keep hidden away) so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval. Mike has stated that Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
Mike has stated that betraying Dr's revelations is betraying God. You just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL. Mike has stated that studying PFAL will defeat death.
We now return you to our regularly scheduled program... please feel free to question Mike on any of the points mentioned above...
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doojable
maybe we can play
"PFAL Pictionary!"
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Mike
Wayfer Not,
Howdy. It’s nice to have an actual conversation.
You wrote: “Have you ever ran in to or met anyone who has done what you think should be done with PFAL?”
Yes. Several here; several elsewhere on the Internet, and a couple from my old days in the ministry. They participate at various levels, and a few at the same intensity I do it. The ones I met here don’t discuss it on the boards, though. They don’t like the riff raff and cold scolding theologians that hound me. I don’t blame them. I don't count you in that bunch because you want to discuss things.
***
I had asked you if you ignored the possibility that God Almighty Himself was telling Dr to tell us to master PFAL. You responded with: “Yes I do ignore it because Victor Paul Wierwille used the Word of God deceitfully to satisfy his penis.”
That presupposes two things: that the intensity of the gossip/rumor mill is accurate after 20 plus years of harping, and that God is as uptight about sex as you are. I mean, we all should have known that Dr had sin in his life, because the Word says so. Every person who God ordained as His spokesman has had sin in their lives. It’s a big leap of theology for you to assert, “But not THAT kind of sin!” But really, if you were the devil, how would you try to take down a man of God? I’m speaking figuratively, but it’s not quite coming out that way. All I know is that when I look at the teaching, what is actually printed in the books, it has God written all over it. Why should I listen to people’s reports and people’s theology and people's scolding, when there is such better material to focus on? The reports and theology are dark and condemning. I know of a God Who is forgiving and merciful, and Who is able to work wonderful things with anyone, even sinners, even you and me. I've had enough dark condemnation of religion. Anyone escaping from TWI-2 should have had enough dark condemnation of religion. I’m not only offended by finger pointers, I’m bored silly by them. They have nothing positive to offer.
***
You wrote: “If God really wanted us to master PFAL, He would have told many more than you because Victor has been dead for 20+ years.”
He actually HAS told many more than me. I heard it from others. I didn’t hear it directly from God, not at first, anyway. See my post to T-Bone above, Post # 204, for more on senses hearing leading to spiritual hearing. As far as senses hearing, God told thousands to master PFAL over a ten year span. People are slow to hear.
***
You wrote: “Here's another question I have for you: __ Do you ignore the possibility that maybe it's God putting the desire on YOUR heart to do what you do and not ours? Maybe it's just for you Mike.”
I wouldn’t ignore it if that’s the way the message went. But the message goes NOT that way. God is calling all grads. At this point in time I expect mostly only the older ones to be able to hear it.
Did you see what I posted earlier about Revvel, in post #190? This message involves the Gathering Together. The whole Body of Christ is involved. This is not a mere revival for certain mindsets; it’s the big enchilada. It’s not an individual thing.
***
You wrote: “I'm not here to talk you out of what you believe. I praise God for whatever works for YOU whether I agree with it or not. If it gets you closer to Him, praise Him. I just don't think it's rigth that you tell me what God wants for me. He has a tendency to go right to the source in my life."
But if you haven't learned to hear the big things from God, the REALLY big things, then it's in your favor to have someone tell you the senses message so that you can then hear it directly from God. It always works that way for the really big things. In the first century God could only get the Mystery through to Paul, because it was too big for even Peter to hear it. Look at that quote from the BTMS in Post #198 where it says "Our reason says, 'That just cannot be,'" The really big things we need to hear via the senses first, and thenlater we can hear that it actually has been god trying all along to tell us directly but or world-training our schooling in the adversary's realm leads us to reject it. You may think God gives you warm feelings and winks and mild guidance, but I'm talking about MUCH bigger stuff. We're called to do ALL the things Jesus Christ did, not merely get along with God, feel good about it, and have a nice life.
***
You wrote: “I am in no way saying any of this in a demeaning manner to you.”
Neither am I trying to demean you and your life with God. I'm just declaring that God has MUCH more for us.
