lindyhopper

It is all pretty much hearsay when it comes down to it. There were only a handful of people who saw VPW when he was on his deathbed, as far as I know. Although, even if "Craiggers" was the only one who heard his last words, I would have a hard time believing anything he said. The tombstone says volumes. As far as the mentality of the up and coming young wafers changing things and their perspective on the way things have been and the way things are...I have discussed this a bit with many of them over on myspace. Many of them seem pretty gung ho, much the same way I was at their age. Many of us were that way in our late teens and early twenties. I was pretty naive and clueless at that age too. They think the way has changed but none of them can tell me how exactly. They think that it is still changing for the better and that they will be apart of making that change happen. It seems most of them (the ones that respond to me) think that all the bad that has happened rests on LCM and people that mimiced his style. It seems expected that if you have left the ministry, you did so because you got hurt by bad leadership. Most of them do admit easily that TWI is not perfect but that every organization has flaws and that TWI has and is changing and is still the best thing going. There are still people frustrated with things. A number of people have contacted me privately from these myspace discussions and it seems there are still young people with the same concerns that many of us had and still have. That is incouraging and expected. The TWI will never be what it was (not as though that is something to aspire to). Times have changed, the culture has changed, going to church has changed, but inspite of the claims of a dynamic church, TWI has virtually stayed the same. The same old things are being taught. Still the same old fellowships. Still the same old class structure. Still the same old rigidity and legalism. The problem was not with one man, but with the doctrine and the assumptions that lead to it and the lies that started the whole thing.

Well, that may be true, but I can't say that I ever saw what I would consider the real deal. I also don't see any Biblical backing to this idea of repeating untill we get it or of accuracy being dependent on us. But that's just me. Shortfuse, I know what your saying about looking for signs. There was a thread on here a while back I believe, on people who had "long suits" in believing to get the good parking spots. Yes, God has saved your lazy butt the spot closest to the door so you don't have to walk 30 feet further.

Yeah, but what is the profit of telling us something in a vague sort of way that is already stated repeatedly in the Bible in many different ways. I mean were we supposed to be more sure of the commandment "turn not to the right hand nor to the left, but stay on the path I have set before you," just because different people kept repeating it over and over again for years? It doesn't add up to me. It wasn't inspiring the first ten times, why would it help to hear it another two hundred times. You would think that if God was truly inspiring people in a specific setting to say something specific to inspire this perticular group of people that the God who created the heavens and the earth could communicate something that would knock the socks off of everyone in that room. Instead, we heard the same thing over and over again except maybe in a different order and usually lining up with the most recent teaching series....which was also something that had been taught repeatedly over the years.

Exactly, how can you "see SIT is real."As far as I can see, belief in God is purely faith and anything like SIT is an action based on that faith and whether it is real or not is again purely a statement of faith and not of observation. Having lived in Baltimore for quite a while, I can say that clearly there were some people naming their kids this way.

"But, but, I'm not dead yet." WHACK! You know the whole judegement of the unjust thing sure seems odd and not a very loving thing to do. You die. God raises you from the dead with the unjust. Why? To judge you. "Oh thank you, I haven't even had my morning cup of coffee yet!" "Sorry, you don't measure up. Back to death for you!" "But wait...WAIT!" WHACK! How silly.

I can't say I have thought about it quite like that before, but how true. Having grown up in TWI I saw a lot of young people SIT for the first time, whether at the end of session 12 or in a different setting. I can't tell you how many times I saw young teens break down in tears, and not tears of joy, from the fustration and the pressure to SIT. They thought they couldn't do it, but after the pressure from the class teacher and whoever was undersheparding them and who.ever else and many attempts they finally did it while in tears. The language was always surprisingly similar to SITing in the fellowship or to VPW's...along the "shanta" variety. I've voice my problems and doubt of SIT before so I won't do it yet again. I will agree though that in the areas that I have been in , they difinitely practiced the manifestations of holy boredom.

Which is partially why I have speculated in the past that VPW's brother Harry, a very successful businessman, "emptied his account" into Victor's new ministry. I think, this is just me thinking, that Harry was either approached by his brother with a "business plan" or that he saw an opportunity and invested in it. All of this talk of the "origins" always gives me the creeps. Coupled with the plagiarism, and the foundational teachings that discourage questioning, considering other views, and critical thinking in general makes it all look so calculated.

