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Much of this parallels what happened in The Way. Substitute MOG for "chosen one". Substitute Motorcoach for Alamo's "special" bedroom arrangement. Substitute Harley's for"ponies in the backyard". Substitute babes in the word for "baby Christians". Note that followers were expected to live on minimal subsistence while the leader lived like a king. Note that they had their own special language and were expected to maintain an attitude of submission. And so on. 1.Holding people against their will Most of this was of a psychological nature. When you are stuck in the middle of nowhere with no money or transportation, it can feel like you are being held. Add that to the "hedge of protection" concept that basically states you can never really leave "the household" without leaving yourself open to an attack from the boogie man. And, as was pointed out, there is a documented incident on the front page of this very website, that details the house arrest, at gun point, of a former Way leader. (Through the fog) 2. Withholding food. Yes. In fellow laborers, we had a food co-op. If you didn't make your weekly payment, you had to sit at meals with the group but were not allowed to eat. It was not permitted for anyone to offer you part of their share or offer to make a payment on your behalf. (We found ways around this one.) 3. Beaten with boards I never personally witnessed anyone being physically beaten. Many of our posters who spent their childhood in The Way, though, have posted first hand accounts of severe corporal punishment for misbehavior and non-compliance. One poster has stated that she and her husband were admonished, by leadership, to discipline their child with a 2x4. Armed guards walked the various Way properties and functions. One poster here has stated it was part of his responsibility, as a HQ staffer, to maintain the evesdropping "bugs" in the BRC. So I would have to conclude that MANY similar things happened in The Way.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533871,00.html This is an AP story.

Holding people against their will. Withholding food as punishment. Beating people with boards.

B - are your wayfer folks willing to die so you can have your inheritance at a reasonably young age, providing they've set aside any money.

By the time I arrived on the scene, VPW was already being referred to as the (not a) MOG and the MOGOTW. How did this designation come about? When and how did he transcend being a preacher? At the time I thought it leaned towards hyperbole, but a LOT of people in TWI seemed to think it was true.

actually, alternative energy sources might be more expensive to set in place.. but once its there, like the hydro power dams, they generally just sit quietly and produce for decades.. the same can be said for well made solar cells. but it is a proven fact that capitalism will seek the lowest cost of energy, at practically any environmental cost. They get their energy at approximately half price in China, compared to u.s. costs.. if they could get away with running old fashioned coal burners in the u.s. they'd do it in a heartbeat. In my opinion anyway.. really.. roll back emission standards and laws.. and penalties.. we'd have a coal burner in every neighborhood.. Lest you cry "weasel words" look at what they burn where they can.. it's "obvious"..

and we're surprised because...

while we are on questions.. Were you taught that the holocaust never happened, or if it did, it was "greatly exaggerated"? Were readings from the Myth of the six million part of sowers teaching? How about a certain reverence toward fred leuchter's "scientific" "findings"? Did you agree with what was stated or have serious doubts about it? What does "leadership" think of our current president? just toss these little questions in the pot with the rest of them..

I don't know what other choices to add. Let me know and I'll add them.

Good points, RumRunner and I can't disagree with any of them.

kinda like high school

Great insight, Chockfull

I know exactly what you are talking about, and you're right about the audience.

You marry the girl, generally, you marry the parents and extended family as well.. something to think about.

*Gardeners.. to your implements..*

Yep. It's a hard life, confronting the world with da "word" and all.. you don't seem to be making much progress here. if you're tired and all.. maybe you need to get about ten to twelve followers, promise them an "excellent adventure", "professional" training in da word.. lots of sunshine, some work to do.. a "future(?)" in the organization if they are committed enough.. and after nine months, send them out to confront the world with da "word" for you..

Love that monologue. I'm just remembering all the hush-hush over VPW's death, only to find out it was cancer, and feeling vindicated.

I always wondered. Now, with a very very big meeting, like the ROA, it might make a little sense.. help people know where to set chairs.. but a class with TWELVE STINKING CHAIRS.. who conceived the thought that people need to spend a freaking hour and a half using measuring tape and string to set them properly? Did somebody decide if it's good for big meetings.. well, it oughta be the "standard" or something? Anybody know who or where this arcane practice originated?

Cheranne, It might be because your issues were not brought on by TWI. The tendency to gravitate or be drawn to cults comes first. Very few come in with glowing stories of their childhood that spoke of great times in a church. People's level of involvement in church organization tends to reflect what they expect in return; either now or in the eternal life area.