I get it that you are not on the attack, otherwise I wouldn’t take you seriously and I'd have to lump you in with the riff raff and cold scolding theologians here. The way I deal with them is either ignore them or show lurking readers how to deal with them. I greatly prefer conversation like you have allowed me.
***
You wrote: “Because of how zealous you are about what you believe, I think you would be better suited to start your own fellowship. Then you could have people who agree with you. Wouldn't it be nice to have people that wanted to agree with you and share your same beliefs?”
I’m already in a fellowship, but I’m not the coordinator. We meet twice a week, and we have regular contact with several of the people I mentioned above who are scattered around the country. I come here for many reasons, at least four I can think of right now, not merely to meet people who want to participate.
***
You wrote: “But what would really be better is if you could accept that people could disagree with you and not be wrong or off the Word.”
Sure. I do that all the time with many things.
However, when it comes to my message that's different. My mesaage is not of my origin. I call it “my” because I have embraced it. It’s from God, so those who disagree with it are disagreeing with God.
This kind of idea is not well accepted as even possible in our culture, where God is relatively forbidden to actually get in touch with anyone directly, and were words are excanged, English words in my case.
Our culture accepts warm feelings about God, and maybe even FROM God, but exact worded messages are strictly taboo. Some accept that God could talk that way to ancient people with robes and sandals and beards (on the men), but that’s strictly forbidden now. Only kooks can claim (and wrongly) that God has an exact text of a message in our culture. It’s another non-Biblical theology, like the strict forbidding of God to work with anyone who doesn’t tow the line on the latest sex rules.
***
You wrote: “It just befuddles me that you would spend so much time to try to convince people who don't agree with you.”
Why doesn’t it befuddle you that the riff raff here spends so much time and energy trying to nullify, camouflage, distort, and mock my message? Why doesn’t it befuddle you that they just CAN'T leave me all by my lonesome to post my message with a few civil, conversational people like you? What do they have to gain by investing so much to thwart me? Do you ever ask them that? I know why they are so hopped up on their anti-Mike mission. My message is from the True God and the adversary hates it so he puls on as many strings he can grab.
***
You wrote: “You might have a more captive audience if you stopped telling people they aren't doing God's will. I view it as YOUR will, not God's.”
I'm telling them that there is a FAR better will to do than what they are presently stuck with. That's good news, or it should be.
Of course you view it as my will. That’s obvious. It’s the expected norm. If you don’t expect anything more than a feelings God to interact with the world, then you MUST think I’m off on my own trip. But why do you embrace such a mediocre theology? Why bother with a God of your own making who can only give backrubs once in a while? Why bother with life if the five senses and human words are all there is?
If you want to see something better than a nice live, try coming back to PFAL and see what is actually written there. Come back and see why all those renegade top leaders, and all the riff raff here, and all the rumor and gossip mongers, are so united and dedicated to seeing people NOT open up PFAL and study it out. Come back and see what is so hated by these people.
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templelady
Please show specific instances where Oral PFAL (heard through tape and "film" ) is different from "written" PFAL.
Please cite where VPW said that we are only to master written information.
Please cite from written PFAL the passages that support these claims
PFAL is "God breathed"
We don't need any versions of the Bible anymore, only PFAL.PFAL is the Word of God, that the Holy Spirit has provided us with His Word in written form in PFAL, and it (PFAL) carries all the authority of God Almighty.
Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
Betraying Dr's revelations is betraying God.
Studying PFAL will defeat death.
Also Please fell free to disprove or refute any of the above assertions, as either untrue, or untrue and never stated by you.
I feel that VPW should be the final authority on what PFAL says or doesn't say, after all he wrote the books
This will be of great benefit to new posters who are here for the first time. It will also be of great benefit to myself and other posters who are still waiting for the citations and have been waiting since Feb 9 2006, at 04:11 PM when the original PFAL thread was started.
I"ll, even make a promise to you--Show me from written PFAL where these points are actually supported and I'll find myself copies and reread them. YOU have my word on it -ANd I never break my word
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WordWolf
[Notice how he transformed the accounts of the victims.
