lindyhopper

I don't think scientists assume this and I certainly don't. There are many different types of dating techniques which are assumed by creation scientists to be wrong. What you are referencing are people that assume first that the Bible's literal version of origins is correct and then try to find the science to back up their view, meanwhile ignoring or dismissing mountains of other evidence. It is not honest or genuine science. The reason I ask about God's motives is because the events you are discussing are stories in the Bible and the only reasons for these magnificent life and earth altering events (the only two in the Bible's version of the history of the world) are God's reaction to widespread sin of man. So, if it can happen on Venus by natural course, then why wouldn't it happen on earth in the same way? If we are to read Genisis in a literal way concerning creation then, should the flood and Peleg not also be read this way? It makes more sence to me that just as massive geological events happened on Venus without man or God in the equation then large scale events could happen on earth in the same fashion whether they take ten years or ten million. It would then also make more sense to me that catestophic local events occuring in a time when other world religions attributed things like rain, snow, flooding, earthquakes, and volcanoes to their respective dieties, that the Bible is no different. So since there seems to be no reason for God to drastically change Venus' landscape, and that it happened by purely natural causes and reasons, then why did it happen there and not here. The short answer is that even though it is our "sister planet" does not mean that it is at all as similar to earth as genetic siblings. I would say that most of the amazing geologic and atmospheric events that take place on Venus are simply by virtue of it's location in the solar system and it's planetary make up. Which are actually the same reason. I would also think that if there are events which have made a noticable impact on Venus where we can see the effects from a great distance, that more than just creation scientists would have realised that similar geologic events happened here on earth.

God supposedly killed the entire world with a flood in Noah's day and segregated the entire world in Peleg's day primarily for sin related reasons. Why exactly did He cause this catastrophic geological event on Venus?

I live in CO, Larry, so I well aware of the many amazing places here and we try to take advantage of as many as possible while we are here. I don't think the Gunni vaca will be bad at all. As far as I know, it is not organized in with any twi activies. It is strickly a vacation atmosphere. What a novel idea!

Fr*nk poppin and lockin! We were in the same family cork with the St*tz family. Back in the day little fr*nk could dance just like Michael Jackson. Back then that was cool....now not so much. Although, the whole break dancing thing is making a come back in highschool aged kids. Still the whole video....suuuuucks. Poor Fr*nk. Fogive him Lord for he knows not what he do. be do be do. Speaking of old school dancing vids. You can't beat this from Hellzapoppin. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTg5V2oA_hY or the the old school gone new with these two dudes.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWYZM4Wj7ZI...ated&search=

I might, in fact, be going to the Camp Gunni for a family vacation with the rest of my still twi affliated family in the next year or two. We can camp in a luxurious log cabin, ride the rapids, go horseback riding, hike, and tons of other things that we could have done plenty of other times at one of thousands of other places over the years, but never considered it until TWI officially brought up the idea recently as a way to save their CO real estate. <_< What a BLESSING! I can hardly contain my blessiness. I'm blessed beyond blessidy bless blessed. I might go to one of my family's fellowships if I were in town visiting and staying with them. I wouldn't make a habit of it though and I wouldn't be a party line conversationalist afterwards.

One thing I remember about GB other than him being a major a-hole at times to the JC and mC, was big hairy moles. moley, moley, moley, moley I'm sure that is all I would be able to think if I saw him today. sorry memories....