Even as recently as a year ago I thought right doctrine was very important. Now I don't.

Since I didn't take any classes beyond PLAF, I don't know the context. What I did come to understand was that lying was acceptable any time the truth was inconvenient.

My now husband made it very clear back in 1979 that he could not consider a serious relationship with anyone who had not taken "the class." Since it was so important to him, I let him pay for it. I imagine that we were always considered unevenly yolked because I never went any further than the class and he was a college WoW, TC, and an ACG. Also, once we hooked up, he was not inclined to be as involved, so I was probably a bad influence. We also lived together before we were married - not as roommates. We didn't make a point of keeping it a secret, but we also didn't openly share that information. I can't tell you how many people advised me against marrying him because he had a tendency to become engaged, but not actually get married. His fiancée before me had expressed a desire to go WoW, so he broke off the engagement. I believe his tendency was to move away from someone who was committed to moving up the way ladder for a number of reasons, most of them involving the increased meddling in people's private lives. Even at my low level, I had to tell people that it wasn't their life and that I did not appreciate the interference. I had been married and I knew what I was getting myself into. If he bailed, it would not be the end of the world. I knew that if he did commit, it would be for the duration. TWI was never the foundation for our marriage. We always kept God at the head and we didn't equate TWI with God. I thought at the time that many TWI corp marriages were contrived, but who was I to make that observation?

This is something I struggle with because where I come from hearing audible voices in your head signals some sort of mental disorder along the lines of schizophrenia. So I've felt a measure of discomfort when trying to hear god, much less having a conversation. When I am around people who believe they are hearing from god or talking with god, I understood why they are doing it, but I have to question whether it is actually happening, or whether they just want it to be happening. The reason for that is because god is usually backing up what they already know, whether it be an "attaboy" or a strong rebuke. Rarely have I seen god intervene in such a way that someone experiences a strong paradigm shift, which you would think would happen on a regular basis, given that he is god. Even as I see the hand of god around me, I have never felt a personal involvement in my life. As much as I have desired it and tried to have it, I've just never felt an actual interaction. What I have really steered away from since my involvement in TWI is allowing other's god-talking "experience" to influence me. It keeps me free from the "should" and "ought" aspect, because according to the god-listeners, I should be feeling pretty empty but I don't. I ought to be leaning to god for "wise counsel" and "protection" when I haven't experienced either one when I tried, especially when I was hearing something totally different from what others were apparently hearing, and therefore accused of having a devil spirit. Why should I "listen" to god when he's (supposedly) given me enough sense to know if I can handle an additional commitment, or what I like to do, or what I need to be doing? What can he tell me that I am unable to perceive on my own? I am free to make choices and live with them because I know that I am responsible for those choices, and not simply thinking that god knows I can handle it when I'm seriously questioning whether I can.

And yet we were supposed to have a "quiver full" of children.

Exie, I think I can relate a bit to what you went through. I was never seduced by someone in TWI, but it did happen. An older authority figure. I believed that I would derive some benefit, so I went along. It made me sick at the time. It turned out really bad and things quickly went south. I nearly lost everything. I laid on the couch for a month in utter despair because of what this man had done to me and how I had let him do it. I was probably in anguish to some degree for another 10 years. Back then, those things that happened to you and I were a fact of life. No, those things should not have happened, but they did. Did I do anything intentionally that brought it on? Not really. I just happened to be a very attractive young woman with a lack of appropriate boundaries and a fair amount of need to be loved. Guys like VPW and the guy who came after me are able to hone in on us like a heat-seeking missile goes after a target. I try not to think back on that time because I can't change what happened. Nonetheless, this has had some fairly significant long-term effects that I am just now beginning to address, and we're talking nearly 30 years. I hope that you will be able to find peace.

I don't think SIT is bogus. Most of what I heard in TWI was bogus - and the argument that we were speaking the language of angels was flat. I was rarely called to SIT. Rarely. I was never called when I felt there was something that God wanted to say through me. After a few years of that I figured that we weren't being led by the spirit as much as we thought.