A lot of good thoughts on here already. I especially agree with Sudo, socks, and Oakspear. I have heard this too- the fix it idea. It is couragous (sort of) and fruitless and not worth it. I say sort of because most if the time I have heard this, they speak of "laying low" or "holding out" untill they have the opportunity to fix it. Not really all that couragous. What is couragous doing the thing you know you will get kicked out for or confronted for because it is the right thing to do. Lying low years and years while there are things that you know are wrong, is actually cowardly. Ok, forget what I said about it being couragous. Couragous is what people like catcup, John (igotout)and Faith, and Oak and others did. They spoke up when they knew something was wrong even though it cost them their marriage, family, or their position in TWI. Keeping quite untill PERHAPS you can MAYBE do something SOMEDAY, while people are getting hurt or are fustrated or feel trapped or are just throwing they're money away on TWI and rent, is wrong and is egocentric. If someone feels there is something wrong they they should speak up now. If they think they won't be received well, then that should be a red flag. I consider my silent exit strategy couragous too. Deciding to leave and leaving is couragous. It is a big decision. The reason people stay when they are uncomfortable with things or feel things are really wrong is fear. Another red flag. It isn't life threatening. You won't be a greasespot by midnight. You won't be leaving the one true household and God's protection. Believe me, TWI leaders have a "this is the way things are and if you don't like it leave" mentality these days. Nothing new, but you nor anyone else will change that anytime soon. It sounds like the only way to get Marked and Avoided these days is by trying to take others with you. I think most the people that think they can change things at somepoint don't realise how wrong things are and have been from the begining.

Oh yeah, other waykids. Pmosh was raised in it. He isn't on here much anymore unless he has another screne name. Bliss's husband is an old friend of mine from the younger years, but I don't know if he posts here and I don't know if Bliss was raised in the Way either. I knew freeatlast was raised in it too, as well as a number of people that don't come here very often. Pmosh's story is here. Mine is here. Maybe some of that will help you in some way. Feel free to PM me if you what.

Yep I was raised in the Way. We got involved when I was 5 and I stayed untill just before my 26th birthday. I didn't get the presents I was expecting that year. My parents, two brothers and their families are still involved. All our experiences are different obviously, but I left because I had come to major philosophical and theological differences in my belief system. I am agnostic now and had become one shortly before leaving. For me this was not the most radical thing about my leaving. For me it was thinking that by leaving, my family may never speak with me again. At the time it seemed like a very real possibility. There was also the control factor, the attempts of meddling in my life. The confrontations and prying didn't seem worth it anymore if I no longer believed the same things. There were definitely things wrong in my life, but a lot of it stemmed from living a lie and the rest from the legalism of the Way. So I left. Thankfully, the uncomfortableness with my family didn't last forever. There is still the unspoken subject of my exit and it sort if looms overhead at times, but for the most part we are getting along well now. My relationship with my older brother is better than it has been in a long time. Wow, what a way to put it. It is definitely how I felt at times when I left. In this case of leaving the Way, though, the abandonment is really a two way street. When we leave we think we know that they don't want anything to do with us. Rightfully so, too, if you have been around long enough to have heard teaching after teaching and rant after rant about "copouts." Hopefully, though, the family bond is a little stronger. "Spirit is thicker than blood," was a crock of sh!t. I realise that not every family is like mine and perhaps it won't end up that you are all happily together again, but I am saying don't forget your part in the whole thing. Don't abandon them. Let that guilt lay on their heads in it comes to that. (I am assuming you are still in twi...it sounds like it.) Although, that doesn't mean it has to be that way from the start. I told no one (that was in) my reasons for leaving and it took time to get back to some sense of normalcy with my family. It was good that way. I needed to get away from the Way and they were a part of that. It was very helpful to have had a network of "unbelieving" or non-Way friends and family when I left. My best friends from college were there for me and were supportive as was the small group of friends I had made through swing dancing, one of which I later married. Coming here helped immensely as well. The GSC has served as a sounding board and spring board to help me formulate more clearly what I believe and enlightened me to the rest of the crap that was going on, as well as new ideas and POV's and it continues to. Everyone here has always been supportive, even when the discussions in the doctrinal basement get rather heated it has still helped me learn new things about others and myself. (sometimes I go on and on, sorry) Lol, the more you are away from the Way, the more you realise it is just this little group that only a fraction of a percent know or care about. You also will realise that mainstream Christianity is a lot different than what we were told it was in TWI. It isn't all that bad, I just don't believe in some of the basics. I can't say that I was denied the freewill in choosing what I wanted to do, but going corps seemed like and I believe was presented as the logical step in your spiritual growth. TWI's class based ministry was designed in a way that in order to grow you had to go. I think that was a WOW slogan at one point, "you must go to grow." My parents were corps (not anymore) and my older brother went into it and it was assumed by most that I would go too. I assumed I would at some point, too. I think the turning point for me was around the time the corps went full time, my parents got put on probation for a while and were dropped from "corps status" (whatever that means), and the local LC's had left their million dollar business behind to become "full time". "Put you hand to the plow and don't look back" was a recent theme at the time and these LCs had taught it many times. Then they left. That made me stop and look at my life a little differently. It made me examine that assumption that I had been making... that I would go corps someday. I realised there was no "calling" for me. Thankfully, my parents raised me to find something I like and do it. They wanted me to keep God first too, but they never pushed the corps on me. I did do many things at the urging of leadingship though. I left a good living situation to go live with a guy that was old enough to be my father and ended up acting that way to a degree. There were a lot of other things as well. When I left it seemed like my younger brother was brought in closer to the "fold" and the local leaders and he was given more responsibility. I think he deals with some of the same things you are talking about here. It is ok to be mad at TWI. They deserve it reallly. I still get mad. I have been over talking with the Way myspacers for a while. I don't get mad over there, but I keep getting accused of being bitter. I'm not bitter. I am very happy with where I am now. I can't regret too much, but I can still get angry. If something is wrong, it is ok to get angry about it. Eccl 7:7 says "surely oppression makes a wise man mad..." so even the Bible says it is ok. We may not be talking about slavery here, but it is oppression and there is a lot wrong with TWI. So, are you thinking or planning on leaving TWI or are you kind of stuck like some here are or have been? Hopefully, some of this helps. What else?

