Yes, WD.....you are correct, the propaganda term used in the 70's was freely avail themselves......especially if one were to stay in Kansas and never go WOW or into the Corps.
BUT............GreaseSpot offers a forum of discussion than debunks twi's propaganda as real life testimonies expose the escalation of manipulation, coersion, and exploitation. The twi spin can NO LONGER be spun......without being challenged by those of us who were there. Sure, you can stick with your little "propaganda blatherings" but those pigs don't fly around here.
The wierwille cult was NOT the haven it propagated to be.......not spiritually, not socially, not voluntarily. The wheels of controlling agendas were always grinding behind the scenes and far from view of the naive newcomers.
Well said Skyrider. I think my biggest problem with off shoots is that they appear to continue the propaganda machine that prevents folks from actually getting out and meeting people that could provide balance and an honest perspective.
Seems to me.......one doesn't have to look any further than *the big two* -- CES & the Geerite group -- to dismantle JAL's statement. Even after one switched to a twi-lite group, CES, look at it's dogmatic short history..........within a few short years the CES leadership was implementing Momentus, a highly contraversial method of "intervention" or whatever. It had disastorous and lasting effects on many. Later, this CES hierarchy moved towards a Prophet Council, a High Prophetess, personal prophecy, nose-spiders, slanderous "prophecies," marriage mettling, etc. etc.
The geerite group has gone the route of "franchising" its classes.........contracts, fees, extraction percentages of abs, and the constant "measuring stick" of cgeer's oversight. From some who've left, I've heard of the geer-adulation thing andthat *mark/avoid* practices are very similar to twi's.
Just seems like a pecking order goes along with the class/bible/fellowship system......if you DON"T take the class they offer (at a set price), then you are on the short side of the pecking order. It's the nature of the beast. Probably the same for one's financial giving.
I think that offshoots provide a safe place where one can still feel like they are *right*. That they can still feel like they are of value. There is no need to face the tough truths, No need to examine the validity of ones basic spiritual understanding...to change ones behavior if one is surrounded by folks that agree and are patting you on the back as a spiritual giant.
It is why I think that participants get so nasty when people share theiir stories of abuse and the evil nature of the leaders. One must make the victim out to be a liar or somehow deserving of the treatment in order to maintain ones illusion of being spiritually ok.
Describe what is meant by *haven* please?
I guess it could be seen as a *safe* place....but does it necessarily mean healthy?
I think it bothers me that what off shoots teach, separates their adherents from so many wonderful Christians, effectively keeping them contained and under the control of people who don`t bother to find out how to genuinely love and serve the people within their sphere of influence.
If you never leave because the churches are represented by your leaders as worthless, you will never see and be able to compare how genuine Christians love and treat one another.
I think it bothers me that what off shoots teach, separates their adherents from so many wonderful Christians, effectively keeping them contained and under the control of people who don`t bother to find out how to genuinely love and serve the people within their sphere of influence.
If you never leave because the churches are represented by your leaders as worthless, you will never see and be able to compare how genuine Christians love and treat one another.
The knowledge is worthless without the love :(
Not only do they separate their adherents........but "house fellowships" give these offshoot leaders EXCLUSIVE HOUSE RULES that involve a unique set of intimidation and control. After years of twi's bashing on churches, the offshoot follower has a black/white mentality upon entering ANOTHER SET RULES OF ISOLATION.
Isolated more and more............the "heel" tries to survive without the foot or the leg much less the rest of the body.
Yeah Geisha, Great point, on behalf of the churches...I have to say I am offended by Dove`s perception of a place that he has never deigned to visit.
My smaller kids, and my teens and spouse and all of their friends attend a superb bible study every week. Kids come out from town. They are fired up and as dynamic as any fellowship I ever went to, and growing. The ladies in this same little country church raise money at a christmas craft bazzar every year. Guess who paid for my Dr. visit to the specialist when I couldn`t afford it last month?? Guess who took me all the way to Nashville, paid for the gas and took me to lunch afterwards? The retired minister with funds from these ladies. Because I asked?? Oh hell no, but because they found out that I was so terribly ill and unable to pay to even walk through the doors of the special clinic.
The same lady took my kid to the local college last week and introduced her to the people who can get her the money for scholarships and such. Guess who starts college in the fall courtesy of these folks?? Yeah, MY kid.
Thats just what they have done for me this month. Last weekend my teens were with this church helping build a house for a local family who lost everything in the last tornado. I heard recently about an innocent young woman sentenced to 30 years...she wasn`t even FROM this area, but came to this same ministers attention. She and people she knew fought for over 5 years and got the gal not only freed but exonerated and her children returned. We won`t even mention the cancer patient down the road that lives alone and is taken to her bi weekly treatments in Nashville.
Know what else? We are not even members of this church....I might attend a couple of times a year....but hey....thats what Christians do for one another.....as opposed to the posers that play at being Christians in so many of the groups that have their roots in twi.
