Waysider. Without a doubt. And the your dad had for his wife to motivate this is also noteworthy. (On the wings of our love is where Holy Spirit can breathe his kindness.)
I was a fairly 'newie' in the Word back in '88 and through a set of circumstances found myself on two occasions having to walk past a young mans house to get to where I needed to go. This young man was actually known to me as he was dating one of my cousins at the time.
Each time I 'felt' a prompting from God to go knock on the door and say "hi"...do a little bit of witnessing etc..
Each time I found an excuse not to. Anyways, why bother, he seemed such a smiley, happy fella.
About a month later I heard he had put a gun to his mouth and blown his head off.
From that time on I haven't even bothered waiting for a 'prompt'...I just speak up.
Good for you allan, I try to obey the same promptings.
Our much loved TC began behaving strangely after his wife left him and his kids.
Asking for our help getting his house in order, trying to give his things away. Crying, asking someone to help kick him in the arse....
I begged our lc and my husband, his corpes buddies to call him, that something was wrong. Nobody reached out because this guy was a ordained clergy corpes grad, he certainly could *handle* it.
To my ever lasting shame, I backed down. He killed himself shortly afterwards.
To this day, I am a down right pest (though I am generally later thanked) when I feel someone is in danger.
I'm hardly an expert in this field, but my sister (when she was alive) was a family counselor who was certified in the State of California in suicide intervention. She would spend a great deal of time as a trainer of other counselors and agencies and was known as a "specialist" in suicide intervention.
As her manner was, especially due to some of our own family history, she would frequently share lessons learned in her field with our family members. Here's a couple that stuck with me:
1. Whenever someone is extra forelorn, depressed or specifically speaks of suicide, the first thing she taught people to do is to be direct (as Rascal and others have learned the hard way) and ask these types of direct questions,
"Are you planning on hurting yourself? (If yes) What have you thought about doing? (hoping to probe into whether they have a gun, a razor, medication, jumping, etc.) (If one of these have been planned, she would ask for the evidence) Would you show me the gun, razor, meds, etc., ? (and would attempt to take it and provide some other intervention).
She would ask if she could see them, call them, have a family member or friend see them or call them and keep them talking about whatever was bothering them (again active intervention). She would always ask permission if she could call someone right then and there with them present (family, friend, doctor, counselor, sponsor, etc.).
There's a lot more to all of that - -but the point being that the directness causes them to talk and helps them to sometimes begin the process of sorting, seeking help, receiving help; or provide them with a point of connection at that moment with another human being.
2. Remembering that holidays and other "anniversary" dates (anniversary of a mate's death, lost love's birthday, child or parent's birthday) are sometimes particular "trigger" dates.
Again, being direct with them: why is Thanksgiving particularly hard for you (because I'm not near any of my family, or estranged from them, or they are all psycho - - some reason stated)? Or, what is special about this day that is causing you to think this way (to explore the significance in THEIR mind of that date), etc.
I'm not suggesting any of us non-professional people try to jump in (a la twi days) in areas requiring professional counseling or medical advice, but because of what my sister shared, I WAS able to help a particular person when an out-of-town friend acted on information shared by this man that he was considering ending it all. That friend (who was across the country) called me, alerted me to the situation and asked me if I would be willing to contact their friend (who I knew). I took the direct approach my sister had shared and DID discover an overdose level of medication mixed with booze being discussed - - anything to numb the overwhelming pain he was feeling. I was able to help him walk through the process of going to the doctor, finding a counselor who he allowed me to pre-brief (so I could share my outside perspective of what was going on). The doctor found some physical things that could be changed and corrected, also was able to prescribe an anti-depressant which in a very short time was instrumental in helping give him enought of a lift so the counseling could take some effect, etc.
Suicide is very sad (I have family member experience too) and very devastating to those left behind, but I'd rather risk being told to keep my nose out of someone's business, than to not at least to try to help.
I'm not suggesting that people always "see it coming" or that there is always even the opportunity to help, or that people haven't tried to help only to have the person commit suicide anyway - - I just share the above for what it's worth in case it helps any one who finds an open door to help.
This subject is near and dear to my heart. My childhood was a series of my mom's failed suicide attempts. She had a very tough life and more than a few times I came home to find her in various states of trying to just die and be done wtih it. My older brother and I spent 6 months in an orphanage when I was a baby because Mom was under 21 and had tried suicide when I was 3 months old. She actually married my younger sister and brother's father to get us older 2 out of the orphanage.
As a schoolgirl, I came home from school at least half a dozen times to find Mom passed out in her bed, once with a burned-down cigarette still in between her fingers with a 3-inch ash hanging off of it, the telephone receiver hanging over the side of her bed, and the german shepherd hiding underneath her bed. Mom's head and arm were dangling off the side too. She didn't even look like her own face. I was 8 years old. Thankfully, I was in the door before the younger kids were, so I sent them to the backyard while I called the operator and got an ambulance on the way. (This was pre-911 in our area.)
I was 18 years and 3 months old by the time she finally succeeded. It was still a shock. By then we kids thought she had super powers and would just never die. Not only that, we were 4 kids, ages 21 down to 12. There was a guy in that hospital ward that wasn't expected to survive the night and only one family waiting room. We were 4 scared kids, kinda loud, cracking jokes out of our fear and the nursing staff sent us home so that the other family that was at risk of losing a loved one (for a non-suicide reason) could have a peaceful evening without our noisiness.
That guy rallied and was out of the critical zone by morning.
Mom died at 7:28 a.m. ALONE.
My older brother and I had never known our fathers. My mom had been so tough to deal with that the 2 younger kids' father had nothing to do with them for years by then.
Ever since then, when I hear someone talk about suicide, I take it very seriously EVERY TIME.
Just before we left FL, I told my neighbor that I was afraid her husband was going to kill himself. Long story shortened, he had a work injury take away his livelihood. His body couldn't do what his mind remembered being his to do. I tried to get her to take him seriously. She couldn't. He put a shotgun in his mouth and right there, in their bed, ended his life a week after I moved to MO. I'm not saying I could have stopped him. I'm saying I take it seriously every single time I hear or feel it coming.
I don't mind people thinking I'm paranoid or take stuff too seriously. I know only too well what happens when people die that way.
