T-Bone

Thanks Polar Bear and A la Prochaine for the Yael Namin clips! Ever since I heard her tune on the Apple commercial [i think? I was so engrossed by her sound that I didn't pay attention to what they were selling ] I've been meaning to get some of her music. Waysider - thanks for the Cold Blood clip. Tonto has a CD of theirs - great sound! It reminds me of Ten Wheel Drive with Genya Ravan.

"truth in the teachings"…like when I heard vp say, Anyone who truly believes Jesus Christ is God is possessed. Care to dissect that one for us?

Have a good one, love Tonto & T-Bone [PS - George maybe you could tell us what's going on in this story - inquiring minds want to know]

Thanks, Waysider - great tune...now you've got me wanting to hear 409 by the Beach Boys.

If I was a member of one of those churches and aware of the low opinion these ministers have of folks who are not into studying – I'd probably balk like a mule too.

Because he was a con man is exactly the point! vp had followers convinced that TWI's agenda was God's agenda… "Good works" as defined by vp: get people signed up for PFAL, abundantly share [give over and above 10 percent of your finances] to TWI…and most importantly, put TWI ahead of your own family, career and personal life! Part of vp's con was getting followers to perpetuate his con.

Would you accept a goat with a sheepskin from a degree-mill?

That reminds me of a true story – my third grade teacher made me write "I should not run in the hall" five hundred times. I used carbon paper for the task. She exposed my technique by the telltale carbon paper blue of the copies [drat! I should have thought of that!]. However, she let me off the hook anyway – I think she was impressed with my resourcefulness. Chatty Kathy, have a happy birthday, love Tonto & T-Bone. Chatty Kathy, have a happy birthday, love Tonto & T-Bone. Chatty Kathy, have a happy birthday, love Tonto & T-Bone. Chatty Kathy, have a happy birthday, love Tonto & T-Bone. Chatty Kathy, have a happy birthday, love Tonto & T-Bone. Chatty Kathy, have a happy birthday, love Tonto & T-Bone. [the complete edition of our 500 birthday greetings for Chatty Kathy will arrive via FedEx mailer]

Actually, I was referring to the mentality behind this post: There's assumptions here that I thought go along the same line of thinking prevalent in TWI leadership – elitism; Leadership by those who are supposedly superior in some way. Elitism is what perpetuates that "learned helplessness" of typical TWI followers. They're encouraged to look to leadership for answers - as if responding to a commercial by the spiritually elite, We're super achievers! You need us to spoon-feed you the Word. It's a system that breeds dependency. And it happens in other groups too. That's one of the reasons I've said on other threads – folks who were involved with TWI really have no business starting their own ministry. Besides regurgitating some of the skewed doctrines of TWI – they often stick with some of the faulty thought processes. So vp was essential to a follower's belief system morphs into now our leadership is essential to a follower's belief system…Usually the elitist gives off an air of superiority, tries to bully people into kowtowing to their way of thinking, and generally comes off as a know-it-all. ...But like I said earlier - maybe it's just me...It's only my opinion...and I could be wrong.

I don't know…maybe it's just me…some of this reminds me of the elitist attitude I saw in the Corps.

There some interesting points in both of these posts…Even after realizing I was deceived by vp – there NEVER was a time afterwards when I doubted the inspiration of the Scriptures. Matter of fact, the more I read the Bible and studied systematic theology, biblical hermeneutics, etc., the more I realized how simple God's message really is. My "crisis of faith" came as a keen awareness of two things: a convoluted paradigm - a twisted theological overlay [the aforementioned PFAL-colored glasses], superimposed on the Bible by vp – AND – of a distant relationship with my Lord…I am happy to report that returning to a simple reading of Scripture has served to close the gap on that relationship! Yeah, obviously my being wary of anyone claiming to hear from God has a lot to do with being hoodwinked for twelve years by vp. What's wrong with that? There's enough passages throughout the Bible that really do put the onus back on anyone wanting to follow the Lord. There's a wealth of wisdom in Proverbs alone – with warnings against being gullible and to develop critical thinking skills. Then there's the clear directives in the New Testament – to prove all things, to scrutinize words, deeds, doctrines, and fruit. Maybe that's one of the reasons why TWI offshoots can be problematic – they're often based on the assumption that a select few are hearing from God – and thusly empowered to pick out the "best stuff" of vp… There's a lot to be said for the simple preaching of the Bible – where the validity of the message is based solely upon the honest use of Scripture AND plain reason rather than the preacher claiming they heard from God. ~~ As I was drafting this post I kept thinking about the last part of my first post: If memory serves me right – I think LCM went on to say as time progressed – this sort of morphed into God showing him directly what to do. I started this thread merely to relate my experiences and observations – which touch upon a myriad of issues, practices and processes. In my opinion, the decision-making process is probably one of the most important issues an ex-TWI follower should address. Here's one thread, Decision-making and the Will of God some may find interesting: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=310314

