Leaderboard

Perhaps this explains everything.. looking for.. kids under twenty five years old.. why? You have no use for older, experienced individuals? maybe you are "witnessing"? I know some kids under twenty five.. you can't have them.. sowey.. they are smarter than the average "witnesser".. even without my personal influence.. Most "kids" under twenty five still have all of their teeth.. is that it? you've learned your master's lessons, well.. I know one of them.. who abandoned your kind of nonsense.. and found the Roman Catholic faith more palatable, than what you have to offer..

My wayfer folks taught me if I want to buy a house I should wait for some of our relatives to die. The inherited money they leave would help to not go into debt and stay right with God. They did not have any other ideas. It's good to give your children goals and nice things to look forward to, right?

And to think back to the 70's when Dr Cyclops was teaching in rez that one of the proofs that Islam is bad is that they won't let people have any debt including a mortgage...went on and on about inhibiting people's ability to prosper - and I do mean went on and on and freaking on... What's next? L(nder the idiot, the complete red-azzed baboon disguised as a human, the piece of animal defecation starts to declare fatwahs on GSCers? Edited for this: I am running up debt so my kids can be in good universities. Guess what TWIts? If you don't like my debt on behalf of my childrens' futures feel free to take your wuss version of god and your self-centered control the planet doctrine, place them carefully in a tampon applicator and insert down your throat. Oh one more thing TWIts - god is not first in my life - my children are first - choking yet? ...and to think that lunatic organization once ordained me...any god I would worship doesn't need my money, my hands (god has no hands and all that rot), my children, nor even my allegiance. For you TWIts that put your children in the second tier, having them lose on behalf of your religious nose snot - may you cop lung fungus for withholding from your children.

So what are you REALLY producing.. child warriors.. they look innocent and all. But they are vacuous souls..

This is getting annoying ie. lets have a conversation -- then leave everyone hanging and 'skip town' look Caleb-- you arent some exception to the rule--we are all very busy--if you are going to stick to your word and represent your org as you said that you would then start participating and answering. If you are just another untrustable run of the mill BS'er ---well----we are already getting that message by your disappearance and lack of honest communication with us Its not too late to redeem yourself but your stock in my eyes is going down every passing day that you blow us off---- One thing that I can say at this point is that your silence and absence speaks as loudly as your words, even more so, and so far represents the core of the organization you graduated from very aptly. Promises promises and when it comes to owning up---zilch So far you represent them well

And spoil everyone's fun? He is a young whippersnapper who doesn't know sh!t from shinola. You know, like most of us when we were his age, only most of us didn't know it then, either. But that's different - well, at least for some of us. Linda Z, you are entirely too rational at times. I love it, but it'll cause your "reputation" to suffer.

Rummy - you know I can dish it back with the best of them. In this case I believe the young man was being flippant - nothing more. I feel the same as you about someone coming to my house acting that way, but this is a "public" place, and as such I believe it's best to diffuse rather than respond in kind.

I think this describes a lot of the situation: http://bible.cc/2_chronicles/13-7.htm Jeroboam figured out he had no need of Solomon, or of Solomon's son either.. but don't inflate your ego too much.. you are by no means a Solomon, or Rehoboam.. but you'd be surprised how small a hill of beans people will fight over..

Why else do you think old grampa vicster the first ran crying to geero in scotland? I think PART of the story is true. In his dying days, he saw the political maneuvering, the subtle behind the scenes negotiations.. in short, his *men* (if one could call it that) were actually growing up, to be just like him.. and he was POWERLESS to seize the reins again. So off he went, to what he perceived as the strongest *man(?)* in the "ministry"..to get things "in line" again.. and his *men*, along with geero, ended up carving up *his* ministry, actually whole groups of PEOPLE, like a thanksgiving turkey.. your day will come, bub..if it lasts that long.. I hope you grow eyes in the back of your head..

and this is why your organization won't last. Its built on weakness. In my opinion, also a sickness. Laziness.. Proverbs 24:10 So you can't muster up enough strength to bring about a "revival" of old ministry "values".. so what to do? Find a group of "young men and women" who will take up the cause, FOR you..offer them the moon, of course with a few conditions.. while you stay safe, hole up in the mississippi swamp, barking orders from behind the lines.. eventually, they will grow up, and figure out they have no need for you.. and they will strip you dry.. if you survive that long.. you shoulda just gone back to school, bub..

