T-Bone

The Penguin Dictionary of Psychology defines "recovery" as generally, the return to or reestablishment of the normal, original state of a person. IMHO recovery for Ex-TWI folks is a return to being a normal person – with the freedom to THINK, EXPRESS EMOTIONS, and CHOOSE a RESPONSE. This "silly" way of thinking you mentioned exemplifies the type of mindset prevalent in TWI – which accepts without question TWI's spin on an issue and what the follower's response should be. This is a great thread - got me thinking about vp's story in PFAL of the pranksters who set the handlebars crooked on someone's bicycle. Ironically, that's just what happens to PFAL students who absorb vp's viewpoint – they acquire a mindset that has a skewed way of perceiving things…makes me think of Chris G33r saying something like we must not only look at the facts – but the truth behind the facts…Don't think the handlebars are straight with that fella. Grease Spot…it's about recovery…and warning - don't let anyone touch your handlebars.

His victims and his lies are still alive…And another thing…A few times Jesus referred to the sins of the deceased – and showed it had bearing on current issues. Very similar to discussions on Grease Spot that reveal vp's real legacy – his moral depravity is alive and well at TWI. Matthew 23:30-32 NIV 30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! Luke 6:22-26 NIV 22 Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. 23 "Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets. 24 "But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. 25 Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep. 26 Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets. Luke 11:47, 48 NIV 47 "Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs.

Thanks, Don't Worry!

Frankly, for someone who rants on another thread about how folks should read what's written – I'm a little disappointed in your response. I made no such statement equating guilt with sorrow. Let me post that again – and maybe I should use a big font [i know you like big fonts ] on a key point of my post: Let me explain certain phrases. "feelings of guilt, shame, remorse, etc." implies I'm talking about MORE than just two things [guilt and sorrow], note especially the abbreviation for "etcetera" – which Merriam-Webster's defines as a number of unspecified additional persons or things. The ONLY connection I made was suggesting they serve the purpose of moving us toward repentance – "…are there for a reason – as something that provides the impetus to repent." On pages 196-198 of More Than Redemption: A Theology of Christian Counseling, Jay Adams talks about the purpose of guilt: "…God made us so that we have a sense of guilt whenever we are guilty of wrongdoing. The conscience [the capacity for self-awareness and self-judgment, leading to self-condemnation or exoneration] in such situations triggers bad feelings in order to warn us that something is wrong and must be dealt with. That is the standard, traditional viewpoint that most Christians have taken of the totality of biblical teaching: A sense of guilt is an alarm and motivating factor to lead us to repentance… …Though at times [of course] guilt is ineffective – the Bible itself teaches that a sense of guilt doesn't always lead to repentance among men – that doesn't mean it is wrong, or even ineffective…God's prophets plead, try to arouse a sense of guilt, etc., but often the people will not heed… …to say that a sense of guilt was not built into man, but came only through parental training…denies the obvious fact that Adam fled, covered up, blamshifted, etc., out of a sense of guilt…When God asks, "Who told you that you were naked?" He refers to the awakening of the sense of guilt that Adam's conscience brought upon him when he sinned. Conscience – the capacity for self-evaluation and self-judgment – had been there from the beginning, but until Adam sinned had always rendered a positive judgment about his actions and attitudes." End of excerpts ~~ I do understand what you were saying about religious folks dumping a guilt trip on someone. I saw that quite a bit in TWI. Odd it was hardly ever over a moral issue. It was usually leadership making folks feel bad because they weren't abundantly sharing enough, complaining about having to quite a job to attend the Rock of Ages and Corps week, not having the believing to put a PFAL class together, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Of course, I could have turned the tables on them and said hey, get off my case I'm going through a "sin boldly phase" right now!