Oh and think it`s a big metropolitan church with big dollars to burn?? There might be 25 active members.....and look at what they manage to accomplish, the lives impacted compared with twi and it`s millions, or the off shoots with their tens of thousands of members...What the hell good does their precious truth and doctrine that sets them apart REALLY do for anybody except make them arrogant and complacent and absolve them of any responsibility to REALLY act like a christian?
And how exactly would you know what I visit? She has no point to be made she failed to read the post correctly. I spoke of my experiace just as you have here, I also never said it applied to all churches that was her misquote. We were speaking of what makes offshoots havens and I believe it is scriptural teaching and likeminded fellowship . Truth and doctrine is greatly beneficial to the individual in living life. We have Obama to provide social programs for those who are in need of such.
I think it bothers me that what off shoots teach, separates their adherents from so many wonderful Christians, effectively keeping them contained and under the control of people who don`t bother to find out how to genuinely love and serve the people within their sphere of influence.
If you never leave because the churches are represented by your leaders as worthless, you will never see and be able to compare how genuine Christians love and treat one another.
The knowledge is worthless without the love :(
I know of no offshoot that has stated that churches are worthless. Nor have they controlled anyone from attending a church, had you read my previous post you would note that I attended a new one last week. I did so to compare just as you mentioned. I found social gospel and a cup of coffee. A nice building that is designed to pull in young people with flat screens and coffee bars and I'm ok your ok philosophy. It was tried and found wanting of biblical truth. I don't go to church looking for coffee I can buy my own thanks, nor looking for them to meet my needs in life, that's what jobs are for, I go for spiritual truth to be enlightened in the scripture, to be inspired by believers in the Bible not the number one on the best seller of Christian books.
And how exactly would you know what I visit? She has no point to be made she failed to read the post correctly. I spoke of my experiace just as you have here, I also never said it applied to all churches that was her misquote. We were speaking of what makes offshoots havens and I believe it is scriptural teaching and likeminded fellowship . Truth and doctrine is greatly beneficial to the individual in living life. We have Obama to provide social programs for those who are in need of such.
Truth and doctrine is certainly beneficial, but a church should not sacrifice helping people and reaching out to the community for the sake of doctrine, any more than it should sacrifice doctrine for the sake of helping people. It is, after all, what the Lord told us to do. And it's more the job of the church than of the government, although too many people think it's the government's responsibility.
I know of no offshoot that has stated that churches are worthless. Nor have they controlled anyone from attending a church, had you read my previous post you would note that I attended a new one last week. I did so to compare just as you mentioned. I found social gospel and a cup of coffee. A nice building that is designed to pull in young people with flat screens and coffee bars and I'm ok your ok philosophy. It was tried and found wanting of biblical truth. I don't go to church looking for coffee I can buy my own thanks, nor looking for them to meet my needs in life, that's what jobs are for, I go for spiritual truth to be enlightened in the scripture, to be inspired by believers in the Bible not the number one on the best seller of Christian books.
WD,
As much fun as it has been in the past to dispute "Words" with you. . . . your post and meaning were clear enough. I didn't misrepresent what you said. . . . I simply called you on it.
Rascal, Skyrider, et al:
Possibly another reason that the offshoots are so dangerous when it comes to isolation is that it actually keeps ex-cult people who want to continue on toward a Christian life. . . . from mixing with those true Christians who will help them overcome the false teachings and understanding we were indoctrinated with.
They can spot it a mile away and tell a phony, arrogant, cocky, know-it-all, from one who has the loving heart of Christ. Funny, if you tell them that we are not to keep our eyes on Jesus, and all our happy stories about idolatry, they sense something amiss.
If we espouse our superior knowledge of doctrine and back it up with our stunning understanding of big H little h. . . . they want to have a sit down. Further,
once we tell them who Jesus is not. . . all the while having exposed by behavior that we haven't a clue who He is. . . . they pick up on that. Keen sense of . . . . something is really wrong.
However, they can be patient, kind, longsuffering, accepting, and willing to help, something we might not be too familar with. Not lovebombing, but genuine care. I love church, it is where Christians gather to worship, pray, study, learn, and fellowship with one another. It really is a haven.
The church can mean many things. . . a small bible study. . . a larger congregation. . . a state, a country, a world. . . . it is the body of Christ. . . anywhere there are those who believe, love and know Jesus.
I can't speak for all churches. . . but lots of churches keep busy with good works, not at the expense of study, but in tandem with it. They consider service to others part of being a Christian, they do it as a community. . . . wonder where they got THAT crazy idea. :)
Oh, and most ministers are underpaid(emergent church the exception). . . and actually collect money. . . just to give it AWAY!! Nutty people.
I was never involved with any splinter, though the last twig I attended was a bit on the rogue side in regards to "towing the line". I have often said, and this is, of course, just opinion, that the lifestyle that evolved from our involvement played, perhaps, a larger role in our destinies than the actual scriptural tenets we adhered to, such as "four crucified", "Jesus Christ is not God", etc.