It was just the 29th anniversary of Mom's death this month. I no longer cry like a baby, but I continue to relive, almost Groundhog-day style, that morning. Although the sadness is dulled and the pain doesn't force me to blubber like a baby anymore, it remains the worst experience of my life. 29 years later I still look in my sleeping child's face and wonder if that child would have been reason enough for Mom to fight the fight she had ahead of her.
It's like a drowned child. You can't undo suicide. I never ignore what I see as warning signs anymore. Toughest lesson I've learned yet.
to watch a person suffer is very difficult , depression is an illness that can and does hurt everyone. A sudden death of any sorts is difficult to overcome.
those left behind struggle , some of this is Anger to the ninth degree, unresolved anger is the largest indicator of depression.
people think angry feelings are normal in males esp. .. women they call moody or "going through meno"
think again it may very well be depression blown off as feelings they should be able to control .
drs. often do not adress this . because they function just fine! just physical ailment "normal" under the circumstance (job loss, or other event)
think again.
we also think well they got the meds it will be better now.
depression is a horrid disease and meds are not a cure all .
sucicide happens when a person is being "treated".
i have a family member that speaks of it often, a young adult, and after years we are tired of hearing it .. yes he is getting consel amass and meds amass.
my son said if he never hears from him again it wont be soon enough. it is draining.
so what do we do?
we just try.
but if he does it he does i can not allow his choices to effect my life to the point Im unable to be happy. he has nearly destroyed his mom with it over and over.
I get your frustration, I really do. But my point is that suicide is irreversible.
So what if it's annoying to be around him. It's got to be better than being at his funeral.
Sounds to me like they're working on it, but there must be something else to try, another therapist that might reach him. You think his mom is nearly destroyed now? You ain't seen nothin' yet, pond.
I mean this in total respect and sincerity - I get feeling like if he does it he does it. I just think that if y'all keep trying to help him see his life's worth, even if just to his own mom, or get him to enjoy something, it might get him through to the place where he values his life.
When you've done all you know to do and all you have energy to do, that's all you can do, but I wonder if you're really at that point. I would like to think that if I ever started displaying suicidal tendencies that my loved ones would fight all the way for me, not just til they get frustrated.
Apparently his meds aren't at the right dosages if he still feels that bad. Isn't it possible to have him admitted (even involuntarily if he's a true suicide danger) and his meds re-evaluated and adjusted? If he has meds prescribed, does his doctor know he still feels this despondent?
the idea that this issue is one of what another can do is important bow tie.
I read your post bow as one who has to control circumstance beyond what is reasonable, and I get why with the devastation of your hstory. and the pain you carry.
the title of this thread sadness that keeps giving sadness.
you sound like his mom so anxious to fix all of the trouble .. stretching and tormented. yes it is concern . of course all is being done.
yes everything has been done for YEARS. the story behind this state of mind is complex as is many who reach a state of despair...
but peace in a situation comes with the realization, that ultimelty we do not control anothers thought or process of life bow tie.
if one choses to commint this act whether it be in a fleeing moment of panick or a long trial of mental illness it is their ACT and NO one could prevent or stop it from happening. ever. it was their choice at the moment and it is time to realize that. You could NOT have helped your mom she struggled for years. a car accident in which people are killed.. life has many such events. The people left behind in disrepair should heal with the knowledge it is NOT about what they did or didnt do.
like any death. the circumstance may feel more painful , for some , that can not let go of the fact people behave badly and make wrong choices alot in life , and those who love them can do only what they can to either prevent or stop the result.
do i think it can be an attention getting ploy at times? yes and not to be disregarded he has his "professionals" this guy like to focus on this is there other mental issues involved? most certainly. not to say he can be playing around and it could happen that is why his mom gets so upset but at some point all the issues need to be addressed and those who care about him need to move forward and stop the focus on this . again you do not know the history or the manipulations this man has done and no he doesnt deserve nor does anyone want him to succeed.. but for me and my family he isnt allowed to destroy and frighten us to the point we become so anxious all about his problems and threats of death we can not be happy our own self.
I feel from my experiences that I won't ever give up on anyone as long as they're still drawing breath.
Not only did I have my personal experiences, but I worked for a Medical Examiner for over 4 years. I've seen a lot of suicides that could have been prevented. I'm not saying they all can be, but I just can't tell which to give up on, so I don't give up on any.
You don't see it that way. That's ok. You don't have to.
I will still feel for you and pray for your family when your loved one can't hold on any longer.
to assume responsibility for anothers action is pure dysfunction.
to walk with the idea that anyone is at all guilty of a crime because they love another that s mentaly ill and commints such an act is a horrible ideal and prevents or helps no one.
yet it does ruin many, and bring them to a place of depression, anger and anxiety in life which is how people get despondent and capable of behaving in such a manner that hurts everyone involved. for a life time.
The last three years we were involved with TWI, there were many times I thought of suicide and even mentioned it. It just made my husband and son angry with me. My son would always ask me "how do you think that makes ME feel?"
We were on razor's edge with our leadership. Everything I thought said or did was wrong, and I was told so unendingly. I had been diagnosed with insulin dependent diabetes, irrevocable proof of my sinfulness and unworthiness, because obviously I had done something to cause this to happen to me. My son was totally hateful and rebellious and flatly refused to listen, remember, obey, or do anything other than exactly what pleased him at any given moment. I was so convinced that I was responsible for the mess we were in, my husband's lack of a decent job for the first year we were out there, my son's rotten attitude, and my illness, that I felt they would both be better off without my miserable existence. My husband could have the MOG's and WOG's who ran Everett find him a wife who would standly boldly and fearlessly upon the Present Truth and be the kind of mother our son needed. TWI would rejoice because they would have gotten rid of one more empty wineskin.
I couldn't decide whether to stop taking insulin or take a whole bottle at once. I even got out my dad's old .22 rifle, and found that I could place the barrel in my mouth and reach the trigger. I had figured that I could do this in the bathtub for minimum mess to clean up. But I never even tried. Why?
I had a mother and a beloved aunt alive back in Ohio who would be absolutely devastated if I died, especially like that. And I just knew that God would not be pleased. Jesus didn't die for me so I could kill myself. I hung onto that thought for years. It was love that stopped my hand, and love that healed my mind and heart. God had something better in mind for me than TWI, grief, pain, and hopelessness.
