Ham

Compliment? Wal*er C*mm*ns did a FAR better job than loy could possibly ever achieve in his wildest dreams.."doc" shoulda kicked loy in the a**. Compliment??? ptooie.. Is it possible.. the guy , for the life of himself, couldn't find ANYTHING "doc" had to say WORTH WRITING DOWN?? Naw, that couldn't be it.. And.. it was.. I bet.. RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE CORPS. So much for handling things privately.. next day, I bet every stinkin corps showed up with a half a dozen packs of paper and two dozen pens.. Why loy? You reemed the guy.. why don't you go get him yourself? More posturing I guess.. so much for being a "man of the people".. One thing I can say.. loy proved himself as the ultimate lackey for the presiding mog.. and ran to do his bidding.. Now vic is supposedly some kind of "savior", trying to pull the guy out of the fire.. I wouldn't believe this crap again, for another minute.. "I will MAGNANIMOUSLY, because of the GREATNESS of I, give YOU, you lowly less than a bug, one more chance.." Crap..I think you'd be better off shot.. Sounds like some politicians.. MAKE the problem, and then boast you have the one unique solution to it all..

Perhaps they coexist. It was the tree of knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL, after all. ONE tree, TWO "fruit". And you can't gague one, without some sense of the other. Enlightenment in my opinion is a two-edged sword..

Groucho.. I never saw that.. not that I'm doubting you. I thought I filled in some blue forms in the early nineties.. and can't remember anything like that.. was this incorporated for just a few years? What I DO remember.. they DID NOT LIKE money coming in anonomously.. I never saw any forms that the branch guy had to fill out.. sure there was a lot more there.. loy sounds like he turned into Stalin.. carefully measuring who may or may not be a "threat".. Then came the purges..

Maybe we could schedule an official unofficial Greasespot "clergy meeting". There's always the next weenie roast.. hmmm. I will warn my "brethren"- do NOT drink more than one glass of the Elderberry wine..

Frank, I think it was the same for most of us.. at least from what I read here. Something of a real drastic nature was required before they lost their grip on us.. after a while, all the little compromises seem to finally add up.

Another little point, or opinion: I think loyster got the cart before the horse.. That kind of argument can make ANYTHING right, including rape, pilfering and murder.. I think the carnality of OUR actions.. truly highlighted our mindset. We were suckers. We were set up for a fall.. the arrogance.. that I could SIT, do all nine all the time, and similar attitudes.. "oh, we're soooo spiritual".. and a lot of us just signed away our loyalty without a second thought.. to a half wit from a dimwit organization.. ptooie. For what? How far did this loyalty take people? From what I see: Those who refused.. came out with SOMETHING.. including a conscience.. Those who signed.. and are STILL "signed", came out of it financially, morally and spiritually bankrupt. I did not "sign" literally.. but in my heart. Fortunately, I am now only in ONE of the categories above..

I wish he (they) lived up to this noble comment..They didn't even correct this one admitted error. Sorry, twigs here got NOTHING, for DECADES. Nothing.. from the few that departed.. other than a few "fits" and apparent madness.. "they are POSSESSED, they are worshiping other gods.." I didn't even have the chance to hear even this much. People probably thought they went off the deep end.. Can't say with certainty.. but if somebody calmly and logically.. just sat down and told me what was going on.. perhaps things would have been different, for me. At least the ball would then be in my court. But nooooo, they were sworn practically to secrecy.. only within the last three years do I find out why things were as screwed up as they were. "They" are still living up to the SAME reputation. The followers know little.. unless they so bold as to deal with "the devil" and get on the internet.. Its been the same for YEARS, and YEARS.. Gotta be kidding.. They pulled in the "welcome mat".. Let's say I wrote a nice, loving fifteen page letter, about stuff I wouldn't know about for decades.. It would take a nice long trip. From the bot, to the region guy, to the limb guy, and they would then have scheduled a nice little "meeting" for me to attend.. would have looked like the Spanish Inquisition. Maybe its good it didn't happen.. I may have not been able to handle it at the time.. I wouldn't have known what hit me.. Other sincere people that tried to communicate.. NEVER GOT AN AUDIENCE. Look at Igotout's experience.. only thing they wanted him to do was come back to the farm for a little "regrooving".. thank God he didn't go.. Oldies, it should be rather telling.. even back in the good old days, a lot of those in the know were too tired and beat down to even care what the problems were anymore..

Gads.. Goey, I did sit and listen to that little tirade.. scary.. I there is a hell.. that'd be it.. loy forced to sit and listen to his crap for a long, long time..

What's he gonna do with it? I thought Marvin was a vegetarian..

Just another thought.. ever consider that perhaps the charge was true? Don't take it personally.. this comment paints ME the same color.. Sure.. I'm of Paul, you're of apollos.. "I stand with the MOG of MOGS.. the loyster.." I really thought it was the right thing to do at the time. We were ALL carnal, well at least the majority of us... in my opinion.

