outofdafog

Merry Merry Christmas to all............love foggie, Kate and Shelby I got my best present Saturday morning.........my oldest Kate home for the holidays from Chicago........ of course she has assumed the position on the couch with the remote, but I still get to look at her

cman - I truly respect your journey.......peace to you too

Phewww..........for a minute I thought this was the AA thread. I swear I had gone to the CES thread. cman - lighten up on the alcohol a little dude......this thread is not the place for it........a lecture on the evils of it.......I have seen this with people who see the light with AA.........don't read the evils of alcohol into everything.........the only thing worse than a born again non-smoker is a born again non-drinker.........I respect your journey for you.......... Back to our scheduled thread.........shoot I forgot what I was going to say.........

1. My Dad 2. Apostle Dr. Wierrwille 3. My Best Friend 4. God Well at least you put your dad before Apos....Ap....stle....apos Dr..Wier...er uh....I am sorry I just can't bring myself to even write that, nevertheless, you put your dad before him, but gosh, I noticed that God is at the bottom........... ck - you make me laugh, keep on posting, its priceless..............the levity helps keep a balance for folks when there is so much going on in some of the more really serious threads....hahaha thanks for the laugh break..........

By the way, does anyone here want some orange juice? Only if it comes with vodka..............

Yes the prophetic has been abused, yes people have been hurt, and yes it probably went on to long. Well heck, yeah, darn.......... the prophetic has been abused, yes people have been hurt, dang it those dang followers always messing up our ministry by getting hurt- if they would just follow our counsel and leadership like the sheep they are, just keep sending the money and yeah don't forget to buy my new book, life is messy you know......, big deal.........and yes it probably went on too long..........yeah probably I guess Goodness - open your spiritual ears and hear what and how you are saying these things......it sounds to me like the people that follow this ministry are pretty expendable. Just kinda blowing it off. We are, in many of your eyes, in a lose-lose situation. Actually you are in a win/win situation now if you allow God to open the eyes of your understanding, and walk away and read your bible and help others less fortunate than you. Go to a homelss shelter and serve christmas dinner. Learn some humility.

George - words fail me right now - I have always made sure that when I came here I followed your postings.........this saddens me so........your words are always so strong and wise........as they are now. I always enjoy your posts in the politics forum. Peace to you and your family and know that I am thinking of you and please feel free to contact me if you just want to yak about anything..... Much love.....foggie

I don't care if they ever come here and try to explain. How do you ever justify this type of hookie-pookism (I still like that word haha) and claim to still have a sound mind? Other than to fall on your knees before God and beg his forgiveness. This really is between them and God............ My main concern is for the people whose hearts once again have been left in the wreckage. Fool me once, SHAME on you, fool me TWICE shame on me............but I don't intend to shame them, I hope that some of my words can help and heal. Facing the reality is the hardest part, and thank God GSC is here for them. I think this just might "establish" things for people regarding these cults and mind control methods. That Jesus Christ is the only one between them and God. And his love is beyond our wildest expectations. We don't have to go through another man. His love and grace are sufficient. I have not ever come to GSC to "gawk or to gossip" so please speak for youself...........not for me........and don't ever forget where you came from and the path that led you here.................

Sunesis - that is why I have reacted so strongly in this thread I guess.........My heart is just broken for this woman and I think she is just totally brave putting it all out there................I also thought and for lack of a better term "this prophecy council" sounded very devilish.........evil...........good lord, spiders coming out of peoples noses now....how could there be so much darkness in a place that claims they have such light..........and enlightenment.

