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This map will continually update. George

WW glanced by a theory I've been working under for the past few years. I've brought it up before but it bears repeating. I have a suspicion (not enough evidence to call it a theory) that VPW was an unbeliever at heart. In tribute to Mike's thesis about how Wierwille hid great truths in plain sight and we all missed it: He declared himself to be all but atheist after studying the Bible. He no longer believed the words Holy or Bible on the cover (which is grammatically and rhetorically stupid, but you get his point). Being educated about the Bible cause him to all but lose his faith. He said so! What if he never regained it? Bear with me: what if, from that moment forward, it was never about getting God and His Word right, but getting while the getting was good? He got money. He got adoration, He got fame (relative to most of us). He got attention. He got sex. He got power. How much of what he did makes more sense if he didn't believe a word of it but knew how to manipulate people to get what he wanted from them? Every time he discovered a niche, he exploited it. "This book is not some kind of Johnny come lately idea just to be iconoclastic..." [if someone has the correct wording, please let me know. I'll be happy to fix]. Oh it WASN'T? Because it was so shoddy I would think that you were selling a title rather than a book. You have a doctorate. You know how to present and defend a thesis (stop laughing, you in the back row. @#$%ing Snowball Pete). But he was an unbeliever. He KNEW the scholarship about the Bible that people like Bart Ehrman and Dan McClellan are popularizing today. He knew and he stopped believing. And THAT is when the bulls hit started. The funny thing is, it doesn't negate anything he taught. Just his motives. If McClellan and Ehrman are right, the first Christians really weren't Trinitarians. They weren't what Wierwille espoused either, though some were. Jehovah's Witnesses actually got it right, if McClellan and Ehrman are correct. But even that conclusion presupposes a unified message from the New Testament writers. And they weren't unified. Here's the problem Wierwille exposed that a lot of Christianity still gets wrong. There WAS NO FIRST CENTURY CHURCH. There were first century churches. Tons of them. And they disagreed with each other about EVERYTHING. Another topic for another time. Bottom line, I'm increasingly coming to believe that Wierwille's rise and ministry can best be explained by the hypothesis that he was an unbeliever from the moment before he became relevant.

Mmmph This. I was raised with a unitarian theology - not the denomination. It was not reactionary doctrine. It was never anti-trinitarian. There was no axe to grind. It was just obvious for plenty of reasons. I didn't think the idea radical. I didn't need to be sold, but was reproved and corrected anyway for not being meek, for thinking I already knew something when how else could I learn unless I was taught! Exhausting. I couldn't even get through all of JCING, it was so weak, so embarrassing, so cringe.

Some of you might know about The International Cultic Studies Association, which is very helpful to people trapped in cults but want to get out, to those who've left cults, to those born into cults but got out, and families and friends concerned about "innies" they love. I've spoken at a couple of ICSA conferences and got to know one of the organization's executives, Michael Langone, PhD. He promoted Undertow for me and it's sold in the ICSA bookstore. Michael has his own website, too, that offers great info, like powerpoints which succinctly capture main issues with this complex thing we call a "cult." He knows what he's talking about, having spent many years counseling and teaching and working in this field. Here's the link: Michael D. Langone, PhD - PowerPoints, Selected Enjoy! Charlene Edge a.k.a. Penworks

I remember some lines a lot better than others from that movie.

I think- I may be misinformed- that the modern Christian Ecumenical movement started up after World War I and picked up steam here and there since then. I've met with Christians of different groups down the years, and some of them were just fine interacting and working together. That's been true in at least 2 countries as far as my personal experience goes. (I can't vouch for what I haven't personally experienced, but I would be highly skeptical if someone claimed I found the only Christians in both countries that are cool to work together.)

It was taught in twi- and in NYC in twi when both you and I were in- that if someone was an ordained minister, and later resigned, they forfeited all their rewards from God. No explanation nor verses were mentioned with this, of course. As far as twi is concerned, you leave twi, and God will take away everything, period. That may include your life, and those of your loved ones! As you pointed out, twi's answer if you left and prospered, was that the devil was causing you to prosper, since they already said God wasn't going to do it. As I see it, twi has been out of God's operations, and has been made to prosper by the devil- when they prospered.

