There was NOTHING normal about our TWI experience, IMO.
My out-of-TWI experiences have been similar to yours. We left a church because of some major differences between where they were heading and where we wanted to go. A little sadness, no hard feelings, still see some of these folks and love every one of them.
People come and go at our present church. We love them and pray for them and chat when we run into one another. No recriminations. No condemnation. NO M&A.
Another point I'd like to address is questions. I am one who wants to learn the truth and not from any VP clone or worshipper. Therefore, if there's a Sunday School class and I have questions I ask them. If the first answer doesn't settle the question, I ask another one. I can be borderline obnoxious about it. I have assured my pastor that I am not trying to start an argument but just need clarification. He thinks I am a good student.
A bit different from "you don't need any answers. Just speak in tongues." Or "Who are YOU that YOU would question the man of God?" Or "It is impossible to obey God without first obeying your leadership."
This pastor has said three words, more than once, that have earned him my respect. Guess what they are?
"I don't know."
He doesn't know everything. I love that. When did you hear either MOG I or MOG II admit they didn't know?
When we left TWI I felt terrible anxiety and fear. I was convinced God was going to smite me dead because a little ant said it was impossible to exist outside the household of faith.
Contrast this: I ran into a woman who used to attend our church (with her husband). I mentioned I hadn't seen them for a while. Turns out they just wanted more formal and traditional worship and we usually do a contemporary service. They weren't angry, it was a difference in taste.
We still love them. They still love us. Imagine me sticking my nose up in the air and turning my back on her. How would that glorify God Who wants us to be all one body?
Love is normal, IMO. Kindness is normal. Judgment and condemnation are not supposed to be a part of the Body.
To paraphrase Paul Simon, "When I look back on all the crap I learned in TWI, it's a wonder I can think at all."
Exactly wateredgarden...that is exactly how it is supposed to work...and yet we were told that any churches outside of twi were not any good...so many of us still have this implanted idea that...they are you know...part of the body...but kind of like retarded bretheren that must be tolerated for their stupidity.
It is a disservice to the genuin christians, the men and women who live as spiritual beings....
Yet when we talk here about what happened in twi....it never fails that someone turns up and says...your a liar, or that didn`t happen often, or you are making a big deal out of it or that happens everywhere...you didn`t have to put up with it, there were no guns held to your head...always the attempt to minimalize..or someho make what happened seem acceptible.
....or as in the case of what started me on this thread....we are indulging in victim mentality propaganda.
There is an ongoing attempt to blame us for what happened...you should have walked if you didn`t like it...you didn`t have a weapon to your head....and lately...well all the other religious groups are just like this....
I believe that one of the major differences between twi and "normal churches", was that twi claimed to be in direct communication with the Almighty. They used their teachings on revelation to establish their authority and directives as coming straight from "the cookie jar"...most churches teach about being inspired by God but not too many of them claim to be in the same position that Moses was in with the children of Israel!
...and in spite of Wierwille's teachings about the old testament...he, himself used the model of Moses for his role in twi.
THAT's why people found it difficult to leave...and that's why people felt that compliance to twi was the right thing to do. They honestly thought they were obeying God...and Wierwille's sin was that he lied in God's name...
Eventually, when lcm (who didn't quite have the same "Moses" thing going on but wanted to) took over, the behavior became so contrary to what the bible says about Christian behavior...that eventually people began to realize that something was "wrong" and began to wake up from the "twi is God's minsitry" delusion...and began to think again.
I have yet to hear of another reputable *religious group* that has left the swath of death and destruction our ministry has through peoples lives. The only ones that come close are the cults....
I don`t see involvement with other groups that lead to the long term difficulties we face.
My point was....that there is something more intense, something deeply sinister that made us feel it was necessary to submit to the abuse, that convinced us that it was necessary and acceptable...it was for our own good......something that caused us to shut down our reasoning ability ...those inner alarm bells, that blurred those boundary lines....that prevented us from fleeing when subjected to the atrocities :(
Hi again Rascal, it's allways a pleasure, even if it's been a while.
