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Perhaps this explains everything.. looking for.. kids under twenty five years old.. why? You have no use for older, experienced individuals? maybe you are "witnessing"? I know some kids under twenty five.. you can't have them.. sowey.. they are smarter than the average "witnesser".. even without my personal influence.. Most "kids" under twenty five still have all of their teeth.. is that it? you've learned your master's lessons, well.. I know one of them.. who abandoned your kind of nonsense.. and found the Roman Catholic faith more palatable, than what you have to offer..

My wayfer folks taught me if I want to buy a house I should wait for some of our relatives to die. The inherited money they leave would help to not go into debt and stay right with God. They did not have any other ideas. It's good to give your children goals and nice things to look forward to, right?

And to think back to the 70's when Dr Cyclops was teaching in rez that one of the proofs that Islam is bad is that they won't let people have any debt including a mortgage...went on and on about inhibiting people's ability to prosper - and I do mean went on and on and freaking on... What's next? L(nder the idiot, the complete red-azzed baboon disguised as a human, the piece of animal defecation starts to declare fatwahs on GSCers? Edited for this: I am running up debt so my kids can be in good universities. Guess what TWIts? If you don't like my debt on behalf of my childrens' futures feel free to take your wuss version of god and your self-centered control the planet doctrine, place them carefully in a tampon applicator and insert down your throat. Oh one more thing TWIts - god is not first in my life - my children are first - choking yet? ...and to think that lunatic organization once ordained me...any god I would worship doesn't need my money, my hands (god has no hands and all that rot), my children, nor even my allegiance. For you TWIts that put your children in the second tier, having them lose on behalf of your religious nose snot - may you cop lung fungus for withholding from your children.

So what are you REALLY producing.. child warriors.. they look innocent and all. But they are vacuous souls..

This is getting annoying ie. lets have a conversation -- then leave everyone hanging and 'skip town' look Caleb-- you arent some exception to the rule--we are all very busy--if you are going to stick to your word and represent your org as you said that you would then start participating and answering. If you are just another untrustable run of the mill BS'er ---well----we are already getting that message by your disappearance and lack of honest communication with us Its not too late to redeem yourself but your stock in my eyes is going down every passing day that you blow us off---- One thing that I can say at this point is that your silence and absence speaks as loudly as your words, even more so, and so far represents the core of the organization you graduated from very aptly. Promises promises and when it comes to owning up---zilch So far you represent them well

And spoil everyone's fun? He is a young whippersnapper who doesn't know sh!t from shinola. You know, like most of us when we were his age, only most of us didn't know it then, either. But that's different - well, at least for some of us. Linda Z, you are entirely too rational at times. I love it, but it'll cause your "reputation" to suffer.

Rummy - you know I can dish it back with the best of them. In this case I believe the young man was being flippant - nothing more. I feel the same as you about someone coming to my house acting that way, but this is a "public" place, and as such I believe it's best to diffuse rather than respond in kind.

I think this describes a lot of the situation: http://bible.cc/2_chronicles/13-7.htm Jeroboam figured out he had no need of Solomon, or of Solomon's son either.. but don't inflate your ego too much.. you are by no means a Solomon, or Rehoboam.. but you'd be surprised how small a hill of beans people will fight over..

Why else do you think old grampa vicster the first ran crying to geero in scotland? I think PART of the story is true. In his dying days, he saw the political maneuvering, the subtle behind the scenes negotiations.. in short, his *men* (if one could call it that) were actually growing up, to be just like him.. and he was POWERLESS to seize the reins again. So off he went, to what he perceived as the strongest *man(?)* in the "ministry"..to get things "in line" again.. and his *men*, along with geero, ended up carving up *his* ministry, actually whole groups of PEOPLE, like a thanksgiving turkey.. your day will come, bub..if it lasts that long.. I hope you grow eyes in the back of your head..

and this is why your organization won't last. Its built on weakness. In my opinion, also a sickness. Laziness.. Proverbs 24:10 So you can't muster up enough strength to bring about a "revival" of old ministry "values".. so what to do? Find a group of "young men and women" who will take up the cause, FOR you..offer them the moon, of course with a few conditions.. while you stay safe, hole up in the mississippi swamp, barking orders from behind the lines.. eventually, they will grow up, and figure out they have no need for you.. and they will strip you dry.. if you survive that long.. you shoulda just gone back to school, bub..

