Well gee ck, you are mighty young to know what was happening in the ministry when vpw was alive.
Isn`t it kind of naieve to base a belief so strongly on a man whom you have never met?
Have you come here to defend a myth or to honestly examine the evidence either way?
I know that it is very hard to read and assimilate, but there were many many of us at greasespot that were eye witness to some pretty horrific abuse straight from the teachers hands.....there are many here who knew vpw live and were eye witness to his at times drunkenness,at times his cruelty and at times his perversions....
There have been accounts from now grown children who were in the corpes program under vpw who tell stories of horrific abuse suffered in residence ....
Even the people here who believe twi was a good place ...know of his abuse of power and the devistation he created in our precious young sisters in Christ and dismiss it as collateral damage that is regretable but forgivable because they got something of benefit from the bible being taught......
Can you name a time frame where you think that evil WASN`T being praticed? There are people that were participants in twi and can give you straight forward accounts of what they saw.
There is a book out that documents the beginnings of the ministry....there are pages upon pages of first hand accounts of people being hurt at every stage of vpw`s ministry.....
Can it really be Godly if some where being deeply hurt while others were being taught scripture? Did not Jesus find even the one sheep precious and of value? Yet you want to contend that the hundreds that were devistated directly by vpw`s hands and the thousands at the hands of his hand picked ministers are some how acceptible casualties in a Christian ministry? Some how unimportant?
ckmkeon, I URGE you to educate yourself please, your life is far too important for you to base it on assumptions of the legend that you have heard.
Start reading the archives, there are many first hand accounts....check out the child abuse threads...if you have any heart at all the accounts there will break it.
Do you have the guts to check out the sexual abuse threads? or the forced abortion threads? or most damning of all the suicide threads.
You need to be honestly aware of what went on before you can make an educated decision as to whether or not you believe a man who could do such things is one you wish to venerate.
I used to believe exactly the way you did ck. I thought the ministry started out good. Just over the last year or year and a half I have been thinking it was never any good at all.
vp laced pfal with lies of his own life. ie snow storms on gas pumps, college degree. As far as his doctrine goes and what he inserted to be practiced as the spoken word ie. "What killed that little boy". He had to think about these things long before he taught them. You read about his child hood and the way he was. Always trying to get out of work being a bully and an alleged affair before twi ever started. No I am not saying theman was without sin as none of us are except you know who.
What I am saying is vp told out and out lies in pfal and he knew he was. We were to master the Blue Book and teach from it. His ministry was ego driven. To get what he wanted wheter it was money, sex anything to support his lifestyle.
He used his teachings to promote a lifestyle that was not what God wanted but what vp wanted. Some can dismiss all the bad things he did and just take away the good that they got from the ministry. Some say how good the ministry was good for others and may not be alive today if it was not for vp and pfal. This all is probably true.
There are people on this board that were abused sexually, spiritually and emotionally. Leaving out the emotional abuse and takeing the other two it ranks into the thousands. I would say a lot of us had the emotional abuse put upon us and did not know it and some to this day don't know it. A lot of people have such a hard time after they get out because of the abuse.
There is an active topic now about how someone is tormented about leaving. She wanted out and got out but she is still so tormented and guilt racked for leaving. She is trying to get her own life back but the brainwashing that twi did to her, is making it so hard on her to be able to be free from the guilt she feels when actually there should be no guilt at all. She is just one of the thousands that have gone through this. Of course some more extreme than others.
I used to believe exactly the way you did ck. I thought the ministry started out good. Just over the last year or year and a half I have been thinking it was never any good at all.
vp laced pfal with lies of his own life. ie snow storms on gas pumps, college degree. As far as his doctrine goes and what he inserted to be practiced as the spoken word ie. "What killed that little boy". He had to think about these things long before he taught them. You read about his child hood and the way he was. Always trying to get out of work being a bully and an alleged affair before twi ever started. No I am not saying theman was without sin as none of us are except you know who.
What I am saying is vp told out and out lies in pfal and he knew he was. We were to master the Blue Book and teach from it. His ministry was ego driven. To get what he wanted wheter it was money, sex anything to support his lifestyle.
"You read about his childhood and the way he was."
If you're interested,
vpw had twi write up a partial vpw biography,
partial twi advertisement called "The Way: Living in Love."
We examined that book in excruciating detail in the thread
"The Way: Living in Wonderland."
You're welcome to read it.
