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Much of this parallels what happened in The Way. Substitute MOG for "chosen one". Substitute Motorcoach for Alamo's "special" bedroom arrangement. Substitute Harley's for"ponies in the backyard". Substitute babes in the word for "baby Christians". Note that followers were expected to live on minimal subsistence while the leader lived like a king. Note that they had their own special language and were expected to maintain an attitude of submission. And so on. 1.Holding people against their will Most of this was of a psychological nature. When you are stuck in the middle of nowhere with no money or transportation, it can feel like you are being held. Add that to the "hedge of protection" concept that basically states you can never really leave "the household" without leaving yourself open to an attack from the boogie man. And, as was pointed out, there is a documented incident on the front page of this very website, that details the house arrest, at gun point, of a former Way leader. (Through the fog) 2. Withholding food. Yes. In fellow laborers, we had a food co-op. If you didn't make your weekly payment, you had to sit at meals with the group but were not allowed to eat. It was not permitted for anyone to offer you part of their share or offer to make a payment on your behalf. (We found ways around this one.) 3. Beaten with boards I never personally witnessed anyone being physically beaten. Many of our posters who spent their childhood in The Way, though, have posted first hand accounts of severe corporal punishment for misbehavior and non-compliance. One poster has stated that she and her husband were admonished, by leadership, to discipline their child with a 2x4. Armed guards walked the various Way properties and functions. One poster here has stated it was part of his responsibility, as a HQ staffer, to maintain the evesdropping "bugs" in the BRC. So I would have to conclude that MANY similar things happened in The Way.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533871,00.html This is an AP story.

Holding people against their will. Withholding food as punishment. Beating people with boards.

B - are your wayfer folks willing to die so you can have your inheritance at a reasonably young age, providing they've set aside any money.

By the time I arrived on the scene, VPW was already being referred to as the (not a) MOG and the MOGOTW. How did this designation come about? When and how did he transcend being a preacher? At the time I thought it leaned towards hyperbole, but a LOT of people in TWI seemed to think it was true.

Wow. What an answer.

I'm surprised, just because somebody stuck their head up out of that nasty old hole.. or whatever it is there.. just the wrong person. I prefer someone supposedly "in charge".. and I'd be polite, as long as I wasn't handed a big line of bull sheet..

I don't know what other choices to add. Let me know and I'll add them.

That's scary.

kinda like high school

If I run into an ex-wayfer, it's usually deliberate. I have a number of friends who used to be in TWI, but I didn't hang with them then. I don't hang with them now because of past affiliation. I hang with them because I like them.

Great insight, Chockfull

My tendency would be to frame it a bit differently. I don't know if you read and listened to my spiel on "compensators" but there are rational and logical reasons for becoming involved in a cult or other highly legalistic church organizations, which has to do with the promise of greater rewards. The "problem" is that you are still deeply ashamed of your choices. I have done some things that I'm not particularly proud of, and while I have been shaped by those choices, I am not defined by those choices. Furthermore, I don't let someone else define me by my choices. When people do to me what your friend did, I actually enjoy telling them that it's me they're talking about. They are usually horrified. I know I am when I do it. Once someone commented about my pretty living room and I said it was my "Jehovah's Witness room." She told me she was a Jehovah's Witness. We had a good laugh over it, after I pulled my foot from my mouth. The truth is that you were able to turn away and move in a different direction. A lot of people can't say that.

I don't think being a little ticked off is a bad thing. It's being consumed by being ticked off which is the bad thing.

Now what is it about this girl that makes you want to stay with her?

Cheranne, It might be because your issues were not brought on by TWI. The tendency to gravitate or be drawn to cults comes first. Very few come in with glowing stories of their childhood that spoke of great times in a church. People's level of involvement in church organization tends to reflect what they expect in return; either now or in the eternal life area.

Even as recently as a year ago I thought right doctrine was very important. Now I don't.

It must be a shock coming here after the experience of TWI. One of TWI's most highly held values - like-mindedness - is nearly absent here, along with it's close ally - doing away with negativity. You are free to be yourself here, but you might have to support what you say with logic, and not someone battering you with scripture pulled out of context. I think I was here early on maybe posting under something closer to my real name. I arrived back here in 2007 after a splinter group that I was involved with for years, suffered yet another fracture, and I was asked to vouch for someone's character, which is nothing short of ironic given the circumstances over my departure. I had been completely away from anyone who had been involved with TWI or its offshoots for about 2 years and was hap hap happy to be gone. Five years ago I would have spent most of my time in the doctrinal area. Now I don't care. I stick around for entertainment purposes only.