Next question. What are you going to do in twenty, thirty years, when your "staff" and "volunteers" are beginning to show the wear of age? Sure, pa, mac and a few will get a few "benefits".. without question or explanation. Or it will be something like, "we owe it.. they sacrificed their lives.. and the adversary attacked.. it's da debil's fault.." and that WILL be the spin, if they get some horrid disease, or God forbid, cancer.. will you merely hide these "issues" from the followers? I suggest history will repeat itself. You've got a doctrine which supposedly guarantees success.. a "law" that "works" for saint and sinner alike.. mathematical exactness and all. what will you do when things go "wrong"?

The thing about all of this.. there is no functional "church" to bring these issues up with. It's "loosely" affiliated with likely a half a dozen offshoots.. they must think *they* are *the church* or something like that.. if you "counselled" the *young man* (or rather, the aging morons around him) to just "follow his heart, if gawd called you to do this nonsense, by all means, go for it.." I don't want anything to do with you. You are for the lack of better words with my understanding.. "nuts".. if you are just a bystander and merely advertise his little crock of an "adventure" without some kind of honest inquiry, the same words are for you.. sorry, you're not God. I don't answer to you.. didn't you see the results of this kind of effin moronic nonsense the first time around?

Note: this applies to ACCREDITED college work only. Other words, no degree mills.. VALID or RECOGNIZED technical or trade schools apply also, though they might lack accredidation- something like ITT, Devries or others, who actually have a GOOD reputation with employers. Skill centers may apply here.. especially ones who offer classes on behalf of certain employers. Corps program does NOT apply.. else we might get the same results as the previous poll.. This is the same format as the last poll. You may vote more than one answer.

I do believe you are onto something Oh Great Squirrel. I'd like to have a go-round with the ones that propped these kids up with false prophecies and visions of glory. It's kind of like a wannabee version of making kids suicide bombers in some respects. At least with suicide bombings the actions themselves that the kids are trained to do are impossible to be anything other than violence against the enemy. But some of these kids actually are being taught to think that the bullying is some form of love. AAARRRGGGHHH! YEAH, I REALLY WOULD PREFER A GO-ROUND WITH THE HIGH MUCKITYMUCKS THAT SET V2P2 on course!

Dooj - lots of churches do not teach the concept of accountability - whether the sin was committed before the "come to Jesus" moment or after. This whole clean slate thing is wonderful when you can't go to the person and at least try to fix things. It's a whole other thing when it is used to excuse bad behavior. The idea that Christians should forgive other Christians for doing bad things because they are Christians is too simplistic, IMO.

Dont scare me like that Bolsh--the way you posted I wasnt sure if it was a done deal--I had to go check....Im on the fence whether to go for Halliday or not---I'd love to have him but I'd hate to give up the prospects...most of those kids are just too good and the future looks bright with them all around--- I know that I'd hate for him to end up on the Yanks--and even that Im conflicted about-It wouldnt be the end of the world because it would further deplete their farm system... Honestly I'd prefer he left the division all together I think he'd be a great fit for the Rangers or could be as dominant as Sabathia was last year if he went to someone in the NL --Phillies maybe?

oh and that reminds me of the time I still had a bumper sticker on my car. Some lady at the grocery store came up to tell me about sex scandals before lcm. First time, maybe second, I heard about it outside of HQ.

I think that religion brings out the worst in mankind. I'd like to think differently - but I can't. . . . either. To be frank. . . I am not very Godly. But, here is the thing. . . . . I am not the one to have faith in. . . . to look to or to trust. . . I will let you down. People don't get to decide who is accepted. . . all are invited. For me, what makes the Christian faith what I choose is Jesus. . . . not some pastor or person. . . . or fellowship. In my silly little life I have never met a person quite like Him. In history there isn't a person quite like Him. All recorded in that book. . . (I know). . . is the most amazing individual. Someone who understood the human condition and had such compassion and love. He also claimed to be God in the flesh. He was either a liar or a nut. . . or He was telling the truth. Either way. . . I choose to believe in Him. . . that He is who He says. . . I have faith in that. Faith in Him. He has yet to let me down. . . people usually do. . . even those who practice the faith. . . . The bible is where I learn about Him. . . not what I worship. . . The warning to the Church at Ephesus was not that they had forsaken the book, but that they had left their first love. You get to know the person of Jesus reflected. . . if we Christians are doing what we are called do. . . I rarely see it happen. . . even in my own life. The mark of a Christian is so simple. . . do good unto ALL men. . . . sadly . . . we often fail.

