WhiteDove

Actually I see no evidence to support fading away, but in fact to the contrary even on eBay the demand for books is high all these years later, even so much that independent book dealers have noticed the buck to be made and have joined in the sale. While the ceiling has dropped on some basic items the market is still quite high on others. That appears to be thriving. Secondarily I'd submit that the microscopic percent here that are disappointed in the product are by no means a scale to use for what is fading or thriving. I think you will find that most offshoots where the majority of those familiar with the books are, continue in some form to use the books for reference regardless if they agree with all. or part. That accounts for several thousand people as opposed to the 100 or so who post here on a regular basis. Based on that factual evidence as opposed to personal opinion I'd submit thriving is the correct term. P.S. Edited to say And I'll add the demand for the books is at a point (due to supply not being available or inflated) that a black market disk with them all scanned in on PDF files has surfaced in recent years for new students to use.

And the same would be true for the vice versa Yes ? But it never seems to work that way. When faced with hard evidence and no explanation for it ,the weasel is to bring up the tired old argument that he said and meant different things. That supposedly dismisses why the print des not line up with the claim. If that in fact is true as suggested then establishing a pattern of behavior is certainly credible in evaluating any words that individual says. If someone is consistently misleading as some assert then it is logical to consider that in evaluating ones words. It's common place to build a profile based on past performance. Given the general argument that what was said was not what was meant, or done, it certainly should not be surprising in the case of we and us. Unless of course one would like to recant the former argument leaving no pattern to consider.

Mike will forever be notably weak, and can never exceed vpw's skils. vpw himself claimed the oldest texts were Aramaic. This is especially peculiar, since the more evidence is uncovered, the more this is shown to contradict all the archeology, all the discovered texts, manuscripts, and so on. vpw parroted George Lamsa on the subject. Lamsa is the one who pushed the "Aramaic first" position. This was advantageous to Lamsa, as he put forth he was THE Aramaic expert, which would make himself THE Bible expert. For Lamsa, I think this was a deliberate attempt to inflate his own importance. vpw was NEVER a good researcher. His "best work" was photocopies of the work of others, and often the deeper things showed a lack of understanding of what he was copying. (That's why his definition of "word of knowledge" is INCORRECT, despite being derived from Leonard's definition, which IS correct.) So, when Lamsa made a convincing-sounding case for Aramaic, vpw lifted Lamsa's claims entirely. If vpw had done his own research, he would have seen that his own claims of the earliest texts being from the FOURTH century were off by at least 200 years, as was known at least 20 years before he put this error in writing. See, in Bullinger's time, (a century ago), such a claim would fly. The last century, however, has seen many new manuscripts come to light, and the dates of the earliest texts now can reach VERY far back, compared to what was available before then. So, I think it was LAZINESS and BAD RESEARCH. His area of study was NOT Bible languages, Koine Greek, Hebrew. His area of study was NOT Bible History-archeology, and so on. Those require a lot of study and significant amounts of memorization. He wasn't "hot" in those areas, either-as real students of them can easily point out. Even the passing mention of "earliest texts" in the Orange Book fail to mention documents found in the early 1950s-and the copyright is early 1970s. I know they didn't have the internet, but he kept getting all those magazines that kept going in the trash-and THEY would have mentioned that was NEWS. His area of study was "Homiletics", which, IMHO, is the EASIEST/ "softest" option to take in a Bible college. As it is, a diligent student AT THE TIME VPW WAS STUDYING could know better than that. Since then, the information is at the fingertips of anyone who can go to a decent library, or search the internet. I'm confident nearly any of you, with enough patience, (and many of you quickly) could find enough information just on the internet to completely discredit Mike's claims here- Mike's claims of "extreme variance" of manuscripts, texts or both, Mike's claim (vpw's claim) of only post 4th century being preserved. As to Mike's claim that what the originals said are "a sense-knowledge guess", Mike himself (as has been pointed out a number of times) rejects the word of vpw on that one. vpw said WE could do it. Did vpw really mean WE could do it, not "HE" could do it? vpw said "WE" in that passage FIVE TIMES. That's what vpw said A LOT. Is that what vpw meant? Does anyone besides Mike think vpw could keep saying "WE" all the time and mean "ME" each time? Well it does seem to be a popular opinion here at least when someone documents a fact that doesn't fit with the mission or invalidates a claim. It's common to hear at that point, well what VP said and what was meant were two different things. I guess now that it does not fit with the mission here you want us to believe the opposite. By GreaseSpot standards yes when he said WE he must have meant ME, cause we all know what he said and what he meant or did were never the same. Or does that only apply when it works in your favor?

If he stole their works word for word then the sophmoric writing style would not be VP's as he stole the style word for word Yes?

I learned that there will always be a small percentage of people that will be unhappy with any product.

So if VP literally stole the works of other people word for word and taught them , then you must think that their teachings (Bullinger,Welch,Leonard ect. were sophmoric?

