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Perhaps this explains everything.. looking for.. kids under twenty five years old.. why? You have no use for older, experienced individuals? maybe you are "witnessing"? I know some kids under twenty five.. you can't have them.. sowey.. they are smarter than the average "witnesser".. even without my personal influence.. Most "kids" under twenty five still have all of their teeth.. is that it? you've learned your master's lessons, well.. I know one of them.. who abandoned your kind of nonsense.. and found the Roman Catholic faith more palatable, than what you have to offer..

My wayfer folks taught me if I want to buy a house I should wait for some of our relatives to die. The inherited money they leave would help to not go into debt and stay right with God. They did not have any other ideas. It's good to give your children goals and nice things to look forward to, right?

And to think back to the 70's when Dr Cyclops was teaching in rez that one of the proofs that Islam is bad is that they won't let people have any debt including a mortgage...went on and on about inhibiting people's ability to prosper - and I do mean went on and on and freaking on... What's next? L(nder the idiot, the complete red-azzed baboon disguised as a human, the piece of animal defecation starts to declare fatwahs on GSCers? Edited for this: I am running up debt so my kids can be in good universities. Guess what TWIts? If you don't like my debt on behalf of my childrens' futures feel free to take your wuss version of god and your self-centered control the planet doctrine, place them carefully in a tampon applicator and insert down your throat. Oh one more thing TWIts - god is not first in my life - my children are first - choking yet? ...and to think that lunatic organization once ordained me...any god I would worship doesn't need my money, my hands (god has no hands and all that rot), my children, nor even my allegiance. For you TWIts that put your children in the second tier, having them lose on behalf of your religious nose snot - may you cop lung fungus for withholding from your children.

So what are you REALLY producing.. child warriors.. they look innocent and all. But they are vacuous souls..

This is getting annoying ie. lets have a conversation -- then leave everyone hanging and 'skip town' look Caleb-- you arent some exception to the rule--we are all very busy--if you are going to stick to your word and represent your org as you said that you would then start participating and answering. If you are just another untrustable run of the mill BS'er ---well----we are already getting that message by your disappearance and lack of honest communication with us Its not too late to redeem yourself but your stock in my eyes is going down every passing day that you blow us off---- One thing that I can say at this point is that your silence and absence speaks as loudly as your words, even more so, and so far represents the core of the organization you graduated from very aptly. Promises promises and when it comes to owning up---zilch So far you represent them well

And spoil everyone's fun? He is a young whippersnapper who doesn't know sh!t from shinola. You know, like most of us when we were his age, only most of us didn't know it then, either. But that's different - well, at least for some of us. Linda Z, you are entirely too rational at times. I love it, but it'll cause your "reputation" to suffer.

Rummy - you know I can dish it back with the best of them. In this case I believe the young man was being flippant - nothing more. I feel the same as you about someone coming to my house acting that way, but this is a "public" place, and as such I believe it's best to diffuse rather than respond in kind.

I think this describes a lot of the situation: http://bible.cc/2_chronicles/13-7.htm Jeroboam figured out he had no need of Solomon, or of Solomon's son either.. but don't inflate your ego too much.. you are by no means a Solomon, or Rehoboam.. but you'd be surprised how small a hill of beans people will fight over..

Why else do you think old grampa vicster the first ran crying to geero in scotland? I think PART of the story is true. In his dying days, he saw the political maneuvering, the subtle behind the scenes negotiations.. in short, his *men* (if one could call it that) were actually growing up, to be just like him.. and he was POWERLESS to seize the reins again. So off he went, to what he perceived as the strongest *man(?)* in the "ministry"..to get things "in line" again.. and his *men*, along with geero, ended up carving up *his* ministry, actually whole groups of PEOPLE, like a thanksgiving turkey.. your day will come, bub..if it lasts that long.. I hope you grow eyes in the back of your head..

and this is why your organization won't last. Its built on weakness. In my opinion, also a sickness. Laziness.. Proverbs 24:10 So you can't muster up enough strength to bring about a "revival" of old ministry "values".. so what to do? Find a group of "young men and women" who will take up the cause, FOR you..offer them the moon, of course with a few conditions.. while you stay safe, hole up in the mississippi swamp, barking orders from behind the lines.. eventually, they will grow up, and figure out they have no need for you.. and they will strip you dry.. if you survive that long.. you shoulda just gone back to school, bub..