I guess I have to agree a little with both of you.
I hear ya, Bow in not wanting to give up on people. I just also know that some people have intervened and get sucked into perpetual drama, roller coasters and sometimes even violence trying to help people who are suicidal. That's the case with my neice who is now 39.
She ran away from home and began drinking and doing drugs at age 15. At 17, she decided to join the Navy, where the drugs cleaned up, but the drinking got worse. She got married and divorced within a year. Then married again, pregnant, he left her, she aborted the baby and that began an entirely new chapter in her life. She then announced she had always been gay and began trolling the gay bars, picking up and getting picked up. Within 2 years you wouldn't have recognized her as she transformed from the trim, athletic, feminine woman to an overweight, "butch" (for lack of a more descriptive word that communicates) hair, dress, mannerisms. Men's boxers, pants, shirts, hair and whenever she came around, it was with a different "flavor" of the day girl. This went on for about 5 years.
During that time, the drinking, bar fights, physical abuse with other lesbians and Navy co-workers, blacking out while intoxicated and driving causing many accidents and nearly killing herself too many times to count. She was discharged from the Navy and thus began the very deliberate suicide attempts. When my sister (the one I speak of above who was the counselor) tried to intervene, she was met with physical violence, her daughter throwing things, causing loud, violent scenes in public, at most family gatherings, etc. That roller coaster ride went on for about 12 years until my sister's death, but over those years spent thousands of dollars trying to help, get her help or repay property damage, etc.
Almost all of us have had her move in with or near us to attempt to help. My sister had provided access to counseling referrals, medical exams. She had been diagnosed bipolar and then the attempt to get her on the right meds for 3-4 years caused more episodes, each more dramatic and scarey than the previous. While we all want to "not give up on her", Bow - - family members, friends, previous lovers/partners and coworkers of hers have various degrees of tolerance, experience and "bandwidth" (so to speak) to be able to take her on. Some, like her own sister, have had to set some clear boundaries because of her violent tendancies. Others get tapped continuously to supply money and support until they are drained.
20 years of this and just this year an unlikely source felt like she had finally hit rock bottom with the end of another relationship, no job, no place to live again and offered her a deal. He'd pay for her to go through a Christian substance abuse program that's tied into some very thorough medical examinations, family physical and mental history tracking, plus counseling. Much to our surprise, she bit.
The doctor who treated her found she was mis-diagnosed as bipolar and a correct diagnosis for PTSD (from being molested as a child) was made, is being treated and she has been able to enter into a medical asst. program, obtain a job at a hospital where she's already gotten a promotion in 6 mos. helping to develop a better program for dealing with mentally ill patients, for which she provides unique insight.
Not sure if this is temporary for her. I want to hope it's not, but my point is that she had so alientated almost everyone close to her, or scared the .... out of them with her violent outbursts, that it took someone who had never had to deal with her before to connect somehow with her. Of course, it very well could have turned out the opposite way.
What's my point? Well, none of us had given up on her. We had all tried to help over the many years. We pray for her and invite her to family functions with the stipulation she doesn't get violent. We just had ceased being successful at reaching her or (for various reasons) chose to keep some healthy boundaries and not be around her - - which I think is what Pond is saying. Sometimes certain people are too destructive to be around (particularly when kids or family dysfunction dynamics are involved). I'm thrilled though, that whether this improvement in her life is short or long term, that at least she's enjoying some improvement to her life.
I understand there to be a difference between people who just enjoy heavy drama and behave in ways to perpetuate that drama and those in need of help that would actually appreciate help.
I think you proved my point. Unless I read you wrong, your niece had the wrong diagnosis for something like 17-20 years. that wasn't her choice, but her misfortune. Once they started treating her for PTSD instead of Biploar disorder, she became functional and even successful. I can only imagine the difference in your family's history if she had been diagnosed correctly the first time around.
I'm very glad nobody gave up on your niece.
I appreciate your ability to disagree with me without accusing me of being controlling and whatever else someone else said earlier.
During my 6th through 12th grade years, a 'somewhat' close 'Catholic' friend, Bridgett was constantly having a rough time. She would call me to 'hang out'. We lived at opposite ends of town, and would frequently ride our bikes & 'meet in the middle', to talk & do silly things, riding through the city.
EVERY time towards the end of our get-together, she'd talk about killing herself. Every time I'd get uncomfortable, not knowing what to say or do. I don't even recall what I did say to her. It was my queue to 'have to go home'... (We didn't learn anything about suicide in the Lutheran schools & church)
During High School there was a woman teacher that had taken Bridgett 'under her wing', and Bridgett would frequently be seen in tears, speaking with Miss C.
We lost touch after 12th grade, Bridgett went on to college. Her room-mate being a Christian, got her involved in a Bible Reading Church group, much to her mother's disapproval!
Bridgett continued trying to end her life. Pills, cutting, driving her Volkswagen head on into a Semi...nothing worked. She was admitted into a phyc ward, being watched constantly. Still she tried anything she could to kill herself.
When Bridgett was almost 20, she was living most of her days in a padded cell at the hospital. It was during this time that she tied her socks together, and hung herself.
At her funeral, all I could do was cry. Her mother wasn't crying... it was all so strange. Her mother blamed Bridgett’s college room-mate for introducing Bridgett to the devilish teachings in the Bible. Her mom told me she burned ALL the books & bible that she got from 'that group'...
About three months later, I was witnessed to while on vacation in Florida. He turned out to be with TWI…(a smooth ’talker’, which I later found out was a Heroin Addict )
I’ve always wondered about Bridgett’s mom... she ALWAYS smelled of hard liquor, and ALWAYS had a cigarette going... her husband left her when her two kids were small... and Bridgett’s older brother NEVER came home for visits... <_<
Bridgett too, was a kind, tender hearted person, always pointing out the positives for other people… not many people knew of her turmoil, especially in her younger years. During High School, Miss C just kept everything ‘quiet’….
Suicide is not a solitary act. A person may think he is alone and that no one cares, etc. but suicide does affect others, as responses here also demonstrate.
