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Joe, I think you expressed yourself fine. I think we're struggling with the idea that what TWI did is somehow distinguishable from what most groups do. IE, we're talking about ourselves primarily when we're talking about the body of Christ, though we recognize others are part of the body too. We're special because we're the household, the only part of the boy of Christ getting it right. The official doctrine of TWI is that the body is all believers, from the 12 to the last convert before the trumpet.

VPW wrote that in "Christians Should Be Prosperous" or as we've said disparagingly "Christians Believe the Preposterous". https://www.amazon.com/Christians-Should-Prosperous-Victor-Wierwille/dp/0910068658/ref=sr_1_1_so_ABIS_BOOK?crid=CN3UK5C7WKOH&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.jFnxUBdjkeazYzesIel6tw.gOBghEwUDzIzQki4iW1RzHbXO943zbOEsQjo5_TcUWI&dib_tag=se&keywords=christians+should+be+prosperous+victor+paul+wierwille&qid=1748866500&sprefix=christians+should+be+prosperous+victor+paul+wierwille%2Caps%2C86&sr=8-1

I get what you're saying. I ask myself why all these christian denominations? Perhaps because of man's ego ultimately? I remember when my friend (a humble young lady) encouraged me to take the RCIA class (the Rite of Christian Initiation for adults in the Roman Catholic Church) as sort of a 'beginning my journey back to the RC church', she told me in passing that she wished Luther had stayed in the RC church. I've been thinking about that for years and agree with that. As the story goes, he couldn't because he was very focused and dogmatic on what he perceived as RC errors in doctrine and practice that he believed cost people time, money and maybe even their own salvation. He could have stayed and ministered to his flock and encourage change privately and individually, and eat some crow in the process. Had he done that, I certainly do not think it would have cost him his eternal salvation. What do you think?

God's wonderful, matchless word. The word! The word! The word! I wasn't in too deep. I never got to see anyone challenge his understanding of the word. If they don't follow a unity, liberty, charity model like the one I mentioned then it isn't a place for me regardless of what anyone said or did when they were alive 40 years ago.

Btw, I don't project anything on to him. I was in the corps(e) 40 some years ago. I'm not interested in what he would or would not have wanted. I'm interested in what he said and did. From a strictly critical analysis perspective, it was his ministry. His organization. He wasn't about to let anyone disagree with him and get away with it.

Yes, Way Corps is still run out of Camp Gunnison and HQ. (WC 55 as far as I know). They do not mention Stiles, Bullinger or Leonard cause it is so freakin' easy to prove he plagiarized them, if someone just goes to google and writes down "Stiles, Wierwille".

About the Founder In the first paragraph, they fail to mention the two names he plagiarized the most - J.E. Stiles and Bullinger. I don't recognize most of the other men they do list. Did he publicly credit all of these men in his work? Second paragraph is about his academic credentials. Two links concerning Pike's Peak Bible Seminary (aka Burton College) are Pikes Peak Bible Seminary (which mentions vpw) and GSC Thread Pike's Peak Seminary. Third paragraph lists the colleges in Emporia and in Indiana - neither of which were ever accredited and are both now closed. Does anyone know if the corps program is still run out of Camp Gunnison as well as the headquarters in Ohio? This link talks about the accreditation issues around these two places. Camp Gunnison's Accreditation The University of Life outreach courses, an international Biblical studies correspondence school, is mentioned in the final paragraph but I can't see where that is still available. The article closes with the claim that vp held forth the greatness and the accuracy of God’s Word. So the quote "The Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" also meant the Word of God according to vpw. Yet, how many of the classes offered by twi today are the original ones taught by him?

Oldies can answer, of course, but I read that as TWI saying the devil wanting you to prosper is the only way to prosper without tithing - any prosperity without tithing is counterfeit, devilsh. Gaslighting all the way down...

