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Much of this parallels what happened in The Way. Substitute MOG for "chosen one". Substitute Motorcoach for Alamo's "special" bedroom arrangement. Substitute Harley's for"ponies in the backyard". Substitute babes in the word for "baby Christians". Note that followers were expected to live on minimal subsistence while the leader lived like a king. Note that they had their own special language and were expected to maintain an attitude of submission. And so on. 1.Holding people against their will Most of this was of a psychological nature. When you are stuck in the middle of nowhere with no money or transportation, it can feel like you are being held. Add that to the "hedge of protection" concept that basically states you can never really leave "the household" without leaving yourself open to an attack from the boogie man. And, as was pointed out, there is a documented incident on the front page of this very website, that details the house arrest, at gun point, of a former Way leader. (Through the fog) 2. Withholding food. Yes. In fellow laborers, we had a food co-op. If you didn't make your weekly payment, you had to sit at meals with the group but were not allowed to eat. It was not permitted for anyone to offer you part of their share or offer to make a payment on your behalf. (We found ways around this one.) 3. Beaten with boards I never personally witnessed anyone being physically beaten. Many of our posters who spent their childhood in The Way, though, have posted first hand accounts of severe corporal punishment for misbehavior and non-compliance. One poster has stated that she and her husband were admonished, by leadership, to discipline their child with a 2x4. Armed guards walked the various Way properties and functions. One poster here has stated it was part of his responsibility, as a HQ staffer, to maintain the evesdropping "bugs" in the BRC. So I would have to conclude that MANY similar things happened in The Way.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533871,00.html This is an AP story.

Holding people against their will. Withholding food as punishment. Beating people with boards.

B - are your wayfer folks willing to die so you can have your inheritance at a reasonably young age, providing they've set aside any money.

One of the things that exasperated me when in TWI was the writing style. Everything was written as though it were an epistle. I got to the point where I couldn't ever finish a letter or an article because of the wordiness and expounding on minutiae. Most things took a translator to get to the point. Was this by design?

Why. . . . it is almost as if they have a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words. :) Could be. . . . concerning the idea of financial partnership. . . . . . . in their greed they could exploit one with false words. . . . just a thought.

The odd thing is that if what they have is so unbelievably wonderful as they tell you, you would think that they would want to share it with the rest of the world and correct our misperceptions instead of running and hiding, or just never coming out of the wood work in the first place. Isnt there something about "hiding your light under a bushel". I have sat with Bishops and Archbishops, Higher ups of various denominations and 95% of the ones that I have talked to are straightforward and honest even in regards to the obvious problems that they face. In other words even if I dont agree with them on certain matters at the least they deal with things in an honorable way as part of their 'witness', most of them I have genuine appreciation for....and although I would never use a phrase like "man of God" to describe anyone, some I admire and might consider it if I had no other words available to me. I really dont understand the "we have some great secret that you dont" mentality, or the John Lynn type driveby "buy my book" postings of a few years ago either. Christianity especially the organized kind is hard enough to get my head around under the best of circumstances let alone someone slamming me with "buy my stuff" "Bumper Sticker Christianity" replete with false bravado, secrecy, and an attitude does nothing for me, it holds about as much spiritual appeal as Billy Mays hawking OxyClean or Vince selling ShamWows (absolutely amazing!!! act now!! bring your credit card!!) on 3 AM TV. I'll give him a chance by fercryinoutloud how the heck does he expect to convince anyone of anything with his current stance. He seems like a good kid, Working all these hours I hope that he is saving up for either his years of therapy or his years of alcoholism when it finally dawns on him how they took advantage of him and his naivete. O---and have the damn courage to speak up Saint Vic Jr, Im talking to you, paint your own damn house you lazy weasel

Dooj - lots of churches do not teach the concept of accountability - whether the sin was committed before the "come to Jesus" moment or after. This whole clean slate thing is wonderful when you can't go to the person and at least try to fix things. It's a whole other thing when it is used to excuse bad behavior. The idea that Christians should forgive other Christians for doing bad things because they are Christians is too simplistic, IMO.