It becomes harder and harder for me to even consider that this whole thing was not deviously planned from the beginning. The foundational teachings on private interpretation, the fall of man, law of believing and others were all used to discourage questioning and considering anything else. To further this there were statements like this one of "you can't go farther than what you are taught" and one used a lot in the ninties and probably still today "don't reinvent the wheel." In other words, don't go re-researching our foundational TRUTHS, we already did that for you. Just think of all the bruises we would have on our bums if people like Robert Thompson and John Dunlop had listened to the naysayers saying "don't reinvent the wheel." They forever changed the wheel by making inflatable tires, improving both comfort and saftey. I thank them from the bottom of my bottom. TWI on the other hand....a major pain the arse.

Yeah, I remember that teaching on "old cow skins." Actually, I was taught/told that I should always be presentable while in my own home, just in case someone decided to drop by unannounced. Didn't remember that one until I read this. I guess they were fashion police. They were a little obsessive over their dress code protical. I wonder who came up with those FABULOUS ideas. Ssssssseriously! I hear that casually nice is the new black!

Brilliant! I love it. That is exactly what I was thinking. The machines are sweet. I want one for my house. I would second what Mstar said. I may not be ready to host it myself, but I can put the word out. I think something like this would easily find a home in a town like mine where people have bumper stickers that say, "Keep Boulder Weird." Not that it is weird but you know... we can be a little "unique" around here. Shoot 30 minutes away, this weekend, will be the annual "Frozen Dead Guy Parade." Anyways, I dig the concept and will put the word out to some galleries and funky local shops I know.

Hey we share a birthday. Far out. Hope you had a good one. Happy birthday.

Nicely put. It is not a global truth for sure. Although, I do believe positive thinking helps everyone to some degree, if nothing other than a better outlook on life, even if it is the positive thoughts of "we will find food for dinner tonight." It is better IMO to die having tried and hoped for something better than dying having lived a miserable unsatisfied life. I does need to be tempered with a dose of reality and common sense of course. That being said, there is some truth to this concept. I think the basic idea is that you deside to strive for something you want achieve and you don't let anyone including yourself talk you out of it. In order to do that you have to think positively and continue to press forward. Although, with everything there is a cost. Not everyone can be Oprah and given the opportunity to become her not everyone would be willing to make the sacrifices that it takes, including a personal life, a family life and other potentially important things. I think most very successful people have given up certain things that many of us normal folk cherish, like a healthy family and social life. Of course, IMO many people in our culture aren't willing to give up things like American Idol in order to read something that will help their business life or give up Starbucks in order to have more money to get out of debt, or giving up driving a few blocks instead of walking or riding a bike in order to get some excersize or save gas and polute less and etc etc. I am guilty of some of this petty stuff myself at times. Anyways, I think this secret thing is more about taking what would have been called "believing action" and not just positive thinking. I don't think that is a terrible thing. Decide to do something and do it. Genius!

I think I'm with Rainbowgirl. I'm either an idealistic realist or a realistic idealist. Maybe I'm realdealistic.