Oh yeah, and the NASV, the Amplified, the Message - you name it. One of the reasons why the KJV is so much better and so much more accurate is that most, if not all, of VPW's doctrinal arguments fall apart if you look at another version. If you use the study materials, the interlinear, and the concordance that TWI uses, it is possible to come to the same conclusions as TWI. The reason why I say it's possible is that reading the KJV with a 20th century knowledge of words plays into some of TWI's more esoteric concepts. Once I sat down and read the KJV NT with a dictionary that provided the changes in word meaning over the years (which I was roundly criticized for doing) I began to understand the bible in a very different way than was taught by TWI. Unfortunately, most people don't know enough about the history of the KJV to know that it was "translated" from sources that are newer than have been used to create the NIV and some of the other versions out there. The greater "truth" is that our salvation is not based upon having a perfect understanding of God's Word. That is where TWI misses the mark completely.

John - FWIW, I think you have done a fine job.

My question is what kind of "friends" would throw a birthday party and not invite the guest of honor's boyfriend? Wouldn't that have been a perfect opportunity to get to know you better? I would back off with a heart-felt, "I don't want to get between you and your religion." And commend her for her desire to "fix" the ministry, but you're not interested in fixing a religion, you just want to live a Christian life with a Christian woman. To take it a step further, this is an area that will make a huge difference when it comes time to have kids. As long as her family is still involved, this is going to be an issue. Since her family is still involved, you are dealing with some hard-core people who wouldn't know the truth if it smacked them upside the head. From what I can see, everyone who could form an independent thought has been culled from the ranks. These people cannot be reasoned with and really, truly believe they are the sole holders of "the truth". No my friend, it is time to move on. <took out a repeat of the entire post>

I'm sure there are many, many decisions that were made that were just plain stupid. The one I remember the most was the decision to use betamax as the standard for video. I'm trying to remember when that decision was made, but I know it was after 1980 and close to the time the debate had tipped in VHS favor in terms of sales of machines and available videos on the market. This was my first clue that HQ was not necessarily listening to God, or paying much attention to anything else for that matter. Betamax was fine if all one wanted to do was watch TWI propaganda or the small smattering of very high priced videos that came about later due to the initial 60 minute limit on betamax tapes. But to expect us all to spend that amount of money on such a limited use piece of electronics on the basis that betamax was "the best" was just downright stupid (IMO). I'm sure there are other decisions. Care to share?

I think one reason he didn't teach it was that it wasn't written to us (although it's certainly "for our learning"). I didn't hear much about the tribulation and whatever from anyone until after the exodus when JAL sported a bumper sticker that said "I'd rather be gathered". I dunno. I always felt free to study whatever I wanted. Maybe not free to discuss it, but certainly free to study it.

Don't go to hard on Bolshevik. I think his exposure to "commited believers" were the likes of loy, rosie and donna, and let's not forget linder. Maybe that's enough to make one think they are all of sub-standard intellectual ability.. If the "leadership" at headquarters was anything like my last limb coordinator.. this guy.. his claim to fame was he knew enough to not eat bread and vegetables at the same meal.. it's true..

I'd be suprised if they didn't try to sell it at auction.. *"slightly" used dairy tanker..* They could have billed it as a "Prevailing Word over da world double-duty dairy tanker.."

I'll say one thing about "revelation" (or the lack thereof).. I went wow. Next.. what does one do, go corps? I never had any honest to god "revelation", or even a stinking FEELING to do so for that matter. In fact, no one even approached me on the subject.. I thought with such a "godly" thing to do, must be something wrong with me.. but I never went in. I never even tried..

I have been doing an introductory study of religion - none in particular - but nonetheless I have found one lecture so enlightening that I'd really like to discuss it here in the context of why so many of us chose TWI and how it was a rational choice at the time and why people walked away (another rational choice). Here's a link to the download of the lecture. It's about 21mg and lasts for about 30 minutes.

My class took place in a small, cramped apartment. We sat where we could. It was neat and clean, but nothing that stood out in my mind. No precise chair arranging that I was aware of. I served on one PFAL team, which was a joke. I never saw so much passive-aggressive behavior in my life (up to that point). Absolutely everything was 10 times more difficult than it ever needed to be, including setup.

I think most were exposed to this kind of micro-management in the "introductory" class to da ministry.. herded into a small class setting, that started PRECISELY at a given time.. not that that in itself was evil or anything.. but add the fine grooming of the yard outside, the driveway, and even the stinking CHAIRS requiring mili-meter placement in accuracy.. we had to micro-manage even the precise placement of twelve stinking chairs.. if I could go back in time.. pick up a dead squirrel or other non-descript piece of road kill . I'd dump a half a quart of old oil in the driveway next to the street.. I'd pick up smoking. And I'd light on up in the bathroom, precisely seven minutes before class, and extinguish it in the sink.. conveniently drop the previously acquired road kill into the toilet, and avoid flushing.. Then sneak in and "rearrange" the chairs, six minutes before class began.. I think pandemonium would ensue..