Women who all came forward saying they personally were assaulted,
drugged, or drugged and assaulted. People who were part of
vpw's criminal gang that set up these crimes and covered them up
came forward, ashamed of their actions.
What do we call this?
In a court of law, we call it "a conviction."
In Mikeworld, we call it "gossip/rumours", and "harping".
Also, it's amazing how ignorant Mike is about the wrongness
of sin, and how leaders are supposed to set the example.
Now, being outraged about a minister drugging and raping the flock
is "being uptight", and to be chided, and God may or may not mind
it. Wow. Even the slowest-witted student in catechism can run thru
the Ten Commandments and find "thou shalt not covet thy
neighbor's wife".
No, God may not be "uptight" about ministers drugging and raping
the flock...
Incredible.]
[so, the fact that one minister may cheat on his income tax,
and a different minister stole a box of paperclips from an office shows they sin.
What's the difference between THEIR sinning and
vpw drugging and raping the congregation?
That the Old AND New Testaments have standards a minister must
follow are "a big leap of theology", see,
because Mike needs to belittle them and explain them away.
Now they're not in the Bible, they're instead in your "theology".
I imagine the devil's always trying to "take down" men (and women) of God.
And when one of them abuses his office and uses it to facilitate drugging
and raping women in the congregation,
I call that a successful takedown-that minister is UNFIT.
Guess what? So does the Bible.
But according to Mike, this is just me making noise.]
[He taught some good stuff, therefore he gets a free pass from
following the standards set by God and given to His people in both the
Old and New Testaments.]
[While we're at it, let's dump the testimony of EVERY prophet
in Scripture-they were all so negative, so dark, so condemning.
Ever read Jeremiah or Lamentations? Such a downer.
So, let's scratch out 2 entire books of the Bible.
Of course, vpw condemned such removals right in the pfal
class, but Mike's announced that depressing-sounding stuff
is NOT to be heeded. So, no prophets, no warnings, no
safeguards of any kind.
Let us be consistent!
Mikeworld has no warnings!]
[The warnings of the Bible are "the dark condemnations of religion."
If there were police reports and rape kit results,
they too would be "the dark condemnations of religion."
Anything that gets between Mike and his message is
"the dark condemnations of religion."]
***
[in case you missed it, when Mike says
"God told thousands to master PFAL",
he means-in this instance, that vpw said to master the White Book,
and Mike has concluded that this means GOD said to master PFAL.
The heavens didn't open and a voice issue forth...]
***
[Translation: YES, Mike IS ignoring the possibility that it's just for HIM
and not a mandate to convert the GSC.]
[Note that he hinted, suggested, implied.
Mike rarely attempts to make a case from the books he claims are
Divine because every time he does, everyone can clearly see
that he's distorting the plain meaning of sentences, and joining
them to other sentences he's isolated and distorted,
resulting in as honest an approach as quoting half a verse
to say that "there is no God."]
***
[Of course, in this case, our Bible also said this can't be,
but don't let that stop you-Mike never does...]
***
[Of course, WE tried conversation, too. So, it's only a matter of time before
you must either conform to Mike or be labelled "cold" "scolding", etc.
Meanwhile, the lurking readers can read for themselves...]
[CONVERTS.
He's here for CONVERTS.]
[in other words,
NO, Mike will NEVER accept people can disagree with him and be right
with God.
Nice try.]
[That has little, if ANYTHING, to do with ANY objections we've
ever voiced. We've pointed out he contradicts his own "Bible" as
well as the real one, and so on.
He's rewriting our own comments just as he rewrites his "scripture".]
[Or the oldest sex rules, like "don't rape God's people"...]
***
[Mike's dedicated his life to wasting it in this fashion
and will not be stayed. If that befuddles you, so be it.]
[Label the people and the content of their posts...classic Mike diversion.]
[This is still a public messageboard...]
["They disagree with me so they serve Satan." Classic Mike...]
***
[Mike's said his message was anti-intellect.
Now it's anti-feelings.
Must not be much to it...]
[Feel free to actually READ it and see where it disagrees with Mike!]
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WordWolf
I had to rush the conclusion, but I'm getting back to it.
[False dilemna.