Thanks guys. Most of the fun birthday type stuff happened over the weekend. Tonight it was a nice dinner and soon will come the Ladyhopper's apple crisp dessert type thing. My favorite. This year makes it 32 or one day older than yesterday. For some reason it is a bigger year than 30 was for me. A lot of new things happening I guess. Hap, I hope you used that two dollar bill shortfuse was sending wisely! Thanks again.

I the last area I was in there was a very disabled woman who had been in twi for a long time. She was a very sweet woman and I can only imagine what went on inside her in light of the Law of Believing teaching. My step dad got a cronic disease in the middle of his life and I know he is still believing for deliverance. He has dealt with this teaching as well. Mrs. Weirwille even prayed for him. He asked one of our LC what was up. Why wasn't he being healed? This is a corps grad (my stepdad) and a very positive believing type of guy. The LC told him that in order for deliverances like his and like the other lady I mentioned above to happen, the collective believing of the whole ministry had to kick it up a few notches. It was our fault, I guess. How exactly do you believe more if you already don't have any doubts concerning God's ability to heal? How does that jive with Matthew 21:22 and the way they taught the "say unto this mountain" teaching a dozen other verses they use for the Law of Believing. Is diabetes more of a job for God than moving a mountain into the sea? It doesn't jive with their Acts teachings either. It was only the second section of Acts that the lame man was healed. Yet somehow we were in the Pomised Land of the Prevailing Word. None of it makes any sense at all. How sad.

Well, that is certainly part of the equation. There were plenty of people that saw clearly that something was not right and left quickly or dropped out of the FC etc. The other half of the equation, though, is a man that started a ministry in a deceiving way and coupled teachings together in a way that discouraged doubt and questioning, took advantage of many women, and in many ways controled with fear while teaching it was wrong. As far as the first school of thought, IMO, in light of the things I mentioned above it becomes harder and harder to accept it. Although, there may be some merit to the teaching, it is based on something that is fundamentally wrong, that being that doubt, worry, and fear are intrinsically wrong. Of course, I am agnostic, but I feel that when you are considering something that a man claims to be the rightly divided word of truth concerning God, those should be three things that can be apart of a healthy concern that should be part of the process of prooving it. Not to make light of your fear of Komodo Dragons but the way you put it made me laugh. I guess saying that mine are irrational helps me deal with them. Stastically speaking I should be more concerned about driving a car or even flying than being attacked by a mountain lion, but not so.

Kieth I don't think phobia is what VPW was thinking of at all. He used Job as the basis for this teaching. "The thing which I greatly feared has come upon me and that which I was afraid of has come unto me." He was not talking about an irrational phobia. Loosing members of our family, our possessions, and our accomplishments is a real possibility. Many times it can be beyond our control (natural disasters, random acts of violnce, etc.). In the context of Job, what T&O said and what VPW taught make sense. Job's GREAT fear of loosing his family was apparently something that distracted him from God. The problem is that Wierwille made this a law. Any fear, any doubt, any worry, was wrong, was negative believing. It was used as a mechanism for control. Don't question, don't doubt, don't worry, these are fear based, only trust in what TWI says God says. Period. We were first taught this in the FC in the context of "private interpretation" and "the fall of man." Accepting those teachings put us in a position of not questioning what we were taught and not considering other views, other doctrine. What TWI taught, what VPW taught, was not private interpretation it was THE rightly divided Word and we were not to consider anything else or doubt it etc. Further if we didn't accept and act on what was taught (as being the God breated Word) it was because of fear. Once we were taught it we were expected to believe it unequivically and act on it. TWI taught fear as an "attack of the adversary." That's the rub, that's the control. Fear can be good. It can make you alert and circumspect. That is something we need to be in order to not be tricked or taken advantage of by people or circumstances. It can be something that gives us a shot of adrenaline to survive tough times and conditions or to succeed when competing or when our life is threatened. On the other hand, anything that keeps us from accomplishing the things we want, whether it is something you think God wants for you or something you want for yourself, is a bad thing. It is not neccessarily something that we need to ignore but something we need to deal with and overcome. If that is a fear or a phobia, then we need to deal with it. I have irrational fears or phobias of things like sharks and mountain lions. In the ocean, I don't like the fact that I know there are tons of things living down below me that I can't see. I don't live someplace where I can go to the ocean, but I have still kayaked in the ocean and in brackish water (where many sharks feed). I don't let it affect me too much, even though we saw a shark the last time I went tandom with my wife, and it BUMPED US! Mountain lions are a reality around here in the mountains, and they have been known to attack people on rare occassions. I still hike in the mountains, but you can be damn sure I am always alert and safe, especially when with my boys. For me it is something about the lack of control- knowing things may be out there stalking me but without seeing it or knowing it and there most likely being little I could do if I was attacked. I have stress dreams about it sometimes, but I don't let that stop me. :)

I am also partially a vegitarian. The other part of me, though, is a total carnivore. I respect what Mark is doing. Although, I am sure he is aware that it seems many people participate in Lent in a very superficial way. That is just silliness, IMO. A time of honest introspection and living without certain frivolous toys and excesses is a good thing. I should probably do it regularly.

