lindyhopper

Hell yeah, it has to be Hellmans! Krys, your mayo cake gave me shuttering flashbacks of a desert my mother-in-law made once. It was basically jello, fruit and Miracle Whip. Nasty stuff! I didn't realise what it was until I tasted it and just about died on the spot. My experience (and it seems the be the same here) is that those with less discerning taste, like my mother-in-law, will go either way. No offense, but MW is disgusting.

We went to one when I was 12 or 13. I posted about it when MotherO2 asked about it earlier. It was an alright time as I remember it. Although, looking back I wonder the same thing you do, Chef. Us kids stayed with kids our own age with a camp counselor in charge. My teenaged brother had the same. I believe my parents stayed together, although, we were in or just out of residence so perhaps they had special treatment, I don't know. I didn't perticularly enjoy the morning "devotion with motion" thing. Any of you do this? It was like morning group calisthenics with the goofier of way songs. We had fellowship time, meals with family, little hikes, games, went down the river in a raft (the short version), and had a boat race with boats we made. He did spend time as a family but not what I would expect for a "family" camp.

10/10 Whooo Hooo! Actually, I am pretty sure I screw these up from time to time while posting here. It is more due to the fact that I kinda just type without thinking about grammer. Just putting my thoughts down, sometimes quicker than my hands can handle. Plus, I just don't give a sh!+. :)

George, very sad news, I'm sorry to here it. I have always admired and respected you through your words here since I first started lurking. You have achieved what anyone should hope to be able to achieve, raising a child to be a better perosn than we have been. In that way, you have changed the world for the better and it will be your legacy. I hope to hear a "miracle" post by you in the near future. You know I got a call from my father the other week. He says to me, "I have cancer..." I gasp. "Don't worry it isn't bad." Tears had welled up in my eyes as I started laughing. Apparently, prostate is one of the good kinds. So, on to that good conversation you wanted.... what do you want to talk about? It's nice to meet you, George. You can call me Matt.

Yeah, Danny, very scary, but I'll have to take a look at the movie, don't thinkI've seen it. You know, i thought I posted this in the open section. I guess I am either loosing it or someone moved it down here. I thought this to be more of a current events sort of thing or maybe something paralleling TWI to a degree, but not doctrinal. Any debate whether church leaders should have total rule over another person's life? I doubt it. This is FLDS not the LDS church, so it's not like another LDS discussion. It's an insane cult, not just another insane religion. lol Just kidding folks. Perhaps it is more of a discussion about gay masochistic love between religous and civic leaders. There's your topic. Discuss.

