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Much of this parallels what happened in The Way. Substitute MOG for "chosen one". Substitute Motorcoach for Alamo's "special" bedroom arrangement. Substitute Harley's for"ponies in the backyard". Substitute babes in the word for "baby Christians". Note that followers were expected to live on minimal subsistence while the leader lived like a king. Note that they had their own special language and were expected to maintain an attitude of submission. And so on. 1.Holding people against their will Most of this was of a psychological nature. When you are stuck in the middle of nowhere with no money or transportation, it can feel like you are being held. Add that to the "hedge of protection" concept that basically states you can never really leave "the household" without leaving yourself open to an attack from the boogie man. And, as was pointed out, there is a documented incident on the front page of this very website, that details the house arrest, at gun point, of a former Way leader. (Through the fog) 2. Withholding food. Yes. In fellow laborers, we had a food co-op. If you didn't make your weekly payment, you had to sit at meals with the group but were not allowed to eat. It was not permitted for anyone to offer you part of their share or offer to make a payment on your behalf. (We found ways around this one.) 3. Beaten with boards I never personally witnessed anyone being physically beaten. Many of our posters who spent their childhood in The Way, though, have posted first hand accounts of severe corporal punishment for misbehavior and non-compliance. One poster has stated that she and her husband were admonished, by leadership, to discipline their child with a 2x4. Armed guards walked the various Way properties and functions. One poster here has stated it was part of his responsibility, as a HQ staffer, to maintain the evesdropping "bugs" in the BRC. So I would have to conclude that MANY similar things happened in The Way.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533871,00.html This is an AP story.

Holding people against their will. Withholding food as punishment. Beating people with boards.

B - are your wayfer folks willing to die so you can have your inheritance at a reasonably young age, providing they've set aside any money.

Why. . . . it is almost as if they have a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words. :) Could be. . . . concerning the idea of financial partnership. . . . . . . in their greed they could exploit one with false words. . . . just a thought.

The odd thing is that if what they have is so unbelievably wonderful as they tell you, you would think that they would want to share it with the rest of the world and correct our misperceptions instead of running and hiding, or just never coming out of the wood work in the first place. Isnt there something about "hiding your light under a bushel". I have sat with Bishops and Archbishops, Higher ups of various denominations and 95% of the ones that I have talked to are straightforward and honest even in regards to the obvious problems that they face. In other words even if I dont agree with them on certain matters at the least they deal with things in an honorable way as part of their 'witness', most of them I have genuine appreciation for....and although I would never use a phrase like "man of God" to describe anyone, some I admire and might consider it if I had no other words available to me. I really dont understand the "we have some great secret that you dont" mentality, or the John Lynn type driveby "buy my book" postings of a few years ago either. Christianity especially the organized kind is hard enough to get my head around under the best of circumstances let alone someone slamming me with "buy my stuff" "Bumper Sticker Christianity" replete with false bravado, secrecy, and an attitude does nothing for me, it holds about as much spiritual appeal as Billy Mays hawking OxyClean or Vince selling ShamWows (absolutely amazing!!! act now!! bring your credit card!!) on 3 AM TV. I'll give him a chance by fercryinoutloud how the heck does he expect to convince anyone of anything with his current stance. He seems like a good kid, Working all these hours I hope that he is saving up for either his years of therapy or his years of alcoholism when it finally dawns on him how they took advantage of him and his naivete. O---and have the damn courage to speak up Saint Vic Jr, Im talking to you, paint your own damn house you lazy weasel

Wow. What an answer.

I'm surprised, just because somebody stuck their head up out of that nasty old hole.. or whatever it is there.. just the wrong person. I prefer someone supposedly "in charge".. and I'd be polite, as long as I wasn't handed a big line of bull sheet..

That's scary.

If I run into an ex-wayfer, it's usually deliberate. I have a number of friends who used to be in TWI, but I didn't hang with them then. I don't hang with them now because of past affiliation. I hang with them because I like them.

