Leaderboard

He vanished into a cloud. Or behind it. We think it was a cloud. Or fog. Maybe. https://bigthink.com/13-8/limits-of-knowledge-big-bang-origin-life/

I wonder if Mike got mixed up with his responses and who he was replying to…But it doesn’t matter…what’s really important is that in the mix-up Mike may have inadvertently revealed his motivation…the multi-quotes above are in sequential order – and I will make a few comments about each one to show Grease Spotters how I got to this discovery…My persistence in doing stuff like this is for the benefit of those still in The Way International…I don’t think Mike’s habit of denial is representative of many folks in TWI. At least I hope not – it probably becomes more prevalent the longer folks stay involved with a cult that encourages cognitive distortions . Denial is a defense mechanism in which an individual refuses to recognize or acknowledge objective facts or experiences. It’s an unconscious process that serves to protect the person from discomfort or anxiety from: Denial | Psychology Today . See also: Denial (Freud) - Wikipedia 50 Common Cognitive Distortions | Psychology Today ~ ~ ~ ~ The road to discovery starts here( numbers in red correspond to above quoted posts) 1.Before I quote my post of January 25, 2023 at 1:25 AM, I want to give you some sense of what drove me to start questioning everything about wierwille. My cognitive skills were reawakened in the aftermath of Chris G reading the Passing of the Patriarch (which, I guess, was supposed to be something like wierwille’s last will and testament to the way corps ) one night while I was in residence…It was like so many red flags that were heavily blanketed by the dust of denial were suddenly uncovered by tornadic storms of long forgotten doubts, questions and bad personal experiences in TWI…I began an intense review and reevaluation of wierwille’s teachings – in PFAL and beyond! I even looked into his credentials and things he claimed he accomplished – like “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses” . That is why In early June of 1987, I contacted The Moody Correspondence School Department of the Moody Bible Institute and spoke with Vivian Ruby in the Registrar’s Office. I was stunned to find out they had no record of wierwille completing a course with them. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to believe it. I had to have something more tangible than a person’s voice over the phone telling me that in effect wierwille lied about something in his education. I asked her to mail me that information in a letter with Moody Correspondence School’s official letterhead…Needless to say, my investigation really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand – but there was also an ominous feeling…dread...would I find out the foundation of my faith was built upon the shifting sands of a false teacher? … T-Bone quote ~ ~ ~ ~ 2. On January 25th 2023 9:16 AM Mike quotes this portion of my post “Needless to say, my investigation really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand – but there was also an ominous feeling…dread...would I find out the foundation of my faith was built upon the shifting sands of a false teacher?” T-Bone quote And then Mike says this: That is a very telling phrase: "...the foundation of my faith was built upon..." I am so sorry to see so many built their faith on what they thought was a traditional holy man who doubled as a scholar. In the 1970s I was too suspicious of holy men and of academics to have built my faith on VPW. He was obviously a ringer in my mind back then, but I didn't know how much. I am glad I didn't. I just focused on USING the keys I was taught to open up the Bible and especially Paul's Epistles to my mind so that I could use them to benefit my live and others. The ministry was merely a vehicle to help this process in my mind. My suspicions and respects toward VPW went up and down over the decades. But my understanding of the Bible has just increased and increased over the years, due to the start I got in PFAL. I am so glad I built my faith on the Bible, and still do.”…Mike quote Unless you are familiar with Mike’s unsolicited ‘tenure’ of 20 years at Grease Spot Café – you probably won’t see how laughable Mike’s hypocrisy is – as revealed in this typical response above. Mike has adopted wierwille’s position on a lot of stuff related to the Bible – but at this stage of his game Mike has mutated so much of wierwille’s doctrine that I bet wierwille himself probably wouldn’t recognize it…To be clear – Mike has NOT built his faith on the Bible – rather he has complete confidence in what wierwille said about the Bible…and it’s usually after I open up and make myself vulnerable – that Mike likes to brag about his 'retroactive cognitive skills' to show how he was smarter than me and was not duped like I was – Mike said In the 1970s I was too suspicious of holy men and of academics to have built my faith on VPW. He was obviously a ringer in my mind back then, but I didn't know how much. I am glad I didn't. I just focused on USING the keys I was taught to open up the Bible Mike quote ~ ~ ~ ~ 3.On January 25th 2023 8:04 PM Mike said this in responding to OldSkool: Now, let’s get up front about something. No matter what I write as a summary of handling that list, and no matter what amount of text I devote to each scripture, you will find SOMETHING(s) about it to totally reject it, and even if lose the argument with me, you’ll find another set of arguments to maintain your position. Isn’t that so? In other words you don’t have ANY odd feeling right now like you did with the Moody Bible people, right? You aren’t thinking, “What am I going to do if Mike unravels my anti-idol that I’ve built my religious service faith on protecting people from?” I just want you to know that I know that. And of course, you will (and have often) accuse me of the exact same; isn’t that right? You were sure you were right when you slaved for TWI, but now your are sure you are right, again. But THIS time you are really right….Mike quote This one really threw me. Why did Mike say you don’t have ANY odd feeling right now like you did with the Moody Bible people to OldSkool? I was the one who said I had an ominous feeling…dread...that I would I find I had based my confidence on the lies of a false teacher…Perhaps Mike got mixed up in his responses. ~ ~ ~ ~ What have we learned here? I believe Mike’s habit of denial, obfuscating the evidence, ignoring doctrinal issues are some of the main reasons why folks are still trapped in The Way International. A lot of Mike’s shtick is a caricature of the cult-mindset fostered in TWI. What it does is it gets people to disengage their cognitive skills. ~ ~ ~ ~ To all those still involved in The Way International and any of its offshoots, as a believer in our risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I beg you in His name to check out threads that expose TWI for what it is – a whitewashed mausoleum of a dead cult-leader. Check out this list of dubious doctrines taught in the 1967 PFAL class – that I made on another thread – and this is by no means complete. My challenge to all was to ask if all these questionable dogmas are still taught in the new PFAL Today. I have yet to get a definitive answer – you can see the list here > at least 28 problematic doctrines in PFAL and check out these other threads: The Wierwille Legacy: Who Will Write The Book? wierwille’s pathological ministry wierwille wanted to control the money The Way: Living in Wonderland The Secret Agenda Society TWI the pseudo-Christian cult TWI servitude Evidence: Letters VPW wrote to the Way Corps The Original Letter Sent to TWI by top leaders leaving ~ ~ ~ ~ In analyzing wierwille’s dubious phrase the Word takes the place of the Absent Christ, I’ve thought about John 5:39 a few times: Amplified Bible You search and keep on searching and examining the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and yet it is those [very Scriptures] that testify about Me…John 5:39 In a manner of speaking wierwille had me doing something similar. Without realizing it, I believed wierwille’s teaching on the Bible was transparent and was just the same as me reading the Bible for myself. I was not aware I had wierwille’s filter in my thought process. And not only that, I had this vague notion that “The Word” as taught by wierwille was the best and only substitute for a dynamic relationship with Jesus Christ. That’s all for now, folks