Something that I think was overlooked in The Way was the reason believers met as they did in the first (and second and third) centuries. There is speculation as to the actual reasons but, for all intents and purposes, it can probably be summed up as "necessity". They really had nowhere else to meet. Couple that with the persecution and a pattern begins to evolve. These "churches" were autonomous. They didn't emanate from a central location. Early groups during "The Jesus Movement" bore some similarity in that, they too, were decentralized. They had few formal meeting centers and thus they enjoyed a level of autonomy. And, in fact, there were pockets of groups, twigs, inside The Way in the earlier days that were operating in a similar manner. Wierwille changed all that. He centralized everything at HQ. Yes, we continued to meet in homes. We weren't however, "home fellowships" in a strict sense. We were "cells" of a centralized organization. This is one of the biggest realization I garnered from my Fellow Laborer experience. Here we were, living in a commune, pretending to be replicating the lifestyle of the first century "believers" when, in reality, we were living a contradiction. Every move we made was dictated from the outside. That's not how the church existed in the first century.
From what I have observed, many of these so-called splinter groups favor the home meeting format as well but are really nothing more than a perpetuation of the cell group structure. If that's what they really want, more power to them.
I think people need to take an honest look, though, at what they call "home fellowships" and see if that is an accurate description before they decide to declare allegiance.
All I know, is there wasn`t any *Obama* programs for me, and that sometimes working hard isn`t always enough to avert catastrophy. I am just damned glad that I was around people in whom the spirit of God was alive and willing to work....that Loved God and Loved me, because if I had been in a splinter or heaven forbid, twi there certainly would have been plenty of doctrine to figure out ways to blame me for my predicament, people to point fingers of condemnation and ignore the suffering, as was demonstrated so aptly above.
What splinters don`t have, folks must find ways to maligne and dismiss as unimportant. I just know that all of that dry doctrine, no matter how hyped up it is touted to be...without charity is nothing more than a bunch of worthless noise.
As much fun as it has been in the past to dispute "Words" with you. . . . your post and meaning were clear enough. I didn't misrepresent what you said. . . . I simply called you on it.
I think I pretty much know what I said and yoiur verrsion was not a factual representation of what i said.
Geisha, I think that is precisely why people are conditioned to despise churches and the people who attend.
Sure I have met a jerk or two, but it is like the minister said to me once. We are all at our own place in our walk and understanding. We all work together towards that goal of becoming more Christ like in our walk.
I thought that was brilliant, and it helped me tremendously to get over my judgemental attitude and learn to love people where they were, as so many in this church and community have done for me post twi.
I think I pretty much know what I said and yoiur verrsion was not a factual representation of what i said.
Whitedove,
Hi, how are you? Good? I truly hope so. I want to make a quick point here. . . . because I think it is important. I don't want to derail this thread or cause a thread war or what ever, but I want to say this.
When I have had exchanges with you in the past. . . . they have usually turned into this kind of discussion. You said, I said, it means, no it doesn't. I didn't say that. . . you said I said that. . . you misrepresented me. . . . blah blah blah.
Did you EVER consider that this is a learned reaction or tactic?
A disputing over words. Being nearly obsessed with disputes and arguments over words? It is what we did in TWI. . . . while missing the important things of God.
If you want to call churches lacking, social, idolators, uninformed. . . whatever you want. . . do so at your own peril. . . I for one . . . . don't want to play semantics gotcha. . . .
Something that I think was overlooked in The Way was the reason believers met as they did in the first (and second and third) centuries. There is speculation as to the actual reasons but, for all intents and purposes, it can probably be summed up as "necessity". They really had nowhere else to meet. Couple that with the persecution and a pattern begins to evolve. These "churches" were autonomous. They didn't emanate from a central location. Early groups during "The Jesus Movement" bore some similarity in that, they too, were decentralized.
When I reflect back 35 years ago.........in 1974, I was a born-again christian in college. My life was relatively simple, fun and spontaneous. As the year unfolded, I encountered more and more christian groups, bible study groups, eastern religion, and wacky sects. The whole world was opening before my eyes.........and the questions flooded in. A few months later, I was approached by wow ambassadors and six weeks later, signed the green card.
Back in those "early days".......twig fellowships were very caring and simple. Even after taking pfal, I had no desire to write "the teacher".....no desire to listen to sunday teaching tapes......no acceptance of any twi-allegiance. I simply wanted to walk in truth and be well-pleasing to my Father God. There was not one corps person in the state......no sense of a central command of religious authority standing over my shoulder. Life was scintillating.
BUT...........as the months passed, I succombed to the idea of going wow. Slowly, ever-so-slowly, the merging of "serving God equaled signing up others for pfal"........after all, the class held the keys to doors of learning. Rather than embracing THE SIMPLICITY THAT IS IN CHRIST .....I allowed twi's repetitive cliches and networking of faithful followers to pull me into programs, wow & corps, that inch-by-inch, day-by-day seduced me from the true service of a Loving God.
In hindsight, when it's so apparent that wierwille's "central command" was corrupt and deceitful........all those scriptures where Jesus warned us of deceivers, wolves in sheep's clothing, seducers, like angels of light, whited sepulchres, etc. stand as a testament to an Omnipotent God who loves His children. Clearly, the twi-experience is but a couple of chapters in my life...... and only deepens my character, my resolve, my perseverance to shed evil and follow truth.
