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Hi James French, In case you misread my Grease Spot name – it is T-Bone NOT T-BONER …if you deliberately misspelled it in order to distort my name for the purpose of insulting or ridiculing me then I recommend you review Grease Spot’s Purpose, Mission and Rules here . Furthermore, I find it odd and inappropriate that you say I paint you “WITH A BROAD BRUSH LIKE VPW OR LUCIFER CON MARTINDALE!” when in your earlier posts you describe wierwille in very general and inflammatory terms (“loaded with demons”) and so to with “Lucifer Con Martindale” – geez Louise “Lucifer” ? Come on, man! Painting with a broad brush means without mentioning evidence, specific details and without paying attention to individual variations. As a matter of fact, the content of my VERY FIRST POST on this thread provided alternate criterion for judging cult-leaders -- by listing some biblical and psychological criterion for determining the level of demonic influence – here The more you go on about your powers of discernment the less I believe in your ability to judge well. As much as I’ve criticized wierwille and martindale I’d never go so far as to say they’re loaded with demons or born of the wrong seed. As I’ve mentioned previously wierwille’s teaching on wrong seed is erroneous, illogical and there is no biblical support for it. Which leaves your “loaded with demons” accusation as a shot in the dark – which as far as I’m concerned is mere speculation…also bad form for you to fly off the handle like that -- – your protesting so much is a tip off you didn’t anticipate that anyone would balk at your claim…FYI…when someone objects so fervently to something – I tend to think the opposite may be true…sorry but some of what you said comes across as insincere overacting…maybe if we both dial back the rhetoric and animosity by asking for more clarification we might get somewhere – wherever that “somewhere” is. what I think the “spiritual status” of wierwille and martindale MIGHT have been when I was involved in TWI and interacted with them – leans toward the first three levels of demonic influence from Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology and Counseling that I referenced in my first post – there was enough circumstantial and direct evidence as well as symptoms to indicate those first three levels of demonic influence MAY have been the cause. I am not aware of any circumstantial or direct evidence or symptoms that would indicate either cult-leader had the fourth or most direct level of demonic influence - which is demonic possession. In my opinion that’s a pretty harsh accusation to make. ~ ~ ~ ~ I don’t feel compelled nor do I see the need to get in a pi$$ing contest with you. You can toot your own horn all you want – it’s doubtful if all that hype will make many ex-TWI folks buy into regurgitated wierwille ideology…I mean it’s the same old song and dance and hissy fits that wierwille pulled to manipulate people to disregard their cognitive skills and intuition…You can go on if you want to here – but let’s be clear – as I said before – I will call out the BS – I’m not trashing YOU – I’m merely criticizing a dubious idea you forwarded…it's like you're trying to sell us something...too much hard sell...if you can’t take the heat – you may want to stay out of the kitchen. ~ ~ ~ ~ If you would have given more details on how you were backing down on your support and involvement with TWI because of your discernment – your narrative may have come across as more genuine and a natural development over those 8 years…keep in mind Grease Spot Café is somewhat like a halfway house cyberplace for helping former followers of a harmful and controlling cult adjust to life in a general society…To be honest – I think if you would have started this thread with the your 2nd point - LCM Angry at a Gay believer anonymously requesting prayer at the Business/Professions Conference it probably would have resonated with more folks – because divisive, berating and persecuting incidents like that is something many of us are very familiar with… …and from that as well as all the other acts of caring and compassion that you have mentioned in your recent posts leads me to think you are a good person – and that’s unlike the standard TWI-response of blaming the victim for their lack of believing…as I said before I’m not going to get into a pi$$ing contest with you…if you actually read my previous posts to Mark about manifestations - it should be obvious I believe what the Bible says about the manifestations and about other spiritual abilities – I just don’t believe in them in the way wierwille taught them… …feel free to harp on me about faking SIT…it’s already been discussed how the power of self-deception held sway in TWI…and it’s a tough syndrome to deal with…if you’re an expert on SIT – why don’t you start a thread on SIT… I don’t mind playing the devil’s advocate – we’ve had some good discussions on that…maybe this time around we can