I try to teach my son how (H-O-W) to find out. I try to teach him how (H-O-W) to research. (He knows the accurate meaning of that word.) How to question, inquire, test, doubt. How to always follow the evidence wherever it might lead - especially evidence presented after he thinks he knows. I try to teach him that dogma is rarely good. I try to teach him to pay attention to his own confirmation bias and to be aware of biases held by others. I try to teach him the more he embraces the not knowing, the more he can know. HOWEVER,

Bolshevik asked you three questions...

Well, let's look at Jesus Christ from scripture and try to gain a more comprehensive viewpoint of how he interacts with his Church. My comments are in blue...hopefully that helps with readibility. First we will establish that we ARE to have fellowship with God's son Jesus Christ. The way international forbids their followers from interacting with Jesus Christ, yet scripture says: 1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. Second, let's handle the obvious: Jesus Christ is not present on earth in a flesh and blood body as recorded in the gospels. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God as recorded in the book of Acts. Please note in the Book of Acts and in the Church epistles as well as the Gospels when the word Lord is used it usually refers to Jesus Christ with some exceptions where the old Testament is quoted, etc. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ( Notice Jesus says I will send him unto you) Acts 1:8,9 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. --> Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesnt do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplsished works. Half truths at best. Now let's see how Jesus Christ himself interacted with his Church in the book of Acts, Epistles, etc. I wont comment much because scripture is quite obvious, as is the nature of most scripture. First off, though, a quick trip to the gospels to establish something important. John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand --> God has literally given all things into Christs hands...when will Jesus Christ give it all back? 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. --> So God has given all things into Christs hands and Jesus Christ will subdue all things under his feet and give it all back to God that God may be all in all! --> Jesus said in John 16:7 that he (Jesus) would send the comforter. In the book of Acts that prophecy is fullfilled: Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. --> Literally Jesus received of the Father the gift of holy spirit and poured it out on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2. Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” --> Jesus Christ adds to the Church, Jesus Christ is in charge of people being born again and it is the Lord that adds to his body. Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, --> Jesus Christ appears to Ananias in a vision. He also appeared to Saul. Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. --> Jesus Christ taught Paul by Revelation the content of the epistles he authored. This pattern holds true all throughout the new Testamend. I am being brief on purpose. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Once I chucked the absent Christ heresay and actually started reading what the Bible actually says it was very revealing. Christ is very active in interactin with his Church. He has never been absent. He has been changed into a life giving spirit and is no longer flesh and blood: Something wierwille never could come to grips with. ------------------------------------------ Continuing onwards: 1/25 There are those that say (I used to be one of "those") that fellowshipping with Jesus Christ dishonors God. Well, God is the one who elevated Jesus Christ to second in command, so to not respect the "pecking order" instituted by God what actually dishonors God. God honored Jesus Christ, clothed him in majesty, and set him over all things until all things are subdued under his feet. In turn Jesus Christ honors God by always doing the Fathers will. God and his Christ are inseperable in union and purpose. While I am showing verses that show Jesus Christ is active and not absent I also wanted to show a section where the Apostles prayed to God in regards to their stand for Jesus Christ, well, because God isnt absent either although he has highly elevated Jesus Christ. Note they call him Lord as he was called in the Old Testament and the distinction is clear: Acts 4:24-31 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: 25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? 26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. 29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. 