Cool, Oak! I love their Light as a Feather and Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy albums…well…I’ve got them on CD now.

It's the economy, stupid! Back in the day, a commander-in-chief could get some outside nookie for next to nothing. Nowadays even a governor has to fork over $4,500.

As far as Acts 6, I don't believe the twelve were out of touch with reality or wanting a desk job – I just think they were staying focused on their primary role [alluded to in verse 4…but think about it – they were apostles – that was a HUGE assignment all in itself! You may want to revisit the Apostles, Prophets and prophecy thread, link below ]. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=312563 And while on the subject of apostles – your question of why the apostles hadn't taught Philip some things in Acts 8 – so they had to send in Peter and John. I tend to think it again goes back to this unique role of apostles. II Corinthians 12:12 speaks about the signs of a true apostle. I'm of the opinion that the miraculous signs done by the apostles were for the purpose of authentication – in other words – they were indeed God's messengers [see Acts 2:22, 43; 4:30; 5:12; 14:3]. Of course, I could be wrong – then it goes back to yeah, why didn't they train Philip better? Getting back to Acts 6, I think verses 1-7 is a good example of a wise decision-making process used by all those involved… And while we're talking about decision-making and wondering about how events came about or play out [like the stoning of Stephen] – I think we're all at a loss for really knowing/understanding all the dynamics involved. That is a matter of taking into account God's sovereignty & foreknowledge as well as the freewill decisions of everyone that touches each incident… ...It's something to think about in light of Romans 8:28 [God causing all things to work together for good…] – that through the good and bad times, through the good intentions & decisions of people…in spite of sinful motives & bad decisions – God, as a master conductor, orchestrates everything to work in harmony with His masterpiece. In real time - what we may interpret as one instrument being totally off key, out of sync, or think it doesn't belong there – God may be using that very dissonance to propel His piece into the next passage. I know this orchestrating analogy is hokey – but thinking about Acts 8 and 9 this way – the stoning of Stephen and the conversion of Paul – the two accounts don't appear as disjointed. I'm thinking every detail of Stephen's stoning that Saul witnessed - had a profound effect on his cement encrusted heart – like chisels, chipping away at that hardened layer of Pharisaic theology – preparing the way for Jesus' words to touch his heart. God's sovereignty/man's freewill is an interesting subject all by itself – and a fun one to explore in conjunction with the book of Acts…there's a lively discussion of God's foreknowledge on the What does God know? thread: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=364531

One – run Two – zoo Three – tree Four – door Five – bee hive Six – sticks Seven – heaven Eight – gate Nine – ? Ten – ? Eleven - ? Twelve - ? Thirteen – hurting Fourteen – courting Fifteen - ? Sixteen – Seventeen – leavening Eighteen - ? Nineteen – pining Twenty – horn of plenty? Mstar, I think you're right on 9 through 12. I loved those when we learned them with Bill M@iz3. I liked Bill too. Wow – it's been soooooo long. I seem to recall there was something like 25 or 50 pegs. Maybe, there was 25 and I made up an additional 25 – for extra credit . Thanks, Kit ! Christian Communications was one of my favorite classes in the Corps. "There I was…and the action I'd like you to take is…"