Next question. What are you going to do in twenty, thirty years, when your "staff" and "volunteers" are beginning to show the wear of age? Sure, pa, mac and a few will get a few "benefits".. without question or explanation. Or it will be something like, "we owe it.. they sacrificed their lives.. and the adversary attacked.. it's da debil's fault.." and that WILL be the spin, if they get some horrid disease, or God forbid, cancer.. will you merely hide these "issues" from the followers? I suggest history will repeat itself. You've got a doctrine which supposedly guarantees success.. a "law" that "works" for saint and sinner alike.. mathematical exactness and all. what will you do when things go "wrong"?

The thing about all of this.. there is no functional "church" to bring these issues up with. It's "loosely" affiliated with likely a half a dozen offshoots.. they must think *they* are *the church* or something like that.. if you "counselled" the *young man* (or rather, the aging morons around him) to just "follow his heart, if gawd called you to do this nonsense, by all means, go for it.." I don't want anything to do with you. You are for the lack of better words with my understanding.. "nuts".. if you are just a bystander and merely advertise his little crock of an "adventure" without some kind of honest inquiry, the same words are for you.. sorry, you're not God. I don't answer to you.. didn't you see the results of this kind of effin moronic nonsense the first time around?

I love those fan trades where players you don't care about, plus a 'prospect', are offered up for a major player. Yeah, the Jays will jump at that deal.

No problem.. my threads are usually semi-organized chaos anyway..

I can hear the plaintive sigh and see the shaking of the head.

I agree. I haven't talked to anyone since MG's "departure," but what little I've listened to tells me they have no idea. I'm just not sure I want to go to all the trouble to point out additional flaws in their thinking. They thrive when they think they're in the throes of "persecution."

frame 57...............SO THAT MAKES IT RIGHT?????............THAT "PROVES IT" FOR YOU?????

What good is a thread if one can't take it off topic.. "organized chaos" defines some of the threads I've started.. It's election day! I wonder if the sewers participants and "staff" are lined up at the polls yet.. I can almost make a pretty good guess on who they WON'T vote for.. somehow, at the end of the day, I have a feeling that they are going to dig in and wait for the "end of the world".. miraculously, the next morning.. they'll look out, and find western civilization is still intact.. just another disaster the mini-mogdafatster saved us from.. I wonder how many disasters he's averted so far..

One thing I know.. I got his attention. Therefore.. my hands are clean in this matter.. whatever happens, the blood is on their hands, should they shed it..

"Borrowed" from DWBH on the TWI vs Therapeutic relationships thread: I think these quotes have some relevance here. What is this new program doing, which is any different? They have about one year "wonder training" to teach the participants how to "run and serve"? They'll come out ot the starting block, ready to discern spirits, cast out debils, in short, practice vic's "psychiatry" that ranged from being detrimental, to ineffective. So they want to try it again.. the sad thing is, they are probably starting with a relatively healthy group of people..

But... Isn't this the prophecy that there will always be someone in the Weirwille family standing for God???

words borrowed from Groucho from another thread: I can't find fault with Groucho for this. The corps supposedly signed on to receive training such that they could acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness. Instead, I think they got training which instilled mog worship and beat them down into a lifetime of bondage and servitude.. so how does this new group think they are going to do any better? "any participant may be dismissed at any time.." "the program may be cancelled at any time" all at the whims or discretion of those charged(?) with oversight.. "those in charge" apparently are above guilt, wrongdoing or recrimination. what if abuse occurs? does the victim find themself waking up on a bus with a headache, 700 miles away? And the rest of the enrollees find the person's life picked apart in some kind of spiritual analysis, as to why they got "possessed"? will they be so well "trained" that they will disregard the evidence, seen through their own eyes, and buy the stories of how der mog is the greatest, and can do no wrong? I still don't see how using the same methods will produce any different results..