That's scary.

I totally agree. That's the reason why I don't go for the "I would never fall for a cult" bs.

My tendency would be to frame it a bit differently. I don't know if you read and listened to my spiel on "compensators" but there are rational and logical reasons for becoming involved in a cult or other highly legalistic church organizations, which has to do with the promise of greater rewards. The "problem" is that you are still deeply ashamed of your choices. I have done some things that I'm not particularly proud of, and while I have been shaped by those choices, I am not defined by those choices. Furthermore, I don't let someone else define me by my choices. When people do to me what your friend did, I actually enjoy telling them that it's me they're talking about. They are usually horrified. I know I am when I do it. Once someone commented about my pretty living room and I said it was my "Jehovah's Witness room." She told me she was a Jehovah's Witness. We had a good laugh over it, after I pulled my foot from my mouth. The truth is that you were able to turn away and move in a different direction. A lot of people can't say that.

Very few people are immune to the tug. Very few join an organization with the idea that using and abusing is part of the dynamic. Some people have no idea what that looks like, while some people have a very different idea of what that looks like. Now you know what it looks like to you. Do you still walk into those situations? Even if you do walk in, do you stay longer than you know you should? If you are able to stay away or walk away, then your time in TWI taught you what you needed to know and do to keep yourself safe.

I don't think being a little ticked off is a bad thing. It's being consumed by being ticked off which is the bad thing.

And then, of course, there's always that distinct possibility that all religions, no matter the brand, are Bullchit (a VERY distinct possibility if you ask me). And all your pious, belligerent pontificating is for nought anyway. Just why is it that The Bible MUST be the fount of all Truth anyway? What evidence do we have that shows Judeo-Christianity to have any more credibility than any other garden-variety superstition? One thing the Bible IS good for, I'd admit, is promoting blind bigotry and prejudice - as evidenced by your posts. Even that gets boring after a short while though...

Over the years the structure of CES has changed, but initially it was a lot like TWI, which involved paying for tapes/CDs and video. When they instituted the "partnership" program, audio teachings and the bimonthly newsletter came along with the partnership. Pretty much everything was sent out first class mail. Even mass mailings were sent straight first class, which is very costly. Now that the Sower's print version is printed on slick paper and is in full color, it costs a lot more money to produce. There is a certain economies of scale, but that break point is in the hundreds. I had always advocated that the teachings and what became the sower should be freely available, and the easiest and cheapest way to distribute was in electronic format. Continue to sell the books and whatever on media (if that's the preferred delivery method by the buyer), but pass those costs on to those buyers. I argued that once you have the production equipment bought and paid for, there is only the cost of maintenance or replacement. If you have the cost of media, duplication, packaging, postage, and mailing materials on top of that, it's hard to control costs. Particularly since they weren't taking advantage of bulk rates. Electronic media has none of those costs past the cost and maintenance of the production equipment. In my mind, it was a no-brainer to move to electronic distribution, and advocated it as early as 2002. Once they were able to move past the TWI model of materials distribution (which revolves around the notion that charging people for teachings makes them more receptive), and found they had the ability to post videos and audio on free sites, only an idiot wouldn't take advantage of that. But they really had to get past the money = appreciation dynamic. The Biblical Unitarian site, which was mine, showed them that making everything freely available would generate more interest. Jeff was really the one who caught on and asked me to set up the TorT site. Both of the sites are dated (visually), and I wouldn't be using the format at all, but the reasons behind that are based on antiquated notions about how search engine optimization works. I think that STF has it wrong about church and that is because it still clings to too many things TWI. TWI followed a "tree" structure, while STF is basically a weed patch. There is no central core of corporate worship from which small groups emerge. STF produces teachings and independent groups affiliate. So to answer your question, I'm not particularly jubilant. They could have been doing this years ago, and they haven't even made a scratch in uncovering their potential (assuming that God wants them to be more visible).