Excellent post Trust/Obey

Sounding the alarm is not being judgemental. Yea -- I am saddened by those who have never had anything to do with CES, making comments detrimental to the heart of those who started it. A person does not have to have been a part of something to see that it is detrimental to the heart of those who are followers. Those who give their trust and love to these "overseers" once again to be taken on some bizarre ride. If I see a child run into the road and a car is coming, I don't have to have "experienced being hit by a car" before I run out and try to get the child out of harms way. I know if the child gets hit, he will most likely get hurt or even die. That is just common sense. If you've never heard BB King play, but are a fan of the blues -- (please) don't offer a commentary on his rendition thereof. Same thing -- you know not whereof you speak. People know scriptures from the same bible that they are teaching from, therefore that does qualify them to comment. In addition, it was brought out here on an open forum so I believe that makes it an open disscusion. I for one am glad this came out in the open, as I had no idea about it. And yes -- I can do without all the *snide* comments about CES, and the cheap comparisions made to twi. I am also glad this came out in the open as I am sure many followers had no idea about it. This is the problem with any group who has 3 or 4 peple who make the decisions for everyone. That letter from Elizabeth was certainly an eye opener. That was some of the most loving, godly reproof that I have ever heard. My concern is for the people and their hearts. This woman, Elizabeth, is really slicing it right. As far as the "cheap comparisons made to TWI, I am not sure you can't compare them considering all of our pasts. Again, if your experiences have been great with a group, then GREAT, but that doesn't necessarily make it true for others.

I think there are significant differences between TWI and CES/STF or Craig and John Lynn. Are they perfect no yet they expect perfection in their disciples But have you ever heard anything good about Craig Martindale? His jokes weren't even good. John's jokes were good so that made him a better leader? And TWI had an agenda of greed for a long time before Schoenheit accidently blew the doors off with a simple word study on adultery. CES has had good roots. Sure they started out trying to keep the good from TWI, but they did grow past that, as we each did. So this gives them a pass to tear this woman's life (Elizabeth) and her heart apart? I notice I haven't heard the phrase "Way Brain" in a long time. We all have grown. Perhaps now it is CES brain. I have seen some awesome teachings from Schoenheit and because I have had personal contact with him, I am sure his humility is not an act. I have heard teachings that I thought were awesome from Loy and have had some personal contact with him and he sure seemed humble to me. Likewise I have been sure of John Lynn's motives in the past. As sure as you were of the motives of the BOD in TWI, you must have been at one time or you wouldn't have stayed. John Lynn and John Schoenheit founded CES, Graeser was grafted in later, if I remember correctly. Then his wife wanted more input. Then they got their kids on the bandwagon and poof, they are in control. Hmm. Little by little, inch by inch John Lynn lost CES. I think that is what Elizabeth tried to say in her letter to him. Most ministries/churches put out a good spin as much as they can. I believe all of them have baggage and skeletons because they are made up of people. How CES/STF Board members handle this mess will determine their reputation for me. If they rise to the occasion, I won't lump them with others dead to me now because of broken promises. Because those that would consider themselves leaders have an implied promise to those they claim to serve. Just as TWI leaders had an implied promise to those they claim to serve.

Time will tell: how much more time of your life are you willing to give over to this hookie-pookism......John Lynn has apparently become nothing more than what he professed to expose in the hierarchy of TWI.....show me what is different.......this has to be similar to the kinds of things that went on in the higher echelon of TWI that us peons were blissfully unaware of.......does this ring a bell for anyone??

Yeah Jeff, that is what the TWIts have been hearing for a few years now........good Lord, this isn't just the slow cooking of error, the god dang stove is on fire................. Good god people.... if it looks like a cult..... and it acts like a cult...... and it quacks and sounds like a cult..... CHANCES ARE.......IT'S A CULT!!!!!

Cool Waters. It seems to me that you have concluded that CES has ignored Jesus. Sounds to me like that was a good conclusion.......I am thinking Karen Anne has taken the place of the absent Christ at this point......... Johnny Lingo - anybody can talk the talk, I think we all learned that at one time or another don't you..........you know, the reason we are all here.............

Exactly shaz.........thanks for putting it into better words than I......... Why not just hang at each other's houses and have some hot bible and visit and help each other etc etc. People really don't seem to get out of the "box" that TWI had them in in the first place, they just went to a different box. Really, not here to judge, I just love to see deliverance in peoples lives, not sorrow, guilt, disappointment, pain etc. caused by the over inflated ego of others.

I would be absolutely shocked that anyone who ever had anything to do with TWI, would continue to stay in CES after hearing this. I could understand it if you were not aware of this going on, but now that it has been made public, come on, this is crazy stuff. I mean there was some over the top stuff at TWI, but this crap is just down right spooky. Gosh when will people ever learn that Jesus Christ was our intercessor and that we do not need to follow another man.............. I am really shocked that John Lynn would buy into this and the Momentum thing, especially when he seemed so right on about leaving TWI. How did it come to this??