It sounds like you're way ahead of the game already. I think a major weakness "bred" into TWI followers was the tendency to absorb rather than analyze information. It's very subtle – but TWI followers eventually acquire a thing called "learned helplessness." We felt almost duty bound to confer with upper leadership on most things because we doubted our own thinking ability. Most folks relied on upper leadership to do the thinking for them. After I left TWI and went through a crisis of faith – it was through much prayer and reflection that I adopted a two-pronged approach to figuring out where I went wrong. I am a technician by trade – and have an innate desire to analyze the life out of anything! Anyway, I began analyzing both the man [vpw] and the doctrines. This is extremely difficult to do for some people – since the average TWI mindset is all-or-nothing-thinking. But that goes against the biblical directive to prove all things. Something else in regards to critical thinking, I think each person is different in thought patterns and experiences which will have bearing on one's assumptions, perceptions, conclusions, etc. That's why you'll find a wide variety of opinions on vp as well as viewpoints on doctrine. IMHO, there's an aspect of our thought process that works like a two-way street. Beliefs shape perceptions/experiences and perceptions/experiences shape beliefs. To me, critical thinking is NOT the amazing ability to discover truth or reality. It's a keen awareness of that two-way street – and with a humble attitude analyzing in detail those beliefs, perceptions, and experiences – identifying assumptions, biases, issues, faulty logic, relationships, disparities, inconsistencies, etc. It's like going on a hunt – to find the core elements on a given topic and giving it our best THINKING. Enjoy the Grease Spot experience…and happy hunting.

I think the capacity to feel guilty can be a good thing – a necessary feature that God built into this thing called our "conscience." It serves as an internal warning system – that we're drifting off course. Your rhetoric reminds me of a mindset exemplified by vp – by twisting Scripture out of context [like "unto the pure all things are pure"] he promoted a thought process that ignored the conscience and promoted a false sense of superiority – where he could boldly say in front of the Family Corps after showing his favorite porn video, "I've just so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn't bother me." There's a thread that discusses this: TWI's Sedative to the Conscience http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=258084 I think there's two kinds of sorrow – one can have godly sorrow, feeling remorse over doing something that was morally wrong…Then there's the calloused conscience type of sorrow – where the person is sorry only because they got caught. I believe feelings of guilt, shame, remorse, etc. are there for a reason – as something that provides the impetus to repent. II Corinthians 7:8-11 KJV 8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. 9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

That's the assumption my post # 177 was addressing. TWI followers accepted as gospel truth vp's claim that God talked to him. And it was reinforced every time vp would pause for effect while teaching the Corps or an Advanced Class – sometimes mid-sentence and say Father says shut up Wierwille. If you haven't read it already, you ought to check out Word Wolf's thread The Way: Living in Wonderland http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=178369 IMHO, a better biblical comparison with vp would be the Pharisees and Scribes – hypocrites who were often at the receiving end of Jesus' most scathing rebukes, see Matthew 23:1-39 and Luke 11:37-54.

You know, that's an interesting idea…Imagine if the Lord Jesus actually appeared to vp like He did to Saul of Tarsus. An opportune moment would have been in the Motor Coach while vp was preying on some woman. Jesus: "vp, why are you molesting Me." [...edited for television...viewer discretion is advised...]

For the benefit of our viewers at home, we've shipped in two versions of T-Bone - they will respond to Rascal according to their beliefs from different time frames. The first is during his TWI daze. The second response is after he left. TWI T-Bone: Obviously you're being deceived by devil spirits. Remember the integrity of the Word is always at stake. Grease Spot T-Bone: Yeah! Right on, sister!!!!! ...and now a word from one of my former sponsors: Does this mean all those Corps Night notes you sent me are kaka too?

Oh, I see your point. vp CLAIMED God taught him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century....Once we overlook his proficiency at plagiarism and delusions of grandeur – I can see how TWI folks assumed he was a "holy man of God" too.

Happiest of B days to ya!

Have a good one!

Hi Jeff, It's always good to see you at Grease Spot! I like your posts – level-headed, honest, and graceful.