For me, twi's offshoot ministries hold NO appeal.......NONE.
Even as late as August 2007, one of my friends was getting phone calls from JAL to sign up for MOMENTUS!! What is it with "these people?" From what I see..............such "leaders" are blinded from the truth!!!! Same with cgeer.......selling franchise classes and demanding abs percentages while he sits at a desk in Maine????!!!!!
Call them "havens".....call them "bible studies"......call them "remnants of truth".....whatever, imo, if they have the same micro-management mantra of twi and the absent-christ doctrine, it smells like oppression. No thanks. Been there, done that. I don't need to be "plugged in to some offshoot" to serve, and live, and love.
Hi, how are you? Good? I truly hope so. I want to make a quick point here. . . . because I think it is important. I don't want to derail this thread or cause a thread war or what ever, but I want to say this.
When I have had exchanges with you in the past. . . . they have usually turned into this kind of discussion. You said, I said, it means, no it doesn't. I didn't say that. . . you said I said that. . . you misrepresented me. . . . blah blah blah.
Did you EVER consider that this is a learned reaction or tactic?
A disputing over words. Being nearly obsessed with disputes and arguments over words? It is what we did in TWI. . . . while missing the important things of God.
If you want to call churches lacking, social, idolators, uninformed. . . whatever you want. . . do so at your own peril. . . I for one . . . . don't want to play semantics gotcha. . . .
Take care
Geisha
We have these conversations because you fail to read what is written and try to put words in my mouth. I then have to correct your misrepresentation of what I actually said. Then you seem to think that somehow you know what I said better than me. Case in point
If you want to call churches lacking, social, idolaters, uninformed. . . whatever you want. . . do so at your own peril. . . I for one . . . . don't want to play semantics gotcha. . . .
I never stated any such thing pure fabricated fiction on your part. I spoke from my experience and so noted it ,never did I speak of all churches, you invented that idea all on your own.
Did you EVER consider that this is a learned reaction or tactic?
A disputing over words. Being nearly obsessed with disputes and arguments over words? It is what we did in TWI. . . . while missing the important things of God.
Yes, geisha.........disputing excessively over these "he said/she said" word battles grows tiresome, eh?
So often, I think of Jesus' words......"Beware of the Herodians and the Pharisees"........the political leaders of that day and religious hierarchy seem to adopt the same type of posturing. The party line is, often, more important than the solution.
Yes, geisha.........disputing excessively over these "he said/she said" word battles grows tiresome, eh?
So often, I think of Jesus' words......"Beware of the Herodians and the Pharisees"........the political leaders of that day and religious hierarchy seem to adopt the same type of posturing. The party line is, often, more important than the solution.
Regards.
I could not agree more perhaps if some would have a point rather than trying to take parts of sentences out of context or just plain old make s**t up and imply that a poster said it we all would be less tired.
sooo... as a "haven" (if one calls it that).. what do these splinter groups actually DO? Or offer.. that one can't REALLY find anywhere else?
One I am aware of.. went from a "help you when you get out of the way" "decompression" outfit.. and slowly morphed.. added a big building.. grounds.. structured tiers of classes.. "twigs"..
"training" and "outreach" programs..
one could walk in today, and hear a "worship service", tongues with interpretation and prophecy, indistinguishable from what one heard over twenty years ago.
it looks like der vey, circa 1982.
honestly.. I think people need to move on..
when your time was "done" in the "ministry".. why not just move on, instead trying to recreate a shrine based on only the "good times"?
sooo... as a "haven" (if one calls it that).. what do these splinter groups actually DO? Or offer.. that one can't REALLY find anywhere else?
One I am aware of.. went from a "help you when you get out of the way" "decompression" outfit.. and slowly morphed.. added a big building.. grounds.. structured tiers of classes.. "twigs"..
"training" and "outreach" programs..
one could walk in today, and hear a "worship service", tongues with interpretation and prophecy, indistinguishable from what one heard over twenty years ago.
it looks like der vey, circa 1982.
honestly.. I think people need to move on..
when your time was "done" in the "ministry".. why not just move on, instead trying to recreate a shrine based on only the "good times"?
Ham.........I know, I hear you.
Sure, people want support, fellowship and direction.............but imo, for many individuals, a cycle of guilt needs to be addressed and eliminated. The mogs of twi injected terminolgy.....ie cop-outs, possessed, greasespots, god won't spit at you, your children will die, etc.......to infuse an atmosphere of FEAR and CONTROL. Many...yes, thousands....lived in this cult climate for DECADES where "a cycle of guilt" was deeply etched in their minds.
Of course, there were some wonderful ex-twi leaders who comforted and counseled individuals as they made their exit and into the real world. Thank God for such love, care and concern.
BUT.......other "leaders" had their sights on JOB SECURITY and MONEY. By starting an offshoot ministry..........INSTANT recognition, INSTANT transition, INSTANT income, INSTANT conformity. With little tweaking, it's "business as usual" as long as they "keep the sheep in their fold." THEREFORE......the hireling, needs to instill some fear that there's a big, bad world out there and you can't trust the churches either!!!!!