I believe I was in at the time MiniC. We were allowed to watch ghost busters one night and the next morning heads were rolling. Not being AC grads yet, we were not prepared for those kind of spiritual realities. Cats and Dogs sleeping together, total pandamonium! The Gate Keeper and the Key Master, ectoplasm, and a giant stay puffed mashmallow man, good thing there were spiritual heavies on campus to keep us still on their spiritual teet safe from evils like those. What sirG was talking about hits home....sort of. There was that victory mindset in an extreme sence at times but at the same time I always felt like I fell way short of it and that I was not able to accomplish much without the oversight of others. You needed leaders to succeed and they (many of them, not all) needed to be apart of every decision as "wise counsil", but with your life under that close scrutiny, it was inevitable that they would find something wrong with you, something you needed to change, something they felt was holding you back. What was missing was a little faith, if you will. Faith in yourself allowing you to make a leap, maybe a blind one, and learning from the success and/or failure. In starting my own business, in a similarly paradoxical way, this has been both a prod and a hurdle to get over. On the one hand, there has been a feeling of inadequecy and self doubt at times, but on the other is the strong distaste for a boss telling me what to do all the time. Of course there could be a lot of things about me and my life attributing to these things.

The latest Incubus. All of it - good. Social Distortion - Reach for the Sky Rise Against - Ready to Fall Silversun Pickups - Lazy eye Single File - Zombies Ate My Neighbors Sonic Youth - Suger Cane Basically rockin out.

happy birthday Oak Hope you have a great day.

I was going to say, I am not at all suprised. I stopped by there a few years ago to see the place and it was clear to me that they were having a hard time keeping the place up. It didn't look as pristine as I had remembered it. Of course, the fact that I only found one guy on the property probably had something to do with it. They were trying to convert old farm fields into soccer fields and baseball diamonds. Upkeep alone required a lot of work, imagine converting the farm and campus into a sports retreat. I think these folks got in a little over their head. Not a bad idea though.

You know, this is already how I view the TV. "Honey would you turn the tube on, we need a message from the Lord." Kids disobeying? "Go to your room and don't come out until you have memorized today's Countdown with Keith Oberman." A fight with the wife? "Let us get God's counsil on Oprah or Dr. Phil." Feeling down? Turn on the "Good News." (Take your pick... it is all of God.) Need to be healed? Place your hands on the television screen. Praise Jesus! (I always except plasma donations.) Need communion? "Take click this the remote which I have made universal for you." Want the life more abundant? MTV's Cribs is up next, followed by Pimp My Ride! Tongues like as of fire your thing? BAM! God has Emeral there for you when you need him. Iron Chef is up after that. Ah, DrWearWord, I am feelin' you. Right here through my LCD screen. Praise the Lord and his manifestations, of television, all 999 channels all the time. That is what I like to call spiritually mature. In all my TV searching I believe I have found the meaning of life in one word from the profound, sometimes misunderstood great mistic yogi Homer Simpson. It is this. DOH! In this you will find the answers. Comcast clarity be with you.

Nice, Hammer. I think the next decade will sadly be "TWI-the next generation". Maybe they are just keeping the decade of prevailing untill they think they get it right. An affirmation perhaps. Are they really still using it...or just the prevailing lingo?

These were the songs that had me loving TWI as a kid. The Noah song had a lot of different versus and it seemed to vary depending on what part of the country you were from...the same went for the give me gas for my Ford song. lets see... finally yes finally the rain it did stop- finally yes finally the rain it did stop- landed on a mountain top-ee top-ee children of the Lord the animals the animals they came off by three-sees three-sees the animals the animals they came off by three-sees three-sees they learned about the birds and the bee-sees bee-sees children of the Lord gas for the Ford give me oil for my lamp, keep it burnin burnin burnin give me speed for this class I pray yee haw! (ok I made that last part up.) There was the miniWOW song I posted in my story years ago. Holy crap... I mean cow, I get to me a miniWOW Jeepers crow, I know I'm gonna grow Golly gee, I'll get to me the best that I can be as I manifest the Christ in me. Gee willickers, that was a jim dandy of song. Jeezey peezies! I'm so glad Wally and the Beave got born again so they could write that one.