Hi Moryan, I was raised in twi from the age of 5 so as you might imagine I have had a few experiences with dating non-twi ladies. I'm a little older than you (31) but when I was your age I had dated twi women (not may choices) and non-twi women and at 24 I think I was dating a non-wayfer. They were good times. Challenging and perhaps a bit rebellious (knowing that I should not date outside of twi), but some of my best days while still in, I must say, were when dating non-twi women. So first I would ask, what are you looking for in a woman at this point? Are you looking for a wife? More and more people are marrying later but some still get married in their early twenties, either is fine if people are actually ready for it. If you are, then I would say it is time to move on. As many have already told you, that will most likely not happen unless you join and become gung ho. Doesn't sound like your cuppa tea. Good! If you are just dating and falling in love etc. with a realistic view towards what you are doing and you love the girl, then I say...love her. Be there for her, challenge her, care about her life and the direction it is going but don't argue over everything twi in her life right now. Be the example of what she may think is not really possible, a loving, caring, honest, Christian with many good points regarding their faith that challenge her own. Most of us know that if you haven't found the person that you know you want to marry, but still love them that at some point something will happen that will cause the two of you to split and both parties will be hurt and move on. Or something will happen that makes you realise that this is actually the person you want to spend your life with and you will move on together. So be the good man that you should be and love and respect the one you love and don't allow their faith to be your excuse for cutting ties. Allow her to do that if she chooses to. Unfortunately, she may get pressured to do that and she may succumb. That will be a true judge of her character. On the other hand, that pressure may cause her to question TWI and while she may still break up with you, you will still have shared love and respect between you and in the process you may have helped her get one step closer to leaving the group. Or it may cause her to leave. Who knows. If you do go to a fellowship, then be honest with them and with your questions (don't be afraid to ask them and keep asking them). I suspect continued questioning will speed the process of her being told that you are not good for her, but many times these things vary largely upon where you live and who the local leaders are. If you go for a while (don't stay too long) and then decide to not attend anymore, I think that would also cause someone to tell her you are not the best person for her to be dating. When I was young (through to 17ish) who I dated (very few) was not much concern for my parents or local leaders. Although, once I moved out of the house and got older, that quickly became their business. (Funny how becoming an adult should have made it the exact opposite.) It got to a point where I just didn't date, because there were not any local girls my age in twi, and I knew that if I dated a non-twi person that this fact alone would be the source of our problems and I didn't want to be that bad guy and hurt people I cared about for that reason. Plus I thought in my late teens and early twenties that I was looking for the person I wanted to marry. Later I decided that was screwed up and dated non-twi women anyway, but did it on the DL, lol, because I knew I would be confronted on it at some point. It ended up that it didnt' matter because I was confronted on how much time I was spending with non-twi people, not just ladies I might be dating, but anyone. Pretty F'ed up, I know. So anyways, that is my advise. Keep your head up and your eyes open and love the one you love, damn the circumstances and difference in faith and help her grow into the person she really is, inspite of TWI. You obviously know that side of her already. So tread softly and be careful in the way you approach your differences. You say she flies of the handle. That seems like a defence mechanism to me. Don't challenge by telling her she is wrong. Challenge by asking questions, not by defiance. ...and if you ever feel the need to talk outside of a forum feel free to drop me a PM. LH

Hmmmm Straitjacket for the kids, eh? Eggcellent. Muwahahahaha.

Ah words, they are funny aren't they? For example, the implication in a sympathetic tone of waybrain. No offence taken, but clearly my points have been thought through and considered and not just parroted back as I might have done in my Way daze. Mark I can see what you are saying and that your assumption that God is doing the transformation is indeed reasonable due to the fact that this is the Bible we are reading. Although, strictly grammatically speaking, assuming that being in the passive voice automatically means that one is being acted upon is an incorrect assumption. One clue is that there is not an active counterpart in this context. The reason we know this is passive tense is the use of an auxiliory verb in "transformed by the renewing." That is the only reason. That being the case, "transformed" is an ergative verb and is used in an intransitive construciton, meaning that no agent is mentioned and that the subject can be acting on itself. This can still be considered passive voice, but could more accurately be considered middle voice or mediopassive voice. We could also look at this a little differently, seeing that the English and Greek use periphrastic passive. The figure of speach periphrasis is using many phrases or words to express the meaning of another word or concept. So that basically means that in this case "transform" and "renewing your mind" are the same things said two different ways conveying the change. This is what I think many of you are implying that it is God who is both renewing and transforming in one proccess which we allow. I can see that in the context of the Bible and of Romans, but I don't see that in this immediate context. I see a context of what an individual should do in their head: not be high-minded, remember your place in the body and that you were graphed on this "tree" and can be broken off it just the same, prove what is the good and acceptable will of God. So I see the transformation and the renewing, renewal, renovation (doesn't really matter) as being done by the subject in this case...you and I. I can also see that in the context of the Bible being read a certain way that one cannot perform this proving without first being transformed by being born again. I disagree, but I can see that. It doesn't seem that any of you have a problem with one controling their thinking even though, as I pointed out, that alone can be a transforming act. It seems the big problem is the idea that we have to do this "BIG thing" of transformation, even though this big thing is made up of very simple small steps over time, step by step thought by thought. Consider the exercise analogy again. The huge transformation of loosing fifty pounds is accomplished by small steps, one by one, pound by pound, thought by thought, day by day exercising, the pounds come off and the transformation takes place. TAKES PLACE. The transformation is both the final destination and the process. It is very doable But I am not going to convince anyone here of this. So lets compromise. So lets look at the New Living Translation. (BTW, in all major mainstream translations I see renewing, renewal, or transformed in the newness [Latin].) The NLT puts it this way, God will not change the way you think, free will, you allow him to transform you by YOU changing the way you think. In my non-professional opinion, this puts it very well in the immediate context and the context of Romans and the Bible, I just disagree with a few words, like God. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Oh, and bye Bliss. You and your family have a Merry Christmas

