TheInvisibleDan

No need to apologize nor ask for forgiveness, really. I now recognize that my original comment was rather weak in several respects, I must confess. For one, I don't think Jesus would ever sue anyone let alone judge anyone, at least according to my admittedly romantized Marcionite background. And - judging churches as a whole is a rather thoughtless and poor approach - because all churches comprise of the good, the bad (and the ugly). I think there are genuine kind people in the most rotten of groups. You were instinctively right to point out to one fallacy among many in my inconsiderate expression. And I thank you, really. Welcome to Greasespot, Gilligan. I like your posts. Danny

Which was precisely why I wrote "a great number of churches" - not all of them.

Ah, second shift is like a whole different world by itself. I like it. I can stay up as late as I want - sleep as late as I want - and still get to work on time! :)

Quite possibly a great number of churches today for "defamation of character".

I think it's quite possible. Life after death, that is. It's hard for me to believe we didn't exist in some form prior to our excursion in this realm. Were we ever actually in a state of nothingness?

Interesting passage in Hebrews, in that the writer addressing the notion of Jesus having the nature of angels must have been prompted by reason of contemporaries who held precisely such a belief.

Why do the righteous flee?

Between “Swingers” and “Spankings” I feel as if I must lead a very boring life. Aren’t “Swingers” also known to attire themselves in wide-collared polyester suits with medallions and loud sunglasses? Or am I confusing these for “the Jet Set”?

Never have I heardeth such words uttered amongst the children of men. Yea verily, He is the One.

$29 certainly won't come anywhere near covering the lawyers' fees. :)

Hi Sir Guess, Yes, the material of the Dead Sea Scrolls and certain of the writings grouped among the Jewish Pseudopigrapha go a long way toward expanding our understanding beyond the "flattened" depictions of Judaism(s). Merkabah Mysticism (as represented through expressions encountered in "The Testament of Job", and reports concerning the Essenes) especially comes to mind, where interestingly enough, speaking in "tongues" was a ritual in effect prior to "Acts" and Paul's writings. Danny

For half the Christians during the second century, it was Jehovah, the god of the Old Testament, who was the main "adversary" to the new God introduced by Jesus Christ in the New Testament. "Satan" or "the Devil" was regarded nothing more than a mere "bucket boy" for the hot-tempered tribal deity, which carried out exactly as he was told. Now that's a good, juicy "conspiracy" theory I could get behind (lol). That's more like it... :)

I opt for neither Trinitarian or Unitarian formulations holding exclusive monopoly over what perspective(s) Christians are -or are not - “suppose” to hold . I usually find such a debate to be one heck of a poor starting point for jumping into a historical, theological controversy, when one doesn’t proceed earlier past the third/fourth centuries to explore the various elements contributing to the development of notions that became later debated. The Unitarian position would have it that the development of ideas concerning Jesus followed a pattern of deification, from a man to a God, resulting in the Trinitarian creeds. To complicate matters further, is the fact that the multiple movements comprising early Christianity during the opening decades of the second century did not all share the same ideas. Some did not even draw a distinction between God and Jesus, such as we encounter in such phrases as “In the name of the Christ-God” or “our Lord and God Jesus” (cf. the openings to the shorter versions of those epistles attributed to St. Ignatius). Christians in the area of Pontus were observed during their ceremonies at dawn as having worshiped and offered hymns to Christ “as a God”. And then we have one the earliest Gospels (upon which our canonical “Luke” is built) opening up with Jesus as a God or Angel descending from heaven All this during the opening decades of the second century. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian movements held that Jesus was actually an angelic being, whose presence on earth did not begin in a cave nor a manger – but as an Angel descended directly out of heaven “in the form of a man”. Other movements held that it was the “Christ” spirit which entered into the “human” Jesus upon his baptism, and later abandoned the human Jesus while he was dying on the cross ( the Acts of John preserves this unusual notion). I can appreciate what the later creedal setters were trying to accomplish – to get all these dverse, motley movements on the same page. To standardize the ideas and the various writings into one. While such attempts have their advantages, they unfortunately also have their drawbacks. I encourage people on either side of this debate go further back, to exploring the rough-about-the-edges, messy and even weird “raw material” that circulated throughout Christian movements before much of it became standardized and homogenized and canonized and bastardized and Simonized and ossified and any other thing that could occur to a religion in the course of several centuries. The writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Nag Hammadi Library (to name a few sources) provide fertile ground for personal exploration and contemplation. Danny