The later pages host my attempts to come up with a one-stop
biography on vpw, based almost entirely on what was public record-
using twi books or US Meteorological reports and other verifiable
data as sources. You can follow the process from the rest of the
thread as it's begun, and as data is added.
(It leaves out the rapes because they're not listed in twi records
nor publicly-available documents. I believe that most or all of
the accounts are TRUE-but I felt the verifiable cold facts were
sufficient to make the case without adding in anything else.)
I'm still refining the biography, so expect it will still improve a bit.
I need to add material from Mrs W's book, and to fix my
verb tenses so they all agree.
If you'd like to know what vpw was like when no one was
looking, there's ANOTHER thread.
"vp and me in wonderland."
It's an analysis of lcm's book where he explains how fantastic
vpw was-and accidentally exposes how horrible vpw was.
It's got a link to a manuscript of the original book's material.
That thread explains why lcm BECAME the lcm we all knew,
Well gee ck, you are mighty young to know what was happening in the ministry when vpw was alive.
Isn`t it kind of naieve to base a belief so strongly on a man whom you have never met?
No I never met him, but my dad did He went to the Way and never had trouble. My mother went to the Way and never had trouble. They were both there when all of this "Alleged Stuff" was going on and you know what they didn't see it. I believe my dad who says he was a good man (VPW) taught to the best of his ability. Now you are saying that I should believe you or anybody or writes on a thread over my parents. Wait this is going to be a hard choice to make I believe my parents sorry Rascal. You know what I am really sorry I didn't meet VPW. My Dad says he is a good man then guess what I am going to say. Thats right he is a good man he taught to the best of his ability. No I don't think it is "Naieve" I believe what my parents say.
Now you are saying that I should believe you or anybody or writes on a thread over my parents.
Nope. we are asking you to think for yourself. I don't know your parents, so without any information to the contrary I'll assume that they are good people. But even good people can be wrong, can be decieved.
WordWolf mentioned a couple of threads that talk about Wierwille's early life and the early days of The Way and its predecessor organization. I would recommend reading them. Most of the information is directly quoted from books that Wierwille authorized, with many direct quotes from Wierwille himself. Not what other people said he said, but books that were printed when he was alive and had full control.
Of course youy're welcome to your own opinion, but what is that opinion based on?
"The Sinless Universal Place of Public Worship"(The Holy Catholic Church). That is from the Webster Dictionary.
What? You read that in a dictionary?
Edited by Oakspear
"The Way" started off good but it spiraled out of control to where the corrupt TWI is today.
Brother... do you want to buy this nice bridge over here? It's a real bargain I promise.
They were both there when all of this "Alleged Stuff" was going on and you know what they didn't see it. I believe my dad who says he was a good man (VPW) taught to the best of his ability.
Have your parents ever visited the Greasespot Cafe? If not, perhaps they should...
ckmkeon, you Dad and mom are probably great people. I will be the first to tell you that vpw could be very charming when it suited him.
You have to understand that there was a public and a private side to his persona.
You have eye witnesses right here to his viscious cruelty. I truly am glad that your folks were not some of the ones abused.
ckmkeon, I have nothing to gain by lying to you, I will not do it....but you must understand that your folks were not with him 24/7 they may be entirely unaware of what went on behind closed doors.
I can tell you of several first hand accounts of atrocities endured directly at his hands, but I guess there is no point if you and your folks are determined to believe the persona that he let the general public see.
You are calling a whole lot of people out and out liars, in defense of a man you never knew whom your parents met but briefly.
Yes that is what they call trust, I trust my parents over everone here.
ckmckeon
If you're joking, hah, hah, I get it :lol:
If you're not kidding, then you could use some brushing up on your dictionary skills if you think that The Sinless Universal Place of Public Worship is the definition of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, despite each word being defined by what you came up with.
As I said, if you were joking, forget that i said anything :P
Ahhh, the old 'if its good enough for my daddy, its good enough for me' routine, ehh? That you trust what your parents told you about TWI overrides everything else anyone says about it, regardless of the testimony/evidence?
Well, regardless of how loyal you are to your parents, and how well some folks think of you because of it, reality beats loyalty and trust like a royal flush beats a pair of twos. Ie., like hands down. ... Sorry pal, but that's the cold, hard truth of the matter.
Even given that your parents told you what they knew about Wierwille out of their best honest efforts and opinion, there are many others (including many here) who saw things that your parents didn't see/believe. Ie., the crap *happened* pal, irrelevent of what your mom and dad told you. And in this regard, there is only so far that your loyalty to them will take you down that road of fact and truth. Ie., not very far.