This is a great topic and I'm glad that you started it.
I think you know that while I continue to believe that the grace of God existed in TWI I also believe that the grace of God was perverted beyond recognition, especially in regards to the many things you speak of that I think continue to need to be said.
The methods of destroying people that you speak of are not unique to TWI history, even today one needs to look no farther than how North Koreans are taught to relate to their leader. Those that speak ill of him do so at their own peril. Same with communist China, Iraq under Saddam Hussein, Khazakstan, and any number of countries in the world.
Why in U.S. politics any number of smear tactics that tend to destroy people's reputations are commonplace.
Throughout history within so-called Christianity there have been many dangerous and perverse things done, but then God's Word said they'd happen nearly two thousand years ago, I'm wondering why should we be surprised.
People turning the grace of God into unrestrained lust, decievers, false prophets, and false Christ's were written of as already existing when the scriptures were written. And what was said was that it would only get worse.
I AM VERY THANKFUL THAT YOU'VE CONTINUED TO NOT BEING BULLIED INTO BEING QUIET. I think that if any of these guys had any sense they'd see that with all the terrible mistakes that were made back in the day, the only way any of you would believe in the grace of God in TWI is if you saw the grace of God that used to be in TWI. In the mean time I don't like the bullying that goes on around here, especially when the unfortunate bullying is done by those who speak of the grace of God.
In my little splinter group that I've spoken of often I see fairly clearly how things got so bad. In the earlier days there were things that I was concerned about, but I gave the leader the benefit of the doubt.
Looking back on it it's very clear that long before I was kicked out the leader left being one of the rest of us far behind and both allowed himself to become exhalted and even promoted it. When I was kicked out nobody could say a word against him without being treated with hatred, and that hatred was carefully cultivated in the believers over years of tightly controlled fellowship. Some of the means were more subtle, simply carrying out the old rod and carrot method of training.
In my case, I openly spoke of crappie biblical workmanship and brutally behaving leadership. The only thing that was left for them to do was to do their best do destroy my life, and I also am refering to twisting every knife ( a reference to mental abuse), and not just removing my family from me.
It's clear to me now that someone who's totally committed to being in control is capable of years of carefully building their influence over a group of people (desensitising) and destroying anyone who they deam as a threat. And even worse they're capable of hiding their intentions behind a lot of bible.
They honestly thought they were obeying God...and Wierwille's sin was that he lied in God's name...
I think that says it all for me :(
How many regular churches dictate where you live, what your job requirements are, your housing, require you to show your pay stubs and investigate your finances, require you to go two by two.
How many churches tell you that God requires you to turn your back on your family, God requires that you leave your spouse, God requires you to abort your child, God wants you to service the man of God...
How many of us did these things ... not because WE wanted to.....not because God really required us too...not because it benefited us personally...but because some twi leader got a wild hair up his bu tt??
I have to wonder what it was in twi doctrine that made it possible for it all to go so horribly wrong.
How could such supposedly wonderful christians become cruel and abusive, in spite of their most earnest efforts to be of the *spirit*
You couldn`t find a group more dedicated top prayer, believing, tithing, witnessing studying...in short all of the things supposed top make us so spiritual ....but didn`t help us to avoid the snare.
You have to consider there is something seriously missing from the equations that prevented us from being the men and women that we envisioned ourselves as :(
((((Jeff)))
It is always a pleasure. Thanks for your thoughts. It sounds as if the splinter group, the cruel destruction of your family, the heartless treatment from the people whom were to guide and councel.
It sounds like they still are missing a vital ingredient in the spiritual formula.
PRIDE, GREED, AND LUST HAVE DESTROYED THE EFFECTS OF THE GOOD IN AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE RASCAL. In both themselves and those who fought the good fight with a clear conscience.
I have yet to hear of another reputable *religious group* that has left the swath of death and destruction our ministry has through peoples lives. The only ones that come close are the cults....
Wow, what about the Roman Catholic Church? Just read history and consider what atrocities were committed; 10 times worse than twi.