Words in brackets and italics indicate material that has been supplied - Translator . The Lost Fourth Epistle of Yokhanan to the Cethians Peace and Mercy to chiefly to the Jews, and then to the Gentiles, and lastly, the Church of God from our God and Father and the son of man, to all them residing in the village of [CESaria?] How I long to pour forth my bowels upon you once again, that our innards might rejoice in the unity, mercy and righteousness of our Creator and his Firstborn Offspring, who is before all. I have great sorrow in mine heart! How I hurt. I lie not! I suppose God hath appointed us Board Members last, and we are now become as an off-scouring to the world, a spectacle on the internet, to both Angels and to men. I knew a certain woman (whether in body or out of body I do not know) such a one who was caught away into the Swamp of God, and saw visions of hairy eight-legged creatures blowing fiery [...?] through their noses not so much permitted a man to describe. Of such I cannot speak ( God knoweth, what do I know?). And I knew a certain person (whether in body or out of body I do not know) such a one who was snatched away into the sixth heaven, and uttered hidden things to the Sons of the heavenly Council (of what such these things mean I know not really– what do I know? she knoweth! She spaketh them).[…] [ page missing]an[d] we drove out the wicked from amongst us. And lest I be exalted by the abundance of the visions given unto me, there came a stick pricking into mine eye -- - the shining archon of Net sent to buffet me. And I besought the lord sixteen times that this might be taken away. And the lord saith “Thine package is sufficient for thee.” To any[one] who addeth or taketh [away] [a letter] from [this] epistle, let him be [ac]cursed! Again , if you or anyone else – man or angel - reading this on some forum changes [any of] the content in my package --curses unto you! Agap, Yokhanan the Divine So ends the Lost Fourth Epistle of St. Yohanan the Divine. Fragment of the Lost Epistle of Markellus bar Gar’ya-zor to the Assembly of the Kephians […] All those in India[na] have turned against me…only Yokhana the Stone is with me. It has been commonly reported that evil gossipers […….] though they came out of us they were not of us. Their bellies [...] upon the earth […] If it were possible, I would tear out mine own (eye)balls and hand them to you, and with tears would cry for you day and night. BEHOLD WHAT LARGE FONTS I USE, TO SIGNIFY THAT IT IS TRULY ME MARKELLUS BAR GAR’YA-ZOR WRITING TO YOU, TO GIVE YOU COMPLET[ELY] [COMPLETE(?)] SURETY THAT MY WORDS ARE [AS FIRM AS(?)] [A BOX OF] JELLO […] [ several pages of manuscript illegible, until the few lines - translator]. Geoff the silversmith has commited much evil against me, as has Yokhanan bar Eunuch and Dani' El bar Ga-li-kar. May God recompense them for their evil deeds. Dispatch Helen the Prophetess bring the cloak and the books as I hath requested [...] only she hath been a comfort to me. So ends the Epistle of Markellus bar Gar’ya-zor to the Assembly of the Kephians.