The cycle of guilt...................is REAL.
The cycle of dependence........is REAL.
Offshoots like these cycles. Offshoots like repeat customers.
I think it is fairly logical that one can not critique honestly something that they have not been a part of.
I believe you failed to read what I said..... I lumped nothing together and referenced nothing "as all."
Perhaps you missed these important parts of my post.
for the most part , For the most part at least in cases I have seen " ,IMHO"
As to offshoots I have stayed fairly in tune with what many are and have been doing through teachings weekly ,monthly, newsletters, personal communication ,books, and personal involvement. I can pretty much tell you with a fair degree of accuracy what the top 25 or so are up to over the last 19 years or so, despite the fact that I only live in Kansas. Some have online live hookups that you can login to as well.
I also make it a point to visit many churches note I did not say every church but a representation of most denominations, in fact last week I just attended a new one the Journey church here. It is a blue jeans and latte kind of church. People can sit out in the coffee shop and watch the service on flat screen televisions if they desire. The large hall adjacent to the auditorium has round tables and bar stools along with a coffee bar. I can personally attest to the fact that many of the churches around here as many I have read about in other places for the past few years have been deeply involved with the new best sellers like the Purpose Drivel Life, The Prayer of Jabez and other such books Not exactly Bibles or scripture. That's fine if free coffee and social commentary are what you want, I don't qualify that as scripture.
Had you read my post the answer to your question was in the following line to the one you quoted
Not that those are necessarily bad things just not at the sacrifice of scripture IMHO. I see many of these havens have progressed toward programs as the years and finances have allowed them. Again it is a matter of what you focus your ministry on some are more interested in soup kitchens than biblical teaching, I think there is a place for both .
I can agree with your logic, but when the same people that were trashing us, were now running the splinter groups, I didn't think I needed to find out if they had changed.
I've spoken to people that were in the Santa Rosa church that split over the influence and effects of all of this. They said it was one of the most difficult experiences they'd ever had and nothing good came of any of it. Money was involved - no surprise there - and questions as to what came in and where it went. I don't really know any of the details firsthand but it sounded pretty weird.
Here's a stow-ry (a true one --- by the way!) about myself, and these *havens*.
So --- the year was (somewhere) in the mid 1990's. I was well out of twi by that time, and concentrating on playing music. Depending on the tune being played (I worked in a square dance band), I was responsible for either fiddle/ mandolin/ or rhythm guitar. We had a job playing at some dance down near the twin cities of Mnpls/ St. Paul. Believe it or not --- out of the clear blue sky I got a phone call from JAL letting me know that he was going to be at a *fellowship* about 15 miles where my band was going to be picking for a buncha folks kicking up their heels that night. It might've been snow on the gas pumps for all I knew. It was just too coincidental.
So I said --- "Sure --- I'll come to the meeting. I'll listen to what you have to say". This was back in the days when he traveled around the countryside letting everyone know about what twi was really like. He held his meeting at the house of Victor Barnard, and had a visiting pastor by the name of Greg Pharis (from a Georgia southern Baptist persuasion) teaching as well. Well -- Victor had his own opinions about the bible, and they didn't mesh with JAL's. Greg was a firm believer in Jesus Is God, and he didn't mesh with JAL either. However --- Greg was *teaching* JAL about personal prophecy, Victor had a house with a buncha folks familiar with twi, and JAL (imo) used those entities to get new recruits.
I was offered (strongly suggested) that I do the Momentus trip by JAL, but I looked him in the eye and said "Not for me!"
Greg gave me a personal prophecy, and it shook me to my bones. It was that right on. No spiders or anything like that.
I've got to admit I've hung out with CES (I guess they are STFI now), but them there days are gone.
The best thing you can do when being confronted with a *splinter*, is walk the other way. :)
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rascal
Well said Skyrider. I think my biggest problem with off shoots is that they appear to continue the propaganda machine that prevents folks from actually getting out and meeting people that could provide balance and an honest perspective.
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skyrider
Are splinter groups "havens" for ex-twiers?
Seems to me.......one doesn't have to look any further than *the big two* -- CES & the Geerite group -- to dismantle JAL's statement. Even after one switched to a twi-lite group, CES, look at it's dogmatic short history..........within a few short years the CES leadership was implementing Momentus, a highly contraversial method of "intervention" or whatever. It had disastorous and lasting effects on many. Later, this CES hierarchy moved towards a Prophet Council, a High Prophetess, personal prophecy, nose-spiders, slanderous "prophecies," marriage mettling, etc. etc.
The geerite group has gone the route of "franchising" its classes.........contracts, fees, extraction percentages of abs, and the constant "measuring stick" of cgeer's oversight. From some who've left, I've heard of the geer-adulation thing andthat *mark/avoid* practices are very similar to twi's.
Just seems like a pecking order goes along with the class/bible/fellowship system......if you DON"T take the class they offer (at a set price), then you are on the short side of the pecking order. It's the nature of the beast. Probably the same for one's financial giving.