My tendency would be to frame it a bit differently. I don't know if you read and listened to my spiel on "compensators" but there are rational and logical reasons for becoming involved in a cult or other highly legalistic church organizations, which has to do with the promise of greater rewards. The "problem" is that you are still deeply ashamed of your choices. I have done some things that I'm not particularly proud of, and while I have been shaped by those choices, I am not defined by those choices. Furthermore, I don't let someone else define me by my choices. When people do to me what your friend did, I actually enjoy telling them that it's me they're talking about. They are usually horrified. I know I am when I do it. Once someone commented about my pretty living room and I said it was my "Jehovah's Witness room." She told me she was a Jehovah's Witness. We had a good laugh over it, after I pulled my foot from my mouth. The truth is that you were able to turn away and move in a different direction. A lot of people can't say that.

I don't think being a little ticked off is a bad thing. It's being consumed by being ticked off which is the bad thing.

And then, of course, there's always that distinct possibility that all religions, no matter the brand, are Bullchit (a VERY distinct possibility if you ask me). And all your pious, belligerent pontificating is for nought anyway. Just why is it that The Bible MUST be the fount of all Truth anyway? What evidence do we have that shows Judeo-Christianity to have any more credibility than any other garden-variety superstition? One thing the Bible IS good for, I'd admit, is promoting blind bigotry and prejudice - as evidenced by your posts. Even that gets boring after a short while though...

Proverbs 24:10 is appropriate here..

Argh. What difference does it make? The guy died possessed of a devil spirit (according to his own theology) and finally got outed for being a first class dirt-bag. Whether he meets with his eternal fate after the dirt nap of his theology or if he's already in the thick of it (if he was wrong about his theology), I'm sure he's with that group Jesus said would prefer they had never known him.

hmmm

It must be a shock coming here after the experience of TWI. One of TWI's most highly held values - like-mindedness - is nearly absent here, along with it's close ally - doing away with negativity. You are free to be yourself here, but you might have to support what you say with logic, and not someone battering you with scripture pulled out of context. I think I was here early on maybe posting under something closer to my real name. I arrived back here in 2007 after a splinter group that I was involved with for years, suffered yet another fracture, and I was asked to vouch for someone's character, which is nothing short of ironic given the circumstances over my departure. I had been completely away from anyone who had been involved with TWI or its offshoots for about 2 years and was hap hap happy to be gone. Five years ago I would have spent most of my time in the doctrinal area. Now I don't care. I stick around for entertainment purposes only.

I really thought about sending a copy of that to one of my former english professors, and see what he had to say about it, but I didn't want to see him have a heart attack.. "death by composition"..

I think one would normally have a trusted, honest individual review something like that before publishing it. Was there even any kind of review here? Maybe he's *above* that.. not how he thinks *god* breathes or something..

Actually, he's gotten worse. His earlier stuff at least scores "good" in a couple of areas.

hmm. "Now, due to Dick and Jane's adherence to the present truth and one true household, miracle self-flushing potties are sprouting up in ordinary places, like malls, shopping centers, and gas stations.."

I thought using the word just all the time was just weird at first. I just thought the prayers sounded robotic that I made a point to just not use the word. Then I just never got called on again to just pray out loud. Is that just full of it or what?

Tagalong - The main difference between extremist Islamics and TWI is that TWI has never gotten past being a wannabe.

maybe you could define your terms.. what do you mean "edification"? "truth" even as you define it may not be technically "edifying"..

I think at the time the times were good, either because you were happy, or because you'd better be happy. Now that people have had the time to look back (more or less objectively) the perception of the times have changed. I don't recall people whining about their awful cars, or lack of funds, or terrible living conditions. Things were what they were and besides whining only reminded a person of his/her lack of believing. I think it's difficult to reconcile the terrible cost that many paid. For me it helps to remember that most were trying to do nothing more than to be right with God the best way they knew how. Some people choose to cloud every memory with the idea that someone knew most of them were being deceived all along. I choose not to give anyone that much power over my memories. I think it's important to remember than everyone here is free to think, remember, and believe any way they want, which is a lot better than where we came from.

I'm not sure where the balls come in on that. Leaving because someone made you? How many years did it take some of you to figure out that TWI did you a favor when it told you to leave? The balls part occurred when someone had the good sense to leave, preferably before plunking down money to take a class. But I really have to admire the guy who refused - yes refused to SIT at the 13th session of the PFAL class I went through. Now that took balls.

You got that right.