I can see how that would also make sense to the Christian, Mark, but what would the admonishion of "be not conformed to this world" matter much if the Christian is being transformed beyond their control. And what is that "but" doing there in between the two?

Perhaps you are right, although, I did say that I am reading this throught he filter of my experiences and observations. That said, I do try to wipe the slate clean occasionally and look at things with fresh eyes. THAT said, I still think I am reading this correctly and I think you acutally see it the same way, just with a different emphasis. I also think you might have misunderstood my poorly written post, which looks a little contradictory in parts now as I re-read it. Oh well. That is basically what I was saying. I didn't mean to imply that it needed to be regimented. Although, that does work in most other areas of life. The problem with TWI was and is (maybe to a lesser degree at the moment) that they did this for you and DEMANDED it of you. Many of the self-help, motivational speaker, guru, techniques VPW and LCM turned into a religion actually do work at times, with some people, to certain degrees. It should not be taught as a religion, universally applied and required, though, IMO, and a religion should not teach the valuable and helpful teachings in the Bible in this way either. This is what I mean by different emphasis. You state that we are not perfect and that God doesn't expect us to be. How is this not "a regimented life time process that we try to get better at doing." Maybe not reginmented, but if we are not trying to become better human beings or sons of God then we obviously are thinking that we are pretty damn good as is, perhaps "higher than we ought to think." We shouldn't try to become better people to try and prove something about ourselves to others or to God as if our works make us holy. But "show me your faith without works...." Show me anything worth anything that doesn't require works. Show me how you prove what is good and acceptable without works. You said that JC's accomplishments was the "transforming," but that transformation was a one time occuance when you believed, but it says "renewING" to "prove" and that the transformation is by the renewing. The transformation you speak of requires believing not renewing and the context is to those that have already made THAT transformation. I may be using less specific and religous words but I think we are talking about the same things. Whether you emphisize JC's accomplishments or whether I emphisize the congnative impetus to prove what is morally right there will be a transformation regardless. Because if niether of us do either of those things, then we will become conformed to the mainstream downward spiral of the world. Because conformity is a brainless, fear driven, yet comfortable and acceptable accomplishment on this planet. Transformation will happen becuase we renew our minds to something better than that, because the mediocrity of conformity is the destination of the life on autopilot. Look at the verses on either side of ROm 12: 1,2, on both sides you have mention of "not thinking too highley of oneself" and in verse one you have "living sacrifice." "Grafted on an olive tree" is on one side and the "one body" is on the other. In the middle you have renewing your mind and transformation. I think this is about going from the old "worldly, high-minded" you to the "good and acceptable, humble" you who looks at yourself in relation to those around you, whether that be on the olive tree or in the one body. Recognizing your humble position and the importants of others no matter their position and your connection to them can be a life changing and transforming outlook.

