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True story. And, I dropped out of the intermediate class. I dropped in for the weekend. What about all the people who took all the classes and lived there in training? Those demons had a lot more time to work.

Have you tried to turn counterclockwise, look in the mirror and say "Mary Worth" 3 times? Well, you just never know until you try.

There's one story of TWI I haven't told. I forget about it. Now, it comes back. After my two wonderful ROAs, I eventually wound up in the Army. I got back out and joined a twig. Some of us went together to some fall Harvest weekend at HQ. Everything felt different. There was a malaise over the place. As a relative outsider I was used to the kind of music you hear from the platform. This more informal weekend, the Fresh Prez was DJing a dance with music like ZZ Top, Legs. On Sunday we were sitting third row center in the WOW auditorium. LCM looked down into my eyes, I looked up at him expectantly, then BAM! A demonic transference took place, I had been hit. That thing hit my brain coiling itself around like Battling Tops. I didn't know what to do. Should I get out of there fast, speaking in tongues, rebuking it, making a scene? How would I explain that to my twig coordinator and the people with whom I was trying to fit in? I had never experienced anything like this, just how serious is this? That demonic bondage has been with me since. I feel it right now as I type. It's always there but I forget about it. I didn't run out of the auditorium. I stayed as we sang something like How Firm a Foundation. Only God knows how this has impacted me for 30 years. All the churching I mentioned I did in this current state. Once, when a man named Bobby Connor was preaching, it started making noises. I got up and walked out of the room. So, I apologize to anyone with fresh wounds I may have offended. I've sought deliverance and been told to get over it myself. I'm trying... I have. Laying on the floor, speaking in tongues trying to rebuke it. Some long fasts. Go here, go there, sitting in deliverance class. I sat through Exercising Spiritual Authority, or whatever it's called with Dr Dale Sides of LMCI. In earlier days he'd do a mass deliverance of everyone in the room. Hacking, coughing, shrieking, it was quite a spectacle. I was not affected, however. Yeah, it can get bad. Freedom for me has been coping. Pushing on. And, having recalled all this and spoken it openly (there are a few people on the planet who could figure out who I am) I have to rethink my plans And just for my own benefit, I like women, OK? Thank you Jesus that's not what I wrestle with.

Pretty much. Categories are supposed to facilitate discussion, not hamper it. Whether something belongs in Doctrinal or About the Way is sometimes a matter of nuance and emphasis. And yes, there will be overlap. Our discussion about Speaking in Tongues was about all of the above. It was impossible to discuss whether TWI taught us all to fake SIT without at least agreeing on what SIT means in TWI and in Christianity. So a lot of the debate was whether the thread belonged in About the Way or doctrinal, and no one was really wrong. Point is, put your thread where you think it goes. If we feel a need to move it, we will, and we will explain why. Politics is a problem because folks on both sides proved incapable of having a conversation without it degenerating into namecalling and personal attacks, and no one trusted the moderators to be neutral or consistent. Yes, sometimes religion and politics cross paths. TWI's right wing identity is a part of who they are. But so is their pro-choice stand. Tread carefully and respectfully, and we will do our best to do the same.

"The evil men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones." ...the fishin' rod guy

Well said...whilst I hold fast to much of TWI teaching I would never EVER be stupid enough to be enticed back...and I've been certainly been 'romanced'...