I bet he BELIEVED that little statement. Along with all the others.. including the one that would only tell me: "you have NO IDEA what went on.." and that was IT. Sure helped me a lot.. "duh, well, they aren't spurtul or mature enough for the 'truth'" So darn afraid that I'd be "offended" or leave that hole not believing there is a God or something.. can't blame em.. they were only doing what they were taught..

I don't know Galen.. but at last, I can look any vey clergy in the eye and say: "I am not inferior to you" :D

Well.. barring accidents and miracles.. my opinion: Ten years is not nearly enough time to change a man's true character. True.. he was more vile, more abusive, more of a womanizer and rapist as he went on.. I think we may be splitting hairs here.. trying to define where it all started. Personally, I think he had the same character for those ten "long" years, only he just happened to get more brazen and careless..

Just one more point.. BOTH of my WOW brothers went in the corps.. and we were as close as a group of folks could get prior to this. They told me.. nothing. Period.. Even those who left.. for YEARS would not tell me anything.. Probably under threat of expulsion, death or worse..

Simple answer.. their honest, sincere, loving lives would be used to bring even more innocent God seeking people into that pile of dung.. I don't know where you were Oldies.. but these people saw loyster for what he was.. all the way through his years of insanity, vileness and abuse.. from my perspective, I stayed because this crap was carefully covered up.. I knew someone who left.. and the only thing they said was, "you have NO IDEA what happened in those meetings.." and that was ALL they would say.. no more.. and I haven't heard from them now, for over fifteen years.. at the time, they sounded like lunatics to me. Many tried to function in a godly manner, IN SPITE OF who was in charge..

Just a point of contrast: Oh yes.. OF COURSE. Yep. Of course.

RISE AND EXPANSION???? Something born of such a simple mind.. and vic never documented it?I would say he was too doggone lazy to look it up.. I thought the "research team" was developed to rubber stamp even the most inane stuff to come off the old man's desk.. What a waste of some of the minds that were put in research.. jeeze. loy sure abandoned that strategy in fairly short order.. To witness???!! Lessee.. the ole codger.. claiming he had a pilot.. "HIS pilot".. and he'd FIRE him.. OMG. "witnessing".. ptooie. I would think perhaps he just may have been trying to "impress" the lady.. but that is only my opinion.. For crying out loud.. you'd think that they would know how to string chairs by this time.. good grief.. teaches.. by EXAMPLE?? I question whether he had the time or inclination to get off his rear, and put all the stinking chairs where he thought they should be..

"Reverand Ham" has joined the discussion. Please, don't stand.. I'd feel sick.. Darn. Can't have everything I guess..

Perhaps they witnessed first-hand what happened to those who did.. But.. I still think the loyalty oath was asking far too much, especially compared with the loyalty these poor staffers enjoyed from headquarters.. Look how they were rewarded nine years later: Financial cutbacks No cable TV.. well, I could live fine without it.. Staffers now have to move to slums.. der veq claims they can't afford the rent anymore.. No pregnancies No "serious pets" Less expensive meals for staffers.. hope they liked macaroni and cheese three times a day.. Some "loyalty".. all while the ministry was ROLLING in cashola.. Where was the loyalty, and loving support for those who "labor in the word and doctrine" then? I think loyalty perhaps is a fine and noble concept.. just it really oughta go both ways..

Perhaps you could label that as a carnal request.. I would label it more as an immature one.. spiritually and emotionally, immature.. and in this, I have not been entirely faultless in my life, either. Religion sure sucks.. I know what it did to me.. can't imagine what it did to loy.. if he ever wakes up, I hope he lives through it.

I dunno.. I didn't really see it like he ASKED for another chance to "prove" himself.. more like.. he DEMANDED it. "In the name of the love of God, you MUST stand with me.." My opinion.. true love can't demand or expect respect, or reciprocation.. even from your own family.

Well.. thanks. I didn't drink TOO much, heh heh. Only a few..

Yep David, the "big 5-0".. heh heh. And somebody just HAS to keep reminding me.. :D It really isn't all that bad..

Thank you friends.. yes, it has been a very very nice day.. and I value the friendships I have developed here. I hope I have been able to bring a little light to this place. I spent some time with one of my daughters this evening.. that made the day all worthwhile too.

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.. lets see..WE (well, at least a lot of us..) are REQUIRED and OWE HIM the respect due only to the Almighty.. and loy- well, he owes US- nothing. Nope. Stand with ME, or else.. Doesn't sound very "mutual" to me. When people withheld ABS because of his lack of love, respect, and intelligence.. he went berserk- calling them every nasty word in the book.. "How DARE YOU!!!!!" Well, some dared.. :D I would like clarification. How in the world would you put your spouse above God? Perhaps it would entail: not accepting your new corps assignment to Timbuctu, and instead listening to their loving pleas for stability for the family.. Perhaps instead of spending so much time, money and resources on a stinking ministry, you take said person out on a nice quiet vacation somewhere.. don't "need" a vacation, when you have "twig", I guess. Naw, we wanna serve God, do we not.. I really think this kind of example is what loy had in mind..