I guess this could go in About the Way as well but here is probably better.... Latest in the polygamist leader Warren Jeffs ordeal. here from the letter:

I hear ya, TBone and company. My place has my paintings and drawings from 93-95ish. I haven't made much art since. A little, but not much. I have been trying to figure out a way to get all this twi stuff into my art to help get past it or something. I think I may have found a way, but it has taken me a while to figure it out and I now the getting past the hump of starting is the problem. I'll share it here if you don't mind. Not like you have much say in this. Maybe someone will get it, maybe not. Actually, some background. I have several drawings on my walls and in my portfolio from college (that 93-95 stint). They are self portraits of me with part of all of my head being cropped off the page. At the time I had my reasons for doing this but looking back I think, "that was totally me at that point in twi....not using my head." Anyway, around the same time we had a project in sculpture class to make a vessel for a body part. I know, strange, but I liked it and it stuck with me. I tried to make a spine box which didnt' really turn out and was later either thrown out or lost. So years later, out of twi, back in school, I decided to take on this same project again and do it right. For me it is using canopic jars as a metaphor. Canopic jars being what some ancient cultures used to store certain organs. These organs were thought to be the source of certian qualities in a person. We use the similar metaphors today, such as having a heart....it is where love and compasion come from. The spine is used in relation to one's conviction and sincerity and courage, etc. So I went ahead with the spine box and it came out real cool. So now think I am going to continue with this and see how far it goes. I am working on which body part to go with next and what the "canopic jar" will be like and so on. For me this is like the next life. These respectable qualities that we identify with body parts or organs were boxed up and unused in my twi days, but now the "jars" empty and I am learning to use them again. Perhaps for me, in this case, I was not in a straight jacket, but wrapped up like a mummy with all my better qualities in jars waiting for me to wake up.

I look at Rom 12:2, as we all do with everthing, with the filter of my experiences and observations, although i think there are certain universal truths, which is a phrase that is really a little redundant. Take for example, conformity. It does not take much thought to conform to the mainstream. In fact in most cases it probably requires no thought at all. It is more of a reactionary response to pressure, however little or great, subtle or blatant, it may be. So, if that is how we have lived then what do we do? We take all that crap and wipe the mental slate clean, we renew it and start over with a fresh look, much the same way many of us have done here concerning twi. And crazy enough as it is....it changes your life. And here we are.

Amen to that, Dipsey Farkletush.

What has "renewed mind" come to in twi these days? Anyone know? I ask because I was just talking with a close relative yesterday talking about my boys (1 & 3 y/o) and how they are at eachother constantly taking toys, pushing, etc, especially the 3 year old. I was told I could teach him not to do that (duh) and that this was basically just lack of renewing his mind. :blink: My first thought was "Are you insane", but I didn't say that. WTF does that mean? I know what I was taught in twi and how it was misused over the years to me and others, but WTF does this mean in light of a 3 year old acting.....3. I do remember my young brother getting yelled at to renew his mind, but this made no sense to me. I think what it has evolved into is "control your mind." I also remember my young bro getting yelled at from a young age to "control his thinking." A tall order for a little boy who is getting whacked with a spoon in the proccess. Sad thing is, I think this is exactly what the Bible is talking about and what many of you are talking about, except probably not in the context of a young child. Of course, on the other hand, in the Bible we are constantly refered to as children or young children, so prehaps I see where they were getting it from. Bliss, quite frankly, the quote from the site you posted raises the hair on the back of my neck. I actually agree with the general point the person was making, but the language sounds more like, "don't let others control your mind, give up control to God." Perhaps that makes a lot of sense to many of you and that is fine, but for me I think there is a reason I have a brian, a mind, and I agree "as a man thinketh, so is he." To me that statement is about as simple as anyone can put it. I don't really see the confusion. Change your thinking---> changes your actions----> changes you life. "As a man thinketh so is he." That is how you are transformed. I am no seller of formula, but that is how life works. Our words and actions protray who we are and it all starts in the mind. New thoughts energize new actions and if you do it long enough, the old will pass away. It is like going on a diet or exercise regimen. At first it may be hard and you have to constantly tell yourself, "don't eat that," or "get up you lazy piece of sh t and go run!" As you continue to do it these reminders are no longer neccessary and running becomes a need in you life and chocolate cake is unappealing to you. I can see how one might read Rom. 12: 1,2 and say the "transforming" is all God's job. Now I don't know Greek, but a simple read of the verse tells me that the transforming is BY the renewing of the mind, and I see no other way to read it other than ME and YOU do our own renewing. The problem is that as Geoy said, I think it has little to do with explitcit fundamental reading of the Bible and more to do with general ideas that are repeated over and over again in it (last part not what Geoy said). Nor IMO does it have anything to do with spirit. Spirit does not make you new person. Well, some may think that but I think most agree it doesn't in terms of your thoughts and actions. People can change who they are as a person for the better or not, do a total 180 or not, throw a whole new pot or not, regardless of whether you or I or they think they have spirit or not. I see no other way to read it, please show me one if you can. Verse one beseaches YOU to "PRESENT YOUR body" as a living sacrafice "holy, acceptable, unto God" and this is YOUR reasonable service. WE are not to be conformed but WE are to be "transformed BY the renewing of YOUR mind" so that YOU prove what is the good and acceptable will of God. It is about controling our thinking and thereby our actions and REASONING through those thoughts and then our actions to prove what is good and acceptable. So when I said earlier, "the sad thing is..." I was not talking about sad that we have to control our thinking but that twi used and still uses this as a legalistic devise to lord over people. Sad thing is many times people read this verse and give up the control either to the book or to other people. To me the verse clearly puts the ball in our court. Put away bad things that are hurtful to you and to others and reason through what is good and acceptable and prove it with your actions. Thats the way I see it anyway.

