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Perhaps this explains everything.. looking for.. kids under twenty five years old.. why? You have no use for older, experienced individuals? maybe you are "witnessing"? I know some kids under twenty five.. you can't have them.. sowey.. they are smarter than the average "witnesser".. even without my personal influence.. Most "kids" under twenty five still have all of their teeth.. is that it? you've learned your master's lessons, well.. I know one of them.. who abandoned your kind of nonsense.. and found the Roman Catholic faith more palatable, than what you have to offer..

My wayfer folks taught me if I want to buy a house I should wait for some of our relatives to die. The inherited money they leave would help to not go into debt and stay right with God. They did not have any other ideas. It's good to give your children goals and nice things to look forward to, right?

And to think back to the 70's when Dr Cyclops was teaching in rez that one of the proofs that Islam is bad is that they won't let people have any debt including a mortgage...went on and on about inhibiting people's ability to prosper - and I do mean went on and on and freaking on... What's next? L(nder the idiot, the complete red-azzed baboon disguised as a human, the piece of animal defecation starts to declare fatwahs on GSCers? Edited for this: I am running up debt so my kids can be in good universities. Guess what TWIts? If you don't like my debt on behalf of my childrens' futures feel free to take your wuss version of god and your self-centered control the planet doctrine, place them carefully in a tampon applicator and insert down your throat. Oh one more thing TWIts - god is not first in my life - my children are first - choking yet? ...and to think that lunatic organization once ordained me...any god I would worship doesn't need my money, my hands (god has no hands and all that rot), my children, nor even my allegiance. For you TWIts that put your children in the second tier, having them lose on behalf of your religious nose snot - may you cop lung fungus for withholding from your children.

So what are you REALLY producing.. child warriors.. they look innocent and all. But they are vacuous souls..

This is getting annoying ie. lets have a conversation -- then leave everyone hanging and 'skip town' look Caleb-- you arent some exception to the rule--we are all very busy--if you are going to stick to your word and represent your org as you said that you would then start participating and answering. If you are just another untrustable run of the mill BS'er ---well----we are already getting that message by your disappearance and lack of honest communication with us Its not too late to redeem yourself but your stock in my eyes is going down every passing day that you blow us off---- One thing that I can say at this point is that your silence and absence speaks as loudly as your words, even more so, and so far represents the core of the organization you graduated from very aptly. Promises promises and when it comes to owning up---zilch So far you represent them well

And spoil everyone's fun? He is a young whippersnapper who doesn't know sh!t from shinola. You know, like most of us when we were his age, only most of us didn't know it then, either. But that's different - well, at least for some of us. Linda Z, you are entirely too rational at times. I love it, but it'll cause your "reputation" to suffer.

Rummy - you know I can dish it back with the best of them. In this case I believe the young man was being flippant - nothing more. I feel the same as you about someone coming to my house acting that way, but this is a "public" place, and as such I believe it's best to diffuse rather than respond in kind.

I think this describes a lot of the situation: http://bible.cc/2_chronicles/13-7.htm Jeroboam figured out he had no need of Solomon, or of Solomon's son either.. but don't inflate your ego too much.. you are by no means a Solomon, or Rehoboam.. but you'd be surprised how small a hill of beans people will fight over..

Why else do you think old grampa vicster the first ran crying to geero in scotland? I think PART of the story is true. In his dying days, he saw the political maneuvering, the subtle behind the scenes negotiations.. in short, his *men* (if one could call it that) were actually growing up, to be just like him.. and he was POWERLESS to seize the reins again. So off he went, to what he perceived as the strongest *man(?)* in the "ministry"..to get things "in line" again.. and his *men*, along with geero, ended up carving up *his* ministry, actually whole groups of PEOPLE, like a thanksgiving turkey.. your day will come, bub..if it lasts that long.. I hope you grow eyes in the back of your head..

and this is why your organization won't last. Its built on weakness. In my opinion, also a sickness. Laziness.. Proverbs 24:10 So you can't muster up enough strength to bring about a "revival" of old ministry "values".. so what to do? Find a group of "young men and women" who will take up the cause, FOR you..offer them the moon, of course with a few conditions.. while you stay safe, hole up in the mississippi swamp, barking orders from behind the lines.. eventually, they will grow up, and figure out they have no need for you.. and they will strip you dry.. if you survive that long.. you shoulda just gone back to school, bub..