Nice try tho'. <_<
P.S., Once a month?? And that gives your dad/you a solid view of what VPW was like?? Face it chief, your dad was snowed.
No I never met him, but my dad did He went to the Way and never had trouble. My mother went to the Way and never had trouble. They were both there when all of this "Alleged Stuff" was going on and you know what they didn't see it. I believe my dad who says he was a good man (VPW) taught to the best of his ability. Now you are saying that I should believe you or anybody or writes on a thread over my parents. Wait this is going to be a hard choice to make I believe my parents sorry Rascal. You know what I am really sorry I didn't meet VPW. My Dad says he is a good man then guess what I am going to say. Thats right he is a good man he taught to the best of his ability. No I don't think it is "Naieve" I believe what my parents say.
ckmkeon
Well, it's good to consider your parents, and honor them. :)
I talked with docvic one time, and one time only, but I still remember it.
I don't remember what *event* it was at ----
Might of been at a Heartbeat Festival, or pfal 77,
but I was walking along (after leaving the teaching),
and I heard docvic (behind me) say:
"Hey --- what is that on your belt?"
At that time -- I had a swiss army knife in a leather case on my belt, and since I heard him speak, I turned around. He was talking to me, and I pulled the knife out, and showed it to him.
He looked it over, and we talked of *one knife* with *various manifestations*.
Now I am not claiming he got the *swiss army knife* analogy from me (that he taught in the AC class in 79), but I am willing to bet I had something to do with it. :)
Now ---- I knew the guy too, and at the time he seemed like a decent person.
Decent is, as decent does.
Docvic (imho) never learned that.
Honoring your parents is one thing.
Hanging on to a mistake is something totally different.
Ahhh, the old 'if its good enough for my daddy, its good enough for me' routine, ehh? That you trust what your parents told you about TWI overrides everything else anyone says about it, regardless of the testimony/evidence?
Well, regardless of how loyal you are to your parents, and how well some folks think of you because of it, reality beats loyalty and trust like a royal flush beats a pair of twos. Ie., like hands down. ... Sorry pal, but that's the cold, hard truth of the matter.
I guess you are the expert on everything TWI (NOT) How many times did you meet Dr.Wierwille, sorry pal you just don't know what you are talking about with being loyal and trusting what they are saying
ckmkeon
Well, it's good to consider your parents, and honor them. :)
Hanging on to a mistake is something totally different.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
6
11
6
20
Popular Days
Feb 26
45
Feb 27
26
Mar 8
12
Mar 11
2
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 6 posts
Oakspear 11 posts
markomalley 6 posts
ckmkeon 20 posts
Popular Days
Feb 26 2006
45 posts
Feb 27 2006
26 posts
Mar 8 2006
12 posts
Mar 11 2006
2 posts
johniam
If the way ever teaches the trinity, they'll call it the TWInity.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ckmkeon
Yeah Right
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Well gee ck, you are mighty young to know what was happening in the ministry when vpw was alive.
Isn`t it kind of naieve to base a belief so strongly on a man whom you have never met?
Have you come here to defend a myth or to honestly examine the evidence either way?
I know that it is very hard to read and assimilate, but there were many many of us at greasespot that were eye witness to some pretty horrific abuse straight from the teachers hands.....there are many here who knew vpw live and were eye witness to his at times drunkenness,at times his cruelty and at times his perversions....
There have been accounts from now grown children who were in the corpes program under vpw who tell stories of horrific abuse suffered in residence ....
Even the people here who believe twi was a good place ...know of his abuse of power and the devistation he created in our precious young sisters in Christ and dismiss it as collateral damage that is regretable but forgivable because they got something of benefit from the bible being taught......
Can you name a time frame where you think that evil WASN`T being praticed? There are people that were participants in twi and can give you straight forward accounts of what they saw.
There is a book out that documents the beginnings of the ministry....there are pages upon pages of first hand accounts of people being hurt at every stage of vpw`s ministry.....
Can it really be Godly if some where being deeply hurt while others were being taught scripture? Did not Jesus find even the one sheep precious and of value? Yet you want to contend that the hundreds that were devistated directly by vpw`s hands and the thousands at the hands of his hand picked ministers are some how acceptible casualties in a Christian ministry? Some how unimportant?
ckmkeon, I URGE you to educate yourself please, your life is far too important for you to base it on assumptions of the legend that you have heard.
Start reading the archives, there are many first hand accounts....check out the child abuse threads...if you have any heart at all the accounts there will break it.
