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I’m watching a video called “Seeing Through Christianity - A Critique of Beliefs and Evidence” by Bill Zuersher. With the concept of God being human made, he’s covered so far the evolutionary stage of the OT from Canaanite polytheism to Jewish monotheism due to the history of the Babylonian conquest. He’s about to get into the transition of Jewish monotheism to Apocalyptic Judaism due to the Persian Zoroastrian influence. I’m beginning to better understand why some Christians who believe in God but agree with the fictional storytelling of the OT will balance or cancel out the negative character of the OT God leaving God with the more positive image shown in the NT. Is this why someone (like myself for instance) who refers to the scriptures in the OT that show God committing atrocities may be pointed out as having a fundamentalist point of view? In this way, fundamentalism can be taken as being subjective at times in contrast to the objective definition which refers to it as taking the whole bible literally and as being inherently accurate. Am I understanding this correctly?

Winston Connelly Chris Townsend Rupert Marshetta Martin Loader Johnny Utah Raphael Danceny Scott Favor Don John Julian Gitche Prince Siddhartha Paul Sutton Eddie Kasalivich Shane Falco David Allen Griffin Donnie Barksdale Nelson Moss Conor O'Neill Dr. Julian Mercer

Natural Born Killers The Relic Point Break (1991) Pearl Harbor Flight of the Intruder Black Hawk Down

Only tangentially related to this thread, We are Made of Stories by Leslie Umberger Recasting American art history to embrace artists who have been excluded for too long, We Are Made of Stories vividly captures the power of art to show us the world through the eyes of another.

I first heard OF that song around 1989-1990. I first heard that song around the end of last year. I don't think Billy Joel was inspired by it when he wrote this song. He actually started with an attempt to write a rap song, then discovered he couldn't write rap songs, so he started over.

It is.

I would expect so. It was also in "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen", but I'm confident he wasn't quoting that movie at this time.

Splitting threads is easier said than done. Enjoy.

Yep. I think that was the point Waysider was making earlier. A good point.

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/infancythomas-hock.html With a wave of his hand Jesus strikes down that tattletale kid, everyone freaks, but he ultimately straightens that kid out and everything is cool in the end. I love this story!

Moby Dick....at least the line was in the novel, which I suspect was used in the movie.

This is Billy Joel's "We Didn't Start the Fire".

Good question!

By definition, if one believed the account was fictional, then they should not refer to it as a record. The noun "account" by definition does not include the words "facts" or "proven to be true." This could be an alternative to using the word "record."

Hi Nathan, I'm curious where you read the first "record?"

Your post speaks so well of what many Christians (no one specifically) find a need to minimize, rationalize or ignore. Personally, I didn't spend much time in the OT so I didn't focus much at all on the sick and terrible things God did there. It's like the "out of sight, out of mind" thing happening. However, for those Christians who believe in the trinity, it must be said that Jesus was right there along with God agreeing with him since they are all of one mind. I also didn't spend much time in the gospels, so I can't name where Jesus may have been doing the "like father, like son" thing, but he did teach that like the tares are gathered and burned in the fire so will all things that offend and do iniquity be cast into a furnace of fire in the end times where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. He was not talking only about spiritual beings for he was warning those present who had ears to hear, to do so.

Some consider the story of Jesus casting demons into pigs causing the death of 2000 valuable livestock near the Sea of Galilee, where people were likely living hand-to-mouth, a historical record. The same will not consider the story of Jesus animating clay sparrows to life part of the historical record. Both are fantastically weird and awesome stories! But historical records?

Here are other verses of Jesus casting out devil spirits. I believe these are fictional stories but if they were inspired by God, they are quite revealing about his son who always did his father's will. Some might disagree with my reviews of them, but that's no problem. Man in a synagogue - (Luke 4:33-35, Mark 1:23-26) the spirit had convulsed him so the man was thrown down when leaving but it "did not injure" him. But here's the interesting thing: the devil spirit gave Jesus some free advertising saying, "Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God." This, however, displeased Jesus for he commanded the spirit to "hold his tongue." Maybe the spirit let the cat out of the bag before Jesus had the chance to claim it for himself. A blind and mute demoniac - No harm done. (Matt 12:22) The Gadarene demoniac - No harm done to the man (Mark 5:1-13), but here's the awful thing: Jesus had a conversation with this devil spirit called Legion who asked Jesus not to send the many spirits in the man away out of the country but into a great herd of swine. So, Jesus gave them leave and sure enough, the spirits entered the swine which then ran violently into the sea. (That must have cost the owner big time). A mute demoniac No (Luke 11:14), but here's a comforting thought: in verses 24-26, Jesus taught when an unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, I will return to my house and when he does he takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself so that the last state of that man is worse than the first. Daughter of a Greek mother No (Mark 7:24-30), (21), but here's the disgusting thing: when you add on Matt 15:21-28, you find out that Jesus refused to deliver the daughter because he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel, so she went and worshipped him only to be referred as a dog by Jesus. BUT, when she gave an incredibly humble response by pointing out that even dogs get to eat of the crumbs that fall from their master's table, Jesus commented about her "great faith" and healed the daughter.

Not at all, unless you consider sorcery a good thing. But some call it a record, to your point.

And this is a good thing?

Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him. 26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore (mangled, convulsed), and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead. 27But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose. That was some spirit written about in these verses, but the words say the spirit convulsed the child so violently that he appeared lifeless, not Jesus. Did Jesus know ahead of time this would happen to the child when casting out the spirit, then my opinion is that yes, he did abuse him mentally. Jesus could just as easily commanded the spirit to come out of him GENTLY, and enter no more into him. If Jesus did not know, my opinion would be no, he did not abuse him mentally but I'd have to point out that the spirit came out of the child giving Jesus the "middle finger." (IMO)

Here are two “records” of magic, sorcery, or, if preferred, miracles, performed by Jesus. Which one is fiction? By what standard? When this boy, Jesus, was five years old, he was playing at the ford of a rushing stream. He was collecting the flowing water into ponds and made the water instantly pure. He did this with a single command. He then made soft clay and shaped it into twelve sparrows. He did this on the sabbath day, and many other boys were playing with him. But when a Jew saw what Jesus was doing while playing on the sabbath day, he immediately went off and told Joseph, Jesus' father: "See here, your boy is at the ford and has taken mud and fashioned twelve birds with it, and so has violated the sabbath." So Joseph went there, and as soon as he spotted him he shouted, "Why are you doing what's not permitted on the sabbath?" But Jesus simply clapped his hands and shouted to the sparrows: "Be off, fly away, and remembe' me, you who are now alive!" And the sparrows took off and flew away noisily. The Jews watched with amazement, then left the scene to report to their leaders what they had seen Jesus doing. ……………. Jesus asks the demon for his name and is told, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” The demons beg Jesus not to send them away, but instead to send them into the pigs on a nearby hillside, which he does. The herd, about two thousand in number, rush down the steep bank into the sea and are drowned.

There are other, more ambiguous ways to state it, such as, "It says in verse such and such..." or "according to what's written ...".

Respectfully, what is the standard that we may agree on in this thread: the bible is fiction? or the bible happened but some refuse to believe it? or something else?

Is it though? Usually when we say something is a record, it implies it actually happened.