I totally agree. That's the reason why I don't go for the "I would never fall for a cult" bs.

While being on the WOW field just a couple monhts, and just a newbie in TWI, our Fam. Coord. received a huge stack of pamphlets describing many of the things mentioned here at GS.. That was '93.. Being a noob, I read it over, thought about it, looked around, didn't see any indication that any of it had any weight. Must be some Trinitarian making junk up.. Never saw any hint of it for a number of years.. Fast forward half a decade, in Corps training just a month, and all those pamphlets started making lots of sense.. Gee.. It actually could be real!! King okie resigns. Darn it!! It is real.. VVrrrroooommmm... BYE!!

I mean.. if you're talking about a "caring, great man(?)".. some people use the same description for David Duke..

Caleb, welcome to GSC. Could you please clarify what you mean by "the word"?

my "true identity" is well known to *them*. I just have other places I'd rather a google search find my name, first. If you want my name, go to http://www.qrz.com type "kb8pgw" in the search box.. and you have it..

Sorry if it feels like that.. actually, I started out with a few discrete questions to the "source". When they were not answered, the questions just kinda backed up, like a log jam or something.. Sowers grad.. maybe you could assemble these and present them to those who really ought to be answering these questions. I don't know if you are qualified to answer them as it is.. peace

RumRunner, No one gave a whoop at the time. TWI's making such a big deal out of when he was born took all the fun out of Christmas. At least STF doesn't make a big deal out of that like TWI did. It doesn't matter whether he was born in a house, inn, stable, or barn. It doesn't matter whether Mary had the help of a midwife or whether she and Joseph ended up being the only ones there. None of that makes a bit of difference. It's just one more thing to feel like there's a "one up" on orthodoxy. There is "a" version of the Bible that uses house instead of inn. One uses "lodging," while another uses "living-space." Most people don't read any of those versions. The point is that no one gave up their bed and Mary didn't get any special treatment just because she was having a baby. I don't know. I just thought it was ironic how so much emphasis was put on a single word that doesn't make a bit of difference in the outcome.

every person that has crossed my path.. it's been for a reason.. and for the most part, I've figured out why.. even "the kid".. maybe he's not "spirtual" enough yet to figure it out.. :) maybe I'm a voice, from the future.. I've had some of these voices.. I wish I had listened sometimes..

Words from Penworks on another thread, might be relevant here. So "new" group, what are you going to do that is any bit different? How are your "ministers" going to "run to serve"? Are you equipping them with the illusion that a few Dale Carnegie motivational techniques, and a few "positive" bible teachings will solve people's *real* problems? Will this "in depth" spiritual(?) perception and awareness you claim to be fostering in the followers actually DO something.. other than give them regrets for the damage they've done in a few years? Or like the way, will you only be looking for people who are young, successful, and healthy to begin with to "showcase" the "success" of your ministry? just a few more questions.. :)

Skyrider's words on another thread seem to fit here. in the old ministry, I don't think it REALLY was about what vic described with tears in the eyes, "building MEN and WOMEN..". It was about building an ORGANIZATION. People be damned.. And there is no accountability. The guy on top has power to "terminate the program at any time", "dismiss ANY participant" at any given moment, at his SOLE DISCRETION. And he is- NEVER WRONG. On any count.. I bet they "ordain" almost every single first graduate of the program..

Then I wonder how the "board" actually runs. Is it something like the original bot, where two others try to "rein in" the insanity of the third, only to be summarily silenced with the bold proclamation, "thus sayeth the lord"? Must be pretty shrill and intimidating, coming from the voice of a boy who just barely grew past puberty.. does he hold the "magic" wild card? That was part of gramps "legacy" with *his* "men(?)" as well..

I dunno.. what is most pathetic here, is that the people who run the thing likely don't know how to do anything else.. other than to drill recruits and bark orders, try to beat "discipline" into them.. followed by hours of mind-numbing replays of old stuff better off left buried.. in what.. about seven months or so, they will release their "clone army" on the world..

Hmm. I wonder what would happen if OSHA paid them a visit.. plus I wonder about the legality of trade of labor for *free* room and board.. Naw, I wouldn't wish that on them. I may be concerned, but I'm not hateful or vindictive or anything..