I'm going to speak purely for myself, here. There's some thoughts I've had for a long time, now, but never stopped to articulate them. I just never felt it was the right time, or possibly not the right thread. So, I'm giving them their own thread. Yes, these thoughts are "About the Way" and about "About the Way" discussions. 1) I've been having these thoughts on and off for over a decade, so it was never a SINGLE poster who I've thought of. (So, if your immediate response is to get defensive, it says more about you than about my post. I'd think about that for a moment.) 2) A number of posters over the decades have all sounded almost identical. It was as if someone had given all of them the same canned responses somewhere, and they just learned to parrot them back- rather than consider whether or not the canned responses reflected reality. For ex-twi, I think it can either be very, very easy to get that to happen (for people who have left twi, but twi has not left them, spitting back what leaders said without ever thinking if it was sensible is how twi has always run things, and that's true now as well as then), or very, very hard (ex-twi who have a violent, knee-jerk reaction when someone tries that same bs on them one more time now that they're wise to it), or anywhere in between (depending on where the person is in their personal growth.) A long time ago, before the internet, I saw a local leader do such an egregious job of it that I was THIS close to keeping packets of Saltine crackers in my pockets, prepared to hand him one every time I caught him do it. But he seemed to have caught himself JUST as I was getting ready to start. I think I had a pack ready in my pocket at the time.) 3) There's this depiction- a pretty consistent one- that paints the GSC as a place where people do nothing all the time but hate on twi. It's not even true of our time on the GSC. A lot of posting is pretty neutral. Want to see examples to the contrary? Make a ridiculous claim that twi made or makes. Then, when posters correct you, you can claim they spend all their time hating on twi. It makes all the same sense as claiming a traffic cop signaling you past a hazard is "wallowing in hate" over the location he's signaling you past. 4) There this depiction- a pretty consistent one- that claims that GSC posters spend all their time doing nothing but hating on twi. First of all, check my posting history. That's not even true of the time I spend here. Second of all, you only see me for the few minutes I spend here, and not remaing 23:45 I spend in my day. Imaging I really spend any of that time on twi is a better example of "thinking evil" than anything I've ever said here. 5) There's this idea that warning people about twi or ex-twi groups is "thinking evil." No, it's warning people not to get their car stuck in the ditch! "In vain is the net spread in sight of any bird." If you're determined to spend your money and time on twi and pro-twi things, supporting them and propping them up, I certainly can't stop you. But if we warned you, and you ignored the warnings and went on and got caught anyway, that's entirely on you, we did what we could. 6) There's this idea that not being open to even considering you may be backing the wrong horse is a good thing. vpw claimed that the first mistake Eve made was "considering." No, it was paying heed to a dangerous, harmful predator who disguised himself as someone looking out for her, who got her to expose herself to danger by ignoring the sensible thing to do and trying to join a "privileged group" known as "wise." Is it wise to never look around and consider whether you are headed down the wrong road? I'll leave these quotes that I think are relevant. John Maynard Keynes- "The inactive investor who takes up an obstinate attitude about his holdings and refuses to change his opinion merely because facts and circumstances have changed is the one who in the long run comes to grievous loss." Paul Samuelson- "Well when events change, I change my mind. What do you do?" 7) There's this idea that people who- like GSC posters- warn others about the dangers of twi can't ever even think of anything positive to say about twi, vpw, etc. No, that's confusing the obvious warnings for EVERYTHING. There used to be something touted as a miracle mineral, something that saved a lot of lives in buildings by preventing the buildings from going on fire. That miracle mineral's name is ASBESTOS. I'm sure many, many, many people owe their lives to being able to escape a fire because asbestos impeded a bulding fire or prevented it. However, if you look around, you don't find people going around saying it's such a fantastic thing, and touting its praises. Why not? As you probably know- now if not decades ago when asbestos was popular- the thing has been responsible for a lot of deaths all on its own! Breathing in asbestos fibers is incredibly harmful to one's lungs, and can lead to a problem with its own name- asbestosis. (Feel free to look it up.) You might say that all people have to say about asbestos is negative now, and they ignore the good it's done. I think most people would reply that asbestos may have done well- and I would say it's saved lives- but it's more important to point out the incredible dangers of exposure to this dangerous substance than to focus on some of the benefits and IGNORE the dangers that could suffocate you or kill you. I, myself, started a thread to discuss vpw and wanted his positive traits included alongside his negative traits. I did the same for lcm and rfr. I found it fascinating that, of the three, nobody was able to come forth with even ONE positive anecdote about rfr, which was not true about either rapist/molester. Trying to focus on vpw's positive traits, now that I'm aware of a far more COMPLETE picture of the man, keeps reminding me of a quote, "Now you fellas have said some pretty mean things...some of which were true under that fiend, Boss Grissom. He was a thief, and a terrorist. On the other hand he had a tremendous singing voice." We've even discussed how Al Capone helped feed people in the Great Depression, but nobody ever focuses on the good he accomplished. It's as if people can't even SEE the good he did, they have to only focus on the negative. That's what's on my mind on this at the moment. Every once in a while, I get curious about what source people are parroting that they come off, all reciting the same things. Then I get on with my life because it's neither my concern nor my problem where people get their delusions or their misinformation. I do know that it would concern me if I were on the other side of things- if I could only recite what others had passed on to me...at least at my age. In twi, I was a lot younger, and a lot more naive. I fell for it then. If I fell for variations on the same themes decades later, it would concern me. I don't know why others are fine with it, but it does illustrate some people are really different from other people, on fundamental levels.