Thank you all for your insights...........I guess what really gets me is that my brother and them are like all this friendly friendly crap to each other and I am just sitting there, like what in the world is going on. Actually I was quite shocked when some jealousy pangs went through my heart (where did that come from) and who was I jealous of. I guess I was just really suprised at my own reaction 6 years later. When I saw them that night I had just finished a catering and was sitting at a table alone waiting for brother to pay me, and it would have been quite easy for one of them (the former HFC or his wife) to come over and initiate something. Yes, like an apology.......... My brother just kinda blows it off, apparently they are regulars there now, because he always thought the mark and avoid junk was just so stupid, but I guess when you are emotionally invested into something, your reaction will be a little different. The real funny part is that I have no desire whatsoever to even engage them in conversation (an apology might be nice) nor do I have any desire to build any type of relationship with them. So why are my feelings so mixed up? Lotsa good insight here............

In the alcoholic thread I explained how I was marked and avoided by having my brother living with me and refusing to kick him out........well this same brother of mine has been the general manager of a restaurant here in town and completely sober for six years now. My daughter works there (the 17 year old one). The other night she came home and told me that our former HFC's (they are still active) were in the restaurant and were so absolutely glad to see her and talked to her for about 10-15 minutes, inquiring as to what I was up to and what my oldest daughter was doing. It has been six years now. I was proud of my daughter because she did treat them with respect (more than they ever did to me or my girls.....of course I have always taught my daughters they don't have to agree with adults, but they should show respect). I do property management full time, but sometimes I help my brother on the catering side of his restaurant in the evenings or on the weekend. Well imagine my suprise after catering last night when I walked in the restaurant and their whole family was there and another couple. A couple years ago, I was in his restaurant and he (the HFC) came in for an early breakfast and he talked to me and seemed real happy to see me. But I never tried to pursue anything after with them. Just a short conversation at 6 am that morning. Flash ahead to now, and it seems they often come into the restaurant. That is what my brother told me and they are very very friendly to him. So when I walked in last night, he said to me, hey look who is over there. I had already seen him (former HFC) almost right away. He gave me a big smile and acknowledged me. I smiled and waved back kinda half heartedly. My brother asked me if I was going to go over and talk to them. I said, "I don't think so, remember I am marked and avoided" (sarcastically of course). He said well hell I am too but they are always really nice when they come in here. I am glad that they are good to him. Well I didn't go over to their table, I guess because I feel they owe me an apology if they want me to just go over there and chat with no explanation of why they did what they did to me and my two children and how they treated us. Especially my two girls at the time (we live in a small town and you run into people if you know what I mean) They made sure to go out of their way to avoid my children in the past few years. Nobody has said that in all these conversations. So am I being really like bad because honestly my feelings are still really hurt over how I was treated? Does that mean that I haven't gotten over it? I am human and have feelings (way more than I ever had in TWI). I probably should have taken the high road, but it all seemed to come back to me in such vivid emotion. They were supposed to be the people that loved me the most and they dropped me like a bad blind date. Wonder if they would still want to talk to me if I told them my daughter was gay.....................................

so....what is your point frickinfrack ?

cman - your posts are very enlightening i guess my problem is similar to what the wikipedia states about the "dry drunk"....... Dry drunk is a term used, often disparagingly, by members of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and by substance abuse counselors who subscribe to the AA theory of alcoholism to describe the recovering alcoholic who is no longer drinking but whose thought processes are considered to continue to be distorted by the thought patterns of addiction. This is what I meant by the constant confession of "hi my name is cman, and I am an alcoholic." In no way shape or form am I judging you or anyone else who has chosen AA. I admire you for doing what is right for you. I understand much of what you are saying because I have heard it from my brother many times. I d believe AA saved his life. I have dealt with alcoholism since I was a young girl. My father was a "functional" alcoholic. My brother was unable to function from his addiction. My oldest brother drinks wine constantly, but he is not really an alcoholic. In order to be an alcoholic, you must drink beer like my father did. He is kidding himself. My sister is the kind who calls you in the middle of the night and cries when she is drunk. She is the current born-again non-smoker in our family. In our family, because my father was an alcoholic, if a person takes a drink, they now are an alcoholic, according to my siblings. Within the past year, my brother also came across this way and it turned me off. He constantly judges now, others who are on the alcohol and drugs. I wrote him a nice long letter explaining to him not to forget where he came from. Recently, I asked my husband to move out because he is a "functioning alcoholic" (somewhere I heard this term and it just made so much sense to me). He has to drink anywhere between a 12 pack and an 18 pack every night, seven days a week..........he holds a full time job down and doesn't drink when working, but every night, he has to have his beer. This is difficult because it has been going on for so long, but when the beer money becomes more important than anything else, then I think we have a problem...... I am only trying to understand this disorder (I prefer that term over disease). I think the word disease often connotes that we are unable to be in control. That this disease overtakes us and we use that as an excuse if and when we might fall off the wagon. Just trying to understand............. P.S. Hey excie, love ya,