I dunno.. maybe you need another "gig"..

Proverbs 24:10 is appropriate here..

yep. Life is always "easier" when everybody simply agrees with you..

Dang, I can't believe you are playing with us like this.

Argh. What difference does it make? The guy died possessed of a devil spirit (according to his own theology) and finally got outed for being a first class dirt-bag. Whether he meets with his eternal fate after the dirt nap of his theology or if he's already in the thick of it (if he was wrong about his theology), I'm sure he's with that group Jesus said would prefer they had never known him.

hmmm

It must be a shock coming here after the experience of TWI. One of TWI's most highly held values - like-mindedness - is nearly absent here, along with it's close ally - doing away with negativity. You are free to be yourself here, but you might have to support what you say with logic, and not someone battering you with scripture pulled out of context. I think I was here early on maybe posting under something closer to my real name. I arrived back here in 2007 after a splinter group that I was involved with for years, suffered yet another fracture, and I was asked to vouch for someone's character, which is nothing short of ironic given the circumstances over my departure. I had been completely away from anyone who had been involved with TWI or its offshoots for about 2 years and was hap hap happy to be gone. Five years ago I would have spent most of my time in the doctrinal area. Now I don't care. I stick around for entertainment purposes only.

I really thought about sending a copy of that to one of my former english professors, and see what he had to say about it, but I didn't want to see him have a heart attack.. "death by composition"..

I think one would normally have a trusted, honest individual review something like that before publishing it. Was there even any kind of review here? Maybe he's *above* that.. not how he thinks *god* breathes or something..

Yep.. but this last "great" epistle of sorts.. my opinion.. it was like someone took the broken ramblings of a drunken sailor, regarding lost love or something, and just ran it through the spell checker.. as far as grammar and spelling.. it passes the microsoft first hurdle..

Yeah, but it was around 73 AD after the fall of Jerusalem. Been there a couple of times. It is a marvel of engineering from how to get up there to how they brought water in from the west (as it's right next to the Dead Sea). The Jewish people in Israel believe that the suicide was heroic because the people avoided capture, torture, and rape. It is believed that 1 or 2 people might have been alive.

maybe you could define your terms.. what do you mean "edification"? "truth" even as you define it may not be technically "edifying"..

I think at the time the times were good, either because you were happy, or because you'd better be happy. Now that people have had the time to look back (more or less objectively) the perception of the times have changed. I don't recall people whining about their awful cars, or lack of funds, or terrible living conditions. Things were what they were and besides whining only reminded a person of his/her lack of believing. I think it's difficult to reconcile the terrible cost that many paid. For me it helps to remember that most were trying to do nothing more than to be right with God the best way they knew how. Some people choose to cloud every memory with the idea that someone knew most of them were being deceived all along. I choose not to give anyone that much power over my memories. I think it's important to remember than everyone here is free to think, remember, and believe any way they want, which is a lot better than where we came from.

I believe TWI's stance on things is unnecessarily divisive, and especially its stance on the trinity. I personally have no problem with how TWI teaches Jesus is not God. Who they teach Jesus is is woefully inadequate. He basically takes a place behind "the word" and behind "the prevailing truth" and the "man of God." I don't believe God exists as a triune being, either. But I really don't care anymore. I can sit and listen to almost anything now without getting riled up because I don't agree. I can't tell you how freeing that is.

Studied healing? Studied healing?! Since healing is a manifestation of the hs, not sure how you can "study" it. You would think that since we all saw how leading someone to SIT didn't really work, it would be a given that studying how to manifest healing has about the same effect. They may have the gift, but I seriously doubt if it was something they learned.