<_<
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rascal
I think that offshoots provide a safe place where one can still feel like they are *right*. That they can still feel like they are of value. There is no need to face the tough truths, No need to examine the validity of ones basic spiritual understanding...to change ones behavior if one is surrounded by folks that agree and are patting you on the back as a spiritual giant.
It is why I think that participants get so nasty when people share theiir stories of abuse and the evil nature of the leaders. One must make the victim out to be a liar or somehow deserving of the treatment in order to maintain ones illusion of being spiritually ok.
Describe what is meant by *haven* please?
I guess it could be seen as a *safe* place....but does it necessarily mean healthy?
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rascal
I think it bothers me that what off shoots teach, separates their adherents from so many wonderful Christians, effectively keeping them contained and under the control of people who don`t bother to find out how to genuinely love and serve the people within their sphere of influence.
If you never leave because the churches are represented by your leaders as worthless, you will never see and be able to compare how genuine Christians love and treat one another.
The knowledge is worthless without the love :(
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skyrider
Not only do they separate their adherents........but "house fellowships" give these offshoot leaders EXCLUSIVE HOUSE RULES that involve a unique set of intimidation and control. After years of twi's bashing on churches, the offshoot follower has a black/white mentality upon entering ANOTHER SET RULES OF ISOLATION.
Isolated more and more............the "heel" tries to survive without the foot or the leg much less the rest of the body.
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WhiteDove
And how exactly would you know what I visit? She has no point to be made she failed to read the post correctly. I spoke of my experiace just as you have here, I also never said it applied to all churches that was her misquote. We were speaking of what makes offshoots havens and I believe it is scriptural teaching and likeminded fellowship . Truth and doctrine is greatly beneficial to the individual in living life. We have Obama to provide social programs for those who are in need of such.
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WhiteDove
I know of no offshoot that has stated that churches are worthless. Nor have they controlled anyone from attending a church, had you read my previous post you would note that I attended a new one last week. I did so to compare just as you mentioned. I found social gospel and a cup of coffee. A nice building that is designed to pull in young people with flat screens and coffee bars and I'm ok your ok philosophy. It was tried and found wanting of biblical truth. I don't go to church looking for coffee I can buy my own thanks, nor looking for them to meet my needs in life, that's what jobs are for, I go for spiritual truth to be enlightened in the scripture, to be inspired by believers in the Bible not the number one on the best seller of Christian books.
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Mark Clarke
Truth and doctrine is certainly beneficial, but a church should not sacrifice helping people and reaching out to the community for the sake of doctrine, any more than it should sacrifice doctrine for the sake of helping people. It is, after all, what the Lord told us to do. And it's more the job of the church than of the government, although too many people think it's the government's responsibility.
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geisha779
WD,
As much fun as it has been in the past to dispute "Words" with you. . . . your post and meaning were clear enough. I didn't misrepresent what you said. . . . I simply called you on it.
Rascal, Skyrider, et al:
Possibly another reason that the offshoots are so dangerous when it comes to isolation is that it actually keeps ex-cult people who want to continue on toward a Christian life. . . . from mixing with those true Christians who will help them overcome the false teachings and understanding we were indoctrinated with.
They can spot it a mile away and tell a phony, arrogant, cocky, know-it-all, from one who has the loving heart of Christ. Funny, if you tell them that we are not to keep our eyes on Jesus, and all our happy stories about idolatry, they sense something amiss.
If we espouse our superior knowledge of doctrine and back it up with our stunning understanding of big H little h. . . . they want to have a sit down. Further,
once we tell them who Jesus is not. . . all the while having exposed by behavior that we haven't a clue who He is. . . . they pick up on that. Keen sense of . . . . something is really wrong.
However, they can be patient, kind, longsuffering, accepting, and willing to help, something we might not be too familar with. Not lovebombing, but genuine care. I love church, it is where Christians gather to worship, pray, study, learn, and fellowship with one another. It really is a haven.
The church can mean many things. . . a small bible study. . . a larger congregation. . . a state, a country, a world. . . . it is the body of Christ. . . anywhere there are those who believe, love and know Jesus.
I can't speak for all churches. . . but lots of churches keep busy with good works, not at the expense of study, but in tandem with it. They consider service to others part of being a Christian, they do it as a community. . . . wonder where they got THAT crazy idea. :)
Oh, and most ministers are underpaid(emergent church the exception). . . and actually collect money. . . just to give it AWAY!! Nutty people.
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waysider
I was never involved with any splinter, though the last twig I attended was a bit on the rogue side in regards to "towing the line". I have often said, and this is, of course, just opinion, that the lifestyle that evolved from our involvement played, perhaps, a larger role in our destinies than the actual scriptural tenets we adhered to, such as "four crucified", "Jesus Christ is not God", etc.