TWI was a haven for abusers and the abused. For the abused, TWI's dynamic was a source of comfort. For the abuser, TWI provided an outlet. TWI placed a high value on conformity and being in the corp was the hallmark of conformity. Those who didn't choose that path had to find satisfaction in other ways, and that usually involved spending time socializing our children to conform to TWI "standards" of acceptable behavior, and doing penance in the form of unpaid labor for leadership and allowing them way too much access into our personal lives. The mixed signals you got from your parents undoubtedly added to your psychic pain. I have no doubt that both parents were in a war of wills with you children squarely in the middle. I doubt if it's much consolation, but what went on with you is common in families with parents who have radical differences in religious beliefs and parenting practices. A lot of blame gets thrown around and the kids always lose.

That's pretty pathetic.

Which begs the question: (mustering up my best Dr. Phil inspired Texas twang) How's that werkin' fer ya now Craig?

Have you ever noticed how easy it is for someone who has no debts (because they live in someone else's house rent free and have everything bought for them) to talk about what's best for everyone else?

and I didn't have an ulterior motive for asking.. just wanted to understand your mind friend.

I don't think this choice is necessarily about smart people/dumb mistake. It seemed like a no-brainer when given the promise of greater future rewards and limitless prosperity. The dumb part enters in when people continued to believe the theology long past the point of receiving any "return on investment."

So did that make you well informed or a busy-body?

Stark and Bainbridge started with 7 axioms: A1 Human perception and action take place through time, from the past into the future. A2 Humans seek what they perceive to be rewards and avoid what they believe to be costs. A3 Rewards vary in kind, value, and generality. A4 Human action is directed by a complex but finite information-processing system [i.e. the mind] that functions to identity problems and identify solutions to them. A5 Some desired rewards are limited in supply, including some that simply do not exist. A6 Most rewards sought by humans are destroyed when they are used. A7 Individual and social attributes which determine power are unequally distributed among persons and groups in any society. So how this relates to the decision to "join" TWI as opposed to other organizations? 1. For most of us the class cost money. The main idea was that while we would pay x amount of dollars, we would quickly recoup the investment through what was learned. (A2)(A3) 2. Manifestations, positive experiences, the tithe, and abundant sharing were "proof" that we were operating what we learned correctly. 3. Levels of involvement would also translate into levels of rewards; now and in the Kingdom. 4. There would be a system of like-minded adherents to keep one focused on the rewards. This is just the tip of the iceberg of why it was "rational" to belong to such an organization. Here's a link to one of the theorists: http://mysite.verizon.net/wsbainbridge/dl/sacal.htm

The answer is probably not bigger, but similar. Through some serious missteps in the 90s through 2006 they lost many of the TWI people who wanted a similar experience without the crazy. The outreach is very much entrenched in TWI methods (a "class"), and since there is an internet, the element of surprise is gone. JAL, in particular, sees STF as being a haven for people who have left TWI, so the entire concept of a seeker type outreach is simply not there. I sincerely doubt if there are more than 5000 on the mailing/email list as the list was only slightly higher than that after the big exodus from twi in 1987, and numbers had decreased, not increased (at least through 2004). I doubt if the "partnership" program exceeds 600 members. One thing you can be sure of is unless it's something to boast about, you're not going to get any exact numbers from them. My information is only accurate through 2004.

I'm not sure money is an issue. He's probably well aware of the finances. Maybe he's looking for a public apology from JAL and JB, since JB is most likely the one who leaked the documents to CC. Growth? I doubt it. People at the top have been hit hard with personal issues. It is also hard to grow when you can't delegate, don't trust, and have a paranoia streak. But other than that, I'm sure everything is peachy.

somehow, I think STIFFI *members* don't quite have the deep pockets twi would have.. like *they* say.. if *prophecies* fail, call the lawyers..

One of the lawsuits appears to still be active. The other one is not active. What I can't figure out is why the lawsuits were filed in Hamilton County and not in Marion County.

It appears the lawsuit against Dan Gallagher has been withdrawn.