Mike is saying one can ONLY choose between mediocrity and the Mikean message.
A) Not only are there MANY other options, but
B) The Mikean notion of "prosperity" rewrites the pfal explanation of "prosperity"
so that you can be broke and "prosper", which is the opposite of what pfal said.]
[A) What is actually written there is NOT the Mikean message.
By all means, reread it again if you wish.
You'll be surprised that it's not as sparkling as you remember.
We saw that happen with TW:LiL, after all.
C) Almost NOBODY has been saying "don't read pfal."
However,
they HAVE been saying
"don't drink the Mike-flavoured Kool-Aid."
One can read the pfal books just fine without the Mikean spin.
D) Who actually said they "hated pfal" here?
Mike keeps relabelling both the opinions and posts of others,
and keeps claiming pfal contains the Mikean message.
Reality is under no constraint to conform to Mikean rewrites.
Any healthy person should have no difficulty understanding
what's been said plainly TO Mike for page after page.
That Mike either knows it and exercises deceit,
or is not sound enough to know it,
is a matter of opinion.
The readers can judge for themselves.]
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Mike
Hi templelady,
I’ve had some good conversations with you too. I just started reading your post and though I’d answer the first two lines before I get a little distracted by the rest of your post, and a lot distracted by the tract housing projects after it.
You wrote: “Please show specific instances where Oral PFAL (heard through tape and "film" ) is different from "written" PFAL.”
Here are two major differences, right off the bat, although there are many more.
1) The red drapes are not in the book. A few years ago I started a grand project of a split screen comparison of the two. On the left I have the film class transcript and on the right I have the book text. There are only tiny differences at first, but they mount rapidly as the class progresses. I was very surprised at how many differences there were. Here’s another: for “needs and wants parallel,” the book uses the word “balanced” in place of parallel a few times.
2) The books have far more information than the film class, for the most part. Of course the unforgivable sin was removed entirely from the film class, while there are TWO entire chapters on it, one in PFAL and one in WWAY. The time travel adventures of Paul are only a few lines in the film class, but an entire chapter in the books. I used this feature of the expanded material in the books to taunt posters here for months, even AC Test Ace Students, with their ignorance of the books. The books go into FAR more detail, and with FAR less mistakes.
***
You wrote: “Please cite where VPW said that we are only to master written information.”
Well, as far as I know he never told us to master the soundtrack of the film class, and that’s only logical, because they never released that recording to us to work with. It was always highly controlled and only trusted people got a hold of it for many years. I was one of the ones who helped control it.
Dr DID specifically tell us to master written materials from the class, though.
In 1975 he hinted to the upper leadership in the Ephesians Corps teachings that mastering RHST was a good thing to do by lamenting that hardly ANYONE had done it. In 1979 he stated the NONE of the AC students had done it right, mastered RHST in that red font quote I supplied in Post #187. This tells me that the only ones who had done it were his much older students who were dying off by ’79.
In Sound Out ’84 he told the younger grads that they ought to start mastering some of the books.
In late ’84 and early ’85 he traveled all around the country and world telling people OFTEN that mastering the collaterals was very important, culminating with his Last/Lost teaching where he tells top leadership especially but also including everyone else that they MUST master the written PFAL materials. These were his dying last words, and the teaching was very short, YET he mentions mastering the written TWICE!
Looking at Peter’s and Paul’s dying last words we see them focusing on urging their people to master the written materials too. In II Peter it’s set up in Chapter 1 and the grand finale in Chapter 3 goes into “all” of Paul’s epistles being absolutely crucial to get right. For Paul, the whole of II Timothy is about fighting back against the devil’s moves with the written materials.
Dr set up the Way Corps motto as “It IS Written.” Too bad none of them ever asked WHERE is it written, definitively written and accessible, that is. The ancient scriptures are not accessible, and the modern man-made reconstructions of them are FAR from definitive, shifting about constantly by the latest theological fads in translation and manuscript rating.
It’s even logical that in business written contracts are far more detailed and executable than verbal ones.
Templelady, I wouldn’t say that Dr wanted us to throw away the verbal teaching, but the much greater emphasis was always given to the written.