A discussion on another thread got me thinking about my old frame of mind. Also I've been reviewing my Corps journals. It's sort of a weird Quantum Leap experience – to revisit those times – but now, the PFAL-colored glasses are removed. It's a tough thing to accept – that much of my belief system was based on a man called Doctor Wierwille. What a long strange trip it's been…after leaving in 86, unraveling the spider web of a mindset, checking out systematic theology, returning to a Christ-centered faith – I've come to realize it wasn't the content of PFAL that really sold me on the ministry. It was believing vp's claim that God audibly said He'd teach vp "the Word." This was his trump card to validate everything he said or did. It was through this magnificent lie that his plagiarism, eclectic theology, Scripture twisting, and skewed point of view were defined as "making the Word fit like a hand in a glove." This lie was essential to his man-o-god façade. In an ever so subtle way, vp becomes an invisible interpreter for followers. When a PFAL grad reads the Bible [even if they don't have notes from the collaterals written in the margins] through repetitive absorption of vp's material they often experience something like a "pop-up note" in their head – recalling what vp said about the verse. When you say what vp says the Word says you will have power . The assumption that God taught vp "the Word" is at the core of a follower's convictions – and serves as a litmus test for a genuine "believer." You tell me what you think of vp and I'll tell you how far you're going to go spiritually . Another funny twist of a PFAL quote – but true…in a spiritually dark sense. Because the commitment level that vp demanded of followers acts like a vacuum to suck people in to his dazzling delusions of grandeur. Loyalty to vp was synonymous with staying true to "the Word." There was an unspoken rule – you must never teach anything contrary to what vp taught [after all, "What vp taught was The Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word, of course – it was taught to him by God, don't you know"]. And in the later years of my involvement there were phrases like "Remember who taught you the Word!" drummed into my already guilt-ridden heart [over not mastering PFAL by now] to maintain loyalty to him. But by far, the most effective means for strengthening allegiance to vp was the Corps program. We were often challenged to have a 3 minute teaching that we could share at a moment's notice during mealtime. Man oh man, as newbies we were always getting yelled at because we couldn't even get a decent 3 minute teaching together. Except for one guy – who read whole sections out of the Blue Book – vp's The Bible Tells Me So and sprinkled in a few personal comments here and there – yup, he made the Blue Book living and real for us . He was praised repeatedly and referred to as a sterling example of what they're expecting from the rest of us. [hereafter, I may refer to the Blue Book as vp Tells Me So ] Corps Night teachings had the obligatory references to pay homage to vp – When Doctor Wierwille taught this to our Corps he said this about that…This goes along the lines of what Doctor Wierwille taught us in PFAL…When it came time to start on our research paper, LCM said don't try to re-invent the wheel – stick with something from PFAL. Even the decision-making process modeled by leaders was Wierwille-centric. I remember LCM describing in VP and Me, at the early stage of his presidency he'd visualize how vp would handle a situation. I like to shorten that principle to something easier to remember – WWWD – What Would Wierwille Do? Yup…vp was essential to a follower's belief system.

Have a good one!

…and if they're with TWI I can tell you what's NOT in there – money! …and if I was in their shoes that would get me thinking about a couple of other great mysteries of life: "What happened to all the ships and airplanes that disappeared in the Bermuda Triangle? And what happened to the "increases prosperity" deal I heard about in PFAL…I mean I'm doing the principles, I'm abundantly sharing, I'm sponsoring people in the Corps, I'm paying for Sunday Night Teaching Tapes & The Way Mag, I'm paying for classes, classes, and more classes…What's the latitude and longitude of New Knoxville anyway? Is it anywhere close to the Bermuda Triangle?"

Great post Word Wolf! Especially the last part! His ego was his own undoing. Love that, Skyrider!