Yep. That was me.. what can I say- "It's a living"

I think the participants are being asked to compromise themselves, far more than any possible benefit garnered would justify. What are those in charge willing to put on the table? Seems rather one-sided.. Without an established connection to a much larger organization, I would say they have little to offer. Or any grounds to recruit.. Where are they going to have these "leaders and workers" "go forth"? I wonder if the "survivors" are guaranteed a position in an organization "somewhere"..

damn don39 you have a really good memory !!!!! i was born in 1956 but it would be a while before i met my "father" in the word.....

hi again ham!.........i remember, during the "40th anniversary year", and oftentimes at various gatherings at new knoxville and gunnison, that vic had those special conclaves with and for the wierwille family..........he'd get them all together, you know, children and grandchildren, and pump 'em full of their "special" calling as the "man-o-gawd's bloodline family", and how their individual and collective stand on "the greatness of der verd" was of the utmost importance and significance to gawd!........i distinctly remember don answering one of my questions to him about one such meeting at gunnison, which took place while i was there teaching at a family camp, with, "just be thankful YOU were'nt born into this family!"!!.........LOL!........makes me laugh when i recall his facial expression and tone of voice while saying that!....... obviously, jp and sarah and their families were there too...........who knows what "legacies" vic was holding them accountable to produce for him?!!..........it appears that they both took them quite a bit more seriously, and far less cynically than don did!!..........the complexities and psychoemotional realities at play in identity formation are extremely powerful, overt and covert, even in "normal", functional families!.......one can only imagine the psychological, emotional, and "spiritual" forces at work in jp and sarah, both of whom were in crucial stages of their identity formation during those years of 1982-1985.........they were both "good people" as far as my interactions and dealings with them, both in my in-residence corps years at hq in the early 70's, and in the 80's when i lived at hq...........they never really tried to take advantage of their "first family" status while they were in-resident corps trainees, although there were some unavoidable "perks" which i'm sure they enjoyed.........but, there were also the unique pressures on them as vic's biological kids which no one else in the corps had to experience!! i'm not privvy to all they enjoyed, and/or endured during those special, "secret" wierwille family camps!.........and, believe me, i really am truly thankful that i was not "born into" that family, like don said!!!...........however, it is obvious that jp and sarah must have taken some, or maybe many, of the "special revelations" vic had for his "earthly" family seriously to heart, and incorporated them into their personal identity formation processes.........how that impacts their children will continue to unfold before us all who follow the developement of cff, the "ministry" the wierwille's seem to have hitched their family wagon to.......how it impacted them, (jp, sara and their spouses) is unfolding as we post!...........i can only say that i honestly hope they can avoid the horrible mistakes and illnesses that plagued their biological father!.......unfortunately, don could'nt and did'nt..........................................peace.

Perhaps. But then again, look at ces. Look at the viciousness, infighting, false prophecy against false prophecy. and ten years is a LONG TIME to put off a career.. in ten years, the resources to build one may not even exist. Maybe the others will move on, but where does that leave a 38 year old megalomaniac who won't be able to explain why he didn't do anything in the field of his degree for the last ten years or so? "ummm, well, I ran a camp for a few years.." Maybe that's the plan.. most of these old timers really behind the thing will likely have left this world.. cff will need a new president.. all he needs now is a "doctorate" from akribos or something..

In 2000,Now this is allegedly The money for "Defeating the Adversary" in northern mi,May Was stolen by a Mr Allen Li@t That came from the new Leader in mi a Mr Anderso@ and his lovely wife Lind@ Seems it was not the first time previous limb leaders had skidaddled and taken money Makes you go hmmmmm.... In 2000,Now this is allegedly The money for "Defeating the Adversary" in northern mi,May Was stolen by a Mr Allen Li@t That came from the new Leader in mi a Mr Anderso@ and his lovely wife Lind@ Seems it was not the first time previous limb leaders had skidaddled and taken money Makes you go hmmmmm....

Friggin idjits.. feeding his ego so it'll grow big and strong like the old man's.. If one finds oneself with "no friends when it comes to da word.." I really think one finds oneself without friends. At least REAL friends.. Sadly, I don't see how one at a "youthful" or "feeblehearted" stage of character or development can resist this kind of nonsense..

Hmm. I guess we DO "remember" them who "labored(?)" among us..