Next question. What are you going to do in twenty, thirty years, when your "staff" and "volunteers" are beginning to show the wear of age? Sure, pa, mac and a few will get a few "benefits".. without question or explanation. Or it will be something like, "we owe it.. they sacrificed their lives.. and the adversary attacked.. it's da debil's fault.." and that WILL be the spin, if they get some horrid disease, or God forbid, cancer.. will you merely hide these "issues" from the followers? I suggest history will repeat itself. You've got a doctrine which supposedly guarantees success.. a "law" that "works" for saint and sinner alike.. mathematical exactness and all. what will you do when things go "wrong"?

The thing about all of this.. there is no functional "church" to bring these issues up with. It's "loosely" affiliated with likely a half a dozen offshoots.. they must think *they* are *the church* or something like that.. if you "counselled" the *young man* (or rather, the aging morons around him) to just "follow his heart, if gawd called you to do this nonsense, by all means, go for it.." I don't want anything to do with you. You are for the lack of better words with my understanding.. "nuts".. if you are just a bystander and merely advertise his little crock of an "adventure" without some kind of honest inquiry, the same words are for you.. sorry, you're not God. I don't answer to you.. didn't you see the results of this kind of effin moronic nonsense the first time around?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,970386,00.html

I'm thinkin' Caleb's been silenced by somebody in the corporation.

So four graduated.. I thought they started with six or eight. What happened, bub? What was the nature of their departure? I'll make it easy. No essay questions. We'll try multiple choice.. 1. left voluntarily. 2. kicked out by "staff". 3. voted off by the rest of the group 4. died. You may choose more than one selection.

If it's noble and all.. I mean.. why the secrecy? It took a BLUNDER on the part on one particular poster to leak that mac is involved.. that its really his "baby".. Go ahead and leave a void.. I don't have much problem filling in blanks..

which brings me to think.. What qualifications does the board have to even RECOGNIZE a "man of God" if they even ever saw one? vicster I, even with flagrant violation of biblical and moral standards, was regarded by them as a great "man of god".. and they promote another one, (potentially) like victer the first.. they've stroked his ego since day one.. probably a "nice guy".. as long as one STAYS on his "good side".. which brings me to another question: Were you free to ask/discuss anything in the program.. including details about the rotten underbelly of vic I and twi? Or would such "rebellion" be grounds for immediate dismissal? Feel free to forward these questions to the "board" if you wish. :)

another question.. on sowers property, is there a shrine, or monument dedicated to the memory of gramps, vp the first? Did they address the known facts that gramps was an alcoholic, and serial sex fiend? along with plagiarism.. that he stole his way into the "ministry", from Stiles, Bullinger, Leonard, and many others? they called gramps, a abusing drambuie soakedthieving sex fiend, "a great man of god" as well.. that when he wasn't otherwise pillaging God's people, he was a great manogawd.. I am left to assume that these are the opinions, and even "teachings" of the "elders" of your "church".. are my assumptions correct? Don't take this as questions asked in seething rage or something.. I'm really quite calm, and asking nicely here..

Maybe that's the best he can do.. or maybe he has a lot of time on his hands lately.. or both.. Yeah, I'd vote on both.

I added the associates option.

Maybe emergency preparedness will be taken up a notch.

To commemorate the "miracle" they could commission a mural on one of the barns, or whatever they call the "worship center".. "Jesus (ahem) vicster, and the twelve, going forth, casting their ballots to save western civilization.." it's another one of "those" mornings.. just humor me.. seem to be having a lot of them lately..