Not if you were the one being raped, or your brother or sister that died, not if it was your family destroyed, not if it were your children that were sexually and physically abused, or it was you whom were banished, excommunicated to become possessed and die
I don't see you on the forum home page, are you one of those who don't show that you're here?
Personally, I tend to get a lot more grieved by injustice when I see it up close. The history books are hard to get personal about. Even current events on the news are hard to relate to closely, but when people I know have been hurt, or I can relate to it myself I can get more emotional.
When the Lord himself rewards all the murderors, I'm not too certain that those with a little blood on their hands will be treated better than those with a lot of blood on their hands.
So if the Roman Catholic Church did it, it must be okay?
Does the Pope condone such behavior in our day and time? You can't really compare the acceptable "norms" of today to what was acceptable a hundred plus years ago.
I know the Catholic church is guilty of its own share of cover-ups. But does that mean ALL mainstreams chuches are guilty of such? Is pulling out one "mainstream" church and holding it up as an example of them all really accurate?
BTW, the Catholic church has paid a price for their cover-ups, both financially and in the press. So far, TWI seems to have paid a very small price. Again, is that apples to apples?
Abigail, certainly doesn't make it ok, but let's not proclaim that twi is so bad while everyone else is so blameless and harmless... let's remember there's at least one other large and well respected religious group that has much more death and destruction and blood on its hands and in its history even up to the present day Pedophile Priests. Other churches can be investigated for violations as well. But the RC church is the biggest offender.
Your only defense is to point at someone else and whine ....*well they did it too*?
Well gangs, pimps, drug dealers, pedophiles, murderers or any other low life scum that you care to name steal kill and destroy.
The difference between them and wierwille, koreche, jones, moon, and such is that they take, they take in God`s name.
That is why they have power.
We could and normally WOULD stand up and put a fist in the mouth of the guy screaming inches from your face with flecks of spittle hitting you....ignore a persons demand for your pay check, use of your home and facilities, required your services 5 days a week..sell your home and car to get out of debt...you`d tell someone to go straight hell if they required you to leave your spouse....throw your unruly teen out...turn your back on family...you`d tell them to go f-ck themselves if they required that you abort your child....
What we couldn`t do...was say *no* to God when these guys said that was what HE required.... They took what THEY wanted in GOD`S name...I think that is an outrage.
What's interesting.. twi ended up *practically* as bad as the rc's..
maybe they didn't pull off an inquisition, but by self admission "there are those among us who would GLADLY execute you.." if you were alleged to be homosexual, or "unfaithful" "wicked"..
if they lived in medievial society, they WOULD, by their own admission.
When I was a WOW and VPW came to town, he stayed in a motel room and Ted F. stayed next door. My WOW sister was 4th WC and spent some time at the motel with VPW and I was to pick her up at a certain time, which I did. VP sent her next door with Ted and talked to me one on one. He didn't make any overt sexual overtures at all. He was only wearing pajama bottoms, but they were well fastened. He did get me to lie on the bed and he rubbed my back and told me I needed to have more confidence and invited me to apply for the Corps and all. (This was modus operandi for him but of course I didn't know it then - he was the same age as my dad).
Is this the norm? Was he indeed counseling a mere child of God in a Father-in-the-Word manner?
Here's how I figured it out: I attended a church for several years, one of whose pastors was about the same age VPW was then. I tried to picture in my mind Pastor X counseling a young single woman in a motel room lying on a bed with no one else in the room and him wearing only his pajama bottoms.
I knew for an absolute certainty that this good man would NEVER NEVER NEVER dream of doing such a thing! He counsels people in his office, with a third party present if it's a woman, and he is likely as not wearing a suit! THAT is the norm.
The Bible says to avoid even the appearance of evil. That includes everyone who has confessed Christ as their Lord, minister, choir director, MOGFODAT, king.
This stuff was used to build the myth of the specialness, the uniqueness of the MOGFODAT. It's kinda like gilding a turd with melted gold. It may look special, but it's still .... and it still stinks.