The answer, I believe, to Cain's question, "Am I my brother's keeper?" is "Yes." (Else the Lord would not have asked Cain where he was:))
Twenty years ago the Lord told me that I was a person's only friend, and at first I handled this commission pretty faithfully. And then in the course of my own heartaches, and it looked like Mike had gotten some friends, including a girlfriend, and I quit that job (I never got on an outside-of-work friendship with Mike). I did keep in touch with one co-worker, and found that a few months after I left, Mike committed suicide.
As also shown in Wayside's story of his dad's advice the "it would break your mother's heart" for him to commit suicide, the victims of suicide are the ones left behind as well as the one who dies.
And Thank you Allan W and others who tell that I am not alone in being careful of others' sadness because of a past failure to give to others the compassion the the Lord has so kindly given to me.
A "christian" friend of Chuck's called yesterday when I was over at his house going thru some of his papers. This "friend" asked when the funeral would be and wanted to know what happened to him. I told him that Chuck's note said he's just had enuf. That his mind and body had ceased to function properly, and that he could no longer live with the pain, the fear, and the confusion.
The "friend" said "oh, no". So I asked what he meant because his tone sounded funny to me. Turns out that he had been with Chuck the Sunday before he killed himself. Taken him to church. Chuck had told him that he felt suicidal. Remorseful over the life he had lived. Remorseful about how he'd screwed up his relationships with me and Shannon. And his body was in physical pain.
This person I'll call Ray said he told Chuck that suicide was "against God's rules". That things would improve and that he would help him. BUT, Ray didn't tell anyone else about Chuck's confession. Nor did Ray physically accompany Chuck to a hospital for medical/psychological intervenion. They parted ways after church. Four days later, Chuck was dead.
After this phone conversation I was really angry. That someone had this information and did nothing. Perhaps Chuck would still be here today if Ray had done more than give him God's "word" to help him deal with things.
I am ok, I suffer my pain in waves. I cry from time to time. I hyperventilate on the freeway. But Shannon is in utter despair. She called me just now and asked if I could call her work and tell them she wanted the day off. She was up all night crying, screaming, throwing things. She's angry at Chuck, angry at herself, and angry at anyone else who happens to be around. She just wants the day alone to be with him. To feel him, to feel his pain, to feel his presence. With no interruptions. She has a psychologist friend and she plans to go for counseling. I cry for her. I know what this feels like, just a little. My folks were happy tho, and they didn't choose to leave me and my brother behind.
Chuck's legacy to Shannon, and to his other family and friends, is one of painful existance. Day to day poverty. Utter refusal to see life in a different light than that of regret and remorse. I don't know if anybody could have helped Chuck. He was under a doctor's care for his depression and recent psychotic episodes. He had a roomate living with him who was there the night Chuck killed himself. Bob would have been more than happy if Chuck had awoken him for help and feels his own anger and regret for not seeing it coming. But he didn't. Chuck had a girlfriend who loved him who is also broken over this. He didn't even say anything to or about her in his final note. His friends always were over at his house trying to take him places and talk to him. But Chuck just utterly REFUSED to be happy or content in any way. He was somehow just simply stuck where he was and in the end he felt death would be his only peace.
Shannon can't understand why she couldn't help him. Why she "wasn't enuf" to make him want to stay here with her. Why she couldn't help him. Why her love couldn't fix him.
Perhaps some suicidal people are just unfixable. Just like some people who have cancer, or heart attacks, or even the flu are unfixable. Perhaps mental illness, as well as physical illness, is sometimes enough to kill us no matter what we try.
Chuck has been suffering for a long long time with psychotic depression. That would be depression that is also accompanied by paranoia and hallucinations. About a year ago, he also developed progressive pain in his legs to the point where he was unable to walk any farther than from a chair to the kitchen, bedroom, or bathroom. He was very very sick both mentally and physically. He lost hope in relief and took matters into his own hands.
Now his living victims must deal with their own pain. Shannon has close friends. She has a livein boyfriend who loves her dearly. She has other housemates who are very supportive. She has a job where her managers and coworkers are covering her shifts and offering any kind of assistance she needs. She has me and Dave and a stepbrother, Nick, who also love her dearly. I hope and pray that all together we are are enuf to get her thru her grief and help her find some resolution and peace thru all of this.
Please continue to pray for all of us. We need it every minute of every day.
NLL-------Many years ago I had a friend who talked frequently about suicide.I tried to help him in all sorts of ways. I helped him with housing. I helped him with car problems. I helped him get a job when he got out of the hospital. Yes, I even gave him "the word" as best I knew it. I, too, told him death was not what God wanted for
him. Ultimately,though, the decision was his alone to make and he chose to end his own life. I was the one who found him. For a long time I asked myself all sorts of questions like: "What if I had said this?' or "What if I had done that?"or "Why didn't other people try to help more than they did?"
It is difficult to absolve ourselves of blame. Much like a scar that becomes less and less noticable with passing time, the emotional scar will fade somewhat also with passing time but never completely disappear.
Don't be too hard on yourself or others who may have known what was going on. There is likely not much you could have done to change the outcome short of possibly delaying the inevidable.
You will have good days,you will have bad days and you will have some days that seem like a bad dream.
Through it all, God will be right there with you if for nothing else, to lend an understanding ear.
Dn't be afraid to let others help you. It helps THEM to help YOU.
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coolchef
good advice
i have a friend who had 2 sons that shot themselves
so damn sad
preventive steps might have worked but we will never know
so damn sad
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pawtucket
It is a sad behaviour. My cousin's niece just committed suicide in the past month. Noone saw it coming.
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Lori
I know the sting very well. My cousin comitted suicide two years ago.
Noone expected it or knew she was feeling so badly.
The doctor had changed her medication (she was bi-polar) and it wasn't working.
They think this and other circumstances attributed to her suicide.
Sigh
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waysider
Once when I was in my teens, I confided in my Dad that I had thought about suicide.
He looked me in the eye and quietly said:" It would break your mother's heart."
That was all he said. It was all he needed to say.
Suddenly it was no longer about me but about someone else who meant a great deal to me.
I've often wondered if those words weren't divinely inspired.