Yeah – I don't think all the facts are out yet either – but thankfully there's a website like Grease Spot where the TRUTH about vpw and TWI continues to gravitate toward. And I really have to take issue with you on referring to fish stories with 25 years of stretching and wrong interpretations of those "facts" as you put it. So much of what exposes vp for the impostor that he was – is EASILY accessible to anyone with nothing more than a copy of The Way: Living in Love and an analytical mind. Heck, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see through the BS. I had just left TWI and even with a lingering mindset that hampered critical thinking - while reading and checking his claims in the book - I began to notice vp had some real issues with honesty. Case in point is the letter I received from Moody Correspondence in answer to my inquiries -that stated he never completed any courses from them, my post # 500 on The Way: Living in Wonderland thread: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=213920 While we're on the subject - The Way: Living in Wonderland thread is a great exercise in critical thinking and I highly recommend it to anyone who would like a tutorial on analytical thinking. I tend to think if anyone is guilty of stretching fish stories or having a wrong interpretation of the facts – it would be vp. Claiming God told him He'd teach him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century and making it snow is quite a fish story! But maybe vp pawning off plagiarism as the Word that God taught him is more than just a stretching of the fish story – it's more like a wrong interpretation of the facts. Kind of like him claiming he took everything he could from Moody Correspondence. "Somebody has got to be a liar." And you know – it's not like I've brought up anything that happened on a remote island, a long time ago…in a galaxy far, far away...and so maybe you think I don't have all the facts straight…My stuff is written down…They encouraged us to keep a journal while going through the Corps program. Man oh man did I write stuff down! I'm working on "My Story" – don't know if I'll ever post it here – but it's been very therapeutic for me to articulate my experience. I'm up to chapter 5 of "My Story" – my Corps experience…Yecch! I'm reviewing my Corps journals. I can tell you the exact "day and time and hour " when vp showed our Corps the porn video at the pajama party. Wanna hear something really scary? At what point in our Corps training do you think he showed it to us? It's on the third page of my first Corps journal – Tonto and I had only been in residence eleven days! And again, bringing it back to the things I mentioned in post # 906 – I feel it is my Christian responsibility to warn others of the deceitful light that was shed by vp. To me, a telltale sign that something is amiss with the way that some so strongly defend him – is noting how central vp is to their belief system. "What did Doctor Wierwille teach us about this or that verse?...Remember who taught you the Word? God taught him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century – and he put it all in PFAL"…Hmmm…it hits me as a belief system that's centered around vp. I'm reminded of Paul's words in Corinthians – how the counterfeit uses subtlety to corrupt the mind – where the belief system is no longer focused on Christ, and the counterfeit light does not enlighten but merely bedazzles them: II Corinthians 11:3,4, 13-15 KJV 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Hi Mike, glad to hear you have favorable conditions for work. I think it's really more a matter of perception rather than focus. Focused is okay – but does the person understand what they're focused on? Let's focus entirely on the Scripture that the devil quoted to Jesus. Does it tell us anything about the devil? Ah – but let's back up a little and we see that even the biggest liar around can quote the Bible…back up a little more and we see he can twist Scripture to suit his own evil agenda [to tempt Jesus]. That's the BIGGER picture. I like to look at the WHOLE picture and see it for what it is. And I believe that's a biblical approach – absolutely necessary in recognizing or identifying issues – it cuts through the smokescreen and one is less likely to get thrown off or distracted by deceptive means. This is what I was talking about in my post # 906 http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...=401446 I understand those passages in Matthew, Luke, II Corinthians, and Galatians as a call for discernment. They do NOT tell us to focus on any supposedly "good qualities" of the counterfeits. No – I really meant to say "truth" – as is commonly used outside of TWI-speak – as in a common dictionary definition of "truth" = "the state of being the case; fact; the body of real things, events, and facts." [Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th Edition].

Yes, Neo. And the reason I say these things has to do with the purpose of this website – to tell the other side of the story. Folks are opening up the "Lock Boxes" of personal experiences and revealing the true nature of vpw and TWI…And it's a little freakin' scary when the personal knowledge of many starts looking like common knowledge. Then there's the obvious facts that go unnoticed by some folks enamored with the man-of-god façade. His true character was right there in front of everyone's noses – but like a bizarro twist on the emperor's new clothes, the TWI-mindset only saw the man of God. I guess my post # 846 bears repeating also – and highly recommend you read the thread I mentioned in it – The Way: Living in Wonderland: What you have here at Grease Spot is an environment beyond the control of TWI…The truth is out on TWI's favorite idol. There's no TWI leadership here to "shield" you from it, re-interpret it, "spiritualize" it, whitewash it, or make it go away.

This also needs repeating: Wonder how many folks would still hold on to the GRAND assumption that God gave "doctor" the Word - if they realized he was a lying, thieving, egotistical, mean, deluded, controlling, sexual predator and drunkard.

Absolutely, Mike on this kind of thing promoting forgiveness…Absolutely… My "epiphany" happened during the chapter and verse thread in Doctrinal…And it was through a lot of dialogs with my wife Tonto and good friend Another Dan that I saw how much I was letting Grease Spot consume my time and energy – and a lot of it was over pointless arguing. …And not to re-hash my "PFAL mode" statement but I was actually trying to compliment you on your post # 913. Especially with your referencing one of my top seven favorites – the Book of Acts: That statement is intriguing – and I'll have to check that out – thanks! I don't know if this will come out right – so please don't take offense. The reason I so enjoyed your post # 913 was because the above quote wasn't laced with a PFAL promo – it came from YOU – and it was strictly about the Bible…That's cool.