Well, I beg to differ...what a "messenger" does may actually nullify the message: "Actions speak louder than words…" - Mark Twain "Who you are speaks so loudly I cannot hear what you say." - Ralph Waldo Emerson thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that. Mark 7:13 NASB

Once again, I think it's great we at least see eye to eye on vp's character…Perhaps his idea of the four 15s was different than most folks: · Drink 15 ounces of Drambui before breakfast · Watch 15 minute clip of favorite porn video · Take 15 minutes to review new Corps applicants, scan for babes · Find another 15 authors to plagiarize from

Now there's something we can agree upon. "Sin boldly" was probably vic's motto. You know…you bring up a good point…Paul recommended excommunication of the sexually immoral believer in I Corinthians 5 out of concern for the spiritual wellbeing of the church - and of that individual believer too! If you follow up on this incident in II Corinthians – you'll find the sexually immoral person did repent and Paul told the church to accept him back into the fold with open arms.… Now imagine – instead of reproving someone like that – we promote them to be the head of a religious organization…and with a personal mission statement like "sin boldly" I can just imagine the "great example" he'd set for followers under his "teaching ministry." Guess he could have ended his porn video sessions with "go and do thou likewise."

Now if you said He was spitting in your direction you'd have TWI appeal.

Dear Happily Unworried, Thank you for the massive amounts of adulation and various inquiries into that Zionistic victorus bunch – they certainly are a peculiar assortment of duplicitous ratbags of larceny – or as one "tripped out" prophet described them - lying, thieving weasels [LTWs –if you're one of those military types who like acronyms]. As far as the proper use of the revelation malfeasances by the victorus followers, it may come as a shock to some Gnostic Bible students that Herr Dr. Cyclops plagiarized goo gobs of material from the immaterial Swatratra. Originally The New Knoxville Gnostics Study Bible thoroughly [and throughly I might add] documented this multifaceted misappropriation of someone else's ideas in Appendix 198. However, as noted on the title page of The New Knoxville Gnostics Study Bible, this particular appendix had to be removed due to a swelling of the heads of the heads of departments at weaselville. However, if memory serves [after all, the feces for my doctorate was on ancient victorus lore] the proper operation of the revelation malfeasances goes back to the simple wisdom from the lips of victorus "It's just a walk." Which, practically applied means "If the situation isn't going down the way you said it would – you just walk." And it was by adhering to this first principle, that victorus believers found it necessary to follow his next bit of flexible wisdom – "when circumstances change – the revelation may be to change your name." Though much has been written of the doofus' loyalty to victorus, all attest to the fact that he was about as faithful as they come…or more precisely, he came on to the faithful. His meteoric rise to power was eclipsed by his power to rise meteorically. He was a man torn between two careers – theological dancing and professional poon hound. As a sidebar to that, Sir Paul [the melodic prophet of Liverpoolonia] in a fit of personal prophecy aimed squarely at doofus' brow, proclaimed "you may be a lover but you ain't no dancer." And that, I believe, also answers your question about whether or not doofus was the greatest operator in his day – in my humble opinion – he was one smooth operator.

I've been following this thread with interest but haven't had anything to contribute yet. Not that this is anything worth noting now, but I'm always intrigued by the dynamics of a person's belief system. I was re-reading Blaise Pascal's The Art of Persuasion today. A basic point he makes is that people usually arrive at their beliefs – not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive…IMHO there's something to that. Well…what do you expect from someone who reasons from a weird hybrid of faith based/critical thinking process …Just trying to be honest here…I like to think I'm logical about things – but figure a lot of times on philosophical issues, my criteria for acceptable proof is a matter of my own choosing – and that I'm not always aware of the driving force behind my choices.