I could go on in much more detail for both of these major points, but my time is limited. I will read the rest of your post when I get more time, and hopefully have more time to respond. My schedule is sometimes limiting. I don’t even have time to edit this post much, so please excuse any typos.
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Tom Strange
Templelady,
I would add to the above post of Mike's:
And don't hold your breath waiting for me to address the other points from the 'Mike Synopsis'... because I won't, I'll just say "I posted these before" or dodge, distract and evade to bring the post to whatever I want.
He'll say it... probably in a lot more words... but please don't hold your breath MO... you don't look as nice when you're purple.
OH... and Mike... you need to take the word "friendly" out of your tagline...
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WordWolf
[Actually, they're fairly small differences, considering the volume
of material, but we can pretend they're "major" differences.]
[1) The red drapes were left out of the book by the editors.In their attempts to operate their 5-senses understanding to make the best
book possible-
AS THEY THEMSELVES EXPLAINED ON THE GSC-
they cleaned up tortured examples.
The red drapes incident was unsalvageable, so they trashed it.
It was cited in the class as one of the "textbook" examples of the "law" of believing.
(It was the best he could INVENT because believing is STILL not a "LAW".)
It contained such miserable explanations as
"she had a need, and that need was, they might as well be red drapes."
Small wonder they didn't want that kind of "example" walking around.
Furthermore,
the editors attempted to expand on the taped class' explanations where they were
salvageable but insufficient-thus the word "balanced" at the never-properly-explained
"needs and wants parallel" step. They were on to something, but a full
explanation needed to completely discard the wording used in both the taped class
AND its transcript book.
Yeah-the book was taken FROM the tapes, and the editors worked on it.
At least, that's what THEY said, and I take their PARTICIPANT and EYEWITNESS
accounts over revisionist "history" any day.]
[ 2a) Duh-the books were improved and expanded upon, and the tapes were NOT.
As for the supposed "time-travel" of Paul, it's due to an ERROR in the book.
Paul speaks of a man he knows, who was "caught away to the third earth."
In the Burnt Umber Book, the man whom Paul knows suddenly morphs
into Paul HIMSELF. This happens more than once.
Now, there are 2 possible explanations for this.
1) Using the "read the verse exactly as it is written",
in English, Greek, Aramaic, etc, rule pfal REQUIRES WE USE,
the man is someone whom Paul knows, and then it's Paul himself.
This means-according to pfal rules- "pfal" has an internal contraction
in that chapter and book, of the "A = ~A" type, meaning it's
unresolvable. This means the Burnt Umber Book has error,
which means it's NOT God-Breathed.
No problem for anybody EXCEPT Mike. vpw wrote it and made a mistake.
Mike pronounces it as Divine Scripture, and so this must be hidden,
justified, or DISTRACTIONS MUST BE BROUGHT INTO PLAY.
2) If we completely discard the rules outlined in pfal,
we can find that one Christian who wrote centuries after Paul wrote
thought that Paul meant himself in this passage.
Mike can't embrace that one for 2 reasons:
a) He must go in the opposite direction as the rules of pfal to take it up
b) If Mike accepts it as true, then Mike must posit that Christians centuries
after the first century AD had the truth,
and Mike's entire premise is based on the idea that the truth
evaporated after 101 AD and remained evanesced until 1943 AD
or thereabouts.
So, no matter how you slice it, Mike faces an internal contradiction
here, either in the book itself, or in the basic Mikean Profession of Faith.
BTW,
when he taunted the posters, he kept positing it as some sort of homework
assignment. The response of all the posters was
"We're not doing your work FOR you. Either make your specifics or
stop the coy gameplaying."
Despite them telling him so outright, Mike has elected to re-imagine
their responses as them scouring the material,
AND missing his answer,
AND agreeing he actually had a legitimate point.
After all, Paul never specifies this event was not a VISION-
he TWICE says HE doesn't know if it was, but only God knows.
However,
where Paul's knowledge falters, Mike's doctrine "fills in the blanks".]