All I know is after I was marked and avoided I felt marked.
still do.
and i live in a freedom not granted to many in this world, this is a fact I praise god for in spite of the trouble i had while involved intwi.
It doesnt do me any good toblame twi, oh i could but i rather prefer the mind set of relishing in a changed life for good.
I see people trapped in mind prisons all the time not just church or bible groups.
The reason i had made the mistakes i made intwi is because
I was young and stupid and niave
I thought the people involved loved an wanted the best for me I still believe that.
I didnt know or trust my own self enough to make good choices.
I still very much trusted people to be good people and wanting the best for me.
I lost the ability to believe that last sentence and never got it back and in some ways it is a blessing because i rarely get fooled again and have witnessed many be tormented by the same type of denial i had back then , but i often wonder what my life would have been if i could even for a fraction trust folks again like i did back then.
I still like catholics(i don't like the abuse in the past, no!)
I still like people (well most of them)from The Way International.(i don't like the abuse in the past and even now and future)Baptist, i like them...except not jerry falwell because i like purple teletubbies and have gay friends and relatives.
I like penteostal believers but not jimmy swaggert or jim baker these people that intentionaly HURT people.These so called leader are accountable for these actions and will be judged by GOD,BUT I STILL DO NOT LIKE THEM.
i DON'T BELONG TO ANY GROUPS BUT A CULT IS WORSE THAN ANY RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION I'VE EVER SEEN.
Look at the heart of the person and not at the organization you were once involved in,we are FREE from that.
Abigail, certainly doesn't make it ok, but let's not proclaim that twi is so bad while everyone else is so blameless and harmless... let's remember there's at least one other large and well respected religious group that has much more death and destruction and blood on its hands and in its history even up to the present day Pedophile Priests. Other churches can be investigated for violations as well. But the RC church is the biggest offender.
Oldies, did the Pope condone the pedophile priests? Because in TWI those at the top not only seemed to condone sexual misconduct, but they participated in it and encouraged it.
Also, while I am sure many many mainstream religions have their skeletons in the closet, those are bones to be picked over by those who are so compelled to pick them. I never participated with any of the other religious groups, so my focus is on the one I did participate with - TWI.
Similarly, I don't imagine you spend much time at anti-Catholic websites, or disgruntled Method websites trying to correct information you think is negatively exaggerated, untrue, etc. or pointing out to the posters at such sites that there are other religious groups that are equally bad or worse.
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Watered Garden
There was NOTHING normal about our TWI experience, IMO.
My out-of-TWI experiences have been similar to yours. We left a church because of some major differences between where they were heading and where we wanted to go. A little sadness, no hard feelings, still see some of these folks and love every one of them.
People come and go at our present church. We love them and pray for them and chat when we run into one another. No recriminations. No condemnation. NO M&A.
Another point I'd like to address is questions. I am one who wants to learn the truth and not from any VP clone or worshipper. Therefore, if there's a Sunday School class and I have questions I ask them. If the first answer doesn't settle the question, I ask another one. I can be borderline obnoxious about it. I have assured my pastor that I am not trying to start an argument but just need clarification. He thinks I am a good student.
A bit different from "you don't need any answers. Just speak in tongues." Or "Who are YOU that YOU would question the man of God?" Or "It is impossible to obey God without first obeying your leadership."
This pastor has said three words, more than once, that have earned him my respect. Guess what they are?
"I don't know."
He doesn't know everything. I love that. When did you hear either MOG I or MOG II admit they didn't know?
When we left TWI I felt terrible anxiety and fear. I was convinced God was going to smite me dead because a little ant said it was impossible to exist outside the household of faith.
Contrast this: I ran into a woman who used to attend our church (with her husband). I mentioned I hadn't seen them for a while. Turns out they just wanted more formal and traditional worship and we usually do a contemporary service. They weren't angry, it was a difference in taste.
We still love them. They still love us. Imagine me sticking my nose up in the air and turning my back on her. How would that glorify God Who wants us to be all one body?
Love is normal, IMO. Kindness is normal. Judgment and condemnation are not supposed to be a part of the Body.