The New Knoxville Gnostics Study Bible The Skewed Life Translation With Structures, Commentaries, Explanatory notes, Critical Grease Text, Charts, Maps & Bus routes, Cross-references and quadruple cross-references [not to exceed four crucified], Book introductions, Profiles of key players, Time lines, pick-up lines & major whines, Access to Lock Box details, Plagiarized material, Immaterial material, Contributions from degree-mill scholars, 197 Appendixes [one Appendix removed due to swelling], and a Karaoke CD "Sick along The Way" Acts of the Utensils 19:23-28 23 At the same day and time and hour there arose no small stir about the use of a swizzle stick in Drambui. 24 For a certain patriarch had keeled over and Geerroneous, former driver of the royal bus, which made paper shrines to the patriarch, brought no small gain unto the reverends. 25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, "Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth. 26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at New Knoxville, but almost throughout all Internetia, grease spots hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no glass-eyed gods; 27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the Turd over the World Auditorium of the great patriarch Victorus should be despised, and his ineffable effulgence of bedazzlement should be destroyed, whom all WayWorld worshippeth." 28 And when they heard these sayings, and saw the Uzi submachine gun inside his jacket, they were full of hot air, and cried out, saying "I'm a tool for the fool." ~ ~ ~ ~ Notes 23-28 This section is often referred to as "the infamous clergy meeting", but that is the wrong misnomer. It was actually a national emergency sales meeting. 23 swizzle stick in Drambui. Swizzle sticks are used in mixed drinks – but Drambui is a liqueur. Study Bible contributors wish you could read it in the original Grease Text "…there arose no small stir from the use of Drambui." 24 former driver of the royal bus. Italicized words are not in the original Grease Text. Eliminating the word "former" emphasizes the fact that Geerroneous was still a bus driver at heart. 28 Uzi submachine gun. Considering the anti-Semitism of the organization, this is more than likely an interpolation – it was probably a compact semiautomatic pistol.

Whether or not vp repented on his deathbed – only God knows! But by your reference to Paul's life of service – YOU have established what the real issue is – the integrity of someone's ministry. That is the context of my comments. While he was in power, he never changed his ways. Any woman who came forward to accuse him of sexual immorality – he made darn sure she was ousted from TWI…and to cover his tracks she was labeled possessed. And when confronted about adultery by a particular ministry leader, responded by saying I don't participate in such things. How much do YOU really know about vpw? If all you go by is meeting him a couple of times at a function when he had his game face on – you're just accepting a ministry persona. Does the fact that vp used to show a porn video to Corps on a routine basis, say anything about his lack of good moral judgment? What is the practical consequence from "the Teacher" spouting off things like I've just so renewed my mind that I don't think evil watching this porn video or him quoting a verse out of context when molesting women - unto the pure, all things are pure. Yes, let's talk about offences…let's talk about the ways of a "teacher", an unrepentant sinner during his predatory reign, who had no qualms sabotaging the moral compass of his followers. According to Jesus, it's a very serious matter when an offence by someone causes another to stumble: Matthew 18:6, 7 KJV But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Chuck, I think when a person expresses such dissatisfaction with their own shortcomings – it’s a healthy sign – a child of God becoming more aware of their fallen nature and longing for the new world. When you study Paul’s writings it seems like the more he matured in the Christian life, the more he became aware of how great a sinner he was…Just a thought… It’s just my opinion – but I even think it’s kinda normal for folks to go wild after leaving the oppressive legalism of TWI. I’m not one to preach how another should walk. I ain’t perfect…trying to love God and neighbor is a full time project, dontcha know…When it comes to dealing with sin – boy, I could write a few books on the subject – being an expert and all on how to commit it, that is. Yup, know what sin is available, how to commit it, what to do after you’ve committed it. Seriously, though – TWI was weak on dealing with sin. They minimized it to broken fellowship and sabotaged the moral compass of followers by their insidious doctrines…After I left TWI, I’ve experienced a twofold force every time I fall – it’s been my Lord helping me back up and me feeling drawn to my Lord and wanting to get back up. You know, the Lord I believe, help my unbelief thing. Anyway, say on brother. You’re not burning me out. This here’s a great place! Hang out relax – be yourself. Your honesty and humility is a beautiful thing!