Brainfixed, Even when I was active in TWI, it was not a religious institution that I could wholesale suggest to anyone as being right for them. My belief then was that it wasn't for everyone. Now I think it's really not for anyone. It is an organization that takes a lot; promises a lot; and gives little or nothing in return in the here and now. Everything that TWI does now is contingent on "The Hope" of the coming kingdom being as TWI states it will be. Based on that premise, people are reluctant to leave the "protection" of the "household" when the household actually does nothing to protect you, nor is there any real guarantee that it will in the coming kingdom. TWI doesn't just ask a lot of people; it demands it under the threat of diminished rewards in the "coming age". My question was who was TWI to determine my rewards as I stand before the judgment seat? On more than one occasion I had to ask someone if they were going to stand in my place at the judgment seat, and since I knew the answer to that question, I could tell them that I was willing to live with my decision since I alone would have to answer for that decision. While I certainly wasn't spared any of the looks, grumbles, or mutterings, along with a few observations regarding my spirituality or level of possession, I left TWI largely intact. I did spend a few years after that on the fringe of a splinter group, but I eventually found that a complete break from the belief system was what I needed to do. Sure there were some "good" times, but I would never recommend TWI as an organization that provides much in the way of good.

Which he didn't. This was yet another example of him confusing the relatively simple. Do any of you feel like you have a greater understanding of scripture because you know that flatbread resembles flat stones and that your father wouldn't give you a stone if he knew you wanted bread? Seriously. Once I had actually traveled to the middle east, it was very obvious the guy had no idea what he was talking about when it came to using "orientalisms" to explain biblical context. A humanities class provides more insight. Once I started studying religion in general and early Christianity in particular, it was glaring what the guy either didn't know, didn't understand, or simply ignored. I don't know. What I do know is that once I took an academic approach, it was really apparent that he was out there.

I think one has to avoid confusing the comfort of familiarity with being real (authentic).

A discussion about this recently caused me to tell my husband how convenient it was that Adam's "punishment" for his sin was to be made head over the woman. It made no sense at all for a "just" god to do that. I think someone made it up.

I guess that's where I differed from the pack. Rather than stand there and scream in my head about the lunacy while keeping a stiff smile on my face, my tendency would be to find some way to deal with it so that I wouldn't have to have all the pent up crap. The "untouchables" had an air of "don't mess with me" and really nothing more. It turned out to be very beneficial to develop a don't mess with me attitude. I don't know if I could have kept that had I entered the corp, but I realized WC wasn't for me. If someone stands there and makes unreasonable demands and you stand there and say nothing, whose fault is that?

He's saying that sometimes your "best" involves doing nothing at all.

Apparently I was never around when the string and tape measure came out. I never heard of chair stringing until I came here. If I had seen it, I probably would have had to stifle a few giggles, as people who need that sort of thing to line things up probably don't have a good eye for that kind of thing. Anyone who does have that kind of eye needs to be using that gift on something more important than chair alignment. Perhaps it was all the focus on the trivial that kept people from seeing the big picture.

The thought of death and afterlife wasn't much of a motivator for me while in TWI. It's even less now. My upbringing was centered around the spiritual world, namely the mystical, so I found TWI's take on the spirit realm interesting. Where I probably diverged from TWI thinking was that I believed GOD provided the hedge of protection, not adherence to TWI's rules.

So, essentially what started out as someone's bright idea for a particular situation became a general rule of thumb for every situation? It must be tied in with that mathematical precision thing.

MG ignored my friend request on Facebook. I guess I'm totally out of the loop now. :(

Exactly. The offering was "unique" through the compensator, who was VPW and his teaching.