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Kit Sober
Waysider. Without a doubt. And the your dad had for his wife to motivate this is also noteworthy. (On the wings of our love is where Holy Spirit can breathe his kindness.)
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allan w.
I was a fairly 'newie' in the Word back in '88 and through a set of circumstances found myself on two occasions having to walk past a young mans house to get to where I needed to go. This young man was actually known to me as he was dating one of my cousins at the time.
Each time I 'felt' a prompting from God to go knock on the door and say "hi"...do a little bit of witnessing etc..
Each time I found an excuse not to. Anyways, why bother, he seemed such a smiley, happy fella.
About a month later I heard he had put a gun to his mouth and blown his head off.
From that time on I haven't even bothered waiting for a 'prompt'...I just speak up.
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rascal
Good for you allan, I try to obey the same promptings.
Our much loved TC began behaving strangely after his wife left him and his kids.
Asking for our help getting his house in order, trying to give his things away. Crying, asking someone to help kick him in the arse....
I begged our lc and my husband, his corpes buddies to call him, that something was wrong. Nobody reached out because this guy was a ordained clergy corpes grad, he certainly could *handle* it.
To my ever lasting shame, I backed down. He killed himself shortly afterwards.
To this day, I am a down right pest (though I am generally later thanked) when I feel someone is in danger.
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jardinero
Very good point, Rascal.
I'm hardly an expert in this field, but my sister (when she was alive) was a family counselor who was certified in the State of California in suicide intervention. She would spend a great deal of time as a trainer of other counselors and agencies and was known as a "specialist" in suicide intervention.
As her manner was, especially due to some of our own family history, she would frequently share lessons learned in her field with our family members. Here's a couple that stuck with me:
1. Whenever someone is extra forelorn, depressed or specifically speaks of suicide, the first thing she taught people to do is to be direct (as Rascal and others have learned the hard way) and ask these types of direct questions,
"Are you planning on hurting yourself? (If yes) What have you thought about doing? (hoping to probe into whether they have a gun, a razor, medication, jumping, etc.) (If one of these have been planned, she would ask for the evidence) Would you show me the gun, razor, meds, etc., ? (and would attempt to take it and provide some other intervention).
She would ask if she could see them, call them, have a family member or friend see them or call them and keep them talking about whatever was bothering them (again active intervention). She would always ask permission if she could call someone right then and there with them present (family, friend, doctor, counselor, sponsor, etc.).
There's a lot more to all of that - -but the point being that the directness causes them to talk and helps them to sometimes begin the process of sorting, seeking help, receiving help; or provide them with a point of connection at that moment with another human being.
2. Remembering that holidays and other "anniversary" dates (anniversary of a mate's death, lost love's birthday, child or parent's birthday) are sometimes particular "trigger" dates.
Again, being direct with them: why is Thanksgiving particularly hard for you (because I'm not near any of my family, or estranged from them, or they are all psycho - - some reason stated)? Or, what is special about this day that is causing you to think this way (to explore the significance in THEIR mind of that date), etc.
I'm not suggesting any of us non-professional people try to jump in (a la twi days) in areas requiring professional counseling or medical advice, but because of what my sister shared, I WAS able to help a particular person when an out-of-town friend acted on information shared by this man that he was considering ending it all. That friend (who was across the country) called me, alerted me to the situation and asked me if I would be willing to contact their friend (who I knew). I took the direct approach my sister had shared and DID discover an overdose level of medication mixed with booze being discussed - - anything to numb the overwhelming pain he was feeling. I was able to help him walk through the process of going to the doctor, finding a counselor who he allowed me to pre-brief (so I could share my outside perspective of what was going on). The doctor found some physical things that could be changed and corrected, also was able to prescribe an anti-depressant which in a very short time was instrumental in helping give him enought of a lift so the counseling could take some effect, etc.
Suicide is very sad (I have family member experience too) and very devastating to those left behind, but I'd rather risk being told to keep my nose out of someone's business, than to not at least to try to help.
I'm not suggesting that people always "see it coming" or that there is always even the opportunity to help, or that people haven't tried to help only to have the person commit suicide anyway - - I just share the above for what it's worth in case it helps any one who finds an open door to help.
J.
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bowtwi
This subject is near and dear to my heart. My childhood was a series of my mom's failed suicide attempts. She had a very tough life and more than a few times I came home to find her in various states of trying to just die and be done wtih it. My older brother and I spent 6 months in an orphanage when I was a baby because Mom was under 21 and had tried suicide when I was 3 months old. She actually married my younger sister and brother's father to get us older 2 out of the orphanage.
As a schoolgirl, I came home from school at least half a dozen times to find Mom passed out in her bed, once with a burned-down cigarette still in between her fingers with a 3-inch ash hanging off of it, the telephone receiver hanging over the side of her bed, and the german shepherd hiding underneath her bed. Mom's head and arm were dangling off the side too. She didn't even look like her own face. I was 8 years old. Thankfully, I was in the door before the younger kids were, so I sent them to the backyard while I called the operator and got an ambulance on the way. (This was pre-911 in our area.)
I was 18 years and 3 months old by the time she finally succeeded. It was still a shock. By then we kids thought she had super powers and would just never die. Not only that, we were 4 kids, ages 21 down to 12. There was a guy in that hospital ward that wasn't expected to survive the night and only one family waiting room. We were 4 scared kids, kinda loud, cracking jokes out of our fear and the nursing staff sent us home so that the other family that was at risk of losing a loved one (for a non-suicide reason) could have a peaceful evening without our noisiness.
That guy rallied and was out of the critical zone by morning.
Mom died at 7:28 a.m. ALONE.
My older brother and I had never known our fathers. My mom had been so tough to deal with that the 2 younger kids' father had nothing to do with them for years by then.
Ever since then, when I hear someone talk about suicide, I take it very seriously EVERY TIME.
Just before we left FL, I told my neighbor that I was afraid her husband was going to kill himself. Long story shortened, he had a work injury take away his livelihood. His body couldn't do what his mind remembered being his to do. I tried to get her to take him seriously. She couldn't. He put a shotgun in his mouth and right there, in their bed, ended his life a week after I moved to MO. I'm not saying I could have stopped him. I'm saying I take it seriously every single time I hear or feel it coming.