I think if vpw were alive today, his response to accusations would be more in line with that Demetrius character in Acts 19….Come to think of it – after reading this account – I imagine that's about what went on at the infamous clergy meeting after Passing of a Patriarch. TWI's idol [vpw] was in jeopardy: Acts 19: 24-28 KJV 24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen; 25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth. 26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands: 27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth. 28 And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians. Truth has a way of getting out. After Passing of a Patriarch – cracks formed in TWI's ironfisted grip on followers. vpw's oppressive lock box mentality began losing its hold. The truth started leaking out about what a sexual predator he was. Let the accusations fly! Proposing to whitewash vpw and his legacy of deception and preying on people is a travesty of justice. Where in the Bible are we told to tolerate hypocrisy, adultery, sexual immorality, lying, or idolatry? To defend, cover up, justify, minimize or rationalize vpw's unconscionable lifestyle is to give Christianity a bad name. Today’s message from the pontiff’s podium is entitled “Because vpw had a seared conscience, you should feel guilty.” …It shows you how much he thought of the conscience – he fried his own a long time ago [force of habit I guess] and assumed the role of issuing dictates to his victim’s conscience with his lock box mentality. What happened here - you keep in a lock box…mum's the word. How ridiculous – to expect folks to forgive an unrepentant sinner! Does God do that? The Bible says He resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. …And besides the pontificating fact that it's none of your business what stirs in the heart of someone offended. Only God knows what's going on in the heart of someone. Maybe they've already forgiven the offending party. It may just be that they're addressing other issues when they bring up something that happened. Ever read I Corinthians 5? The reason Paul brings up the sexual immorality at Corinth was out of concern for the spiritual health of the church. It wasn't deemed a "lock box" issue.

Every time I read about the suicide of Waysider's friend over the unforgivable sin I get sick to my stomach. TWI's screwed up doctrines can have such a horrific impact! May God have mercy on everyone who has spread such crap [myself included during my TWI daze]. Chuck, I think "willful" is a critical point in this issue. In the Matthew account, the unforgivable sin is mentioned right after a notable miracle was done. It was something so undeniably wrought by the Spirit of God [as noted by the crowds reaction in verse 23 and reaffirmed by Jesus' logic in verses 25-27]. Matthew 12:22-32 KJV 22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. 30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. ~~ The MacArthur Study Bible notes of this passage: "…The sin He was confronting was the Pharisees' deliberate rejection of that which they knew to be of God [cf. John 11:48; acts 4:16]. They could not deny the reality of what the Holy Spirit had done through Him, so they attributed to Satan a work that they knew was of God [v.24; Mark 3;22]. Someone never exposed to Christ's divine power and presence might reject Him in ignorance and be forgiven – assuming the unbelief gives way to genuine repentance. Even a Pharisee such as Saul of Tarsus, could be forgiven for speaking against Jesus or persecuting His followers – because his unbelief stemmed from ignorance . But those who know His claims are true and reject Him anyway sin "against the Holy Spirit" – because it is the Holy Spirit who testifies of Christ and makes His truth known to us [John 15:26; 16:14, 15]. No forgiveness was possible for these Pharisees who witnessed His miracles firsthand, knew the truth of His claims, and still blasphemed the Holy Spirit – because they had already rejected the fullest possible revelation…" End of excerpts While in TWI I guess I had some fuzzy idea of the unforgivable sin being the worst sin one could commit – far above murder and adultery. But I think the "unforgivable" term may simply indicate the firm obstinacy of the sinner. For we know that God forgives anyone who is contrite. If someone came to me now, and said I think I've committed the unforgivable sin. I think our discussion would involve the above passage and then perhaps try to ferret out what - if any - undeniable acts of the Holy Spirit this person witnessed and go from there...The fact that this person is concerned that they may have committed the unforgivable sin may be proof enough that they didn't since in Matthew and other related passages it seems the person who commits this sin is oblivious to the act.

Howdy Chuck and welcome to Grease Spot…Some good words here by everyone. I left in 86 and also began questioning everything I was taught. There's a lot of great stuff on this website so I encourage you to search the threads – you'll find a variety of viewpoints on everything. Which is great – shows ya folks are thinking. For what it's worth I've quoted a post of mine below – it's just my opinion. When it comes right down to it – YOU are the only one who can settle the matter for your own piece of mind.