A2 Humans seek what they perceive to be rewards and avoid what they believe to be costs. A3 Rewards vary in kind, value, and generality. A5 Some desired rewards are limited in supply, including some that simply do not exist. At the beginning, taking the PFAL class (supposedly) provides great rewards at relatively low cost. You get all this knowledge for the low, low, price of $x. Theoretically, one should be able to take that knowledge and put it to use - BUT - it's really not all that easy unless you are attending twig 3x per week and abundant sharing. If you are attending 3x a week and abundant sharing, you will become a member of the household. Now I used to joke that while some of my fellow wayfers would be sitting in the kitchen with Jesus, my place in paradise would probably be in the outhouse since my involvement was minimal. Your place in the household was in direct proportion to what you were doing in this life to "move the word." The gotcha is that one never really knew what "enough" was. I would wager that every last one of you who went into some sort of TWI "continuing education" or "service" did so with the "promise" of greater future rewards and more abundant current prosperity, which TWI promised would happen if you applied the advanced "keys" correctly. Moving "the word" in TWI fashion and intensity was the ticket, but there was always that sense of it never being enough to ensure the reward. Even in the face of glaring contradictory "senses" information, people were very sure that doing all these things was going to provide them with those elusive rewards and those unseen rewards, so they kept on doing it. One of the ways that was done was through minimalizing the effect of "senses" knowledge and capitalizing on information received through the "spiritual realm," which no one wanted to admit they weren't getting. Then you had to worry about which "spiritual realm" you were partaking in. Since no one really knew the difference, we were to be dependent on those who did. Only those who had risen in the ranks through the giving of money and time (and time devoted to learning the keys) were thought to be able to accurately discern, thereby providing a level of mediation between this world and the spiritual world. People wanted to accurately discern and perhaps mediate themselves, so they continued in this quest by giving more time and more money, thereby earning their way to that position. The only person who wasn't tied into this system of rewards was the founder and his immediate posse. He set himself up as this all-knowing guy and got a fair amount of people convinced that he was the one with all the information necessary to get the special rewards that weren't available to the mainstream Christian. So, while many things that happened in TWI assaulted your senses world sensibilities, the notion that all this was operating in the spiritual realm beyond your understanding seemed rational in the TWI setting.

Honestly, why do any of you give them any level of power over your life? What difference does it make what they say or think? Really? Do you not get that it's this caring about what others think that caused more than a few of you to do things that you aren't particularly proud of? If you really don't like it, put them on your ignore list.

A look at "Christmas Past."

What's interesting to me.. this has been going on for TWO YEARS almost.. and the division between the board members obviously predates this for a long time.. so much for the concept of "agree with thine adversary quickly.." jl probably would argue that that's not appropriate.. wrong "administration" or something.. but REALLY.. they are supposedly "salted" "believers", "brethren".. it would seem to me they could ask.. "what would make this right, brother".. 501C rules aside.. I've heard people say there's ALWAYS some way to make it work out on paper, legally. if ALL it is is money.. what's the big deal? I think this situation is indicative of how fleshly and carnal they have become. even old testament days, one couldn't put a bond slave out empty handed. That is effectively what the board did, did it not, or am I not understanding this situation correctly?

Out of curiosity I looked at the local county court records and there is still a lawsuit between the MG-KAG and JAL. The case appears open concerning the G's and JB as well.

I don't know if it's so much about whether he doesn't have a case.. maybe it's more a matter of whether any potential reward will actually be "collectable".. What I wonder.. are these guys still at each other's throats? What they need.. is a third party unaffected by their particular brand of nuttiness to sit as an arbitrator.. maybe it's too late for that.. who knows.. for a small handful of pecans, I'd consider..

I don't know the particulars. I never read the complaint. I would imagine that JB put the information into CC's hands and that's where he got nailed. There was really no other way for her to get that information, unless it was MJ. What you people are probably not aware of is that both JB and MJ went to work for the company that managed the office computers. Those guys had full access to the systems after they left. They would have had full access to the email system, to the servers, and to all of the backups. When MG told me he kept the IT company - knowing full well that JB and MJ was working for it- that's when I knew he was a fool and had no idea what he was up against.

I wonder, did M. and K. G. have a lawyer file this with the court, or is this a "do it yourself" kind of litigation?