That would most definitely be an interesting life, IMO, to remember hurt and sorrow but not feel it at all in that remembering. :(

I think I am a gen X'er... Raised in "da Word" from age 5. The road to questioning and leaving was a long one I guess and perhaps my story changes a little everytime I think about it. I remember going to art school was a big deal for me. I was confronted with new ideas and POVs. It wasn't long before there were people in twi trying to be my parents. There was fustration with never being able to "win" someone. There was my parents being M&Aed a couple of times and the first girl I thought I was going to marry leaving me and the ministry without explanation. But all of that didn't really get me thinking and questioning. Those things just caused self doubt from not being able to live up to the standard or thinking the inclings of doubt or hestitation in my mind were of the devil. That first serious girl splitting did get me questioning a bit come to think of it. The journey of going from unbelief to absolute belief was a mystery to me, having grown up in twi and having been taught that faith was not neccessary. LCM's WAP class got me scratching my head a bit. Other than the wacky stuff, what stuck out to me was why did we believe the Bible was the Word of God....the integrity of the Word teaching. It went something like "Is the Bible the Word of God...well lets look at the Word to see what it says about itself." :blink: For some reason after twenty years, give or take, it struck me. That was my whole reason for believing it, was because it said it was? Well, that started me on a slow road to infidelville. The lawsuits just seemed so typical, it was never about the leaders for me, it was about the followers and about friends and family and that is what kept the arrogance and feeling of superiority somewhat grounded.

Well, as I said, I'm not a gun nut and I'm NOT an ANTI-GUN nut. But since I think I have been pegged as the illogical liberal anti-gun freak, I'll play the part for a while since the arguement is pretty much one sided at this point. First off Rhino and the constitutional right to have a rocket launcher POV: It all comes down to one comma. We tend to skip over this part of the second ammendment but there it is at the beginning... or as seen in other copies You see it? Right there after Militia. From Wikipedia: The later version without the comma is the version approved by the Senate and House and was ratified by the states. Of course, there are huge arguements about this and it all comes down to your POV vs. some peacenic hippie. But without that comma the second amendment is talking about a well regulated malitia, and well regulated does not mean your buddies nominated you General of zipcode 84243, it is talking about the state and local government. If you look at the early renditions of the amendment you see more language refering to military service. There is much more to the analysis of this amendment and it is all very interesting, but in short it comes down to what the Supreme Court says. They have not ruled gun regulation as infringements on your God given right to own a gun, but have allowed states to allow you to own a gun as a citizen. You may not agree with it but that is the beauty of this country. I would like to know how many of you have been in a situation where you needed to use your gun against an aggressor. Do you all also always wear your seatbelts? I hope so. You're much more likely to get in a car accident. As to the "criminals will always be able to get guns" crowd...really? All criminals will be able to? How many do you think will be able to? How do you think that would impact the number of people killed by guns? How many accidental shootings would occur? Do you think that criminals rob people and their homes and stores just assuming that no one has a gun? Mo had a good point that didn't seem too important to her. Guns make it easier to kill lots of people quickly. As someone pointed out this wasn't the case in the early days of our country when our rights were being defined. The Tim McVay arguement doesn't really hold water. How many incidents like that have happened in our history and how did gun ownership help in those cases? Someone could still just as easily make bombs if they wanted to right now just by looking on the internet and buying materials that don't have any restrictions on them whatsoever. The other arguement that says "guns don't kill people, people do" again is missing what it is saying. If guns don't kill people then you won't miss them and not having guns really wouldn't kill people. and another thing. If we didn't have guns but some criminals did, and the former gun owners spent as much time and money on safety and self defence by other means you wouldn't be any less safe. The only thing that garantees that you will shoot an intruder intending to kill you is that you notice them first and you shoot first and you hit them in the right spot first. The same is true with your bare hands if you know how to use them. Ever heard one of those stories of an old man or woman beating an armed robber off with their cane or hand bag?