Is that a Guinness that squirrel is guzzling? maybe that's it.. guzzle down about two or three dozen of those, and the "program" will start to look a little better..

If one wants to teach math, chemistry, english, physics, or other field "unlike it has been known since the earth cooled".. one needs even MORE than seventeen years of formal education.. more like twenty five or so.. I think in a year's time, one might come to understand someone else's take on scripture.. how do you propose to impart this level of "knowledge" and "wisdom"? will the "inductees" emerge miraculously with a working knowledge of Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic? or will they emerge with a *closed mind* and YOUR take on the bible?

So.. if you think you're going back to the "purity" of the "good old days".. before loy, before rosie.. what DO you think of mental health professionals, counsellors, and the like? from DWBH on another thread.. I put the same question to you now. What do you think? Is it "the verd, the verd, and nothing but der verd..", and modern psychology and psychiatry was born in a seance? Do you FEAR the practice of modern psychiatry? Do you think that devils abound in psychiatric practice? Or do you think that all one needs is a "hopped up" holy spirit walk, "all nine all the time..".. cast out the devil, remove the cause, and "voila"- the person is "cured"? Do you think that god or jesus oppose these professional, theraputic relationships? just a side thought. Just perhaps.. if your brand of "therapy" goes "sour", some jurisdictions MAY hold you liable. Legally and financially that is. I personally don't have the time to check it out.. but before I hung out a shingle I'd consider it..

Why couldn't they just walk away, and let it be.. the older kids were smart. run as fast and as far from new knoxville that one's legs could take them.. Mac probably bought into this nonsense.. well, I wouldn't want to be an enrollee in the program when things go "wrong".. when the little mogster shows he can't live up to being the (grand)son of "gawd"..

The way I heard it was that there would always be at least two people standing in twi until Jesus Christ came back... then I heard a version about the Weirwille family.... In any case, it's a scary scary "prophecy" (ego trip.)

yeah.. what makes him/them *special*? The real pathetic part of all of this.. the "staff" is our age and older.. you'd think they would know better. Better that is than to attempt to resurrect vic I's dog and pony show.. and bait his young namesake with promises of mogdom and all.. maybe they really think the vicster was the messiah.. I know, not DOCTRINALLY. They'd dismiss that claim in a minute.. but on a practical level, couldn't this be the case? They have an almighty MOG who brought da word like they think it hasn't been known since the primordial fish crawled out of the sea.. all was darkness to them, before 1942.. and his offspring.. MUST be a "holy thing of gawd".. they might as well call him "the lord".. it might be a little more honest..

Oh yeah. They've probably drummed that in his head since he was a tike.. sheesh. I'd say he probably believes it.. that or he's just looking an organization with a few slaves (ahem) volunteers to help fund his way through graduate school.. either way it's troubling to me.. the supposed elders.. there's no excuse to yoke a kid with, in my opinion, this kind of egotism and insanity.. The "promised one" isn't even near THIRTY yet..

so much for the "revised" history about how der vey was good in principle, until madman loyster "took it over".. Oh yeah.. let's just all go back to the "good old days" when the vicster was at his "best".. good gawd..

I really think they've saddled him with a delusion that a whole team of oxen couldn't bear. What's he gonna do when things go *wrong*? I think the blame will go anywhere, except for his egotisical little self..

Click on the link for a lesson in how they operate that "revelation". http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/radio/...with-belle.html

Some of the offshoots are a little more subtle than using the mark and avoid threat though. "whadya wanna waste your time in a *vomitorium* like that? We oughter just be a moving da word.." the implication being that if one frequents these sites are practically godless, out of "fellowship" and bitter.. They aren't giving me many other options here, considering the secrecy, the hiding from light of day.. they won't even say who's supporting the deal.