[THOUSANDS of people "handled the tapes", which is what it means to be at the Mike levelof "helping control it." In case anyone missed it, Mike was never in charge of the
tapes at a national or Region level. Heck, I can say the same of MYSELF, as can MANY
of the posters here. So the comment is gratuitous. Was it meant to make Mike sound
like an insider? The reader can riddle that one out for himself.
As for mastering the soundtrack of the class, it was not an unattainable goal.
Many of us knew when he was going to be building to dramatic finishes,
get to a corny joke, go to the next chart, etc.
If not for the interruption of the "line in the sand" lcm drew, the majority of
us would have had the thing memorized by the mid-90s if not sooner.
I myself used to recite sections as an inside joke.
In fact, one audio class I attended was missing a tape from Session 6,
and when we ended the tapes present, I covered (unprepared) the missing
segment from memory, and the people in charge of the class even said I
covered it all.
Neither the memorization of the tapes nor the books were the key to all
spirituality, though- as Mr Hammeroni has said...he did studies OF the books
by topic and word usage and so on, and there were NO hidden mysteries
for him to find-not from lack of trying.]
[Technically true.
He said that if people wanted to serve, they had to have something
to serve people, and the ONLY thing of any use they could serve
others was the pfal class. He added that Christians outside of twi
didn't have anything worth serving to people.
In short, it was his last cheap-shot at other Christians,
and his last ad for pfal.]
[iNCORRECT.Those who actually interacted with vpw in his last few months said
"THE HOPE" was the last teaching he covered for people,
and that came AFTER "the Joy of Serving", which is the one
Mike is quoting.
Mike, however, plain refuses to accept that and just keeps
announcing this in the hopes he can rewrite events by rewriting
people's memories.]
[since it's based on the preceeding false assumption, it's small wonder
Mike went off into left field here.
We do NOT have "Peter's and Paul's dying last words."
Therefore, any speculation on Mike's part as to their
contents are what vpw referred to as "private interpretation."]
[i hope everyone caught that statement of Mike's.Of course, it COMPLETELY DISCARDS EVERYTHING THE WAY CORPS WAS TAUGHT,
including their 5 Principles.
If Mike ever got ahold of the Heart of the Way Corps tapes, he'd hear
TWO tapes from vpw, where the rather obvious given that they are to
study the BIBLE, and the ENTIRE Bible, and so on.
Of course, all the way corps grads here know this in a fundamentally
obvious way. If Mike knew the way corps like he claims-
like, having been IN it or something-
this would be BLATANTLY OBVIOUS to him as it should be
BLATANTLY OBVIOUS to anyone who EVER heard the way corps
explained BY vpw.]
[Here's a Mikean assertion,
based on DISCARDING the reverence for the Written Word that was
shoved down the throats of the way corps, college division, etc,
while demonstrating a DRAMATIC LACK of knowledge on the texts.
Even a little reading online would markedly improve his knowledge
on this subject. However, Mike will eschew this, since it undermines
his premise. Without a damaged Bible, there is no NEED for
another gospel-aka Mikean pfal. Since there is no damaged Bible,
the premise that a replacement is needed is nullified.
And having seen the 19th century results (which are grossly
outdated), and having seen Mike mutilate the text of pfal,
I'd trust the 19th century translators with old manuscripts than
I trust the 21st century Mike with the pfal books in plain English.]
[Oh, any possible typos are very minor considerations,
compared to the content...]
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WordWolf
Hm.
WTH is online and reading this thread,
after being absent for some time.
Looks like Mike is feeling pressured again,
and has contacted WTH again and requested he take some of the heat
off of himself and to use his Posts of Mass Distraction.
If WTH runs true to type, (i.e. is as predictable as always),
we'll see a comment interjected that barely relates to the topic
at hand, and a brace of insults strewn about.
If WTH does not run true to type, (i.e. is slightly less predictable),
we'll get a lengthy cut-and-paste of someone else's thoughts,
off their website which will not be cited in the post.
Well, we should know ANY MINUTE NOW....
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Nottawayfer
Mike,
Thanks for your replies. I disagree with you, but I wish you God speed.
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Mike
Thank YOU, Wafer Not. It's been pleasant. God bless you too.
WW, you crack me up. WHAT drives you to such drivel?
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