I think the writers of the Bible and their contemporaries saw spirit as simply an unseen force and a force unexplainable by them at the time....hence you see the use of pneuma for things like wind. The "life force" was also unknown at the time. Organs for example were viewed as the source of all kinds of physical and mental characteristics. Where do you think all the things associated with "having a heart" came from? I spoke a little bit about this when I spoke about my art and canopic jars. This was a world wide thing. Breath life was not understood....that force of breath....the wind of breath. It was spirit of course. Obviously, there is still much that is unknown, but a lot is there for those that have eyes to read and ears to.... hear books on tape or the Discovery Channel or TLC etc. Just my two bits.

speaking of gullible.... can anyone else confirm that the PFAL book is no longer available at der Vey? Welcome Preacher man.

"flap his gob" I was five when some Way hippies came a knockin'. My older brother and I really liked the fellowship and we were the ones to convince my mom (single at the time) to go back. That SIT thing was sooo cool and we loved the singing...and the refreshments did rock in the 80's. I think my experience is similar to Pmosh's. It is probably a lot like how experiences differ from one area with one leader to another, and the way it is from one family to another. If you had good loving caring parents, things probably were not that bad. I can't think of too many horrible things from my childhood. There are plenty of things though that my brothers and I can look back and laugh about. They are still involved in the Way too. We did move a lot. I think I lived in 6 or 7 different cities, 4 states, and moved around 10 times within those cities, not including every in residence block move. There are pluses and minuses to moving so much. You don't have really old friends that stick with you over the years, but any bad stories about you that might linger when you live in one place your whole life are left with the city when you move. So you can kinda start over new with each move. On the other hand being the new kid all the time meant getting in a lot of fights. But again, there was nothing that scarred me for life with those. Along with having an older brother it probably helped me learn how to defend myself. I used to hear that line that Freeatlast said all the time and used it myself. "I'm so happy I was spared from worldly crap like drugs, sex, abuse, and rebellion." I am happy I didn't have any issues with that stuff, although I probably would have been a happier teen with a little more action in high school. That being said, I don't neccessarily think this is just because we were in the Way or because we were Christians. I knew Way kids with drug and alcohol problems and we have all heard about the "teen orgies" at the Rock. lol Like I said, it probably had a lot to do with what your parents were like. One plus that I see from it is the time spent with our family and the quality of that time. Granted it wasn't the quality time of personal love and attention neccessarily or building bonds on fun vacations, but it was time spent talking about morals and many times good biblical concepts that even now as a non-Christian I see great benefit to. Having dialog about things like love and humility and right and wrong is something that many families can't imagine. On the flip side, most of that dialog was rather shallow. All of lifes problems had a simple biblical according-to-the-Way answer. So most conversations were light hearted and very rarely touching deep subjects or deep personal feelings. I can't think of any discussions about disagreements over anything in life unless it was correction, which really wasn't a conversation. (I'm talking more about as a teen. Obviously as a young kid I wasn't interested in anything of real depth.) I left for college in 93. So most of my kid years were in the 80s, before legalism came out of the closet. We lived for many years without a TV, something that I would still recommend. We were also given quite a bit of freedom as teens. I think my younger bro had much shorter leash by the time he was a teen. That may have been from TWI part duh in the 90s and it may have been about the move to a bigger city and the change in society. I think part of it was LCM's rants on how this isn't Beaver Cleaver days anymore. That was probably good to a degree. Premarrital sex was somewhat unclear, but I know I thought it was ok. The sex talk for us was VP's Christian Family and Sex class. Although, it wasn't really a problem since being a late bloomer had made me somewhat insecure with the ladies and I was more of an introvert. Later when LCM's class replaced CF&S it seemed I was suppose to get my parent's concent to have premarrital sex even though by that point I was in my twenties. Since we never really talked about it to begin with I wasn't going to get their OK at that point. The distinction between sex being ok but "shacking up" or spending the night with someone wasn't ok was confusing to me as a young adult. I was actually confronted on that issue by my other parents...I mean fellowship coordinators. They were well meaning people, but it did seem that in my college years and twenties I had many people other than my parents trying to be my parents. Really becoming an adult, going to college, and the control that was trying to be exerted over my life at that time made things suck much more. Although, at the time I wouldn't have admitted to any degree of suckage. As kid though, it wasn't all that bad. Somehow I came out of it as a pretty decent person. I think.