Indeed Mike is correct, his title of PFAL Master is not in jeopardy today..... Also Tape #214 was recorded 10/17/65 according to the tape logs and it does cover the incident in question it also covers some info on Roselyn Rinker. There are also transcripts of the PFAL Class and the AC as well by the way, whoever asked? Of course I wouldn't know where to find them

Now see this is a good example of a substancial cost that should never have been left to a group of people working part time to pay. Food and drink for several weeks can add up fast compared to the cost of other things, say like a stamp. Good point potato

Yep I paid $1.35 today But I gotta know Northern Neighbor when you said "not that I'm complaining" did you say that because Very few of us here are writers by profession, trained to use their words in a precise and unambiguous manner. We write things that sometimes aren't clear, then go back and clarify. Were you having a clarity moment and really meant you were complainng?

......Certainly implies that the stamp was a hardship especially when you parallel it with I had to buy a stamp , and Most of us hardly had enough money to buy lunch. and 'That is not an insignificant to a person who is struggling [/b]to put food on the table, it certainly implies that the stamp was the problem that kept them struggling to have food on the table. I'd say it was a fair statement that struggling to put food on the table or worrying about having money to buy lunch, was misery. You may not think so. call it what you want ,it certainly is not bliss. The cost was not insignificant ,those are not my words I think there is a direct correlation between the two statements 'That is not insignificant/ to a person who is struggling [/b]to put food on the table, If it was not the cost of the mailing what was? Clearly they linked the cost and putting food on the table ,if one is struggling to do that it certainly is in the realm of a good chance one may miss a meal at some point.

Have you ever noticed that I document my memory with Official policy something that you seem fond of invoking but never providing. What you have before you was documented facts they are pretty self explanitory I'd say. Again policy says and I quote" but there aren't many Twigs that are really operating the principle to the extent that they could or should be operating it. This segment of leadership in the Twig should be to the Twig what the Board of Trustees is to the Root. It should be the real nucleus of decision making leadership for that Twig." What I suggested was that clearly authority was given, in (official policy even[) not from memory, and for whatever reason you decided, you simply decided not to exercise it. You've been given it, but you failed to use it. Only you can explain why you chose to do that and why a ten cent stamp caused you such missery

Really.... what part of but there aren't many Twigs that are really operating the principle to the extent that they could or should be operating it. This segment of leadership in the Twig should be to the Twig what the Board of Trustees is to the Root. It should be the real nucleus of decision making leadership for that Twig. don't you understand? ....should be to the Twig what the Board of Trustees is to the root. that means it functions in like manner trustees make decisions on financial matters , Twigs make decisions on financial matters. The same.... By the way got anything besides you memory to document your case? I thought so.....

Since your looking at the context lets look at the word you highlighted ..... Cooperation  –noun 1. an act or instance of working or acting together for a common purpose or benefit; joint action. Working in a common goal for instance ,the speaking of the scriptures ,or the common goal of The Way, WOW does not mean that every detail of that goal will be performed the same by each person. there is lots of room for diversity. I bet Paul self governed differently than James, or John yet they had the same goal at times. Speaking of "official policy" Here is a Quote...... What we are endeavoring to do is simply the principle that is laid out in the Way Tree syllabus Each unit is composed of a ruling Elder, a Secretary, Treasurer and Deacons as the need arises. Many Twigs have these "Titles" with mundane assignments, but there aren't many Twigs that are really operating the principle to the extent that they could or should be operating it. This segment of leadership in the Twig should be to the Twig what the Board of Trustees is to the Root. It should be the real nucleus of decision making leadership for that Twig. (*Twig Leadership Training) Sounds like self governing to me....... Sounds like making decisions to me ,like say for instance buying stamps I bet the board of trustees made the decision that stamps were business expenses. Actually now that I think about it I may have understated it, not only is it clear we have been given the authority to make those decisions, but it was a gentle reproof that we had "mundane assignments" and were not utilizing that authority that we had been given.

AAAAH if it was not about the stamp then why bring it up? Apperantly it had some purpose. And then proceeding to justify it with some cost of living analysis. only after that failed then it became not about the stamp. By the way ....You need to read what is written what I said was I never said that what you or anyone else heard was wrong, nor that what I did was either, what I said was I'm not sure that at one time that we were not told it was ok to take the cost out of the ABS. I think I was, but since I was not sure ,I stated it as not sure which is correct. Good advise perhaps you will follow it ,don't tell me what I heard or didn't either.

Exactly...........

I faced that same struggle, I don't know it never seemed to be such a problem, I spent more on coffee , sounds like more of scraping the bottom of the barrel to dig up something to complain about to me......... But if it was such a big deal that it sent you into financial ruin. I think there were solutions...... for instance I opened a free checking account, banks give those to community groups especially then. I sent a check from that account with the fellowship name that way it was not claimable on my income. In some 18 years I never heard one word from INT. most of the money was undesignated cash but if someone wanted the credit the blue form accompanied it. As for the stamp all of eight to ten cents, you could have taken it from your ABS or even from the collection. we always seemed to have change rattling around somewhere. I'd say that was a legitimate cost of doing business. Gosh if you were that desperate you could have cashed in a few pop bottles....... I'd be more concerned why as little as $2.80 had such a impact on your financial life. I find it interesting that you gave 10% of the income you are lamenting about ,yet your complaint is about pennies. It doesnt add up if you were in such a financial state it seems to me that the 10% was the bigger problem of the two. And yet you are justifing the cost of a stamp.