To paraphrase Paul Simon, "When I look back on all the crap I learned in TWI, it's a wonder I can think at all."
WG
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rascal
Exactly wateredgarden...that is exactly how it is supposed to work...and yet we were told that any churches outside of twi were not any good...so many of us still have this implanted idea that...they are you know...part of the body...but kind of like retarded bretheren that must be tolerated for their stupidity.
It is a disservice to the genuin christians, the men and women who live as spiritual beings....
Yet when we talk here about what happened in twi....it never fails that someone turns up and says...your a liar, or that didn`t happen often, or you are making a big deal out of it or that happens everywhere...you didn`t have to put up with it, there were no guns held to your head...always the attempt to minimalize..or someho make what happened seem acceptible.
....or as in the case of what started me on this thread....we are indulging in victim mentality propaganda.
There is an ongoing attempt to blame us for what happened...you should have walked if you didn`t like it...you didn`t have a weapon to your head....and lately...well all the other religious groups are just like this....
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GrouchoMarxJr
I believe that one of the major differences between twi and "normal churches", was that twi claimed to be in direct communication with the Almighty. They used their teachings on revelation to establish their authority and directives as coming straight from "the cookie jar"...most churches teach about being inspired by God but not too many of them claim to be in the same position that Moses was in with the children of Israel!
...and in spite of Wierwille's teachings about the old testament...he, himself used the model of Moses for his role in twi.
THAT's why people found it difficult to leave...and that's why people felt that compliance to twi was the right thing to do. They honestly thought they were obeying God...and Wierwille's sin was that he lied in God's name...
Eventually, when lcm (who didn't quite have the same "Moses" thing going on but wanted to) took over, the behavior became so contrary to what the bible says about Christian behavior...that eventually people began to realize that something was "wrong" and began to wake up from the "twi is God's minsitry" delusion...and began to think again.
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rascal
I have yet to hear of another reputable *religious group* that has left the swath of death and destruction our ministry has through peoples lives. The only ones that come close are the cults....
I don`t see involvement with other groups that lead to the long term difficulties we face.
My point was....that there is something more intense, something deeply sinister that made us feel it was necessary to submit to the abuse, that convinced us that it was necessary and acceptable...it was for our own good......something that caused us to shut down our reasoning ability ...those inner alarm bells, that blurred those boundary lines....that prevented us from fleeing when subjected to the atrocities :(
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copenhagen
Wonderful and scary topic Rascal.
Stealing from other posts.
Our background and upbringing have a lot to do with it.
Most of us were looking for God, twi seemed to dazzle us with some scripture never heard before.
The local people were loving and cared.We quit school or a good job to go on some outreach bs program.
We moved, were sent, or followed leadership.
We woke up one day and everything had changed, we were on our way to the promised land(ha-ha).
Fellowships were not loving. love was replaced with fear. Fear lead to constant reproof.
Reproof lead to home invasions and schedueling that must be sent to leadership.
The ride spun out of ccontrol and when we slowed down instaed of feeling better we
saw what road we were taken down and we were lost in a life of how the hell did I get here.
No more its christ in u, you are a son of God, love from people.
Now it is obey, follow, questions are discouraged. To question is to disobey. Love was
replaced with fear. Friends would turn on you so they would not feel the wrath of leadership.
(What is it about twi made us vulnerable and willing to endure the horror?)rascal
We were sold out by now and gave up our friends and family, we were all alone with out twi.
We were kept so busy with 3 fellowships a week, plus witnessing plus cord meetings.
We kept waiting for it to get better and it did not. LCM was coming up with new light ( pure bs)
we thought we were in it for God but twi owned us.
(Why is it that the actions enforced in twi still eat at so many of us 20 years later sad.gif)rascal
Because we gave our heart lives and every ounce of free time to twi only to look behind the curtain
to see no great and powerful leader but a man. A man that cheated on his wife, took advantage of
his sisters in christ and treated people like ..... A man who did not live the word but abused people with it
and made us feel like we had to be so much more spiritual like him and he was a fake.