Next question. What are you going to do in twenty, thirty years, when your "staff" and "volunteers" are beginning to show the wear of age? Sure, pa, mac and a few will get a few "benefits".. without question or explanation. Or it will be something like, "we owe it.. they sacrificed their lives.. and the adversary attacked.. it's da debil's fault.." and that WILL be the spin, if they get some horrid disease, or God forbid, cancer.. will you merely hide these "issues" from the followers? I suggest history will repeat itself. You've got a doctrine which supposedly guarantees success.. a "law" that "works" for saint and sinner alike.. mathematical exactness and all. what will you do when things go "wrong"?

The thing about all of this.. there is no functional "church" to bring these issues up with. It's "loosely" affiliated with likely a half a dozen offshoots.. they must think *they* are *the church* or something like that.. if you "counselled" the *young man* (or rather, the aging morons around him) to just "follow his heart, if gawd called you to do this nonsense, by all means, go for it.." I don't want anything to do with you. You are for the lack of better words with my understanding.. "nuts".. if you are just a bystander and merely advertise his little crock of an "adventure" without some kind of honest inquiry, the same words are for you.. sorry, you're not God. I don't answer to you.. didn't you see the results of this kind of effin moronic nonsense the first time around?

I was perusing the STF website in an attempt to find out more about what STF has been up to during the time that MG was removed as president and his later resignation from the BOD, and happened upon a 1+ hour teaching on the birth of Jesus. I wondered what JWS could add that no one else had uncovered. Well, nothing. The hour-long podcast delved into the notion that Jesus was born at someone's house instead of an "inn," and that this had been known by biblical scholars for a long time. Duh! Then we get regaled by a purely speculative account of what could have happened during the birth of Jesus and how adding this speculation makes the birth of Jesus so much more meaningful. John, I was really hoping that you would have gotten into more of why Matthew's account of Jesus' birth is so very different than Luke's. In Matthew, it appears that Mary & Joseph actually live in Bethlehem, and they take off for Egypt after God warns them about Herod. I wanted you to explain how a "star" could guide people to Herod, how Herod's people would know about Bethlehem, yet be utterly unaware of a star that attracted people from the east. I wanted to know how a star could literally be above one house, given the relative proximity of dwellings. I wanted to know why everyone didn't go, considering Bethlehem is an easy 2.5 hour walk from the old city of Jerusalem. I wanted to know how you reconcile this account with Luke's version, which puts Mary and Joseph in Nazareth, who go to Bethlehem only after a logistically mind-boggling census brings them to Bethlehem just days/hours before Jesus' birth, and how Joseph and Mary returned to Nazareth with Jesus instead of heading off to Egypt as is stated in Matthew. In light of the huge variance in the birth accounts, doesn't focusing on how a word is rendered in English seems a bit trivial?

I love those fan trades where players you don't care about, plus a 'prospect', are offered up for a major player. Yeah, the Jays will jump at that deal.

while we are on questions.. here's another to place in the queue.. How much alcohol does "staff" consume? i.e. those in *charge*.. the "elders".. Anybody in their right mind shouldn't have a problem figuring out this is not an "ignorant or unlearned" question.. I think the reason I see no answers is because they will only lead to harder questions. and you think it isn't any of my business to enquire, bub? who's is it supposed to be? The "participants" of the program? You've already elevated yourself to godhood with regards to them..

Maybe he was. I'm still not sure that sparring with anyone does anything other than teach someone how to defend and attack. The problem with taking this tactic is that the physical response drains the blood from the head, which causes people to start reacting and stop thinking. I don't believe he is a threat in the real sense of the word, so the response is unwarranted (IMO) and unproductive (again, IMO). He made a typical "opinionated newbie" entrance into this forum. Even though it's a universal experience in every forum I've frequented since 1992, and most of us regulars here should be aware that it happens, there's always a few who pounce on the person (with a highly developed sense of justification for doing so). Is it necessary? If he leaves and never comes back, we (collectively) can rationalize those reasons all we want (and are free to do so), but there will be the element that we (collectively) wouldn't meet him where he is. In my world, that's not something to be proud of.