Speaking of The Oak Ridge Boys I must say I was impressed with them at the meet and greet they did for us at the gallery last week. They went table to table and shook everyone's hand took pictures and signed memorabilia. They made sure not one fan was missed. they were so busy with the fans that they did not have time to eat dinner. so we loaded it on the bus to eat on the way to the concert. It is a rarity in the music business to take time hours before a concert, unpaid ,to spend time with your fans.

Really? are we lamenting over the price of a stamp in the 70's what was it six or eight cents? :blink:

Union Sundown Bob Dylan Well, my shoes, they come from Singapore, My flashlight's from Taiwan, My tablecloth's from Malaysia, My belt buckle's from the Amazon. You know, this shirt I wear comes from the Philippines And the car I drive is a Chevrolet, It was put together down in Argentina By a guy makin' thirty cents a day. Well, it's sundown on the union And what's made in the U.S.A. Sure was a good idea 'Til greed got in the way. Well, this silk dress is from Hong Kong And the pearls are from Japan. Well, the dog collar's from India And the flower pot's from Pakistan. All the furniture, it says "Made in Brazil" Where a woman, she slaved for sure Bringin' home thirty cents a day to a family of twelve, You know, that's a lot of money to her. Well, it's sundown on the union And what's made in the U.S.A. Sure was a good idea 'Til greed got in the way. Well, you know, lots of people complainin' that there is no work. I say, "Why you say that for When nothin' you got is U.S.-made?" They don't make nothin' here no more, You know, capitalism is above the law. It say, "It don't count 'less it sells." When it costs too much to build it at home You just build it cheaper someplace else. Well, it's sundown on the union And what's made in the U.S.A. Sure was a good idea 'Til greed got in the way. Well, the job that you used to have, They gave it to somebody down in El Salvador. The unions are big business, friend, And they're goin' out like a dinosaur. They used to grow food in Kansas Now they want to grow it on the moon and eat it raw. I can see the day coming when even your home garden Is gonna be against the law. Well, it's sundown on the union And what's made in the U.S.A. Sure was a good idea 'Til greed got in the way. Democracy don't rule the world, You'd better get that in your head. This world is ruled by violence But I guess that's better left unsaid. From Broadway to the Milky Way, That's a lot of territory indeed And a man's gonna do what he has to do When he's got a hungry mouth to feed. Well, it's sundown on the union And what's made in the U.S.A. Sure was a good idea 'Til greed got in the way.

If you have an animal shelter in your area you might check to see if they have Christmas dinner for the animals sometimes a company will donate hamburger and tuna for the cats and dogs. They always need extra hands that day and the pay is great, lots of kisses and love. Sometmes seeing how little they have and how thankful they are for it is a good lesson in tough times. Here they do it the weekend before the holiday and if you bring a toy, an old towel,or a item from their wish list you get a burger meal as well. It is a huge fundraising day and a special day for all the animals.

One can only hope so.... I doubt that when they call them "door busters" they really thought that people were that stupid.

I did not know Annely as well as you I'm sure ,our exchange was fairly brief, but I did always look her up when I was at Int. I thought the same of her. I did a search for her she is still in St Marys/New Knoxville she is 70 now.

The heartland share program here is a pretty good program, I volunteer to stuff boxes sometimes. They ask that you volunteer for 2 hours per month per share on that program and the $16.00, somewhere of your choice it could be helping a neighbor or working at a charity I like that part as it gets people to help others while they are being helped.

No it was not and when the Ohio Credit Union Board pointed that out to them they changed their tune real fast. It's sad really I worked with Annely Skapura when I donated some teller units to the credit union from our bank when we remodeled.

At this point it is useless, but it was at one time functioning as a financial business. I had a checking account there for several years but it was not functional for day to day drive up to the teller business so I used it more of a savings account for upcoming household expenses. Some things about the CU After the 87 exodus for a long time I did find that they would ship bookstore orders written on CU checks when they would not sell to those who had left, but eventually they did start checking . Eventually they started pushing everyone out that was no longer fellowshipping with the Way ( which by the way is illegal) but they started adding fees (depending on who you were) for non monthly use of the account, and minimum transactions fees if you did not use so many transactions per month until they drained the balances out or just generally made bookkeeping hell until you closed it out. They also used to CU to dig for dirt on members that had left (also highly illegal) under the guise of their right to maintain financial information. They funneled it to limb leaders things like where you wrote checks to and if you were in any financial trouble. They tried to close out my account for years because they also figured out that if you were a member that means they had to let you on their grounds to do business and there was nothing that they could do about it. They sent a check for the balance several times trying to close it out I reported them to the Ohio Credit Union Board for not doing the legal steps to close an account, having worked in the banking industry I was aware of those. They had no reason ,I was a member in good standing and did not request the account closed they just kept blaming it on clerical errors when the CU Board would ask and reopened it.