Are you saying that no one told you about TWI before you took the class? I was told, but I chose to ignore the warnings, given the source, my sister, who had a tendency to speak about things that she had no knowledge about with great authority.

I really thought about sending a copy of that to one of my former english professors, and see what he had to say about it, but I didn't want to see him have a heart attack.. "death by composition"..

I think one would normally have a trusted, honest individual review something like that before publishing it. Was there even any kind of review here? Maybe he's *above* that.. not how he thinks *god* breathes or something..

Actually, he's gotten worse. His earlier stuff at least scores "good" in a couple of areas.

hmm. "Now, due to Dick and Jane's adherence to the present truth and one true household, miracle self-flushing potties are sprouting up in ordinary places, like malls, shopping centers, and gas stations.."

I thought using the word just all the time was just weird at first. I just thought the prayers sounded robotic that I made a point to just not use the word. Then I just never got called on again to just pray out loud. Is that just full of it or what?

Tagalong - The main difference between extremist Islamics and TWI is that TWI has never gotten past being a wannabe.

And yet we were supposed to have a "quiver full" of children.

Exie, I think I can relate a bit to what you went through. I was never seduced by someone in TWI, but it did happen. An older authority figure. I believed that I would derive some benefit, so I went along. It made me sick at the time. It turned out really bad and things quickly went south. I nearly lost everything. I laid on the couch for a month in utter despair because of what this man had done to me and how I had let him do it. I was probably in anguish to some degree for another 10 years. Back then, those things that happened to you and I were a fact of life. No, those things should not have happened, but they did. Did I do anything intentionally that brought it on? Not really. I just happened to be a very attractive young woman with a lack of appropriate boundaries and a fair amount of need to be loved. Guys like VPW and the guy who came after me are able to hone in on us like a heat-seeking missile goes after a target. I try not to think back on that time because I can't change what happened. Nonetheless, this has had some fairly significant long-term effects that I am just now beginning to address, and we're talking nearly 30 years. I hope that you will be able to find peace.

Oh yeah, and the NASV, the Amplified, the Message - you name it. One of the reasons why the KJV is so much better and so much more accurate is that most, if not all, of VPW's doctrinal arguments fall apart if you look at another version. If you use the study materials, the interlinear, and the concordance that TWI uses, it is possible to come to the same conclusions as TWI. The reason why I say it's possible is that reading the KJV with a 20th century knowledge of words plays into some of TWI's more esoteric concepts. Once I sat down and read the KJV NT with a dictionary that provided the changes in word meaning over the years (which I was roundly criticized for doing) I began to understand the bible in a very different way than was taught by TWI. Unfortunately, most people don't know enough about the history of the KJV to know that it was "translated" from sources that are newer than have been used to create the NIV and some of the other versions out there. The greater "truth" is that our salvation is not based upon having a perfect understanding of God's Word. That is where TWI misses the mark completely.

I'm not sure where the balls come in on that. Leaving because someone made you? How many years did it take some of you to figure out that TWI did you a favor when it told you to leave? The balls part occurred when someone had the good sense to leave, preferably before plunking down money to take a class. But I really have to admire the guy who refused - yes refused to SIT at the 13th session of the PFAL class I went through. Now that took balls.

You got that right.

Interesting. In *this* world, your post is construed as an "outburst" because it is in all caps. The point I'm trying to make is that it doesn't matter what you said, it might matter how it is perceived. The other thing with sociopaths (and I believe that any unrepentant "leader", current or former, of TWI is a sociopath) is that they count on people conforming to social norms and not confronting the bad behavior. Any attempt to confront will cause them to claim that any criticism (or whatever you want to call it) on your part is worse, because by golly, you should know better.