It's taken me about 25-30 years to heal from the TWI experience too. But happily not that long to buy my house. I messed around for a decade, afraid to make any decisions of any kind. Finding this place helped me heal a lot. But nothing disappeared instantly. I bought my house with much trepidation in 2007. I made overpayments every year when I could. I think my 25 year mortgage ran originally till I was 74, but it has been repaid (YIPPEE) for several years now, thanks to very diligent efforts on my part. It was either pay off the house, or pay into a pension scheme, not enough for both. I am entitled to get state pension (not a lot) but the thought of a mortgage as a pensioner was horrible. I have deferred claiming my pension because for every 9 weeks that I defer, I get a small uplift in the amount received. And, praise the Lord, he had a plan for me to get a pension anyway. I am getting married soon and my husband has a big pension and on his decease I will get half his amount, which, together with my state pension, will be more than I have ever earned in my life! As WordWolf mentioned earlier, we have a variety of beliefs here. I'm in the "God is good" category. I go to a great church which is very involved with the community around it. I do not subscribe to the standard beliefs of my church (am still non-trini) and I would go elsewhere if I felt the church was "off" in its treatment of parishioners. Well, no, first I would have a "what's going on?" session with any leadership that seemed off, and would escalate that if necessary. The days of being beaten down by nasties like TWI leadership are long gone. But so far, nothing has raised any red flags, nor seems likely to.

If you are CHARLIE, then those are your ANGELS. ("Charlie's Angels.")

This was Smash Mouth (or The Monkees) with "I'm A Believer."

I was hoping for another quote, but this is Styx' song "Mr Roboto."

It's JUST a discussion. It's not a competition.

Some perspective on "the OTHER side of the story".

No one is being combative with you. You asked questions and answers were provided. You've accused people, at least implicitly, of crying and not moving on. I tried to help you understand that your dismissiveness is not merely a childish cop out, it's a form of gaslighting. Perhaps my showing you this caused you discomfort, causing you to falsely accuse me of trying to start a forbidden topic while blaming you for it. After admittIng the possibility of my own failure at communicating, I offered a different illustration. Now you 're gaslighting again accusing people of being combative. This is how you react when you are challenged and corrected? It's a discussion. You aren't the only one allowed to take a passionate position for or against an idea.

Some on this board have been consistently kind and welcoming. Others of you have been consistently combative. Gentlemen, I have no interest in this. Where's the prize? What would make a ....ing contest worthwhile? I've probably stepped on toes. Sorry about that. If I'm going to be combative with anyone there better be something worth winning. https://x.com/TopGResistance/status/1920262595455357177?t=r2Ene5aPv5pHM4VSHYR6hQ&s=19

Of course not. Just shedding light on darkness.

Gosh golly gee... is it OUR job to convince the JoyfulSoul guy to be less judgmental? I kinda doubt it.

When someone so wildly misses the point, it seems to me there are at least three reasons. 1. They are incapable of understanding. 2. They willfully ignore the point. 3. I failed to articulate. I always assume #3 first. You asked why people are here at Greasespot. Rocky said to shed light on darkness. Then you said, "I can kind of understand that for awhile but then I'd be moving on. Once I've talked something out I'm looking for fresh." I attempted to illustrate a parallel to a familiar, yet vague, concept to encourage you to examine your own dismissiveness of the value people derive from this board. Try this. You've already talked out your views on the trinity. Yet, I assume, you still talk about it, you still make your case against it. (I'm not a trinitarian, btw.) What if someone told you to quit crying about the trinity and move on? Can you not see you dismissed and minimized in the exact same way a reason why people are here at Greasespot?

I don't care how he spends he spends his time. Just saying, that wouldn't be for me. Now you're going to start that again and act like I started it again!? At this point I'm ready to listen to somebody else talk about what they want to talk about. 5 pages of this thread, here. I'm ready to follow the wind of the spirit where it blows.

Do you not see a parallel with a certain religiopolitical ideology to which you are so fervently opposed? You haven’t moved on from that, even though you’ve got it all worked out. What if someone told you to quit crying and move on? See? It’s kinda like that.

lol. I almost forgot how privately interpreted this was.

I can kind of understand that for awhile but then I'd be moving on. As a ministry I can better understand it, giving others the opportunity to talk over their issues. But, that would be ministry. Service. Once I've talked something out I'm looking for fresh. About that, I think I've learned there's only one thing in the world that never gets old and that's the Holy Spirit. That's true. Songs get old, the presence of God never gets old.

And as the sun set slowly in the west and the cows mosied toward the safety of the barn... EDIT: Oops. I forgot the part about the smiling driver, waving gleefully as he sped past and continued down the road.