Christ in the Tetons and Outward Bound are superior to Total Fitness Institute and Lead Academy, which in turn is even better that Sowers program(Way Corp re-imagined and not any better).

hiya ham!!...........i enjoyed those links!.............very interesting juxtaposition between christian professionals and pseudo-chrristian amateur wannabes!........if i were a parent or a student looking for a christian "outward bound" type of experience, or some kind of character building, development program, and i had a choice of the various programs as presented by their websites..........let's see...........which one would i choose??? it is so very obvious which sites are confidently and proudly run by trained professionals.........and.......then........there's s.o.w.e.r.s................ROTFL!!.........typical CFFM type of info........."if you have to ask questions, you're not what we're looking for!"............"answering questions is out of our comfort zone"..........maybe it's because they're so embarrassed about the answers they have to give?.........they do things according to a world alright..........the bizarro world!.........the world and word according to vic (v1p1 that is).......devotees to their father or grandfather in da werd........qualified because.......???....................ahem, qualified at all??? you know, as i scrolled through the various links provided on the link you gave ham, i was seriously hoping to find someone, at least one someone who was former l.e.a.d. staff or something......you know, someone who really has moved on and accomplished something of note in the "outdoor academy" world.......not a one.........interesting is'nt it?........they may all be too busy hiding their vic-roots beliefs and shady "word in business" backgrounds and beliefs.........i think you should send those links to the sowers farm........maybe they'll be inspired to improve their site........or, better yet, shamed into dismantling it! thanks again for an interesting, thought provoking post ham...........you kwazy skwewwel you!...................peace.

Next item. You'd THINK that they would be open, honest, straightforward about this supposedly godly adventure.. why does just a LITTLE light of day make them run it further underground? Why are just a few honest concerns met with silence? I believe they think I wouldn't like the answers. Perhaps they are following the example of the parent organization. Glad to keep us informed of eveyrthing from pea soups to nuts.. may as well.. looks the same in every other way..

Yeah.....and if that shepherd (pastor) isn't LEADING THEM TO GREENER PASTURES.......he's "killing them softly with containment."

I'd rather go on some kind of journey in life.. why sit around sucking one's thumb, constantly assessing if everything lines up with vic's way of thought..

Ham, Why are they doing it? They are futily trying to capture light in a bottle...to vainly relive old glory days and to infuse their own broken down selves with "new and improved" memories and purpose, to feel that old feeling that they are "right" again... or shall I say "righteous" again...they are attempting a "do-over". Perhaps they are trying to erase painful memories and correct the errors of the past, and/or to exercise their own personal demons, maybe it's ego, pride, carnality, maybe a mix of all of the above... I think they find insular self validation by bringing young people into it; with the hope that their ministry is vital and of God (a retread of the past legacy), the increase of the young people being the validating proof of that to themselves-perhaps it prooves to them that they are on the right track and validates and insures those vp revelations of old are not falling to the ground...Perhaps because Shroyer is no longer in charge is why this has developed and these particular people have stepped forward. IMO, behind the facade, both are very lost people, one rather naive, the other, seriously messed up and seriously lost, a drowning man looking for something to grab on to..and maybe something to clear his conscious...maybe some self redemtion. Unfortunately they have rejected the pure, unadulterated salvation of God, and are trying to meet out their own salvation with the work of their own hands, continueing in the traditions of old. Just my opinion though...