I'm not a gun nut, nor am I an anti-gun nut. Although, by this logic of everyone packing = everyone being safer, you all would have to agree that no one having a gun would also = everyone being safer, if not more so. This Cho guy would have had a hard time killing 32 people with throwing stars. Unless of course he was a ninja. (note to self: rally in support of anti-ninja laws.) Also, to be clear, owning a gun is not a right (at least not a constitutional right), it is a privilage. If it were a right we would not need permits and licences. On the flip side, I may be a little rusty on my constitutional rights, but I do believe there is one in there about a right to have a taser that matches your pumps that shall not be infringed upon. Thank God for those forward thinking forefathers.

This is how I read it... It is more like being born into a new state of mind. It was always there...the possibilities were always there, but you put away the old and put on the new. The spiritual things like fruit of the spirit were not impossible before making Jesus lord of your life. What does that mean anyway? Commiting to doing the things Jesus wants you to do, doing the things Jesus would do. Just the way anyone would do what their lord told them to do. You are saying you will purposefully live a different better life and strive for that the best you can. Doing something like that can be a major change in a person. You could become a different person, a new person, a new creature. Do it enough and the old things will pass away and you will feel like that was a different life, another life. It is just as radical and unradical as that. IMHO :) The problem I see with a new spiritual creation in you at the moment of the typical born again birth is that it is in some way seperate from you the person. You the body and soul person lives 10, 20, 50 years as a "two part being" and then one day you get "born again". You get this new part of you, this third part of you that you can't really notice or feel or see in any of those first two parts, and that is the part that lives forever. That part goes on after the first two 50 year old parts have died. How is that you? The "you" you and I have known and loved the past five decades. You either have a soul or spirit or what have you and you tap into it or realize it or one doesn't exist. If you make an intermediate stage it gets somewhat confusing. Then again, since we can't really prove it one way or the other, we might as well make up whatever we want and make it as confusing as possible.

I don't get it. Unless there were groups of people from the same city or state, everyone couldn't have gone to their home limb or city. And you know there aren't that many people going WayD. It would seem unlikely that there were only people from a few states going and they all went back to their old state. What am I missing?

Love that band but that is not what I want to talk about. In Der Vey and it seems in many other non-denominational and protestant groups and for many around here "religion" seems to be a bad word. Why is this? There is a reasonable definition for the word that basically involves a belief and respect for a god. Someone else on here a while back said religion was a set of beliefs you guide your life by. I don't see anything offensive with either of those usages. Although, there is this other definition that seems to have been made up my none other than religious organizations that attempts to seperate them from the rest of THOSE people. In this case religion is a "four letter word", perhaps even evil. It is a man made set of rules to control etc. To me this is just a definition that makes it an us vs. them sort of thing... a we're different and better than them sort of thing. So do you use the word "religion" in this way, and if so why? Are you apart of any organized god fearing group? Why do you not accept the normal use of the word? What is wrong with it? How should we refer to it?

Saw the last half (I think) of the show tonight. I had never known all that went on. Crazy scary stuff. Just mind boggling. The most messed up part to me was that it looked like they made the kids, even babies, drink first. Then after some of them watched their kids die, foaming at the mouth, they still went and drank the koolaid. WTF! The other think that struck me was the common but incorrect idea that they could come and go as they pleased. Once the word got out that the reporters heard this was not so, suddenly there were a lot of others wanting to go. That one strikes a chord for me with wayworld. The whole thing was really sickening.

Boy, that does look like a lot of work. Impressive. Perhaps though, we should start with the 275 pieces of evidence pointing to the existence of the man Jesus who we are saying is the Christ. Ok 75. I'll settle for 25.