"...it's not even a sin to eat meat on Fridays anymore..... but I bet there's still guys in hell on a meat rap! 'I thought it was retro-active! I ate a baloney sandwich. This guy had a beef jerky.' How'd you like to do Eternity for a beef jerky?"

To be bluntly honest, out of all the books carrying vpw's name, that one was so shoddy I would expect it to be the one most written by him, and least written by others. I think he may have used some basic reference books in the beginning, including the Encyclopedia Brittanica, but that seemed to be it. JCOP and JCOPS were well-written- and were done by the research department. vpw came along later, added the intros, and put his name on the covers. The Studies in Abundant Living were basically typewritten sermons- transcripts of some teachings he did, later edited as well. Those read like sermons. (Some of their content was obviously plagiarized, also.) The Orange Book and the White Book had contents directly taken from Leonard, Stiles and Bullinger, mixed and matched a bit here and there. But JCING was almost a vanity project. (He left signed copies at church doors once.)

What's the difference between sincerity and insincerity? Anyone should be able to tell you. Someone who is sincere means what they say, and someone who is insincere does not mean what they say. So, a man intentionally selling shoddy material, and knowing it is shoddy, can make an impassioned diatribe about how fine the products are- but he would not be SINCERE. He would be FAKING by making a FALSE DISPLAY resembling sincerity. vpw spoke a number of times on what sincerity was, including from the ROA main stage, where the microphones recorded him for posterity. He said that the man who tries to sell you a toothbrush with only one bristle on it has to be REALLY sincere. Why do I make a point of this? it's simple once you look at it. To vpw, for him to be "sincere" was a matter of THE APPEARANCE of sincerity, and NOT THE REALITY of sincerity, NO SUBSTANCE to his "sincerity." vpw carried on, in effect, as 2 people. When in private, he was a petty, venal, greedy man, an alcoholic, a plagiarist, a molester and a rapist. (And so on.) When he was in public, he stepped into character as if he was performing on stage. When the cameras were on, he was a humble servant of God, who cared only about what God cared about, and knew that a man should neither molest nor rape women. (It was IMPLIED in CFS.) That's why the real vpw made it mandatory for all pfal students to begin by studying the booklet on why they should tithe, and came up with "abundant sharing" and pushed that a lot, and why he was unique in all of Christendom and came up with "plurality giving", which was his term and concept- where you figure out exactly what you need for day-to-day living, and donate ALL THE REST OF YOUR MONEY to twi. No saving, no investing, no putting aside to buy newer or nicer things. vpw never "turned from" a humble, dedicated service to God because he never began on that path. He began by looking for a career with the least work and the most possible benefit that he could manage. From there, he used people and used up people, and found financial and temporal benefits in doing so- at their expense. Perhaps there will be a place for him in the special hell- where they send child molesters and people who talk in the theater.

