TheInvisibleDan

So very true when it comes to weighing all information passed down to us. How much of it is true? Or how much of may be ancient propaganda directed against a most serious rival - particularly through the weapons of allegory? for example, Tertullian claimed Marcion seduced a "virgin", - the "virgin" = the church; that Marcion offered n immense monetary gift to the Church at Rome (if such an event actually occurred), with his gift being ultimately rejected along with his heretical teaching- recalling the episode between Simon Magus and Peter in Acts 8. And then there are even stranger legends - that Marcion had once been a scribe for John the Elder (the writer of the Fourth Gospel) - who, as the legend depicts, fired his scribe for having peppered his account with his heresies. Another allegory? Or was Marcion actually a contemporary of the writer of the fourth Gospel? That would place Marcion somewhere in the vicinity of 100 -110 CE, if indeed that's when "John" was written. But why is "Timothy" particularly concerned to go so far as to express this utterance to begin with - "but we know that the Law is good...", in the company of other expressions which most coincidently attack points of the debate distinctly associated with second century Marcionism? It's no fluke that the authorship and authenticity of the "Pastoral Epistles" (1&2 Tim., Titus) have been questioned by scholars for well over the past 200 years. For many reasons set forth in a many critical NT introductions (Beine-Kummel, and more recently Bart Ehrman). If Paul didn't write the Pastorals, who did, and for what reason? Does the style of the Pastorals actually reflect that of the earlier epistles attributed to Paul? There the opening prologues to the Pastorals are enough by themselves to raise red flags. Danny

Marcion may have understood the law far more acutely than has been assumed. Harnack thought that Marcion had himself had been raised in Judaism, and R. Joseph Hoffman in his 1984 thesis brings out further food for thought along these lines. Also consider the fact that there have been many movements under the umbrella term of 'Judaism' (as there are 'Christianity'). I'de be curious as to what movement you suppose may preserve the Torah "the way it was meant to be understood"?

Still in bondage to the "Just God", the lower demiurge. Yep, way to go.

Goey wrote: Those old Wierwillian gangster-isms were really tremendous. (see?) Dat's riiight....

Cool. There's also an informative entry at Wikipedia on the subject of these manuscripts. I was wondering if any variants occurring in those texts are also cited in the Nestle-Aland Greek text (yes, 'P-75'). Danny

Mr.Trust - I'm at work, but here is an excerpt from an earlier post I did awhile back in a thread on tongues on this subject of angels and their connection with spiritual gifts/abilities - E. Earle Evans article, "Spiritual Gifts in the Pauline Community", is most interesting. The late Earnest Martin (of ASK publications) also did a couple of studies devoted to the role angels played with delivering and enacting the law of Moses.

If I may offer my view here: the spirit(s) or spirit beings upon Old Testament prophets (or believers) were angels from Yahweh. These comprised a class of angels - "ministering spirits" (cf. Hebrews ch. 1&2) which enabled their hosts various revelations and powers.

I thought Baldwin's best work was hosting SNL in the early 90s. The show that featured Paul McCartney as the music guest. I wish Baldwin had stuck to comedy. It seems surrealistic to be waging bloody combat against one another over the mindless shenigans of a mediocre, hollywood B actor.

Okay, this has once and for all confirmed the astounding revelation to me -exceedingly above and beyond all that past 'Marxist Minstrel' propaganda that was drummed into us: The Beatles were of God. I still have an old Casiotone which can make those same drum noises. I used to feed it through an old digital delay unit, which provided some interesting f/x. My cheap Casiotone never sounded better. Ah, hints of Rush's "2112" - guitars have been banned in this strange new world. The folks on the stage are certainly waxing old. Where the hell are the kids? Shouldn't these fogies shuffle aside, and let the younger generation to get up there and take their creative turn in the spotlight? They must be garrisoned in the basement, having been sentenced to only making macaroni pictures.

If the fear didn't kill me, the boredom would've. It was time for something different.

Jesus wasn't born in this world at all. At least half the earliest Christians believed that He beamed down to the planet earth, not unlike our modern day myth of Captain Kirk and his landing crew. Though it's too bad Jesus was wearing a red shirt.

I don't quite agree. How "leadership" of even the traditional churches conduct themselves can effect a positive or negative impact upon their congregation. Church scandals have not been limited to cults. Danny

It is a fascinating insight, though I am just as interested in seeing the actual documentation behind such a custom.

He will return in the clouds, a flaming Craig of fire. - 2nd Thessbalonians 2:4

Yeah, I can picture John and Pat cruising down the road in their 70s, guzzler "Pimpmobile", John wearing many rings, dark glasses, velvet cowboy hat and a yellow fur coat, Pat endued as a frilly-girdled saloon madam, cigarette dangling out of her mouth, accompanied by a funky wah-wah soundtrack. Slate that scene for our onging USA channel, made-for-TV movie.

Accompanied by the utterance... "Rosebud...."