Ah, thanks for correcting me on the name of that country, Tom. I apparently confused "Belize" with the name of the late author of "The Bermuda Triangle", Charles Berlitz , which, interestingly enough, features a picture of the writer on the back cover wearing scuba gear. Perhaps Berlitz was scuba diving at Belize when he came up with the idea for his book, even though it's not anywhere near the "Triangle"... though "Belize" certainly does appear to be a vortex where international copyrights mysteriously disappear. Coincidence? I wonder.... Danny

It might not be an ideal point anytime soon to cash in those "cult stocks", Tom, perchance the USA invades Berlitz and takes out those loophole publishing houses that were ( or still are?) offering the old gigantic cult stuff on Ebay. Danny

(lol!) You haven't bought that many theological books, have you? It's not unusual to see various works going upward from $100- $250 and even higher, depending on the subject and/or rarity of the work. $29 is nothing for a theological work. In fact, it may turn out to be a small investment. For example, an English translation of Harnack's "Marcion" that went for $30 back in 1990 is now selling for as high as $250. A copy of "Power for Abundant Living" for which I paid 30 cents for at a yard sale sold on Ebay three years ago for $35 (Don't be so quick to toss those old "cult" books). In any event, I agree with Tom's earlier comments - I wish I had a copy of CES' work to bestow to you, for whatever reason you wanted it (for study, for toilet paper, whatever - that's your business) but alas I sold my copy on Ebay awhile back. Of course another good alternative to purchasing a book would be to simply search the online library catalogues and borrow a copy from your local library via interlibrary loan. But hopefully someone here will spare you those steps and give you a copy. Good luck. Danny

I didn't catch the cult specials last night, but I did find myself particularly irritated with a "Bible Codes" program the "History Channel" ran yesterday afternoon, which was the usual tired mix of archival footage of Hitler, Osama, and various other newsreels accompanied by unsubstantiated claims that the Bible when "decoded" foretold this and that and the other thing. Throughout all this, no explanations or documentation provided as to how these code scholars arrived to such things, outside of flashing the words "Hitler", "Osama" and "Nuclear Holocaust" on the screen amidst the baseless ramblings. I can only conclude that this program amounted to nothing more than an elaborate infomercial thinly disguised as a "documentary", to sell the books by hacks to whom the Bible is nothing more than a crossword puzzle. The only thing remotely "historical"" in the program was the archival footage used. I used to like the "History Channel", but their standards for what comprises actual "history" has become increasingly questionable to me these past few years. Danny

I don't think that's always the case. Obesity may also be a condition due to genetics. Some folks can't help it, no matter what they may or may not believe. Welcome Starbird. Danny

"Hey! Are you guys playing cards?" Welcome Inkjet!

Ah, bongos! We really are going for that weird, twangy retro thing. But I'm sorry, Tom, you've been outsourced - this new digital whatchmacallit even has the bongos built into it. You don't want to hear my old "Dragnet" mix - it literally sounds like something performed by the Manson Family.

Socks, I'de love to hear your arrangement of "The Flintstones" - messing around with the themes to "The Munsters" and "Dragnet" has always been a guilty pleasure of mine (lol). Danny

BTW, a correction to my earlier post - when I mentioned I picked up a new Vox ADVT 30 "Valvomatic" amp I actually meant "Valvotronix" (lol) - can't keep up with these new fangled gear names. It's turning out to a great "combo amp" so far. Love all the "modeling amp" and f/x built in. For a small amp it's plenty loud enough for practicing and recording. Not to mention how nice it is to be able to carry it with one hand. Solid state amps have certainly come a long way. Danny

Waysider, I had tried an Epiphone viola bass at "Guitar Center", which turned out to be the highlight of my recent visit there. They're very interesting looking and sounding guitars. I've been considering the Rogue model (along with an order of Labella or Pyramid flatwound strings). It would be nice to at least have a bass on hand for recording. And I like the idea of a more acoustic bass tone. Danny

After some recent visits to my nearest "Sam Ash" and "Guitar Center" (where I recently acquired a 30 watt Vox "Valvomatic" amp and a compact digital eight track recorder) - I was particularly discouraged over the quality of various high-priced guitars at Guitar Center - their $2000 Gretsch Country Gentleman was an absolute joke- I determined all the more to redo my old homemade electric guitar. I've decided to transform it into a "Les Gretschenbacker". I picked up some new gold hardware including a Bigsby, made a brass control plate, and acquired a new ebony fingerboard for redoing the neck. I've got my work cut out for me in the weeks ahead. :) I'll post some pics when completed. Danny