"As long as it fills your thoughts as much as it is you must you battle it. that is not recovery. it is a steel grip on surviving one more day without drinking." "I think there is a a lot of truth in that, and I don't mean that in a hard-hearted way in the least. I think AA is great for getting a leg up on the problem. I applaud the program for giving people that opportunity and the AA members for facing their problem via AA. But it can become (note, I don't say it always or even usually does) simply a new addiction. I've seen it in friends and family members. After many years, they're obsessed with drinking. They're obsessed with AA. They think their poo doesn't stink and that anyone else who has a couple drinks is an alcoholic. They can become extremely judgmental. I'm sure clay won't fit into that category, but I have seen it." I tend to understand exactly what these two poster are trying to express. The reason I was marked and avoid by the ministry was that I had my alcoholic/drug addict brother living with me. I took him after I found him one night depressed, suicidal, and drunk in a flea-bag hotel, just lost his manager job because of his depression. This was about his fifth time of "falling off the wagon" and about the fifth time that I had taken him in and taken care of him. He had been to AA meetings for at least 2 decades and here he was once again. But nonetheless, he was my brother and I loved him and I was going to do whatever it took. Years ago, he had taken the original PFAL class (one of the times I was trying to save him from himself). When I told the HFC about the fact he took the class back in the early 80's, he encouraged me to bring him to fellowship. He came a couple of times and then they wanted him to take the new WAP class but he wouldn't. As long as he was attending fellowship, it was okay that he lived with me. Once he made a final decision not to take the class, they had a meeting with me and confronted me and told me that if I continued to let him live with me than I was "off the word". I chose my brother over the ministry. From that night on I was marked and avoid. At the same token, I often felt that my brother used the AA program as a crutch itself. I am not here judging or condemning because I truly understand that my brother had a true addiction to alcohol and cocain. His nose still bleeds to this day from the frequent snorting over the course of 20 years. But you know, during my time in TWI it was always, "confession of belief, yields receipt of confession". That is what I believe pond and Linda Z are trying to say. Say you are sober for 15 years, yet you still have to go to AA and confess that you are an alcoholic. The fight to stay sober is a constant reminder of your alcoholism. You are never truly delivered. At some point if it is truly of God, shouldn't you be delivered?? At least according to my thinking because of the exposure to the ministry beliefs. Then a person goes to the meeting and all they do is drink one cup of coffee after another, and chain smoke. The addiction is still there, only instead of alcohol it is coffee and cigarettes. Addiction is addiction. In addition, there is nothing worse than a "born again" non-drinker, non-smoker". I have both in my family. My brother has been now 6 years sober, but I really think that he could fall off the wagon any day when the pressures of life become to overwhelming to him. I really think to this day, had I chosen TWI over my brother he would have died somewhere. He needed love and support and over a 20 year period I could have given up on him, but somewhere deep down in my heart I knew the kind of great guy he was without the alcohol and drug medication.

I did hear from VPW that there was nothing wrong with AA - at some meeting or other...........

I might be giving away my age here hahaha, but does anybody remember their mom buying Breeze. My mom bought it and every week she got a bath towel or wash cloth or hand towel in the box. That is how we had enough towels etc for nine of us in the family.

Welcome motherof2: don't worry about posting in the right or wrong forum right now (the moderators will help sort that out for you) they will move the thread if necessary.........do watch out for the grammar cops and paragraph police though LOL