But why the desperate need to drag some young kids into this.. maybe it'll make the little camping experience in the woods a little more comfortable. Maybe they need omeone to chop and stack the firewood, feed and slaughter the animals, build the farm.. repair the equipment, build the fires, cook the meals.. Iit's obvious they are too old to muster up the kind of stamina to do it themselves. "This is YOUR farm. It will be what you make of it. You are always welcome here.." where have I heard that before.. Why put it on the backs of yet another generation of youth.. How many of you guys slaved away at Emporia, Rome City, HQ.. my name is in the little book in the auditorium as a contributor. I wonder if the book is even still there.

hello again, jonny lingo!..........again, i don't know who joey is, but since you quoted my post to you, and then asked me a question, i'll respond to you..........do you have difficulty referring to me as Don'tWorryBeHappy, or DWBH?.......just curious......... what was in vic's heart and mind before i had personal interactions with him (beginning in 1970 and continuing through to just a few days before he died of cancer in may, 1985)......is hard for me to honestly determine........the "events" he describes as occurring in 1942, which he referred to as the "founding" of his way ministry, are known to me only by what he says about them.....so, whether or not his descriptions of those events reflect a pure-hearted, young christian minister searching for god and his "true word" would only be a matter of my opinion............i did have access to his "personal library" during my in-residence corps years, which he granted me for reasons i do not know..........but, i read the works of rosalind rinker and e. stanley jones which were in that "personal library" of his, and which he had read himself prior to the events he recounts in 1942.........it was obvious to me, that both ms.rinker, and rev.jones, had a strong impact and influence on young vic, especially regarding personal prayer life.......but also with phrases like "the word of god is the will of god", (rosalind rinker wrote that in a pamphlet of her's that i read), "victorious living", and even "god's power to live abundantly" and "abundant living in christ" (e.stanley jones coined those phrases in the several books of his i read in that "personal library").....he was obviously impressed with rev.jones' accounts of his mission and ashram programs in india..........the lasting impact of these two influences is obvious in "works" vic would later call his own...........all i know about vic's being "led into speaking in tongues" by j.e.stiles, in tulsa,ok, 1951, is what he recounted at various sharings to the in-rez corps in '72, '73, and '74, and what he wrote in RTHST, and what is recorded in TW:LIL, and the pfal class, all of which occurred years after the actual event itself............i did read stiles' book on receiving holy spirit, which was also in that "personal library", and noticed immediately the close (literally word-for-word) "similarity to "the holy spirit book! especially after vic added bullinger's "the giver and his gifts" to the manuscript!..........i also read the syllabus vic had to b.g.leonard's "gifts of the spirit" class, which he first took in 1953..........again, the "definitions of the manifestations" almost verbatim repeated in vic's advanced class syllabus, along with the identical scripture references, and even the names "maggie muggins", and "johnny jump-up"!...........quite obvious the impact that class and syllabus had on young vic!! i also read the books by rufus mosely, glenn clark, albert cliffe, oral roberts and billy graham that were in that "personal library"............even giving oral book reports on a few of them to the in-rez corps during lunchtimes in the brc basement!...........these folks influenced vic during the post war years, 1946-1952........i read vic's pamphlet on "the dilemma of foreign missions in india", and mrs. wierwille's diary of their trip to india in 1955, (her diary that i saw consisted of both handwritten and typed entries she made during the trip.....quite interesting!)........there were also a number of correspondences between vic and his denominational leaders, written after vic's return from india, and including some of the accusations against him, which eventually led to his "separation" from the denomination......there were allegations of "financial improprieties", "deliberate misrepresentations", and even mysteriously veiled references to "personal misconduct" with his "church secretary", among the arguments over his "unofficial" trip to india!.........most intersting indeed....but, again, i was not personally present during any events prior to 1970............so, anything i would have to say about them would be in the category of "my opinion"..........also in that personal library were bullinger's "the church epistles", several volumes of bullinger's journal, "of things to come", bullinger's book on the book of revelation, "the just and the justifier", by charles welch, several volumes of welch's research journal, "the berean expositor", "the great cloud of witnesses", on the book of hebrews, and various other books that i did not read and other titles i do not remember........all-in-all, a vivid experience in reading for me as a 21 year old way corps "volunteer"! now, as to what "i have to say to that"..........it appeared to me, that during the decade of the 1940's, young vic was really worried about whether or not he had made the right choice by going "into the ministry".......he appears to me to have been genuinely searching for an answer to that nagging question,......those were the years he read e.stanley jones, rosalind rinker, glenn clark, rufus mosely, albert cliffe, oral roberts, billy graham, and various other christian authors, missionaries, theologians, philosophers.........it always intrigued me that vic dated the founding of twi as the 1942 "gas pumps revelation", followed closely by his first vesper chimes broadcast, which followed the "gas pumps" by only a few days or weeks.............i never understood the time lag of 11 to 15 years between the "founding" and the emergence of pfal into the form we came to know, which really did'nt happen until the late 50's and early 60's...........but, imo, the severe "corruption" began for vic in the fall of 1953, when he first taught b.g's. class on gifts of the spirit, calling it his own, by the second time he taught it himself in early 1954........later in 1954, after doc higgins intoduced vic to the works of e.w.bullinger, and vic "ran into" k.c. pillai, pfal began to morph into the class we all took in the 60's, 70's and 80's.....certainly, by the final days in the van wert church in 1956-1957, vic's "misbehavior", financially, sexually, and his unabashed "commitment" to the "fine art" of plagiarism in his academics and "biblical research", were firmly entrenched into his man-of-god persona, with the alcoholism pretty much in place by the mid-to-late 60's............please understand, that my opinions today reflect my entire twi experience, including the last 22 years of post-twi learning, re-examination, re-searching all the twi materials, and the works of those who had the greatest impact on vic's "spiritual developement"..............a long trip from those early in-rez daze, reading as much as i could during the times i had access to that "personal library"!.........i'm not that young, wide-eyed, idealistic, hippie i was back then, but i am surely thankful for all the good experiences i had during the years i spent in twi from 1970 to 1982.........the years from 1982-1988, were not nearly as much fun, but i sure learned alot, and i am truly happy with where my life is at today! so, jonny lingo............that's all i have to say about that!............................................peace.