We lost our child like faith to fear and mistrust, and it makes it hard to trust again.
copenhagen
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JeffSjo
Hi again Rascal, it's allways a pleasure, even if it's been a while.
This is a great topic and I'm glad that you started it.
I think you know that while I continue to believe that the grace of God existed in TWI I also believe that the grace of God was perverted beyond recognition, especially in regards to the many things you speak of that I think continue to need to be said.
The methods of destroying people that you speak of are not unique to TWI history, even today one needs to look no farther than how North Koreans are taught to relate to their leader. Those that speak ill of him do so at their own peril. Same with communist China, Iraq under Saddam Hussein, Khazakstan, and any number of countries in the world.
Why in U.S. politics any number of smear tactics that tend to destroy people's reputations are commonplace.
Throughout history within so-called Christianity there have been many dangerous and perverse things done, but then God's Word said they'd happen nearly two thousand years ago, I'm wondering why should we be surprised.
People turning the grace of God into unrestrained lust, decievers, false prophets, and false Christ's were written of as already existing when the scriptures were written. And what was said was that it would only get worse.
I AM VERY THANKFUL THAT YOU'VE CONTINUED TO NOT BEING BULLIED INTO BEING QUIET. I think that if any of these guys had any sense they'd see that with all the terrible mistakes that were made back in the day, the only way any of you would believe in the grace of God in TWI is if you saw the grace of God that used to be in TWI. In the mean time I don't like the bullying that goes on around here, especially when the unfortunate bullying is done by those who speak of the grace of God.
BULLYING - BAD
HELPING- GOOD
DUUUUUUHHHHHHHH!!!!!
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JeffSjo
In my little splinter group that I've spoken of often I see fairly clearly how things got so bad. In the earlier days there were things that I was concerned about, but I gave the leader the benefit of the doubt.
Looking back on it it's very clear that long before I was kicked out the leader left being one of the rest of us far behind and both allowed himself to become exhalted and even promoted it. When I was kicked out nobody could say a word against him without being treated with hatred, and that hatred was carefully cultivated in the believers over years of tightly controlled fellowship. Some of the means were more subtle, simply carrying out the old rod and carrot method of training.
In my case, I openly spoke of crappie biblical workmanship and brutally behaving leadership. The only thing that was left for them to do was to do their best do destroy my life, and I also am refering to twisting every knife ( a reference to mental abuse), and not just removing my family from me.
It's clear to me now that someone who's totally committed to being in control is capable of years of carefully building their influence over a group of people (desensitising) and destroying anyone who they deam as a threat. And even worse they're capable of hiding their intentions behind a lot of bible.
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rascal
I think that says it all for me :(
How many regular churches dictate where you live, what your job requirements are, your housing, require you to show your pay stubs and investigate your finances, require you to go two by two.
How many churches tell you that God requires you to turn your back on your family, God requires that you leave your spouse, God requires you to abort your child, God wants you to service the man of God...
How many of us did these things ... not because WE wanted to.....not because God really required us too...not because it benefited us personally...but because some twi leader got a wild hair up his bu tt??
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rascal
Copenhagen, all very valid points to consider.
I have to wonder what it was in twi doctrine that made it possible for it all to go so horribly wrong.
How could such supposedly wonderful christians become cruel and abusive, in spite of their most earnest efforts to be of the *spirit*
You couldn`t find a group more dedicated top prayer, believing, tithing, witnessing studying...in short all of the things supposed top make us so spiritual ....but didn`t help us to avoid the snare.
You have to consider there is something seriously missing from the equations that prevented us from being the men and women that we envisioned ourselves as :(
((((Jeff)))
It is always a pleasure. Thanks for your thoughts. It sounds as if the splinter group, the cruel destruction of your family, the heartless treatment from the people whom were to guide and councel.
It sounds like they still are missing a vital ingredient in the spiritual formula.
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JeffSjo
PRIDE, GREED, AND LUST HAVE DESTROYED THE EFFECTS OF THE GOOD IN AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE RASCAL. In both themselves and those who fought the good fight with a clear conscience.