You know Rottie, there was all this hub-bub over this Mystery thing on Oprah that I decided to watch it. I wasn't all that impressed but one thing on forgiveness did click for me. You know the old saying "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Isn't that a good thing? In that show one of the people talked about getting to a place were you realise what you have learned from bad situtations and bad things people did to you, to the end that those events don't have control over you in some way, is the point in which you can forgive. At that point, you can say to that person (in your own head if you like) "thank you for helping me learn ________", "thank you for making me stronger in __________ area of my life....but you no longer have a hold on me." It helps us realise what we have learned, what we have gained (even if we have lost a lot), and why we are now better off....while at the same time not letting go of accountability, not letting them off the hook, but not holding the hook either. I liked that. It makes sense to me and helped me realise why I have been able to move on....becuase I have always had that mind set (what doesn't kill you...) for the most part. I guess the hard part of that is realising what we have learned and gained from the most horrific trauma or something much less, and coming to accept that and moving on with that new knowledge and strength in a better way instead of allowing it to hold us back.

Yeah, that definition was pretty goofy. If God can only speak to spirit then why was your spirit so much more special? It could speak to you and to God and hear from both. It also brings up the interesting dynamic of SIT as perfect prayer, where God tells his spirit in you to tell you what to tell him, all the while you have no idea what you are saying. I believe there are plenty of places in the Bible where God speaks or communicates with "unbelievers." Eyes... I don't mean to offend, but this works the same for me with many other topics. For example, something scientific that I don't understand but think about from time to time. One day something may happen and it helps me understand what I was thinking about. It just seems to be how the brain works. Perhaps the spirit is a little more integrated in your being and not something "seperate" as Wierwille's definition seems to imply. He used to say "God's hands behind your hands, God's behind behind your behind..." or something like that. Martindale used to describe it as a well tailored shirt. Why behind? Why on you like a shirt? Why sperate from you? What does it mean for the spirit to be IN you? Is it something that you contain or something that is as much you as you?

What an interesting concept. You know when you give blood, you replenish your body with more blood. When you recieve blood (from someone else) it eventually gets broken down and YOU make more YOU blood. Of course the blood you recieved was in no way characteristically someone elses blood, specifically (as stated before...no DNA), unless that is, their soul was in it somewhere. So this gets interesting. If you give blood and therefore part of you soul, are you missing some of it until your body replenishes it? When the blood you gave is used and is broken down in someone else's body, is the soul broken down too? If not where does it go? Is part of their soul forever in your tissues or something? So if I keep giving blood does that mean I have more and more soul (just in different people's bodies)? Whoa! Maybe this is how James Brown did it. The man had a lot of soul. "Uuuh! Gotta brand new bag. (of blood) Hit me!"

Boy, the more I read on these things the more I realise how backwards modern Christianity is. We take the most recent translations of the Bible and we squeeze as much sense out of it as we can, pasteurize it, can it, and label it "NOW 99.9999% God Breathed!" Then, since we have THE truth, we work backwards, the best we can, to take history and myth and fact and mounds of other texts and documents and anything that sounds similar and try to connect at least one dot to our latest concept and ignore the rest, or worse label the rest as lies. Another way we could do this would be to look as far back as possilble and work forward. Look at the Judean concept of Satan. Look at the other influences on Isreal over time and the religions and idea of those cultures and then look back at Judean writing around that time and perhaps correlate the ideas and how they changed. Look at the veiw of what Satan was before and after Babylonian rule, before and after Zoroastrian influence, before and after Hellenistic influence, before and after Roman influence, etc. see the interaction of ideas and schools of thought. Then get the bigger picture. (Of course, some ARE doing this.) But no, we must read THE one true book because it claims to be THE one true book and says that it is THE one true way and THE one true view and we have THE one true can-O-truth and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. To even consider thinking anything contrary brings us one step closer to spontanious combustion! Good luck with that.