get some of you SIT fans to submit a recording of your speaking in tongues to a linguistic expert for analysis. ~ ~ ~ ~ …one thing that always frustrated me in TWI – was when people did NOT receive some miracle…healing…deliverance from whatever - and the cult-leader or some hot dog sycophant supposedly “ministering” to them doesn’t do squat! And these folks get dropped like a hot potato…like the incident I gave earlier of the lady with the misshapen foot…yeah - people can talk a tough game – I have never seen wierwille, martindale or any other top leadership “operate” the revelation or power manifestations…their ideology promises so much but delivers so little… …and you know who gets left holding the bag? People like me – who care about the believers I fellowship with – so we comfort and encourage them to hang in there anyway…besides the typical disappointments, sadness, and displeasure caused by the nonfulfillment of the hopes and expectations people had from the promises of PFAL – I WAS ALSO THERE FOR THE REALLY TOUGH SITUATIONS – to comfort, console, pray, minister, counsel…with believers dying of cancer or suffering from some other illness or tragic accident…I’ve done fund-raisers, funeral services and memorials – not just because it came with the territory of my responsibilities but more importantly it’s what shepherds do when reality deals some tough blows to the flock - like illness, hardship, tragedy and death…and I was there for the death, sickness, hardships and tragedies of relatives, friends and work associates who had nothing to do with TWI – because I’m a human being too – and I’m still there for folks in tough situations – regardless of belief systems…I have this running joke with several former co-workers “we’ve got to stop meeting like this” at funerals where someone in their family has passed away. …it’s pointless to try and guilt me into thinking you’re so spiritual because somebody “revived” and you’re wanting to hear if I can top that. Well great, I’m happy for you and that person and everyone related to that incident…how are you when there’s no positive outcome? How are you when situations drag on and on indefinitely, and they reach out for help because this isn’t supposed to be happening to a true believer. ~ ~ ~ ~ Your ALL CAPS and foul-mouth-ish subtleties are uncalled for. Did it ever occur to you that this isn’t TWI-ville 2.0 and some folks are going to notice inconsistencies in your narrative – like I did with you detecting loads of demons in THE cult-leader but doing nothing about it? Like I said you should have just gone with the martindale homo-purge thing – now your narrative there seems genuine – you called headquarters, you were concerned you took action. That kind of stuff is great – relatable. It doesn’t matter if one believes in the 9 manifestations like you do or not…it doesn’t matter what one’s position is on homosexuality…your incident was great because it clearly showed the hypocrisy and authoritarianism of a supposedly Christian leader. ~ ~ ~ ~ I’ll try to be less of an a$$hole to you…but you don’t have to feel like you should reciprocate – you can still call me T-BONER if that turns you on and you can still TALK TO ME IN ALL CAPS…I’ve got a thick-skin anyway – comes from years of spiritual abuse by pontificating, berating harmful and controlling cult-leaders…so I’ll try not to respond in kind. …and just so you know – I really enjoy the debates and critical analysis on Grease Spot – I don’t take it personal and I don’t make it personal. Anyway…that’s all I’ve got for now…hope you have a good evening…

Meh. After 45 years or so, it's more like watching reruns of an old B-movie. You know the scenes are supposed to be scary but you laugh at them anyway. Like that time you were a kid and tried to do some insane bicycle trick that ended up costing you a bunch of stitches or a broken bone. Thinking about it just makes you chuckle about how naiive you must have been. Thanks for your concern, though.

I can go along with you on this. I was at a fellowship (long past my TWI days, but it was reformed ex-Wayfers who'd walked away from TWI doctrines). This was 20 years ago, I don't remember all the details. An older man attended. He had walked with sticks or crutches or some such (not in a wheelchair) for many years - the fellowship leader took him quietly aside into the kitchen with 1 or 2 other witnesses, prayed with him and held his hands as he took his first steps. A great shout of joy alerted all the rest of us to something amazing. Here was this man, walking, unaided, stumbling about in the kitchen. He then went outside (accompanied for safety by a couple of people) and spent an hour or more just walking around the little quiet road in which this fellowship took place, and getting better and better at balance, and walking. He was crying with joy. I don't know about afterwards, as I didn't go there often. I saw this. It happened. Who got the glory? God. The leader backed off and claimed no credit at all.