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copenhagen
(How could such supposedly wonderful christians become cruel and abusive, in spite of their most earnest efforts to be of the *spirit*) RASCAL
Well if you are lost and you have a good leader he will get you out of all kinds of trouble.
I have a little military background and I have met fine military people that could get out of any
mess under hostile fire.
There own well being put to the side in one group effort to get everyone out, safe back home.
In these situations you have no agenda but work as a team to get to safety.
Well in twi you had lcm, not a leader but an idiot.
In his duress (pop) I read he wanted to quit and later was on antidepressents.
No care for others he could not care for him self. He is not a leader never was.
Then introduce lc, branch cord's and who ever else drank the kool-aid and
you have your(their) own agenda.= the crulity and abuse.
Very few loved many ruled with fear to keep people under control.
Then idiots who on the good old boy system rose in the corp ranks followed every
thing lcm said to the letter to make life spiritually suck for others.
Many good people were castout (the lucky ones) and others put thru HELL.
copenhagen
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oldiesman
Wow, what about the Roman Catholic Church? Just read history and consider what atrocities were committed; 10 times worse than twi.
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rascal
Not if you were the one being raped, or your brother or sister that died, not if it was your family destroyed, not if it were your children that were sexually and physically abused, or it was you whom were banished, excommunicated to become possessed and die
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JeffSjo
Hi Oldiesman,
I don't see you on the forum home page, are you one of those who don't show that you're here?
Personally, I tend to get a lot more grieved by injustice when I see it up close. The history books are hard to get personal about. Even current events on the news are hard to relate to closely, but when people I know have been hurt, or I can relate to it myself I can get more emotional.
When the Lord himself rewards all the murderors, I'm not too certain that those with a little blood on their hands will be treated better than those with a lot of blood on their hands.
(edited for spelling)
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Abigail
So if the Roman Catholic Church did it, it must be okay?
Does the Pope condone such behavior in our day and time? You can't really compare the acceptable "norms" of today to what was acceptable a hundred plus years ago.
I know the Catholic church is guilty of its own share of cover-ups. But does that mean ALL mainstreams chuches are guilty of such? Is pulling out one "mainstream" church and holding it up as an example of them all really accurate?
BTW, the Catholic church has paid a price for their cover-ups, both financially and in the press. So far, TWI seems to have paid a very small price. Again, is that apples to apples?
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cheranne
TWI is worse than the Army. They make you feel like your in Gods army or Gods team but their
are no benefits,just listen to the master ..you slave and don't question leadership....do this..do that
and if your sick..must be the adversary..snap out of it s.i.t. that 'll occupy your complaining and keep
you sharp and alert,with the four hours of sleep you may get.
The Army may send you too war but they DO TAKE CARE OF THEIR PEOPLE AND THE DEPENDANTS.
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oldiesman
Abigail, certainly doesn't make it ok, but let's not proclaim that twi is so bad while everyone else is so blameless and harmless... let's remember there's at least one other large and well respected religious group that has much more death and destruction and blood on its hands and in its history even up to the present day Pedophile Priests. Other churches can be investigated for violations as well. But the RC church is the biggest offender.
Consider these facts:
Priests of Darkness
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rascal
Your only defense is to point at someone else and whine ....*well they did it too*?
Well gangs, pimps, drug dealers, pedophiles, murderers or any other low life scum that you care to name steal kill and destroy.
The difference between them and wierwille, koreche, jones, moon, and such is that they take, they take in God`s name.
That is why they have power.
We could and normally WOULD stand up and put a fist in the mouth of the guy screaming inches from your face with flecks of spittle hitting you....ignore a persons demand for your pay check, use of your home and facilities, required your services 5 days a week..sell your home and car to get out of debt...you`d tell someone to go straight hell if they required you to leave your spouse....throw your unruly teen out...turn your back on family...you`d tell them to go f-ck themselves if they required that you abort your child....
What we couldn`t do...was say *no* to God when these guys said that was what HE required.... They took what THEY wanted in GOD`S name...I think that is an outrage.