As long as we are making space analogies... In the darkness of space there is light everywhere. If you were to measure a point in space where there seemed to be no light at all, there would infact be light coming from every direction. So in that analogy we would say that light is light and what appears to be darkness is light as well....even in the shadows.

Had you ever heard of the term "white devils", Belle? To be clear for those that don't know, Islam and the Nation of Islam are two different things. You can take a look at the Nation of Islam here. Louis Farrakhan has been in the press over the years and if you didn't know that he was a whack job then, yes, you did have your head in twi sand. I believe it was Elijah Mohammad that made up the term "white devils" or perhaps the Native Americans may have coined it. I believe Malcolm X was apart of the Nation of Islam but later parted ways. There may be some controversey over that as well as if that had a part in his assasination. Many white supremisists have a similar view on black races as well. I knew one in my teen years who said, "look at Adam and Eve, they were white." lol I think their view was that "blacks" were a race spawned from Satan himself. Anywho. I believe Elijah Mohammad was born shortly after the Emancipation Proclomation and was wrongly inprisoned at some point and had a generally bad experience with white folk on the whole. He decided to make a religion out of it. Go figure.

ha, Sir G, that was funny. I have been feeling a bit of the same these days and last night had a very funny one as well. Belle's online dictionary actually pinned many things I have been feeling and dealing with to a tee....but who knows. I woke up laughing about it. If you don't mind.... In the dream my wife and I wake up in the boys room, but we don't have boys and things are set up differently. We wake up and it is 11am. We're late. So we start rushing around to get ready and I go into the bathroom to see that the toilet, sink and vanity are gone. Everything is stripped to the floor. I call my wife in to look at it and we come to the conclusion that one of us called maintainance and they came and took it while we were sleeping in. We turn to go back into the room only to scare the crap out of ourselves as we almost walk into a second set of us. They are waking up, but at a normal time, like 7am. They don't see us, but we see them, this freaks us out a bit. So the second me is getting ready and goes into the bathroom for the morning release. The first wife and I look at eachother with concern, because obviously the second me doesn't notice that there is no toilet. So second me starts to go and the first us watches as it fills an invisible toilet. Second me finishes and flushes and we watch the water go down the invisible toilet and down the invisible plumbing. The same goes for the sink as me #2 washes his hands in what appears to be an invisible sink. I begin to realise that not only are we watching ourselves at an earlier time in the day but in a totally different time all together. I start to geek out about whether we are in alternate universes or if we or they are in the past or future, or if they are different people all together, and what the hell happened to our bathroom fixtures anyway, when there is a knock at the door. The maintianance guy is there and he begins to reinstall the new toilet and sink while Me and wife #2 get ready around him. Then I wake up. I must say it has been a while since I remembered much about my dreams but this one came right at a big point in our life, and when I woke up it made me laugh. I have just finished a kitchen project that has taken up the greater part of my life over the last year. That is a major weight off my shoulders and the end of a pretty chaotic but exciting time. We are putting our boys in daycare starting in 07 and have been filling out the paperwork and having meetings in the past week. I am seriously starting my business come the new year as well. So there is some anxiety over no longer watching my boys during the day and the uncertainty of starting a business. We are also leaving the boys for the first time this coming week with my mom-in-law for a couple of days. So, we are also finally doing our Will before we go. Belle's link had meanings to a lot of the symboles like the bathroom/ urination, waking up late, being invisible, etc that totally hit on a lot of the feelings that have come along with life of late. Although, I didn't see anything in there on invisible toilets. Good luck with your rocket cerial bowl. Say, have you added fiber to your breakfast lately?