and while you're working on these.. here are a few more. Exactly who is on staff there? What kind of background do they have to perform this kind of work.. Did you at any time observe inappropriate conduct between staff and student? i.e. special favors, sexual advances, or even the appearance of these issues? What is the level of education of the staff? Or of yourself, before entering the program? Do you plan on furthering education? Do you think the sowers "training" all you need? How do you fulfil "going forth as leaders and workers".. where do you actually go? Are graduates given staff assignments? and one BIG question.. were you required to sign a "hold harmless" agreement? i.e., agree that if you were harmed by participating in program activities, that you relinquished your legal options for restitution?

I agree. I haven't talked to anyone since MG's "departure," but what little I've listened to tells me they have no idea. I'm just not sure I want to go to all the trouble to point out additional flaws in their thinking. They thrive when they think they're in the throes of "persecution."

People who are depressed have a fair amount of remorse and regret in their lives based on either their actions, or their response to other's actions. I agree that Anti-socials and narcissists have little in the way of remorse or regret to get in the way of doing what they do. There may be times of emptiness, but I would sincerely doubt if it's the same type of emptiness as the narcissist or anti-social. I think it's a different sort of emptiness, similar to the type emptiness experienced by the person with borderline personality disorder, but on a different level.

Thanks for your comments Penworks. I think they have some relevance to a sub-topic of this thread.. I'm not belittling anyone's real love and concern and dedication, even back then, but large numbers of corps graduates had the distinction: "incompetent to counsel". In other words, from what I read from your comments, and those of DWBH on other threads, the corps went through training that really didn't prepare most of them to counsel people with real problems. casting out "devils", "exhorting" people to stay "positive" and sweep problems under the rug- works nice if people don't have real "problems" to begin with.. then it's a matter of sales. Sell them the "problem".. then miraculously provide the solution.. who needs a degree in psychology or psychiatry when they can have an "in depth spiritual perception and awareness"? I know of a "counselling" session of a later corps lady rev gave to a couple.. and shrieked "you are POSSESSED" at the husband because he would not do "exactly as I tell you" to resolve some issue.. and the advice had the potential of causing quite a bit of harm.. I just wonder if this new group is going to follow the same pattern. Seem to, so far.. as far as outside inquiry is concerned. so.. next question. Who on staff has at least a Master's degree in psychology, or even psychiatry? Is the highest degree held a bachellor's in history or business?

"Borrowed" from DWBH on the TWI vs Therapeutic relationships thread: I think these quotes have some relevance here. What is this new program doing, which is any different? They have about one year "wonder training" to teach the participants how to "run and serve"? They'll come out ot the starting block, ready to discern spirits, cast out debils, in short, practice vic's "psychiatry" that ranged from being detrimental, to ineffective. So they want to try it again.. the sad thing is, they are probably starting with a relatively healthy group of people..

But... Isn't this the prophecy that there will always be someone in the Weirwille family standing for God???

some people say you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. I don't see how people think they can set up some kind of paramilitary survivor program in the middle of the swamp, and BEAT spirituality into the volunteers. Submission and obedience, perhaps.. but "spirituality"? The kid's probably had barely enough psychology courses to be dangerous..

Hmmm. Assignments and ordinations.. I wonder how many twenty-something barely out of high school expert "reverands" they are gonna turn out.. better get the mills tuned up..

I wonder if any of the enrollees have been publically humiliated and crushed.. and then sent home "at the sole discretion of those charged with oversight" as an example to the rest yet..

I suppose so. But that presumes that one knows the name of the corporation, or location of the property to begin with. Apparently I'm not "spiritual" enough to handle that kind of information..

You are right,Supposedly that is all god had to "work with". How manipulative they were are.