Something that I think was overlooked in The Way was the reason believers met as they did in the first (and second and third) centuries. There is speculation as to the actual reasons but, for all intents and purposes, it can probably be summed up as "necessity". They really had nowhere else to meet. Couple that with the persecution and a pattern begins to evolve. These "churches" were autonomous. They didn't emanate from a central location. Early groups during "The Jesus Movement" bore some similarity in that, they too, were decentralized. They had few formal meeting centers and thus they enjoyed a level of autonomy. And, in fact, there were pockets of groups, twigs, inside The Way in the earlier days that were operating in a similar manner. Wierwille changed all that. He centralized everything at HQ. Yes, we continued to meet in homes. We weren't however, "home fellowships" in a strict sense. We were "cells" of a centralized organization. This is one of the biggest realization I garnered from my Fellow Laborer experience. Here we were, living in a commune, pretending to be replicating the lifestyle of the first century "believers" when, in reality, we were living a contradiction. Every move we made was dictated from the outside. That's not how the church existed in the first century.
From what I have observed, many of these so-called splinter groups favor the home meeting format as well but are really nothing more than a perpetuation of the cell group structure. If that's what they really want, more power to them.
I think people need to take an honest look, though, at what they call "home fellowships" and see if that is an accurate description before they decide to declare allegiance.
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mchud11
With consideration to Grease Spot Cafe, I am in haven, er heaven
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rascal
All I know, is there wasn`t any *Obama* programs for me, and that sometimes working hard isn`t always enough to avert catastrophy. I am just damned glad that I was around people in whom the spirit of God was alive and willing to work....that Loved God and Loved me, because if I had been in a splinter or heaven forbid, twi there certainly would have been plenty of doctrine to figure out ways to blame me for my predicament, people to point fingers of condemnation and ignore the suffering, as was demonstrated so aptly above.
What splinters don`t have, folks must find ways to maligne and dismiss as unimportant. I just know that all of that dry doctrine, no matter how hyped up it is touted to be...without charity is nothing more than a bunch of worthless noise.
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WhiteDove
I think I pretty much know what I said and yoiur verrsion was not a factual representation of what i said.
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rascal
Geisha, I think that is precisely why people are conditioned to despise churches and the people who attend.
Sure I have met a jerk or two, but it is like the minister said to me once. We are all at our own place in our walk and understanding. We all work together towards that goal of becoming more Christ like in our walk.
I thought that was brilliant, and it helped me tremendously to get over my judgemental attitude and learn to love people where they were, as so many in this church and community have done for me post twi.
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geisha779
Whitedove,
Hi, how are you? Good? I truly hope so. I want to make a quick point here. . . . because I think it is important. I don't want to derail this thread or cause a thread war or what ever, but I want to say this.
When I have had exchanges with you in the past. . . . they have usually turned into this kind of discussion. You said, I said, it means, no it doesn't. I didn't say that. . . you said I said that. . . you misrepresented me. . . . blah blah blah.
Did you EVER consider that this is a learned reaction or tactic?
A disputing over words. Being nearly obsessed with disputes and arguments over words? It is what we did in TWI. . . . while missing the important things of God.
If you want to call churches lacking, social, idolators, uninformed. . . whatever you want. . . do so at your own peril. . . I for one . . . . don't want to play semantics gotcha. . . .
Take care
Geisha
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skyrider
When I reflect back 35 years ago.........in 1974, I was a born-again christian in college. My life was relatively simple, fun and spontaneous. As the year unfolded, I encountered more and more christian groups, bible study groups, eastern religion, and wacky sects. The whole world was opening before my eyes.........and the questions flooded in. A few months later, I was approached by wow ambassadors and six weeks later, signed the green card.
Back in those "early days".......twig fellowships were very caring and simple. Even after taking pfal, I had no desire to write "the teacher".....no desire to listen to sunday teaching tapes......no acceptance of any twi-allegiance. I simply wanted to walk in truth and be well-pleasing to my Father God. There was not one corps person in the state......no sense of a central command of religious authority standing over my shoulder. Life was scintillating.
BUT...........as the months passed, I succombed to the idea of going wow. Slowly, ever-so-slowly, the merging of "serving God equaled signing up others for pfal"........after all, the class held the keys to doors of learning. Rather than embracing THE SIMPLICITY THAT IS IN CHRIST .....I allowed twi's repetitive cliches and networking of faithful followers to pull me into programs, wow & corps, that inch-by-inch, day-by-day seduced me from the true service of a Loving God.
In hindsight, when it's so apparent that wierwille's "central command" was corrupt and deceitful........all those scriptures where Jesus warned us of deceivers, wolves in sheep's clothing, seducers, like angels of light, whited sepulchres, etc. stand as a testament to an Omnipotent God who loves His children. Clearly, the twi-experience is but a couple of chapters in my life...... and only deepens my character, my resolve, my perseverance to shed evil and follow truth.
For me, twi's offshoot ministries hold NO appeal.......NONE.
Even as late as August 2007, one of my friends was getting phone calls from JAL to sign up for MOMENTUS!! What is it with "these people?" From what I see..............such "leaders" are blinded from the truth!!!! Same with cgeer.......selling franchise classes and demanding abs percentages while he sits at a desk in Maine????!!!!!