I think that just shows to go ya that the old style witnessing tactics ain't workin'. This style of "ministry" is on it's way out across the board, IMO.

You know all this talk got me thinking when I saw a sign the other day. I was at the Denver CU campus the other night for a talk and fund raiser with John Fielder, an amazing landscape photographer. Passing through the halls we passed a study area. The sign on the door said, "Do not become a victim of theft. Don't leave your belongings unattended." It seems we have gotten to a place where we all know a sign saying "Do not steal" would not work. To put it in old English, "Thou shall not steal," at a state school would probalby be protested and torn down. lol We've excepted that people are going to steal and the ownous is now squarely on the victim. Don't become one, it is your responsibility. Of course this is true to a degree. Most cases of person to person crime could have been avoided in one way or the other. The girl who has been raped was obviously showing a little too much leg in that short skirt. Or, didn't she know that when the guy bought her dinner he thought it came with sex afterwards? Give me a break, right? She knew that. I could have avoided being mugged twice had I only traveled two by two everywhere and not have gone into the city....where people get mugged. If I would have then reported it to the police, they would have caught that young black male wearing baggy clothes. I mean it is a no brainer. Don't trust people, that is naive. Always look over your shoulder and for God's sake, don't take your minister's word for it...or your doctor's....or your school teacher's...or police officer's...and especially not a nun's. If you do and something happens, you should have known better, people are not to be trusted. God on the other hand is. If something that God says doesn't happen..... well, you know...... it's on you. Those that steal are going to steal. Those that rape are going to rape. Those that lie are going to lie. If these things happen to you, you should have seen it coming and changed your actions. What we needed in twi were more of these "don't become a victim" signs. At every fellowship there should have been a sign saying, "Don't become a victim, check every teaching and reproof with THE Word and confront your leader if it is wrong." We're human, we need these reminders. We should have know THE correct interpretation of THE Word and known when we were being bamboozled. Your fault if you didn't. The real question is which is worse, the bamboozler or the bamboozleee (sorry for the yoddleing) who could have seen it coming if they had only seen it?

I don't know if they are doing family camp again or not. I would think Bliss would know better than I though. I went to one on 86ish, I think. It was ok. I remember thinking that some of the activities were lame and didn't like the morning workout thing. That and I don't remember it being very "family campish." What I mean is that I stayed in a bunk room with other kids my age, had our own camp councelor type guy, and did a number of activities with them during the day. My parents stayed in another cabin and my older brother had a similar situation as I did. There were family times, but it was hardly what I would consider a family camp today. Today, if I wanted to do a family camp type thing, this would not at all be what I would think of doing. I would think family camp would be something where the whole family did everything together with other families. Not the case with the one at Camp Gunnison. The place is still there and they train a few way corps there (train future leaders).