First off let me say I have not had time to read this entire thread, so if I missed a correction that has already been posted, I apologize. I also won't have time to do much follow up on this thread either. so you can either take or leave this contribution to the discussion here. In reading through this thread over a week ago, I noticed it was being discussed that a young vpw had set up some kind of training program that was a carbon copy of TWI's way corps and that this was somehow affiliated with CFF. I am not active with CFF, but my husband is, so of course this concerned me. I investigated whatever links were supplied in this thread and did in fact find the five wc principles lifted directly (plagiarized-- and that's a whole 'nother issue in and of itself) from TWI's program. This really set me off, so I brought it to Geek's attention. He had no idea what vpw II was up to and that it was at all affiliated with CFF. I did look at the link provided about the affiliation with CFF and it is simply listed as a link for others to click on and investigate, and there is in fact a disclaimer that the groups listed in these links may not (and many do not) reflect the beliefs of CFF. Here is what is important for you to know about vpw II's program: It is neither supported nor condoned in any way by CFF. There is some pretty stiff opposition to what vpw II is doing, and I know more than that about who, and cannot freely say, but it's not supported financially, legally, or any other way by CFF. This program is something vpw II is doing all on his own. And, OK, here's what I can tell you that many here seem to not know or get about CFF: CFF is not set up at all like TWIs internal structure-- here is a quick compare/contrast: UNLIKE TWI: They allow contact with outside Christian groups who do not believe the same thing they do about a great many issues. This does many things:

Yep.. who taught them "how to work".. even with "free" room and board.. I'd imagine it's not exactly Hilton quality accomodations.. millet and hot dogs three times a day.. who knows.. even with a slightly better menu, didn't they used to call something like that slavery? Work to do, extreme "adventures" to go on.. like they say.. "work will set you free.."

Nope, no brochure. I don't think I'd get one even when they do have it done.. Another thought.. why don't the kids just join the army, or the marines.. or something.. the big difference- you make it through basic training and service, there are a few honest to God benefits. The military actually has something to OFFER and individual- if one chooses to take advantage of it. There are time limits now, but a veteran has alll kinds of goverment assistance in regards to a college education. You might not get rich at it, but they actually PAY you for your time in service. A lot of people get some real job skills- where they can go into telecommunications, or construction, or lots of other trades after leaving the military. What are these kids going to do? Go door to door witnessing? I still think they are teaching them how to live in poverty..

I think if they are going to sow the same kind of harshness in their organization, or affiliates, it will rot them from the gut out.

---------------------Baaaa!!-------------------------

Personally.. I think they have delusions of grandeur.. I really think they've gone off the deep end.. we have one guy on the board who regards the "fire ring" at hq as some kind of holy place, on par with Arlington Cemetary.. we have another who stumbled through as abused and abuser, and doesn't have a stinking clue.. but has the ego the size of Texas.. another who just goes along with it all.. "well, it's biblical. It's biblical, isn't it?" "counsellors".. yes men, one and all.. and one kid.. "groomed" just for the moment.. kid, I'd run if I were you.. you're the one left holding the bag.

Thanks friend DWBH. Your questions and observations are certainly relevant to the discussion at hand. These old time "elders of the church" you refer to are the young man's "counsellors". It's.. all in the family. I'm sure jp knows full well how abusive the old man could be. I would choose to think that he is intellegent enough to have observed and remember a lot of the abuse inflicted upon God's people in pa's "survivor new knoxville" program. McM*llen likewise. Why resurrect a system with such a STRONG potential for abuse, and actually advertises it? I think the kid doesn't have a clue.. he just thinks or they've convinced him that the rottenness was just something that happened long ago, that couldn't possibly have any relevance to life at hand. I think they've fed his ego.. got him on some grand expedition where he thinks he's gramps successor.. got him thinking he's got some kind of "ministry". They may not officially support this fiasco, but the ties to CFF are all too apparent. I wonder if they have a monument there in rememberance of "da teacher" yet.. wouldn't be suprised. The worst thing about all of this.. I really do care for these people, and it looks like they are digging themselves a grave they won't be able to climb out of..

If indeed you think you're recruiting the "best".. and it is an HONORS program.. Honest to God.. what is the real NEED to hold some kind of threat over people to "behave nice" if they are really HONORS "students"??!! Even the military can't summarily throw people out on a whim.. six or eight weeks into boot camp.."well, just go home boys.. we don't need any more soldiers today" I wouldn't send my kids to your church.. for all the wealth of Egypt..

At this point, I have real objections to a system with no accountability at the top.. power to pass summary judgement over other people's lives, no matter how "nice a guy" you are, no matter how "honorable" the motive may be. ESPECIALLY a twenty some year old snot-nosed kid.. LITTLE real life experience..