Perhaps I didn't express myself entirely well. TWI openly doesn't claim to be "the only body of Christ," but it acts as if it were, applying certain organizational principles that God established in the Epistles for "The Body of Christ." (The "Household of God" thing, Romans 13 ,etc) The point is that in the first century, Jesus Christ walked among them; they had the twelve apostles as "the direct source." Today, many claim to have the "Rightly divided word" What should the relationship between brothers in Christ from different churches/groups be like? How should Christian groups relate to each other if they have so many doctrinal differences? Could there be a meeting of believers between TWI, CFFM, TLTF (CES), and a Baptist Church (or any other Church)? (I know it sounds utopian, but I use that question to explain what I meant in my first post.)

“Dr.”

Well, I did reference his best days and in PFAL, he couldn't do enough to emphasize the Word and not Time, Look or Life. This would be a great topic to explore. If he got off the Word and made it exclusively about his teaching of the Word, when did that turn take place? As I mentioned, another church doing the same thing this morning. Probably a pattern problem

How sure are you that he did NOT teach that HIS teachings were the Word of God? Whether he ever used those words or not is irrelevant. His actions, his exercise of excommunication ALL consistently DID mean that Victor's words were the Word of God.

I don't get this oldiesman, the devil wanted you to....what?

I think that would be a GREAT question to put to anyone in leadership, there. If they don't subscribe to this maxim, I would want to know why. I'm not going to stick around anyplace a long time judging them, if I don't like it I'll just keep moving. Was listening to Morningstar Fellowship this morning. The speaker made reference to Rick Joyner's claim that those who stay behind in support receive the same reward as those who are sent out. Now, why would he do that!? That's just lazy. Why reference the founder of the ministry instead of the Bible itself!? It's 1 Sam 30:24 It seems the Way still has this problem. They want to play Weekend at Bernie's with Dr Wierwille. I'm pretty sure in his best days Dr Wierwille would not have wanted that. The Word, The Word, The Word! He didn't teach VPW, VPW, VPW!

Do you think this applies to the Way International?

Within twi, there was very little, if any, "willingness to agree to disagree." With William Barlow, he shared that it was some fellow believers who complained about him (i.e., ratted him out) to leadership because they determined he was criticizing and mocking vpw (which he later explained to the leader how that was not what was actually happening). With the second quote of WordWolf (highlighting is mine), he laid out how fear based the control in twi was. Questioning twi doctrine was obviously included in these acts of disobedience and qualified you as not being faithful enough. So beware anyone reading this thread who is currently in twi or is considering becoming involved - listen to the tape. On the tape, one leader "seemed willing" to go through William's questions with him but before that could even begin to happen, Rivenbark was told about it, shut it down and kicked William out of the corps solely for this one reason. It seems most likely that twi knows they are not able to defend vpw's teachings when provided with scriptures. They nip it in the bud, accuse you of thinking you know more than weirwille (which happened to me as well and is considered blasphemy in their eyes), and remain faithful to the man who founded the ministry which now belongs to them.

For the purpose of a serious conversation: "In Essentials Unity, In Nonessentials Liberty, and In All Things Love." This is a widely referenced maxim. Christians have plenty of doctrinal conversations. When it reaches a limit, Christians just split and have two separate groups with the same essential message of Jesus the Christ. Some groups are better than others with regard to liberty. To refer to various sects as separate religions is intellectually dishonest, whatever passion you may feel.

WordWolf and Oldiesman - what I remember too.

Rev Joseph Yoo's take on unity, uniformity, and the glory of God. Facebook

I'll give it Waysider. Most people think of it as "Don't Worry 'Bout Me," but the actual title is "Opus 17." I'd be surprised if WW and Human haven't heard it. Valli (91) is still performing and can still hit the high notes. I saw him live last week. His current "Four Seasons" and the backup band were all much younger, of course. It was a great show. I had forgotten how many great songs they did. George

Interesting question. My first reaction was 'no' - but then I thought about how the Roman Catholic Church allowed the mass to be watered down around 1958 with Vatican 2. IMO the only real way to see this is to attend a traditional latin mass, then go to the new Novus Ordo mass... you will see what I mean. Imagine having a concept for hundreds of years then change it.. it's a topic that's quite debated in RC circles...

I'm pretty sure it's a Frankie Valli tune, but the title evades me.

Agree! And lest we forgot... if one DID prosper while not tithing, it only meant that the Devil wanted you to... LOL

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