I'm sure there are many, many decisions that were made that were just plain stupid. The one I remember the most was the decision to use betamax as the standard for video. I'm trying to remember when that decision was made, but I know it was after 1980 and close to the time the debate had tipped in VHS favor in terms of sales of machines and available videos on the market. This was my first clue that HQ was not necessarily listening to God, or paying much attention to anything else for that matter. Betamax was fine if all one wanted to do was watch TWI propaganda or the small smattering of very high priced videos that came about later due to the initial 60 minute limit on betamax tapes. But to expect us all to spend that amount of money on such a limited use piece of electronics on the basis that betamax was "the best" was just downright stupid (IMO). I'm sure there are other decisions. Care to share?

There were no "good" times. There were a few good people, but even my first visit - a branch meeting - was not what I would call "good". Overwhelming - yes. I was told it would cost at least a dollar to give to see the band Good Seed. Now I had so much money that I had to put it in a baggie - because pennies were all I had. Fortunately all that was accepted was cash, so it was good that all I had was some change. Then my new best friend shoved a commitment down my throat, telling me I could back away, but all I got was more pressure when I did try to back away. I had a bad taste in my mouth from the very beginning. I'm not sorry it happened. I met a great guy and we've been married over 29 years. I feel terrible that so many people swallowed the whole thing, only to find out it was a con job from the get-go. There were enough things that made me uneasy that I couldn't shake off that I just didn't get into it that deep, much less drag friends and family into it.

I really wonder where loy found these guys.. the limb guy would believe the moon was made of green cheese, at the loyster's assertion.. I still think they had a secret ceremony for induction into leadership, towards the middle of loy's reign.. where the inductees were required to swallow a prescribed quantity of turpentine, or huff the right kind of glue.. some of the ex-way ex-leadership around here were just lucky enough to be absent that day..

A discussion about this recently caused me to tell my husband how convenient it was that Adam's "punishment" for his sin was to be made head over the woman. It made no sense at all for a "just" god to do that. I think someone made it up.

I whole-heartedly agree.. I think there are at least a half a dozen good reasons the creator gave women a brain.. and a few human instincts..

I didn't (and still don't) think that any organization is perfect. TWI had this thing for doublespeak. It talked about legalism and not being that way, but it was very legalistic. It talked about how bad private interpretation was, yet practiced it. It talked about household and family, yet had no qualms about driving wedges in households and families. It talked of people having "gifts," yet were highly selective in allowing people to use those gifts. If one didn't get all wrapped up in the hoopla, then one could see this and respond accordingly. It is hard to go against the flow. It is even harder in a group with TWI's dynamic. But it could be done. It was hard to be authentic because authentic people have bad days. Negative was not tolerated, so if someone asked you how you were (the few who cared) it was nearly impossible to be honest about it if you were having a bad day. The kicker was when you were having a bad day and then getting blamed for something that was so obviously out of your control. It took real strength of personal conviction to confront that kind of thinking. The first time that happened to me in a big way was the turning point for me. It ended up that these people were absolutely terrified to cross TWI because they couldn't imagine what was in store for them if they did, if TWI was actually providing them with a "hedge of protection" when the reality was that TWI's positions on certain things was placing them in harm's way. I remember one mother refusing to put her children in child restraints because to do so would interfere in the "hedge of protection," yet she didn't see the irony in monitoring their food, their social interactions, or not letting them play in the front yard which faced a busy street. When I pointed out the inconsistencies in her thinking, I think she did finally get it - maybe - I don't know. But I didn't keep my mouth shut.

I guess that's where I differed from the pack. Rather than stand there and scream in my head about the lunacy while keeping a stiff smile on my face, my tendency would be to find some way to deal with it so that I wouldn't have to have all the pent up crap. The "untouchables" had an air of "don't mess with me" and really nothing more. It turned out to be very beneficial to develop a don't mess with me attitude. I don't know if I could have kept that had I entered the corp, but I realized WC wasn't for me. If someone stands there and makes unreasonable demands and you stand there and say nothing, whose fault is that?

I'd be suprised if they didn't try to sell it at auction.. *"slightly" used dairy tanker..* They could have billed it as a "Prevailing Word over da world double-duty dairy tanker.."

Still looking for a copy!!!!!!

Bullsh!t. Don't you think the room being set up would serve as the memory jog? They simply didn't want to put it back. When labor is cheap (as in free) and easy to come by (as in you racing your butt across town to see what was wrong) it's not hard to take advantage of such devotion. In fact, it's a waste to not milk it for all its worth.