Before you ever heard of him. It comes as a shock to a lot of people when they see many of the details that were kept out of the public eye. (It certainly was a shock to me, long ago!) According to vpw's own account, before he went into the ministry/church work, he considered a few different careers- business, entertainment, and ministry. He decided on ministry. (No, it wasn't a calling.) One of the more shocking things, for me, was right in "the Way- Living in Love." That was when vpw admitted that he had gone to divinity school, had been assigned a congregation, and had been giving weekly sermons FOR ABOUT A YEAR... BEFORE EVER BELIEVING THE BIBLE WAS GOD'S WORD. Furthermore, in his first 2 years as a pastor, he TWICE considered just giving up. Ever hear how he spoke about OTHER people who thought about giving up? He said they weren't worthy to be Christians. It continues from there. He made decisions consistently purely on the financial sense. When he heard about BG Leonard's class, he contacted Leonard, who told him a class was already in progress, and to contact him after it ended. vpw immediately traveled to where he was teaching the class, and demanded to be allowed to join the current one. He retook it a few months later. Then vpw asked for permission to teach Leonard's class on "the Gifts of the Spirit" on a one-time basis, locally. Leonard agreed. A few months later, Leonard received a photo of the grads of "his" class, and was told it went well. The end. As for vpw, when he began the class, he told all the students it was his OWN class on "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." After that, vpw continued to teach Leonard's class, calling it his own. He continued to change it, and called it PFAL. He added a lot of material from Bullinger, primarily from "How to Enjoy the Bible." vpw also took Stiles' book on "Gifts of the Holy Spirit" and repackaged it as the White Book, "Recieving the Holy Spirit Today." Later editions of the book include a changed introduction- with the change making it sound like it was all a book that was the result of vpw and God and nobody else's work- but the earlier editions mentioned an anonymous man vpw found eventually who could teach him this subject. That man was Stiles- who taught him face to face, and whose book vpw ripped off entirely. BTW, the reason the definitions of the manifestations sound so cumbersome is that vpw kept changing them to make them sound different from Leonard's, but never changed them to reflect a deeper understanding of them, or even a clearer explanation. The little group grew very slowly. When vpw heard about the House of Acts Christians, he rushed over there. He performed his full act, and managed to convince many of the kids there that himself was some great one. He took a new, vibrant movement of God's people and strangled it, diverting many of the early people into becoming the sales force for twi. Many of them taught new people, who taught other new people. This was an unintended consequence- they were just supposed to sell people on pfal and twig and tithing. Ever have a really blessed time at twi? That was the accidental result of those people teaching others, and those people teaching still others. WHEN THE CAMERAS WERE ON, vpw was a humble man who didn't care about his own name, and was entirely about God's Word. WHEN THE CAMERAS WERE OFF, it was either his way or the highway. He kicked out an entire year of the corps, then the next day allowed them to rejoin- if they'd swear allegiance to him personally. He considered twi his personal piggy bank, and its belonging as his own belongings. So, he never GOT ON The Word. What he "got on" was making a display of being about The Word.

I guess we'll need to hang this one up. It's "Feel My Love" , made popular by Adele. HERE is another really nice cover, with beautiful harmonies. FREE POST!

No, it was first recorded in 1997.

I've only seen a few minutes of Pulp Fiction. George

The rhythm reminds me of "Like a Rolling Stone." Is that it? George

This is a Dylan song that's been covered over 450 times, excluding various YouTubers. Twice, it's reached the #1 spot on different charts.

Thx Raf just ordered it from Amazon... looking forward...

I'm not aware of any such allegation.

Does anyone know if vpw plagiarized someone's work for the Jesus Christ if Not God book?

This is some of the opening dialog from the movie "Pulp Fiction" in the coffee diner between Pumpkin and Honey Bunny before they pull off the robbery. "Garcon, coffee". Remember it? FREE POST

Awesome Book! JCING pales in comparison.

By the way, if you're interested in that kind of thing, Dan McClellan has a number of videos where he tears the Trinity to shreds as a Biblical concept. McClellan is a Mormon and a Bible scholar who appears to be quite honest about history (for example, he dismisses a lot of the claims the LDS church makes about Joseph Smith and the witnesses to the golden plates, etc. He has repeatedly called the story of Mormonism's founding "ahistorical" and admitted the data do not support the Book of Mormon's history of the Western hemisphere. I bring all this up to say just because he's a Mormon doesn't mean he's being dishonest with the history of the church).

Outside of TWI, I would recommend Anthony Buzzard's book "The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound." While my overall mindset has changed and I no longer believe scripture speaks with one voice on this issue, I think Buzzard presented a strong case for the view Wierwille tried to espouse.

That's how I feel about a lot of songs on this thread. George

Some of THE best teachings I've heard on these subjects were by men after they had left twi...Wayne Clapp's 'Hell is not a place of eternal torment' and John Nessles 'Who is this Jesus Christ' were/are absolutely skillful' brilliant, impactful....