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Ham
What's interesting.. twi ended up *practically* as bad as the rc's..
maybe they didn't pull off an inquisition, but by self admission "there are those among us who would GLADLY execute you.." if you were alleged to be homosexual, or "unfaithful" "wicked"..
if they lived in medievial society, they WOULD, by their own admission.
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Watered Garden
Rascal, you ask "What is the norm?"
When I was a WOW and VPW came to town, he stayed in a motel room and Ted F. stayed next door. My WOW sister was 4th WC and spent some time at the motel with VPW and I was to pick her up at a certain time, which I did. VP sent her next door with Ted and talked to me one on one. He didn't make any overt sexual overtures at all. He was only wearing pajama bottoms, but they were well fastened. He did get me to lie on the bed and he rubbed my back and told me I needed to have more confidence and invited me to apply for the Corps and all. (This was modus operandi for him but of course I didn't know it then - he was the same age as my dad).
Is this the norm? Was he indeed counseling a mere child of God in a Father-in-the-Word manner?
Here's how I figured it out: I attended a church for several years, one of whose pastors was about the same age VPW was then. I tried to picture in my mind Pastor X counseling a young single woman in a motel room lying on a bed with no one else in the room and him wearing only his pajama bottoms.
I knew for an absolute certainty that this good man would NEVER NEVER NEVER dream of doing such a thing! He counsels people in his office, with a third party present if it's a woman, and he is likely as not wearing a suit! THAT is the norm.
The Bible says to avoid even the appearance of evil. That includes everyone who has confessed Christ as their Lord, minister, choir director, MOGFODAT, king.
This stuff was used to build the myth of the specialness, the uniqueness of the MOGFODAT. It's kinda like gilding a turd with melted gold. It may look special, but it's still .... and it still stinks.
WG
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pond
All I know is after I was marked and avoided I felt marked.
still do.
and i live in a freedom not granted to many in this world, this is a fact I praise god for in spite of the trouble i had while involved intwi.
It doesnt do me any good toblame twi, oh i could but i rather prefer the mind set of relishing in a changed life for good.
I see people trapped in mind prisons all the time not just church or bible groups.
The reason i had made the mistakes i made intwi is because
I was young and stupid and niave
I thought the people involved loved an wanted the best for me I still believe that.
I didnt know or trust my own self enough to make good choices.
I still very much trusted people to be good people and wanting the best for me.
I lost the ability to believe that last sentence and never got it back and in some ways it is a blessing because i rarely get fooled again and have witnessed many be tormented by the same type of denial i had back then , but i often wonder what my life would have been if i could even for a fraction trust folks again like i did back then.
i cant anymore
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cheranne
I still like catholics(i don't like the abuse in the past, no!)
I still like people (well most of them)from The Way International.(i don't like the abuse in the past and even now and future)Baptist, i like them...except not jerry falwell because i like purple teletubbies and have gay friends and relatives.
I like penteostal believers but not jimmy swaggert or jim baker these people that intentionaly HURT people.These so called leader are accountable for these actions and will be judged by GOD,BUT I STILL DO NOT LIKE THEM.
i DON'T BELONG TO ANY GROUPS BUT A CULT IS WORSE THAN ANY RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION I'VE EVER SEEN.
Look at the heart of the person and not at the organization you were once involved in,we are FREE from that.
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Abigail
Oldies, did the Pope condone the pedophile priests? Because in TWI those at the top not only seemed to condone sexual misconduct, but they participated in it and encouraged it.
Also, while I am sure many many mainstream religions have their skeletons in the closet, those are bones to be picked over by those who are so compelled to pick them. I never participated with any of the other religious groups, so my focus is on the one I did participate with - TWI.
Similarly, I don't imagine you spend much time at anti-Catholic websites, or disgruntled Method websites trying to correct information you think is negatively exaggerated, untrue, etc. or pointing out to the posters at such sites that there are other religious groups that are equally bad or worse.
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markomalley
(sighs)
why bother any more...
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