So, essentially what started out as someone's bright idea for a particular situation became a general rule of thumb for every situation? It must be tied in with that mathematical precision thing.

Which begs the question: (mustering up my best Dr. Phil inspired Texas twang) How's that werkin' fer ya now Craig?

I know. There were times when I emotionally wanted to do what some of you were doing - it seemed like such a good way to serve the Lord. Then I looked at the reality - people "equipped" by the organization to do little more than manual labor. People living little more beyond a hand-to-mouth existence due to commitments to the organization. People giving up good jobs and decent lifestyles in order to serve the organization. Honestly, I was amazed at how well people washed windows and emptied port-a-potties, but to do it for a living? I simply wasn't ready to give my life up for that, and fortunately my husband didn't want to do any more than what we were doing. At the time I felt like I didn't measure up and joked about where I would spend eternity in comparison to those who had truly given up all they had.

I don't care why it was pulled. A couple of people downloaded it and I was asking if there was some way of getting the video.

I don't think this choice is necessarily about smart people/dumb mistake. It seemed like a no-brainer when given the promise of greater future rewards and limitless prosperity. The dumb part enters in when people continued to believe the theology long past the point of receiving any "return on investment."

A2 Humans seek what they perceive to be rewards and avoid what they believe to be costs. A3 Rewards vary in kind, value, and generality. A5 Some desired rewards are limited in supply, including some that simply do not exist. At the beginning, taking the PFAL class (supposedly) provides great rewards at relatively low cost. You get all this knowledge for the low, low, price of $x. Theoretically, one should be able to take that knowledge and put it to use - BUT - it's really not all that easy unless you are attending twig 3x per week and abundant sharing. If you are attending 3x a week and abundant sharing, you will become a member of the household. Now I used to joke that while some of my fellow wayfers would be sitting in the kitchen with Jesus, my place in paradise would probably be in the outhouse since my involvement was minimal. Your place in the household was in direct proportion to what you were doing in this life to "move the word." The gotcha is that one never really knew what "enough" was. I would wager that every last one of you who went into some sort of TWI "continuing education" or "service" did so with the "promise" of greater future rewards and more abundant current prosperity, which TWI promised would happen if you applied the advanced "keys" correctly. Moving "the word" in TWI fashion and intensity was the ticket, but there was always that sense of it never being enough to ensure the reward. Even in the face of glaring contradictory "senses" information, people were very sure that doing all these things was going to provide them with those elusive rewards and those unseen rewards, so they kept on doing it. One of the ways that was done was through minimalizing the effect of "senses" knowledge and capitalizing on information received through the "spiritual realm," which no one wanted to admit they weren't getting. Then you had to worry about which "spiritual realm" you were partaking in. Since no one really knew the difference, we were to be dependent on those who did. Only those who had risen in the ranks through the giving of money and time (and time devoted to learning the keys) were thought to be able to accurately discern, thereby providing a level of mediation between this world and the spiritual world. People wanted to accurately discern and perhaps mediate themselves, so they continued in this quest by giving more time and more money, thereby earning their way to that position. The only person who wasn't tied into this system of rewards was the founder and his immediate posse. He set himself up as this all-knowing guy and got a fair amount of people convinced that he was the one with all the information necessary to get the special rewards that weren't available to the mainstream Christian. So, while many things that happened in TWI assaulted your senses world sensibilities, the notion that all this was operating in the spiritual realm beyond your understanding seemed rational in the TWI setting.

The answer is probably not bigger, but similar. Through some serious missteps in the 90s through 2006 they lost many of the TWI people who wanted a similar experience without the crazy. The outreach is very much entrenched in TWI methods (a "class"), and since there is an internet, the element of surprise is gone. JAL, in particular, sees STF as being a haven for people who have left TWI, so the entire concept of a seeker type outreach is simply not there. I sincerely doubt if there are more than 5000 on the mailing/email list as the list was only slightly higher than that after the big exodus from twi in 1987, and numbers had decreased, not increased (at least through 2004). I doubt if the "partnership" program exceeds 600 members. One thing you can be sure of is unless it's something to boast about, you're not going to get any exact numbers from them. My information is only accurate through 2004.

My understanding from talking to MG was that they were in mediation.

Anybody know if the lawsuits still going? Or did it just kinda go "fizz"..?