31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. With the record of Stephen's stoning in Acts 7 we again see God and Jesus Christ working in tandem, yet Stephen says Lord Jesus receive my spirit, recognizing Jesus lordship while respecting and recognizing God's sovereignty. Acts 7:55-60 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. I also want to note there are numerous records in Acts showing Angels at Jesus command, actually something even wierwille acknowledged when he wasnt downplaying Jesus Lordship. If anyone is interested search "Angel of the Lord" to check it out. My point is Jesus Christ is directing the angels to give specific instruction to his Church. Jesus is the head of his Body and that Lordship is very active, not absent. Well, I couldn't skip Acts 9 so here those records are, once again showing Jesus himself interacting with his Church. Its notable that Saul's companions also heard a voice yet saw no man and Saul himself saw no man either -- makes sense since he was blinded but the emphasis is clear. This is an audible voice from Jesus Christ to flesh and blood beings with no spirit connection so once again disproving wierwille's great principle. Acts 9:3-8 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. Now with Ananias Acts 9:10-17 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, 12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. Notice how Ananias conversed with the Lord and he conversed back in the vision given him. Note the very personal nature between Ananias and the Lord Jesus and also note that Ananias himself stated that the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me. In order to say Christ is absent you have to dang near disqualify Jesus from his Lordship in order to do so. Acts 9:27 once again confirms that Saul/Paul actually talked to Jesus. Acts 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus. Something I want to point out here just to state the obvious. If wierwille was preaching the Word as it hadnt' been known since the first century then why didnt the disciples that Barnabas addressed correct him and tell him the Lord was absent? Because it was common place for them to interact with Christ - period. Back to the bullshonta great principle for a moment. If the great principle is true then how in the heck was an Angel, a spirit being, able to communicate with Cornelieus the Roman Centurion who had not been born again at the time of the vision? Acts 10:1-7 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. 5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: 6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do. 7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually; Now we will see Peter conversing with Jesus Christ in a vision as he was on the rooftop in prayer where Jesus appears and teaches him further so he will go minister to Cornelius and his household. Acts 10:9-16 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. If anyone would care to read Acts 11 you will notice that God and Jesus are working together as indicated by the language used in the conversations. Jesus Christs actions as head of the Body and as Lord of Lords and King of Kings glorify God and it's Christ in perfect unison with God carrying out God's will. So yes, God is very involved and is sovereign in his throne and authority, yet he has delegated active Lordship over all to Jesus Christ. I think it's intersting in Acts chapter 14, verse 3, that the wording indicates that it's Jesus Christ who granted signs and wonders to be done by the Banabus and Paul. So much for the manifestations of holy spirit operating solely as he the man wills. Acts 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands. Acts 16 has the vision of the Macedonian man appearing to Paul saying come help us. Paul stated it was the Lord calling them to preach the Word in Macedonia. Acts 16:9,10 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them. Acts 18 shows once again Jesus appearing to Paul in a vision. Acts 18:9-11 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: 10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city. 11And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. Heres some phenomenon as wierwille liked to say...I dont put much faith in the concept as defined by wierwille but here we have God doing special miracles by the hands of Paul. Acts 19:11-13 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: 12So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. 13Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

Yes. The second post on this page was very much on the Absent Christ. Plus I had a followup one mid page. When I am not defending my honor, or answering questions, I come up with the most on-topic posts, in my opinion.

Thank you. I appreciate that. If it is any consolation to you, I realize that I come across that way at times. I try my best to avoid it and/or fix it, but the misunderstandings grow faster than I can fix them.

There need not be a point ever made if the goal is attention.

Or you're so ineffective at presenting opposing propaganda, that we have to waste bandwidth correcting you. You're a legend in your own mind.

I really like the song Chockfull - it is inspiring, especially the chorus. It makes me think again of the quote I shared in my opening post. "However, there is also little doubt that in many of our churches today, certainly in Britain, scant attention is given to this cardinal doctrine and hope. It is there in our creeds; it is there in our Advent guidelines; it is there in our Bibles: but it is all too often missing from our sermons, our meetings for prayer and our daily lives.” Maybe a lack of enthusiasm or faith in the hope is because of not hearing enough or reading enough about it. Maybe it's finding a church that is alive because of their hope in Christ's coming to gather us together to meet him in the air. Maybe it's growing closer to Christ that makes his return more real. All I know for sure is that the importance of it for believers is a big deal in scripture.