He ended up being a rev at twenty-something..

please don't take this as an insinuation or accusation of any given individual in the organization. but as the coordinator of a program.. what do you do IF you catch one you trust your life with putting their greasy hands on an enrollee.. turn your head, and act like it was your imagination.. or that it didn't happen? Do you have the REAL character to "deal" with it? "Naw, too negative.. it would NEVER happen.." Want to bet? If you can't "deal" with it.. even just the POSSIBILITY.. you're not ready by a long shot, in my opinion. Similar incidents happened in the parent organization. People either turned their heads, said nothing, ingnored it, or they lost their heads. If one thinks these questions are hard and mean, consider that the questions on the other end of a witness stand are a heck of a lot "harder".. and one finds themselves forced to answer, in many cases. ask rosie, loy.. Hopefully, I'm almost done here.. :) If I didn't care, I wouldn't say a damn thing..

Those were basically the questions I asked.. maybe slightly more "pointed" however. :) Are they going to have some kind of "survival" program like lead? Specifically.. slip shod to the extent people end up losing toes to frostbite.. or something like the rodeo school.. only a few walked off with some broken vertabrae.. broken legs.. or the consequences of putting off a career, an education, twenty years from now.. These were SOME of the consequences I referred to that people DON'T sign on the dotted line for. Or is it a little "challenge" added as the program turns? If somebody here has a LOT closer "in" with them here, the above are the questions that I'd be asking.. along with these.. what are the people involved going to write about you, twenty five years from now? Are they going to find their names plastered all over yet ANOTHER "vomitorium"? The short term profit- you may get a few who survive, who can muster up enough resources to really move the organization.. maybe even really motivate a crowd.. and I'm sure a *few* good folks will come out of it.. they managed to in the old program.. but what are you going to look like in thirty years..

So why would they even CARE what I think.. Not all the time, but often a dose of reality resembles your referenced curdled green expelled material.. the whole crew involved in the new venture.. they KNOW where the kind of organization they want to emlulate went to in the seventies, eighties, nineties.. except for the "coordinator". My opinion. the same system they are trying to wring some good out of, provided courtesans for the mogs and mog wanabes.. and thank God- YOU didn't take advantage of it. But how many did? I'm sure they won't come forward into the little "vomitorium" and spill their guts.. probably have wives, families they might destroy.. oh well.. it'll probably eat their stomach out for the rest of their days. How much does junior really know about the "history of da way"? we didn't get very far..

Another thought.. with such a CLOSE resemblence to a product of "The Way International".. I'd be quite suprised if they didn't get a letter from twi's legal "champions".. especially since Mc***en is involved in it..

Maybe he hasn't considered.. in twenty or thirty years, the "trainees" will be giving THEIR evaluations.. and it might be in a place like this..

As far as the "young man" is concerned.. I think he's brilliant. Graduated Cum Laude.. very intelligent. lots of potential.. WHY IS HE HANGING AROUND A BUNCH OF "GEEZERS" close to three times his age, who want to resurrect some OLD program? He may be brilliant.. but "unproven".. like you said he is a "young" man. Why are a BUNCH OF OLD GEEZERS carrying a banner with HIS name on it? I think these are reasonable questions.. I've been really nice with any characterizations I've made, to this point..

Or it is a voice of HONEST DAMN INQUIRY. The questions the *in* crowd won't ask.. where heads bob up and down at every level of the "tree".. "yaw, that's a good idea. I heard it's a good idea.. it's a good idea after all.. sounds biblical.." I just wish I didn't have to ask them here.. I'm not going to ask them at the portals of the mutual admiration society.. just get the same answers..

It seems all I get are more questions. So Mc*&LL*n is organizing it.. So is the youngster's organization and idea, or Mc's? WHY is the youngster's name on it? just more questions.. I don't want to GUESS motive.. but I will if that's my only option.. but what do they care what I think anyway.. with the only information I have.. my own personal conclusion is the youngster's name is being taken advantage of. I'd really like to be proven wrong in this particular matter.

signals: "... They're tax-exempt and someone has to pay their share." Could you possibly explain? Paying someone's "Share", you are implying that someone owes shares, to what do they woe a share? :-) Is there something that if one person did not pay, then others would have to pay more? I know, and you know, that you can not possibly be talking about income taxes here in America. Where the Federal government went nicely without Income taxes; 1777-1935. And where even today income-taxation still amounts to a minority of the Federal budget. So what shares are you talking about? :-)

Put an Alka Seltzer under your tongue at the beginning of fellowship...when somebody speaks in tongues...start growling and letting the foam run out of your mouth...