How'd you guess??

Another thought.. Fast growth can be a highway to hell for some organizations. It's it's own worst nightmare.. the old ministry rapidly outgrew it's ability to provide SOUND leadership at an alarming rate. That's providing it could provide sound leadership to begin with. These new bunch coming up. They are what.. 21, 22, 23.. 24.. "we gotta BUILD men and women.." I think they will end up with the same thing as the old.. many leaders as uneducated and unsound as they are inept and unproven. I saw many in the old days side with evil because it was simply the easier route. Or it felt right. Or it had enough money. So many of the leaders of this newer offshoot.. are facing the twilight years of their life.. there's not entirely monumental growth in the organization.. loss of other leaders probably remind them of their own mortality.. why are they so desperately afraid, or concerned- that their "legacy" will pass into the night.. I view this new development as a desperate measure.

Who says ya caint have fellowship at greasespot?

"Whadda I say, whadda I do.." "nothing, son, nothing.." when an "elder of the church" has every hair on his body standing upright over an "endeavor".. It's like.. in the days of Ahab.. what was it.. 350 of them said "go for it, man.." I really pray they are reading some of this stuff.. only avenue I've got.. :)

I've only asked easy questions, so far..

I dunno. Probably be like trying to lobby for a bill against stupidity well.. stranger things have passed the vote.. There's a chili cookoff somewhere around here.. and among some claims are that some of the chilis are the hottest known to man. There's a stipulation however.. the originator of said chili must actually CONSUME a bowl of said chili. They want to "send forth leaders and(who are?) workers.." let's see the guy(s) who want to run the thing with that yoke on them.. for two, three, four more years.. go start a new work somewhere. See what it's REALLY like.. residency in a little summer "outreach" program won't fit the bill here.

Yeah.. might be a good rehab program. If the said youngster doesn't know which end of the brush to hold.. or needs help figuring out what a day's labor is about.. but as a an "honors" program.. or "training" for the supposed elite? I know SOME good came out of the vey corps.. but I also observed several "good kids" that got turned into goons.. and sent forth by his goonship.. If it's an honors program of sorts.. why are they going back to what I perceive as BASICS? Learn how to work a job.. learn how to read the bible.. learn how to persevere in perhaps more austere circumstances.. it would seem to me, that these would be prerequistites to anything considered an "honors" curriculum. I still have a sour feeling in my stomach about this.. plus who's trained for what of those staffing the place.. If they think my questions are unreasonable.. I would suggest- try getting liability insurance for the thing, and see what kind of response you get. :)

It gave me another outlook on twi and it was no good..Waydale March april 2000,right before loy resigned Waydale was the voice of sanity. Twi had become a nightmare,controlling vindictive,actually still pis@@ me off to no end that I was that gullible to put up with that. Greasespot as you know continues where waydale left off.... Thanks Paw.......

This is why we need to keep reminding people that the garbage TWI is promulgating is false, and wrong. They are raising a whole new generation of vipers like themselves, who lack both compassion and conscience. They'll be twice the children of hell that the previous generation was.

As a little boy, my husband was nosing around in his father's darkroom-- his dad's hobby was photography, an outgrowth of his profession as a naturalist and doing television programs on nature and ornothology. He came across (still to this day) unpublished color photographs of holocaust victims both dead and alive. The film had been given to his father by two friends who had been to a camp as it was liberated, and snapped the photos. His dad never "fixed" the photos, as some have claimed was done. He simply developed them. This was not "staged" with dummies and stand-ins. This was real.

Absolutely.

the exorcist scared me. i think there's another one out. should i see it ? scare me !!!!

Make the sign of the cross after every prayer. Pass around your copy of The Cult That Snapped. Ask lots of questions during the teaching. Ask if you can have some money from the horn of plenty because "I'm a little short this week." Volunteer to lead a song, and make it one by the Rolling Stones. Answer every rhetorical question posed during the teaching--with the wrong answer. Ask if your fellowship can go to New Knoxville and take a dip in Rosalie's pool. I think any one of these would work. :D-->

you're not serious are you about that's how they keep the power going to all one person ? for real ? ps. when we write "The Teacher" at Box 328 New Knoxville OH 45871, where does it go ? :(-->