Call them "havens".....call them "bible studies"......call them "remnants of truth".....whatever, imo, if they have the same micro-management mantra of twi and the absent-christ doctrine, it smells like oppression. No thanks. Been there, done that. I don't need to be "plugged in to some offshoot" to serve, and live, and love.
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WhiteDove
I never stated any such thing pure fabricated fiction on your part. I spoke from my experience and so noted it ,never did I speak of all churches, you invented that idea all on your own.
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skyrider
Yes, geisha.........disputing excessively over these "he said/she said" word battles grows tiresome, eh?
So often, I think of Jesus' words......"Beware of the Herodians and the Pharisees"........the political leaders of that day and religious hierarchy seem to adopt the same type of posturing. The party line is, often, more important than the solution.
Regards.
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WhiteDove
I could not agree more perhaps if some would have a point rather than trying to take parts of sentences out of context or just plain old make s**t up and imply that a poster said it we all would be less tired.
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Ham
sooo... as a "haven" (if one calls it that).. what do these splinter groups actually DO? Or offer.. that one can't REALLY find anywhere else?
One I am aware of.. went from a "help you when you get out of the way" "decompression" outfit.. and slowly morphed.. added a big building.. grounds.. structured tiers of classes.. "twigs"..
"training" and "outreach" programs..
one could walk in today, and hear a "worship service", tongues with interpretation and prophecy, indistinguishable from what one heard over twenty years ago.
it looks like der vey, circa 1982.
honestly.. I think people need to move on..
when your time was "done" in the "ministry".. why not just move on, instead trying to recreate a shrine based on only the "good times"?
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skyrider
Ham.........I know, I hear you.
Sure, people want support, fellowship and direction.............but imo, for many individuals, a cycle of guilt needs to be addressed and eliminated. The mogs of twi injected terminolgy.....ie cop-outs, possessed, greasespots, god won't spit at you, your children will die, etc.......to infuse an atmosphere of FEAR and CONTROL. Many...yes, thousands....lived in this cult climate for DECADES where "a cycle of guilt" was deeply etched in their minds.
Of course, there were some wonderful ex-twi leaders who comforted and counseled individuals as they made their exit and into the real world. Thank God for such love, care and concern.
BUT.......other "leaders" had their sights on JOB SECURITY and MONEY. By starting an offshoot ministry..........INSTANT recognition, INSTANT transition, INSTANT income, INSTANT conformity. With little tweaking, it's "business as usual" as long as they "keep the sheep in their fold." THEREFORE......the hireling, needs to instill some fear that there's a big, bad world out there and you can't trust the churches either!!!!!
The cycle of guilt...................is REAL.
The cycle of dependence........is REAL.
Offshoots like these cycles. Offshoots like repeat customers.
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eagle709
I can agree with your logic, but when the same people that were trashing us, were now running the splinter groups, I didn't think I needed to find out if they had changed.
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socks
Information on Momentus for the inquiring:
http://www.equip.org/site/c.muI1LaMNJrE/b.....BAF0/DM494.htm
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/9978/faith-or-fad
I've spoken to people that were in the Santa Rosa church that split over the influence and effects of all of this. They said it was one of the most difficult experiences they'd ever had and nothing good came of any of it. Money was involved - no surprise there - and questions as to what came in and where it went. I don't really know any of the details firsthand but it sounded pretty weird.
Buyer beware.
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dmiller
Here's a stow-ry (a true one --- by the way!) about myself, and these *havens*.
So --- the year was (somewhere) in the mid 1990's. I was well out of twi by that time, and concentrating on playing music. Depending on the tune being played (I worked in a square dance band), I was responsible for either fiddle/ mandolin/ or rhythm guitar. We had a job playing at some dance down near the twin cities of Mnpls/ St. Paul. Believe it or not --- out of the clear blue sky I got a phone call from JAL letting me know that he was going to be at a *fellowship* about 15 miles where my band was going to be picking for a buncha folks kicking up their heels that night. It might've been snow on the gas pumps for all I knew. It was just too coincidental.
So I said --- "Sure --- I'll come to the meeting. I'll listen to what you have to say". This was back in the days when he traveled around the countryside letting everyone know about what twi was really like. He held his meeting at the house of Victor Barnard, and had a visiting pastor by the name of Greg Pharis (from a Georgia southern Baptist persuasion) teaching as well. Well -- Victor had his own opinions about the bible, and they didn't mesh with JAL's. Greg was a firm believer in Jesus Is God, and he didn't mesh with JAL either. However --- Greg was *teaching* JAL about personal prophecy, Victor had a house with a buncha folks familiar with twi, and JAL (imo) used those entities to get new recruits.
I was offered (strongly suggested) that I do the Momentus trip by JAL, but I looked him in the eye and said "Not for me!"
Greg gave me a personal prophecy, and it shook me to my bones. It was that right on. No spiders or anything like that.
I've got to admit I've hung out with CES (I guess they are STFI now), but them there days are gone.
The best thing you can do when being confronted with a *splinter*, is walk the other way. :)
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