From the rants on the tapes, I thought he was furious they were teaching what was supposedly ministry-owned materials. Wouldn't suprise me if they made off with a bunch of material stuff.. but who knows.. I never heard anything to really verify it. I know they had loads of books and stuff in limb bookstores. I know they made off with mailing lists.. pfal being "stolen".. I think he was furious he sold away publication rights to another madman- gear.

Let see.... Lcm after the fog years... Startrd saying people stole from the ministry... Cars pfal suppossedly money... Pfal was an issue as it was not copy righted.. Someone else may fill in the blanks... These offshoots had monies from someone..... I know he ranted and raved on the sunday tapes.. After all what I said about stealing was not based on any inside info

Ya know.. the discipline and focus you beat into people very well may one day turn against you..

Having to explain to someone in admissions that you put off getting a degree, in what you're REALLY good at until you're fifty because you p*ssed away twenty five years in a "religious group" (note that I'm being kind here) isn't really all so bad..

Lets see Jeff m@@n?

Yeah it aint the company line,I was told mind you told not to be radical,and they hardly knew me from adam.So..Do they have preconceived notions? They oughta bury the godblessed tree,start over from scratch. They are your father ministry,lock stock and barrel I told em I was an independant,I know that raised some neck hairs!! Ham,I enjoy your outlook keep on speaking

Slander isn't exactly the issue here. It's.. these yokels want to perpeptuate the same system that allowed loy, vic and others to pillage God's people.. in my opinion, as mistaken as it may, or may not be. That very well may not be their aim. They very well may have good intentions. But look where good intentions led us once before.. a "survival program" which sets a hierarchy in one or more organizations.. you tell me. I asked the questions, and I did NOT get the answers. Just a lot of religious run around..

I dunno Is it just me or has anyone else ever noticed that photos of Hitler don't exactly exemplify features of the so-called master race he touted? But, who's to say? Maybe those old black and white photos just don't do justice to the blond hair and blue eyes that would have defined him as the ultimate role model he would logically have been.

A slippery slope indeed, Tref.