Do you have the guts to check out the sexual abuse threads? or the forced abortion threads? or most damning of all the suicide threads.
You need to be honestly aware of what went on before you can make an educated decision as to whether or not you believe a man who could do such things is one you wish to venerate.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
I'll say this much...
I believe that VP was sincere, at least in the very (1940s-1950s) beginning. However, what did he say about sincerity?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
justloafing
I used to believe exactly the way you did ck. I thought the ministry started out good. Just over the last year or year and a half I have been thinking it was never any good at all.
vp laced pfal with lies of his own life. ie snow storms on gas pumps, college degree. As far as his doctrine goes and what he inserted to be practiced as the spoken word ie. "What killed that little boy". He had to think about these things long before he taught them. You read about his child hood and the way he was. Always trying to get out of work being a bully and an alleged affair before twi ever started. No I am not saying theman was without sin as none of us are except you know who.
What I am saying is vp told out and out lies in pfal and he knew he was. We were to master the Blue Book and teach from it. His ministry was ego driven. To get what he wanted wheter it was money, sex anything to support his lifestyle.
He used his teachings to promote a lifestyle that was not what God wanted but what vp wanted. Some can dismiss all the bad things he did and just take away the good that they got from the ministry. Some say how good the ministry was good for others and may not be alive today if it was not for vp and pfal. This all is probably true.
There are people on this board that were abused sexually, spiritually and emotionally. Leaving out the emotional abuse and takeing the other two it ranks into the thousands. I would say a lot of us had the emotional abuse put upon us and did not know it and some to this day don't know it. A lot of people have such a hard time after they get out because of the abuse.
There is an active topic now about how someone is tormented about leaving. She wanted out and got out but she is still so tormented and guilt racked for leaving. She is trying to get her own life back but the brainwashing that twi did to her, is making it so hard on her to be able to be free from the guilt she feels when actually there should be no guilt at all. She is just one of the thousands that have gone through this. Of course some more extreme than others.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
justloafing
Mark, I used to think that way too. I now think God nor His Word ever set vp free from his "old man" and that part is the shame of it all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
"You read about his childhood and the way he was."
If you're interested,
vpw had twi write up a partial vpw biography,
partial twi advertisement called "The Way: Living in Love."
We examined that book in excruciating detail in the thread
"The Way: Living in Wonderland."
You're welcome to read it.
The later pages host my attempts to come up with a one-stop
biography on vpw, based almost entirely on what was public record-
using twi books or US Meteorological reports and other verifiable
data as sources. You can follow the process from the rest of the
thread as it's begun, and as data is added.
(It leaves out the rapes because they're not listed in twi records
nor publicly-available documents. I believe that most or all of
the accounts are TRUE-but I felt the verifiable cold facts were
sufficient to make the case without adding in anything else.)
I'm still refining the biography, so expect it will still improve a bit.
I need to add material from Mrs W's book, and to fix my
verb tenses so they all agree.
If you'd like to know what vpw was like when no one was
looking, there's ANOTHER thread.
"vp and me in wonderland."
It's an analysis of lcm's book where he explains how fantastic
vpw was-and accidentally exposes how horrible vpw was.
It's got a link to a manuscript of the original book's material.
That thread explains why lcm BECAME the lcm we all knew,
and shows vpw's view of others as disposable.
Finally, it's got some stuff on Donna as well.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
Wow, isn't that the sad, sad truth?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ckmkeon
No I never met him, but my dad did He went to the Way and never had trouble. My mother went to the Way and never had trouble. They were both there when all of this "Alleged Stuff" was going on and you know what they didn't see it. I believe my dad who says he was a good man (VPW) taught to the best of his ability. Now you are saying that I should believe you or anybody or writes on a thread over my parents. Wait this is going to be a hard choice to make
I believe my parents sorry Rascal. You know what I am really sorry I didn't meet VPW. My Dad says he is a good man then guess what I am going to say. Thats right he is a good man he taught to the best of his ability. No I don't think it is "Naieve" I believe what my parents say. 
ckmkeon
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
WordWolf mentioned a couple of threads that talk about Wierwille's early life and the early days of The Way and its predecessor organization. I would recommend reading them. Most of the information is directly quoted from books that Wierwille authorized, with many direct quotes from Wierwille himself. Not what other people said he said, but books that were printed when he was alive and had full control.
Of course youy're welcome to your own opinion, but what is that opinion based on?