Interesting. In *this* world, your post is construed as an "outburst" because it is in all caps. The point I'm trying to make is that it doesn't matter what you said, it might matter how it is perceived. The other thing with sociopaths (and I believe that any unrepentant "leader", current or former, of TWI is a sociopath) is that they count on people conforming to social norms and not confronting the bad behavior. Any attempt to confront will cause them to claim that any criticism (or whatever you want to call it) on your part is worse, because by golly, you should know better.

Which he didn't. This was yet another example of him confusing the relatively simple. Do any of you feel like you have a greater understanding of scripture because you know that flatbread resembles flat stones and that your father wouldn't give you a stone if he knew you wanted bread? Seriously. Once I had actually traveled to the middle east, it was very obvious the guy had no idea what he was talking about when it came to using "orientalisms" to explain biblical context. A humanities class provides more insight. Once I started studying religion in general and early Christianity in particular, it was glaring what the guy either didn't know, didn't understand, or simply ignored. I don't know. What I do know is that once I took an academic approach, it was really apparent that he was out there.

I think one has to avoid confusing the comfort of familiarity with being real (authentic).

There were no "good" times. There were a few good people, but even my first visit - a branch meeting - was not what I would call "good". Overwhelming - yes. I was told it would cost at least a dollar to give to see the band Good Seed. Now I had so much money that I had to put it in a baggie - because pennies were all I had. Fortunately all that was accepted was cash, so it was good that all I had was some change. Then my new best friend shoved a commitment down my throat, telling me I could back away, but all I got was more pressure when I did try to back away. I had a bad taste in my mouth from the very beginning. I'm not sorry it happened. I met a great guy and we've been married over 29 years. I feel terrible that so many people swallowed the whole thing, only to find out it was a con job from the get-go. There were enough things that made me uneasy that I couldn't shake off that I just didn't get into it that deep, much less drag friends and family into it.

A discussion about this recently caused me to tell my husband how convenient it was that Adam's "punishment" for his sin was to be made head over the woman. It made no sense at all for a "just" god to do that. I think someone made it up.

I whole-heartedly agree.. I think there are at least a half a dozen good reasons the creator gave women a brain.. and a few human instincts..

I didn't (and still don't) think that any organization is perfect. TWI had this thing for doublespeak. It talked about legalism and not being that way, but it was very legalistic. It talked about how bad private interpretation was, yet practiced it. It talked about household and family, yet had no qualms about driving wedges in households and families. It talked of people having "gifts," yet were highly selective in allowing people to use those gifts. If one didn't get all wrapped up in the hoopla, then one could see this and respond accordingly. It is hard to go against the flow. It is even harder in a group with TWI's dynamic. But it could be done. It was hard to be authentic because authentic people have bad days. Negative was not tolerated, so if someone asked you how you were (the few who cared) it was nearly impossible to be honest about it if you were having a bad day. The kicker was when you were having a bad day and then getting blamed for something that was so obviously out of your control. It took real strength of personal conviction to confront that kind of thinking. The first time that happened to me in a big way was the turning point for me. It ended up that these people were absolutely terrified to cross TWI because they couldn't imagine what was in store for them if they did, if TWI was actually providing them with a "hedge of protection" when the reality was that TWI's positions on certain things was placing them in harm's way. I remember one mother refusing to put her children in child restraints because to do so would interfere in the "hedge of protection," yet she didn't see the irony in monitoring their food, their social interactions, or not letting them play in the front yard which faced a busy street. When I pointed out the inconsistencies in her thinking, I think she did finally get it - maybe - I don't know. But I didn't keep my mouth shut.

I guess that's where I differed from the pack. Rather than stand there and scream in my head about the lunacy while keeping a stiff smile on my face, my tendency would be to find some way to deal with it so that I wouldn't have to have all the pent up crap. The "untouchables" had an air of "don't mess with me" and really nothing more. It turned out to be very beneficial to develop a don't mess with me attitude. I don't know if I could have kept that had I entered the corp, but I realized WC wasn't for me. If someone stands there and makes unreasonable demands and you stand there and say nothing, whose fault is that?

Still looking for a copy!!!!!!

Bullsh!t. Don't you think the room being set up would serve as the memory jog? They simply didn't want to put it back. When labor is cheap (as in free) and easy to come by (as in you racing your butt across town to see what was wrong) it's not hard to take advantage of such devotion. In fact, it's a waste to not milk it for all its worth.