I don't mind people thinking I'm paranoid or take stuff too seriously. I know only too well what happens when people die that way.
It was just the 29th anniversary of Mom's death this month. I no longer cry like a baby, but I continue to relive, almost Groundhog-day style, that morning. Although the sadness is dulled and the pain doesn't force me to blubber like a baby anymore, it remains the worst experience of my life. 29 years later I still look in my sleeping child's face and wonder if that child would have been reason enough for Mom to fight the fight she had ahead of her.
It's like a drowned child. You can't undo suicide. I never ignore what I see as warning signs anymore. Toughest lesson I've learned yet.
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pond
to watch a person suffer is very difficult , depression is an illness that can and does hurt everyone. A sudden death of any sorts is difficult to overcome.
those left behind struggle , some of this is Anger to the ninth degree, unresolved anger is the largest indicator of depression.
people think angry feelings are normal in males esp. .. women they call moody or "going through meno"
think again it may very well be depression blown off as feelings they should be able to control .
drs. often do not adress this . because they function just fine! just physical ailment "normal" under the circumstance (job loss, or other event)
think again.
we also think well they got the meds it will be better now.
depression is a horrid disease and meds are not a cure all .
sucicide happens when a person is being "treated".
i have a family member that speaks of it often, a young adult, and after years we are tired of hearing it .. yes he is getting consel amass and meds amass.
my son said if he never hears from him again it wont be soon enough. it is draining.
so what do we do?
we just try.
but if he does it he does i can not allow his choices to effect my life to the point Im unable to be happy. he has nearly destroyed his mom with it over and over.
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bowtwi
I get your frustration, I really do. But my point is that suicide is irreversible.
So what if it's annoying to be around him. It's got to be better than being at his funeral.
Sounds to me like they're working on it, but there must be something else to try, another therapist that might reach him. You think his mom is nearly destroyed now? You ain't seen nothin' yet, pond.
I mean this in total respect and sincerity - I get feeling like if he does it he does it. I just think that if y'all keep trying to help him see his life's worth, even if just to his own mom, or get him to enjoy something, it might get him through to the place where he values his life.
When you've done all you know to do and all you have energy to do, that's all you can do, but I wonder if you're really at that point. I would like to think that if I ever started displaying suicidal tendencies that my loved ones would fight all the way for me, not just til they get frustrated.
Apparently his meds aren't at the right dosages if he still feels that bad. Isn't it possible to have him admitted (even involuntarily if he's a true suicide danger) and his meds re-evaluated and adjusted? If he has meds prescribed, does his doctor know he still feels this despondent?
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pond
I do not judge bow tie.
the idea that this issue is one of what another can do is important bow tie.
I read your post bow as one who has to control circumstance beyond what is reasonable, and I get why with the devastation of your hstory. and the pain you carry.
the title of this thread sadness that keeps giving sadness.
you sound like his mom so anxious to fix all of the trouble .. stretching and tormented. yes it is concern . of course all is being done.
yes everything has been done for YEARS. the story behind this state of mind is complex as is many who reach a state of despair...
but peace in a situation comes with the realization, that ultimelty we do not control anothers thought or process of life bow tie.
if one choses to commint this act whether it be in a fleeing moment of panick or a long trial of mental illness it is their ACT and NO one could prevent or stop it from happening. ever. it was their choice at the moment and it is time to realize that. You could NOT have helped your mom she struggled for years. a car accident in which people are killed.. life has many such events. The people left behind in disrepair should heal with the knowledge it is NOT about what they did or didnt do.
like any death. the circumstance may feel more painful , for some , that can not let go of the fact people behave badly and make wrong choices alot in life , and those who love them can do only what they can to either prevent or stop the result.
do i think it can be an attention getting ploy at times? yes and not to be disregarded he has his "professionals" this guy like to focus on this is there other mental issues involved? most certainly. not to say he can be playing around and it could happen that is why his mom gets so upset but at some point all the issues need to be addressed and those who care about him need to move forward and stop the focus on this . again you do not know the history or the manipulations this man has done and no he doesnt deserve nor does anyone want him to succeed.. but for me and my family he isnt allowed to destroy and frighten us to the point we become so anxious all about his problems and threats of death we can not be happy our own self.
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bowtwi
Pond, I agree to disagree with you.
I feel from my experiences that I won't ever give up on anyone as long as they're still drawing breath.
Not only did I have my personal experiences, but I worked for a Medical Examiner for over 4 years. I've seen a lot of suicides that could have been prevented. I'm not saying they all can be, but I just can't tell which to give up on, so I don't give up on any.
You don't see it that way. That's ok. You don't have to.
I will still feel for you and pray for your family when your loved one can't hold on any longer.
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pond
no one is giving up .suicide is a solitary act.
to assume responsibility for anothers action is pure dysfunction.
to walk with the idea that anyone is at all guilty of a crime because they love another that s mentaly ill and commints such an act is a horrible ideal and prevents or helps no one.
yet it does ruin many, and bring them to a place of depression, anger and anxiety in life which is how people get despondent and capable of behaving in such a manner that hurts everyone involved. for a life time.
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Watered Garden
The last three years we were involved with TWI, there were many times I thought of suicide and even mentioned it. It just made my husband and son angry with me. My son would always ask me "how do you think that makes ME feel?"
We were on razor's edge with our leadership. Everything I thought said or did was wrong, and I was told so unendingly. I had been diagnosed with insulin dependent diabetes, irrevocable proof of my sinfulness and unworthiness, because obviously I had done something to cause this to happen to me. My son was totally hateful and rebellious and flatly refused to listen, remember, obey, or do anything other than exactly what pleased him at any given moment. I was so convinced that I was responsible for the mess we were in, my husband's lack of a decent job for the first year we were out there, my son's rotten attitude, and my illness, that I felt they would both be better off without my miserable existence. My husband could have the MOG's and WOG's who ran Everett find him a wife who would standly boldly and fearlessly upon the Present Truth and be the kind of mother our son needed. TWI would rejoice because they would have gotten rid of one more empty wineskin.
I couldn't decide whether to stop taking insulin or take a whole bottle at once. I even got out my dad's old .22 rifle, and found that I could place the barrel in my mouth and reach the trigger. I had figured that I could do this in the bathtub for minimum mess to clean up. But I never even tried. Why?