What? You read that in a dictionary? Edited by OakspearLink to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Have your parents ever visited the Greasespot Cafe? If not, perhaps they should...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
ckmkeon, you Dad and mom are probably great people. I will be the first to tell you that vpw could be very charming when it suited him.
You have to understand that there was a public and a private side to his persona.
You have eye witnesses right here to his viscious cruelty. I truly am glad that your folks were not some of the ones abused.
ckmkeon, I have nothing to gain by lying to you, I will not do it....but you must understand that your folks were not with him 24/7 they may be entirely unaware of what went on behind closed doors.
I can tell you of several first hand accounts of atrocities endured directly at his hands, but I guess there is no point if you and your folks are determined to believe the persona that he let the general public see.
You are calling a whole lot of people out and out liars, in defense of a man you never knew whom your parents met but briefly.
That is very sad.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ckmkeon
Look it up in Websters each word by itself
The
Holy
Roman
Catholic
Church
Tells me what it says
The Sinless Universal Place of Public Worship
Yes that is what they call trust, I trust my parents over everone here.
ckmckeon
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
If you're not kidding, then you could use some brushing up on your dictionary skills if you think that The Sinless Universal Place of Public Worship is the definition of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, despite each word being defined by what you came up with.
As I said, if you were joking, forget that i said anything :P
Edited by OakspearLink to comment
Share on other sites
ckmkeon
Yes with each word seperated and defined it says that
(The Holy Roman Catholic Church) The Sinless Universal Place of Public Worship
ckmckeon
Edited by ckmkeonLink to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
I guess you're not joking :wacko:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ckmkeon
No I'm Not
ckmkeon
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Loyalty and respect for one's parents is a good thing.
Heck, it points to the first "commandment with promise."
Before concluding they were inerrant as to behaviour of vpw and lcm
when your parents weren't around,
you might want to see what vpw and lcm said of THEMSELVES
when your parents weren't around.
That's on the "Wonderland" threads, and you can read them for
yourself and form your own opinion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Why didn't you define "Roman"?
How closely did your parents associate with Mr. Wierwille?Link to comment
Share on other sites
ckmkeon
Roman and Catholic is together sorry I didn't tell you and it says Universal Church, My dad met with VPW Once a month
ckmkeon
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Ckmkeon,
Ahhh, the old 'if its good enough for my daddy, its good enough for me' routine, ehh? That you trust what your parents told you about TWI overrides everything else anyone says about it, regardless of the testimony/evidence?
Well, regardless of how loyal you are to your parents, and how well some folks think of you because of it, reality beats loyalty and trust like a royal flush beats a pair of twos. Ie., like hands down. ... Sorry pal, but that's the cold, hard truth of the matter.
Even given that your parents told you what they knew about Wierwille out of their best honest efforts and opinion, there are many others (including many here) who saw things that your parents didn't see/believe. Ie., the crap *happened* pal, irrelevent of what your mom and dad told you. And in this regard, there is only so far that your loyalty to them will take you down that road of fact and truth. Ie., not very far.
Nice try tho'. <_<
P.S., Once a month?? And that gives your dad/you a solid view of what VPW was like?? Face it chief, your dad was snowed.
Edited by GarthP2000Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Well, it's good to consider your parents, and honor them. :)
I talked with docvic one time, and one time only, but I still remember it.
I don't remember what *event* it was at ----
Might of been at a Heartbeat Festival, or pfal 77,
but I was walking along (after leaving the teaching),
and I heard docvic (behind me) say:
"Hey --- what is that on your belt?"
At that time -- I had a swiss army knife in a leather case on my belt, and since I heard him speak, I turned around. He was talking to me, and I pulled the knife out, and showed it to him.
He looked it over, and we talked of *one knife* with *various manifestations*.
Now I am not claiming he got the *swiss army knife* analogy from me (that he taught in the AC class in 79), but I am willing to bet I had something to do with it. :)
Now ---- I knew the guy too, and at the time he seemed like a decent person.
Decent is, as decent does.
Docvic (imho) never learned that.
Honoring your parents is one thing.
Hanging on to a mistake is something totally different.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ckmkeon
I guess you are the expert on everything TWI (NOT) How many times did you meet Dr.Wierwille, sorry pal you just don't know what you are talking about with being loyal and trusting what they are saying
ckmkeon
Who's mistake not mine or my parents
ckmckeon
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
tap-tap-tap... hmph... CK...
Have your parents ever visited the Greasespot Cafe? ...have they read any of the information/forums here?
...just wondering...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.