Belle I can recommend a couple of my favorites: Claude Debussy, Danses Sacree et Profane, for Chromatic Harp and String Orch., of which you can hear some samples on a compilation available at Amazon. At least that's the version I still have on vinyl. The other piece is far less known, by the American composer Virgil Thomson - Autumn ( Concertino for Harp, Strings & Percussion) . The version I have is an out-of-print EMI cd from 1986, the Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra conducted by Neville Marriner (Anne Stockton, harp). This disc also presents Thomson's other signature Americana pieces "The Plow that Broke the Plains" ( music also featured in the soundtrack of that 80s scary nuke movie, "The Day After") and "The River", but there's little harp in those. Danny

A couple years after I left the grand old cult, I took a razor knife to my old, cheap "Cambridge" wide margin Bible - which was beginning to fall apart anyways - and separated the section of the 4 Gospels (they weren't marked up too much anyways), and glued a new cover to it. So becoming my "Gospel Study Bible", into which margins I glued typewritten notes I had taken from Matthew Black's Aramaic reconstructions. Then I took an old Gideon NT that I paid a dollar for at a used bookstore, and with a bottle of "white-out" retitled the spine "THEORIES OF INTERPOLATION", throughout which text I applied color pencils around various sections corresponding to the different theories of critical scholars I had reviewed -with annotations providing details as to how certain sections might have been originally arranged - and what material comprised interpolations added later. It was fun. Things I used to do before the "computer age"...

I would post this in the Easter "He Is Risen!" thread, but it was Sock's post and most particularly the event of Jesus' resurrection being "where the rubber hits the road" that compels me to pose this hypothetical question: -Hypothetically - to everyone here (pretend we're in an alternate universe) - Had Jesus' resurrection not been part of the Gospel- would anyone here had still followed and lived their lives according to his teachings (e.g. "Sermon on the Mount")? Remove Jesus' resurrection from the scenario -would his sayings and teachings elsewhere be rendered ineffective, powerless and unworthy of bothering oneself with? I think it interesting that there were a few early Christian Gospels which comprised exclusively of his sayings, with the complete absence of any narrative depicting Jesus' story or events.

Yes, what better way to express gratitude for the death and rising of a supposed Jewish Messiah -than by feasting upon the flesh of roasted pig.

When Jesus entered into Capernaum, a certain centurion (whose slave was dear to him) saw him, and entreated him: ‘Lord, my slave lies at home, motionless and on the verge of death.’ And Jesus said ‘I will come and heal him.’ But the Centurion answered, ‘Lord, I am unworthy of you entering beneath my roof; only utter the command, and my boy will be healed.’ When Jesus heard this, he marvelled..” Truly I say to you - not in Israel have I encountered such trust!” And Jesus said to the centurion: ‘Go! As you have trusted, such for you will be done!’ And his [sex] slave was healed that very hour.’ John the Baptist was outraged! When he heard this report in prison, he dispatched two of his disciples to question him: “Are you the one expected to come - or shall we expect another?” -Reconstruction, derived from Q, Marcion, Matt.8:5-13/Luke 7:2; Acts of Pilate ch.8).

"Christ" is God. "Jesus" is Clark Kent.

Who is Jesus? Indeed. The Unitarian position posits that the doctrine of the trinity more or less came about came about through the gradual process that deified Jesus. Drawing from myths floating about at the time. However it might be argued that Wierwille and others who hold a similar position may have it backwards. Jesus began as a God for whom was penned an earthly life and story. Someone living in the vicinity of the late first, early second century was moved to write a new story about a God which descended to the earth and took on the appearance of a man. A God which came down from heaven and personally lived among mankind. But nobody knew his true, secret identity! - none the characters in the narrative at least (except for the demons, which mistook him for a powerful angel of the world ruler ), - Why even the original disciples were clueless to who (and what) He was. Some scholars have suggested the possibility that the Gospels were written long after authentic material attributed to Paul. That these Gospels were an attempt to “flesh out” an earthly life of the vague “Christ” figure described in Paul, of whom readers actually knew very little outside of Paul. He was a stranger. How appropriate that one of the earliest gospels begins in depicting Jesus this way. As “the Stranger” that enters the world and walks among mankind. Now readers had before them an exciting new “prequel” to the mysterious figure of the Pauline material - the Good news of the heavenly God, who shape-shifted into a man, and walked among us, using powers beyond those of mere mortal men to heal, and His wisdom to confound the Wise. Could a process as this - God becoming man - have occurred in such a manner? Perhaps not, but I haven’t had reason to entirely rule it out. I should add that "purists" of the time - those which adhered strictly to the figure of Paul's "Christ" Spirit - did not warm up to this new human "Jesus" in the gospel that came out (and spawned many imitators - just like the market today!) - others successfully resolved this by depicting the Christ Spirit entering into his human Jesus host at the baptism of John. "Jesus" and "Christ" became the biparte being of various gnostic movements. The Acts of John depicts the Christ Spirit departing from the human Jesus hanging on the cross, appearing to his disciple John hiding in a cave ("My Power! My Power! Why have you left me?" - Frag. Gospel of Peter). Or "Eli, Eli" would have worked just as well. Perhaps why Paul (or his editor) admonished "no one who speaks under the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed...and no one is able to say the Lord is Jesus..." (1 Cor.12:3) or perhaps one reason behind John "every spirit which avows Jesus the Christ having come in flesh is of God...every spirit which is not avowing Jesus the Lord... (1 John 4). It's interesting to see both writers (or editors) hung up on the "Jesus is Lord" thing here. A work entitled "Gnosticism in Corinth" considers this material in greater depth than I could even attempt here. Suffice to say, there were some who accepted "Christ" and rejected "Jesus". Very unusual. What brought about this whole controversy? Perhaps the publication of the Gospel depicting Paul's God descending to earth and masquerading as a man. Apparently not everyone accepted it right away at the time. Like the controversies one might observe today among die-hard fans of the old "Battlestar Galactica" series and the new series on Sci-Fi (which BTW, is a very good show!) Now, lest I ramble myself into a van down by the river, I must end here for now.

Which is easier to say? "Rise up and Walk." Go and sin no more.

Welcome to Greasespot, Anothen. Danny