Another thought.. what product are those "going forth" going forth to sell? If it's patterned after the old corpse program.. they are going forth as salesmen, saleswomen, administrators.. what are they going to sell this time around? The words of v2p2? Old bootleg copies of pfal? Surely there is a plan of sorts, to make this thing self-propetuating.. even to be an "administrator".. in the real world, a college degree is just a beginning. Four years of study, let alone a years hazing at some recluses bizarro bible world hardly qualifies one to be any kind of administrator.. Then there is accountability. Are these "lucky" few bound by the salt covenant to "those who taught them da word"? for one stinking year of "enjoying" the "privilege" of chopping the mini-mogster's firewood?

Well, I think it's a fair question. How many fringe, or lunatic conspiracy theories do they hold to? The now defunct Liberty Lobby was a prime source of the vicster's "revelation".. how much of this do they lay claim to as part of the "heritage"? Is the "myth" of the six million recommended reading? Or leuchter's "scientific" reports? Still waiting for a few answers.. problem is, the questions keep piling up..

well, until they send me a brochure, I can only guess. But I don't think it's that far off the mark.. There's another question for me to ask.. how much sleep time do the "trainees" really get? it's a fair question.. if they are patterned after the corpse program, I would imagine they have far less than eight hours a day, and a lot less food than they'd like.. still waiting for the brochure..

I wonder if any of the enrollees have been publically humiliated and crushed.. and then sent home "at the sole discretion of those charged with oversight" as an example to the rest yet..

I suppose so. But that presumes that one knows the name of the corporation, or location of the property to begin with. Apparently I'm not "spiritual" enough to handle that kind of information..

You are correct on one point, incorrect on the other.

Their website doesn't give a clue, either. http://sowersonline.com/default.aspx unless the "fellow residents" qualify as staff.. http://sowersonline.com/aboutus.aspx Not much "about us" for an "about us" page..

He might be 24.. just BARELY out of college. yep, JP's kid. I sincerely believe he is more "qualified" to be in charge of a broom closet..

First off let me say I have not had time to read this entire thread, so if I missed a correction that has already been posted, I apologize. I also won't have time to do much follow up on this thread either. so you can either take or leave this contribution to the discussion here. In reading through this thread over a week ago, I noticed it was being discussed that a young vpw had set up some kind of training program that was a carbon copy of TWI's way corps and that this was somehow affiliated with CFF. I am not active with CFF, but my husband is, so of course this concerned me. I investigated whatever links were supplied in this thread and did in fact find the five wc principles lifted directly (plagiarized-- and that's a whole 'nother issue in and of itself) from TWI's program. This really set me off, so I brought it to Geek's attention. He had no idea what vpw II was up to and that it was at all affiliated with CFF. I did look at the link provided about the affiliation with CFF and it is simply listed as a link for others to click on and investigate, and there is in fact a disclaimer that the groups listed in these links may not (and many do not) reflect the beliefs of CFF. Here is what is important for you to know about vpw II's program: It is neither supported nor condoned in any way by CFF. There is some pretty stiff opposition to what vpw II is doing, and I know more than that about who, and cannot freely say, but it's not supported financially, legally, or any other way by CFF. This program is something vpw II is doing all on his own. And, OK, here's what I can tell you that many here seem to not know or get about CFF: CFF is not set up at all like TWIs internal structure-- here is a quick compare/contrast: UNLIKE TWI: They allow contact with outside Christian groups who do not believe the same thing they do about a great many issues. This does many things:

Yep.. who taught them "how to work".. even with "free" room and board.. I'd imagine it's not exactly Hilton quality accomodations.. millet and hot dogs three times a day.. who knows.. even with a slightly better menu, didn't they used to call something like that slavery? Work to do, extreme "adventures" to go on.. like they say.. "work will set you free.."