Apparently I was never around when the string and tape measure came out. I never heard of chair stringing until I came here. If I had seen it, I probably would have had to stifle a few giggles, as people who need that sort of thing to line things up probably don't have a good eye for that kind of thing. Anyone who does have that kind of eye needs to be using that gift on something more important than chair alignment. Perhaps it was all the focus on the trivial that kept people from seeing the big picture.

So, essentially what started out as someone's bright idea for a particular situation became a general rule of thumb for every situation? It must be tied in with that mathematical precision thing.

I know. There were times when I emotionally wanted to do what some of you were doing - it seemed like such a good way to serve the Lord. Then I looked at the reality - people "equipped" by the organization to do little more than manual labor. People living little more beyond a hand-to-mouth existence due to commitments to the organization. People giving up good jobs and decent lifestyles in order to serve the organization. Honestly, I was amazed at how well people washed windows and emptied port-a-potties, but to do it for a living? I simply wasn't ready to give my life up for that, and fortunately my husband didn't want to do any more than what we were doing. At the time I felt like I didn't measure up and joked about where I would spend eternity in comparison to those who had truly given up all they had.

I don't care why it was pulled. A couple of people downloaded it and I was asking if there was some way of getting the video.

MG ignored my friend request on Facebook. I guess I'm totally out of the loop now. :(

A2 Humans seek what they perceive to be rewards and avoid what they believe to be costs. A3 Rewards vary in kind, value, and generality. A5 Some desired rewards are limited in supply, including some that simply do not exist. At the beginning, taking the PFAL class (supposedly) provides great rewards at relatively low cost. You get all this knowledge for the low, low, price of $x. Theoretically, one should be able to take that knowledge and put it to use - BUT - it's really not all that easy unless you are attending twig 3x per week and abundant sharing. If you are attending 3x a week and abundant sharing, you will become a member of the household. Now I used to joke that while some of my fellow wayfers would be sitting in the kitchen with Jesus, my place in paradise would probably be in the outhouse since my involvement was minimal. Your place in the household was in direct proportion to what you were doing in this life to "move the word." The gotcha is that one never really knew what "enough" was. I would wager that every last one of you who went into some sort of TWI "continuing education" or "service" did so with the "promise" of greater future rewards and more abundant current prosperity, which TWI promised would happen if you applied the advanced "keys" correctly. Moving "the word" in TWI fashion and intensity was the ticket, but there was always that sense of it never being enough to ensure the reward. Even in the face of glaring contradictory "senses" information, people were very sure that doing all these things was going to provide them with those elusive rewards and those unseen rewards, so they kept on doing it. One of the ways that was done was through minimalizing the effect of "senses" knowledge and capitalizing on information received through the "spiritual realm," which no one wanted to admit they weren't getting. Then you had to worry about which "spiritual realm" you were partaking in. Since no one really knew the difference, we were to be dependent on those who did. Only those who had risen in the ranks through the giving of money and time (and time devoted to learning the keys) were thought to be able to accurately discern, thereby providing a level of mediation between this world and the spiritual world. People wanted to accurately discern and perhaps mediate themselves, so they continued in this quest by giving more time and more money, thereby earning their way to that position. The only person who wasn't tied into this system of rewards was the founder and his immediate posse. He set himself up as this all-knowing guy and got a fair amount of people convinced that he was the one with all the information necessary to get the special rewards that weren't available to the mainstream Christian. So, while many things that happened in TWI assaulted your senses world sensibilities, the notion that all this was operating in the spiritual realm beyond your understanding seemed rational in the TWI setting.

Honestly, why do any of you give them any level of power over your life? What difference does it make what they say or think? Really? Do you not get that it's this caring about what others think that caused more than a few of you to do things that you aren't particularly proud of? If you really don't like it, put them on your ignore list.

A look at "Christmas Past."

My understanding from talking to MG was that they were in mediation.

I don't know if it's so much about whether he doesn't have a case.. maybe it's more a matter of whether any potential reward will actually be "collectable".. What I wonder.. are these guys still at each other's throats? What they need.. is a third party unaffected by their particular brand of nuttiness to sit as an arbitrator.. maybe it's too late for that.. who knows.. for a small handful of pecans, I'd consider..

Anybody know if the lawsuits still going? Or did it just kinda go "fizz"..?

I wonder, did M. and K. G. have a lawyer file this with the court, or is this a "do it yourself" kind of litigation?