Yeah, Chas, the M&A junk was a big motivator. So it was "off the word"....so what, for some of us leaving had broader consequences. For me it was a fear of loosing my entire immediate family (mom, stepdad, brothers). When I finally left I was at a point that I thought that was a very real possibility (never seeing or hearing from them again- M&Aed forever). I had leaders who had said they did that to their own family and of course we had been told how to treat those that were M&Aed and how screwed up they were. So there was the pressure of how I thought my family would think of me as well. So by the time I left I was mentally ready for that to happen and part of me expected it to, yet I was at a point where loosing my family was not as bad as staying. That is pretty f*cked up! It seems almost unreal to me at this point...like a different life (only 5-6 years ago, ha). Thankfully, while the first 6-12 months were kinda rough and contact was sparce, we eventually got back to a pretty normal relationship, and in recent years it has gotten much better. For me, that was a big part of what "forced" me to put up with a ton of bs. Of course, thinking that I had to obey leadership to obey God was a big part of it at first though, too. I had questions and never got answers but I was of the mentality for quite some time that this was the best thing going and that it was a flaw in my understanding. Knowing my own doubts had me battling in my mind over these unanswered questions and the things that I thought were wrong vs. not being spiritually mature enough to understand them.

I don't think this is really about WhiteDove blaming the victim. Perhaps it is symantics. Take force and replace it with coerced. No, no one took anyone by the hand and forced them physically to beat kids. No one physically took a pregnant woman by the hand and physically made her sign the medical papers to have an abortion, forced her legs in the sterups etc. yadda yadda yadda People were coerced though. Of course, a synonym of coerced is forced.

Hey, your right. Why didn't we just check da Verd and come up with the truth on our own. I mean it has worked for the rest of Christendom right? I might be wrong here, but the rest of them have come to a truthiness consensus. Right? No, no, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong on that one. I believe, you can look at da Verd in about a gazillion different ways. The revelation, or whatever it was, of "go abuse your kids" was backed by "spare the rod...", "train up your children in the way of the Lord..", and "children obey your parents in the Lord...". The spouse junk had it's own chapter and verse as did the " King" having pick of the "virgins in his kingdom." They all had some "scripture" to back it up even if it wasn't real clear. If I only had a nickel for all the times I heard the apparent contradictions teachings. Anything that seemed contradictory obviously fell in the "in our understanding" category. Congratulations. Although, I don't really think that occurred to any of us. Yet, you hung around for 18 years. I don't know when or why you left, but if you stayed for that long you were like the rest of us and missed a lot of things. Yet, he said, and LCM repeated over and over that "the Word is the Ministry and the Ministry is the Word."

Good question, Whitedove, even though the answer is probably one you've read many times here. So, I'll be brief. 2 Tim 2:15 was trumped by a misinterpretation of "private interpretation." That teaching made it so that the "Word" you were being taught was not the word of men, but the word of God and beyond reproach. This was shortly after the teaching of the integrity of "the Word." The teaching of the fall of man was in there as well. Eve considered, questioned, changed words etc. and that was wrong. All you had to do was buy into a handful of those original foundational teachings and critical thinking was out the window. Of course, in the process of learning this, questions were discouraged. You were to not question untill the end, because it was more likely that ALL your questions would be answered over the course of the class. All this crap was the real deal and the rest of the learn how to rightly divide the Bible yourself and discern truth from error was bs. Sure this didn't work on some people. Some saw through it right away and never finished the class. As most of us know, though, many didn't and some still don't. There are plenty of people still in for the basic reason that Rascal explained here. Obey even if it is wrong, after all it is the best thing going. Then there are those that still believe VPW's recanned dogma. Go figure.