Ham , just saw you on Hallmark's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, checking for bad nuts for Johnny Depp. Maybe not so off topic afterall.

I think if they are going to sow the same kind of harshness in their organization, or affiliates, it will rot them from the gut out.

I would agree.. if the kids could actually have part of and ownership in the "community". As it stands, the old faarts can boss them around, and if they buck against the insanity, send them packing any time they want. Where is the community in THAT? I was promised that headquarters would always be "home" of sorts for me. Nowadays, for me to "go home" would be akin to trying to break INTO a medium security prison.. The kids would be better off in a commune.. in my opinion. Or go for a little trip on the magic bus..

i don't know... it's just plain weird... all these folks in cff, ces, this "new" sowers group, etc. remind me of the little mice in that book "who moved my cheese?'... they just keep repeating the same patterns over and over again... it creeps me out...

I may not go to your church anymore, but when I ask for a few details, I DO personally have a few good reasons.. :)

I wonder if they will get evaluations like this in twenty five years..

How'd you guess??

I stand corrected. I should have read their disclaimer a bit closer. Still, by offering a link, they seem to be, at the very least, presenting an endorsement. (Disclaimer not withstanding.)

"Whadda I say, whadda I do.." "nothing, son, nothing.." when an "elder of the church" has every hair on his body standing upright over an "endeavor".. It's like.. in the days of Ahab.. what was it.. 350 of them said "go for it, man.." I really pray they are reading some of this stuff.. only avenue I've got.. :)

with the dismal volunteer rate for the "real" corps.. maybe rosie should consider "outsourcing".. could practically sell their current training locations..

Johnny, that's kinda my point. We, or I sent people off to get what was reputed as the finest christian training in the world.. to a group the we (thought) we KNEW.. with instructors whom I basically gave the benefit of the doubt.. vic could do no wrong.. or don, or howie.. or Lynn.. or any of them. I left the way in a similar circumstance as you. It was right at the time I'm leaving the joint, or shortly after, that I find myself learning about the corruption these "good men" weaved into the organization. The guys running this new thing.. I know, or at least THINK I know them. But I thought I knew the guys running the program in the old days too. I would hope so. adding a few precautions would help too. who's in charge of the keepers..

I dunno. Probably be like trying to lobby for a bill against stupidity well.. stranger things have passed the vote.. There's a chili cookoff somewhere around here.. and among some claims are that some of the chilis are the hottest known to man. There's a stipulation however.. the originator of said chili must actually CONSUME a bowl of said chili. They want to "send forth leaders and(who are?) workers.." let's see the guy(s) who want to run the thing with that yoke on them.. for two, three, four more years.. go start a new work somewhere. See what it's REALLY like.. residency in a little summer "outreach" program won't fit the bill here.

Way Corps II. The next, or should I say, the third generation.. I think most people here know who it is.. just didn't wanna name names on this thread, at least yet.

It gave me another outlook on twi and it was no good..Waydale March april 2000,right before loy resigned Waydale was the voice of sanity. Twi had become a nightmare,controlling vindictive,actually still pis@@ me off to no end that I was that gullible to put up with that. Greasespot as you know continues where waydale left off.... Thanks Paw.......

the exorcist scared me. i think there's another one out. should i see it ? scare me !!!!

pfal has something just for you it teaches you keys to unlock the door and how to walk right through so if you want to have a powerful life that's more than abundant toooooooo than pfal is the class for youuuuuuuuu

i think bally boy works for UPS also

you're not serious are you about that's how they keep the power going to all one person ? for real ? ps. when we write "The Teacher" at Box 328 New Knoxville OH 45871, where does it go ? :(-->