I had a mother and a beloved aunt alive back in Ohio who would be absolutely devastated if I died, especially like that. And I just knew that God would not be pleased. Jesus didn't die for me so I could kill myself. I hung onto that thought for years. It was love that stopped my hand, and love that healed my mind and heart. God had something better in mind for me than TWI, grief, pain, and hopelessness.
WG
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bowtwi
I was trying to have a civil exchange of ideas with you, Pond.
I haven't called you names at all. You've called me controlling and dysfunctional and said that I'm saying that someone is guilty of a crime?
Real nice.
No thanks, Pond.
I'm done trying to communicate with you. Right now I can't remember why I even thought I would try.
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jardinero
I guess I have to agree a little with both of you.
I hear ya, Bow in not wanting to give up on people. I just also know that some people have intervened and get sucked into perpetual drama, roller coasters and sometimes even violence trying to help people who are suicidal. That's the case with my neice who is now 39.
She ran away from home and began drinking and doing drugs at age 15. At 17, she decided to join the Navy, where the drugs cleaned up, but the drinking got worse. She got married and divorced within a year. Then married again, pregnant, he left her, she aborted the baby and that began an entirely new chapter in her life. She then announced she had always been gay and began trolling the gay bars, picking up and getting picked up. Within 2 years you wouldn't have recognized her as she transformed from the trim, athletic, feminine woman to an overweight, "butch" (for lack of a more descriptive word that communicates) hair, dress, mannerisms. Men's boxers, pants, shirts, hair and whenever she came around, it was with a different "flavor" of the day girl. This went on for about 5 years.
During that time, the drinking, bar fights, physical abuse with other lesbians and Navy co-workers, blacking out while intoxicated and driving causing many accidents and nearly killing herself too many times to count. She was discharged from the Navy and thus began the very deliberate suicide attempts. When my sister (the one I speak of above who was the counselor) tried to intervene, she was met with physical violence, her daughter throwing things, causing loud, violent scenes in public, at most family gatherings, etc. That roller coaster ride went on for about 12 years until my sister's death, but over those years spent thousands of dollars trying to help, get her help or repay property damage, etc.
Almost all of us have had her move in with or near us to attempt to help. My sister had provided access to counseling referrals, medical exams. She had been diagnosed bipolar and then the attempt to get her on the right meds for 3-4 years caused more episodes, each more dramatic and scarey than the previous. While we all want to "not give up on her", Bow - - family members, friends, previous lovers/partners and coworkers of hers have various degrees of tolerance, experience and "bandwidth" (so to speak) to be able to take her on. Some, like her own sister, have had to set some clear boundaries because of her violent tendancies. Others get tapped continuously to supply money and support until they are drained.
20 years of this and just this year an unlikely source felt like she had finally hit rock bottom with the end of another relationship, no job, no place to live again and offered her a deal. He'd pay for her to go through a Christian substance abuse program that's tied into some very thorough medical examinations, family physical and mental history tracking, plus counseling. Much to our surprise, she bit.
The doctor who treated her found she was mis-diagnosed as bipolar and a correct diagnosis for PTSD (from being molested as a child) was made, is being treated and she has been able to enter into a medical asst. program, obtain a job at a hospital where she's already gotten a promotion in 6 mos. helping to develop a better program for dealing with mentally ill patients, for which she provides unique insight.
Not sure if this is temporary for her. I want to hope it's not, but my point is that she had so alientated almost everyone close to her, or scared the .... out of them with her violent outbursts, that it took someone who had never had to deal with her before to connect somehow with her. Of course, it very well could have turned out the opposite way.
What's my point? Well, none of us had given up on her. We had all tried to help over the many years. We pray for her and invite her to family functions with the stipulation she doesn't get violent. We just had ceased being successful at reaching her or (for various reasons) chose to keep some healthy boundaries and not be around her - - which I think is what Pond is saying. Sometimes certain people are too destructive to be around (particularly when kids or family dysfunction dynamics are involved). I'm thrilled though, that whether this improvement in her life is short or long term, that at least she's enjoying some improvement to her life.
J.
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bowtwi
J, Dear, thank you for your thoughtful comments.
I understand there to be a difference between people who just enjoy heavy drama and behave in ways to perpetuate that drama and those in need of help that would actually appreciate help.
I think you proved my point. Unless I read you wrong, your niece had the wrong diagnosis for something like 17-20 years. that wasn't her choice, but her misfortune. Once they started treating her for PTSD instead of Biploar disorder, she became functional and even successful. I can only imagine the difference in your family's history if she had been diagnosed correctly the first time around.
I'm very glad nobody gave up on your niece.
I appreciate your ability to disagree with me without accusing me of being controlling and whatever else someone else said earlier.
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SafariVista
During my 6th through 12th grade years, a 'somewhat' close 'Catholic' friend, Bridgett was constantly having a rough time. She would call me to 'hang out'. We lived at opposite ends of town, and would frequently ride our bikes & 'meet in the middle', to talk & do silly things, riding through the city.
EVERY time towards the end of our get-together, she'd talk about killing herself. Every time I'd get uncomfortable, not knowing what to say or do. I don't even recall what I did say to her. It was my queue to 'have to go home'... (We didn't learn anything about suicide in the Lutheran schools & church)
During High School there was a woman teacher that had taken Bridgett 'under her wing', and Bridgett would frequently be seen in tears, speaking with Miss C.
We lost touch after 12th grade, Bridgett went on to college. Her room-mate being a Christian, got her involved in a Bible Reading Church group, much to her mother's disapproval!
Bridgett continued trying to end her life. Pills, cutting, driving her Volkswagen head on into a Semi...nothing worked. She was admitted into a phyc ward, being watched constantly. Still she tried anything she could to kill herself.
When Bridgett was almost 20, she was living most of her days in a padded cell at the hospital. It was during this time that she tied her socks together, and hung herself.
At her funeral, all I could do was cry. Her mother wasn't crying... it was all so strange. Her mother blamed Bridgett’s college room-mate for introducing Bridgett to the devilish teachings in the Bible. Her mom told me she burned ALL the books & bible that she got from 'that group'...
About three months later, I was witnessed to while on vacation in Florida. He turned out to be with TWI…(a smooth ’talker’, which I later found out was a Heroin Addict )
I’ve always wondered about Bridgett’s mom... she ALWAYS smelled of hard liquor, and ALWAYS had a cigarette going... her husband left her when her two kids were small... and Bridgett’s older brother NEVER came home for visits... <_<
Bridgett too, was a kind, tender hearted person, always pointing out the positives for other people… not many people knew of her turmoil, especially in her younger years. During High School, Miss C just kept everything ‘quiet’….
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Lori
How sad, SV!
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Kit Sober
Suicide is not a solitary act. A person may think he is alone and that no one cares, etc. but suicide does affect others, as responses here also demonstrate.
The answer, I believe, to Cain's question, "Am I my brother's keeper?" is "Yes." (Else the Lord would not have asked Cain where he was:))
Twenty years ago the Lord told me that I was a person's only friend, and at first I handled this commission pretty faithfully. And then in the course of my own heartaches, and it looked like Mike had gotten some friends, including a girlfriend, and I quit that job (I never got on an outside-of-work friendship with Mike). I did keep in touch with one co-worker, and found that a few months after I left, Mike committed suicide.
As also shown in Wayside's story of his dad's advice the "it would break your mother's heart" for him to commit suicide, the victims of suicide are the ones left behind as well as the one who dies.
And Thank you Allan W and others who tell that I am not alone in being careful of others' sadness because of a past failure to give to others the compassion the the Lord has so kindly given to me.
In hope,
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nolongerlurking
A "christian" friend of Chuck's called yesterday when I was over at his house going thru some of his papers. This "friend" asked when the funeral would be and wanted to know what happened to him. I told him that Chuck's note said he's just had enuf. That his mind and body had ceased to function properly, and that he could no longer live with the pain, the fear, and the confusion.
The "friend" said "oh, no". So I asked what he meant because his tone sounded funny to me. Turns out that he had been with Chuck the Sunday before he killed himself. Taken him to church. Chuck had told him that he felt suicidal. Remorseful over the life he had lived. Remorseful about how he'd screwed up his relationships with me and Shannon. And his body was in physical pain.
This person I'll call Ray said he told Chuck that suicide was "against God's rules". That things would improve and that he would help him. BUT, Ray didn't tell anyone else about Chuck's confession. Nor did Ray physically accompany Chuck to a hospital for medical/psychological intervenion. They parted ways after church. Four days later, Chuck was dead.
After this phone conversation I was really angry. That someone had this information and did nothing. Perhaps Chuck would still be here today if Ray had done more than give him God's "word" to help him deal with things.
I am ok, I suffer my pain in waves. I cry from time to time. I hyperventilate on the freeway. But Shannon is in utter despair. She called me just now and asked if I could call her work and tell them she wanted the day off. She was up all night crying, screaming, throwing things. She's angry at Chuck, angry at herself, and angry at anyone else who happens to be around. She just wants the day alone to be with him. To feel him, to feel his pain, to feel his presence. With no interruptions. She has a psychologist friend and she plans to go for counseling. I cry for her. I know what this feels like, just a little. My folks were happy tho, and they didn't choose to leave me and my brother behind.
Chuck's legacy to Shannon, and to his other family and friends, is one of painful existance. Day to day poverty. Utter refusal to see life in a different light than that of regret and remorse. I don't know if anybody could have helped Chuck. He was under a doctor's care for his depression and recent psychotic episodes. He had a roomate living with him who was there the night Chuck killed himself. Bob would have been more than happy if Chuck had awoken him for help and feels his own anger and regret for not seeing it coming. But he didn't. Chuck had a girlfriend who loved him who is also broken over this. He didn't even say anything to or about her in his final note. His friends always were over at his house trying to take him places and talk to him. But Chuck just utterly REFUSED to be happy or content in any way. He was somehow just simply stuck where he was and in the end he felt death would be his only peace.
Shannon can't understand why she couldn't help him. Why she "wasn't enuf" to make him want to stay here with her. Why she couldn't help him. Why her love couldn't fix him.
Perhaps some suicidal people are just unfixable. Just like some people who have cancer, or heart attacks, or even the flu are unfixable. Perhaps mental illness, as well as physical illness, is sometimes enough to kill us no matter what we try.
Chuck has been suffering for a long long time with psychotic depression. That would be depression that is also accompanied by paranoia and hallucinations. About a year ago, he also developed progressive pain in his legs to the point where he was unable to walk any farther than from a chair to the kitchen, bedroom, or bathroom. He was very very sick both mentally and physically. He lost hope in relief and took matters into his own hands.
Now his living victims must deal with their own pain. Shannon has close friends. She has a livein boyfriend who loves her dearly. She has other housemates who are very supportive. She has a job where her managers and coworkers are covering her shifts and offering any kind of assistance she needs. She has me and Dave and a stepbrother, Nick, who also love her dearly. I hope and pray that all together we are are enuf to get her thru her grief and help her find some resolution and peace thru all of this.
Please continue to pray for all of us. We need it every minute of every day.
I love you all.
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waysider
NLL-------Many years ago I had a friend who talked frequently about suicide.I tried to help him in all sorts of ways. I helped him with housing. I helped him with car problems. I helped him get a job when he got out of the hospital. Yes, I even gave him "the word" as best I knew it. I, too, told him death was not what God wanted for
him. Ultimately,though, the decision was his alone to make and he chose to end his own life. I was the one who found him. For a long time I asked myself all sorts of questions like: "What if I had said this?' or "What if I had done that?"or "Why didn't other people try to help more than they did?"
It is difficult to absolve ourselves of blame. Much like a scar that becomes less and less noticable with passing time, the emotional scar will fade somewhat also with passing time but never completely disappear.
Don't be too hard on yourself or others who may have known what was going on. There is likely not much you could have done to change the outcome short of possibly delaying the inevidable.
You will have good days,you will have bad days and you will have some days that seem like a bad dream.
Through it all, God will be right there with you if for nothing else, to lend an understanding ear.
Dn't be afraid to let others help you. It helps THEM to help YOU.
Praying for you.
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VeganXTC
I am so sorry for your pain, nolongerlurking.
Love and peace to you, and an extra helping for Shannon.
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