T-Bone

Say Rhino, is that a velvet painting? That would make a fine addition to my collection.

Yikes Waysider !!!! You make my time in the Corps program sound like a cakewalk. Oakspear - I really like your new avatar...Grant looks like he's doing sort of a Rosie Perez head-bob move.

Congrats Rascal...amazing to see how some folks get their kicks!

Happy birthday, you little rascal you!

Here's a spiffy little bumper sticker they could've used: "Your Horn of Plenty for Our Plenty Horny"

Yup !!! Another thing that bugs me about this PFAL quote, is that it gets confusing - sort of mixing up textual criticism with systematic theology. He talks about comparing words and verses with the assumption contradictions/errors are either in the translation or one's understanding. Contradictions deal with logical inconsistencies - which would address doctrinal/theological issues. Translation work/textual criticism addresses the details of available texts. IMHO, this PFAL quote exemplifies vp's deceptive means to represent his doctrines as the Word of God - this is obvious by the time you get to the end of that quote - which I separated out and set in a putrid green font.

Here’s vp’s way of “finding” the original, from PFAL, Chapter Eleven, The Translations of the Word of God, page 128: …Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another word and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all the verses. If it is the Word of God, then it cannot have a contradiction for God cannot contradict Himself. Error has to be either in the translation or in one's own understanding. When we get back to that original, God-breathed Word – which I am confident we can – then once again we will be able to say with all the authority of the prophets of old, "Thus saith the Lord."… End of excerpts vp would call it “the original” when it didn’t contradict his theology. If you had a problem with his “translation” it was due to an error in your understanding… I really think the man had an aversion to honest and clear thinking – as Oakspear pointed out vp’s “for to one profit” convoluted translation.

That's a very thoughtful poem from such a young man…Excathedra, mention to your son that his poem connected with a 53 year old man. There's some simple and honest things in this poem that resonate with me. Thank you for sharing it… I've always had a creative bug in me as far back as I can remember…well, I think we all do – that's the funny and daring child in each of us. Another thing I remember from childhood - my number one fan was my mom!

Welcome to Grease Spot, Humble Pie! I think many of us here feel that same bittersweet thing. My wife Tonto and I were in Family Corps 11 – we left in 86 too. Thanks for the Humble Pie clip, Waysider – a great group – saw them with the Cream at Madison Square Garden…ah, those were the days…well, what a coincidence that's a Cream song too! Oh yeah, right – back to welcoming the other Humble Pie – I can sort of relate to what you were saying about wanting to fellowship with believers. We did some church shopping for awhile – but never joined one. Not saying it's out of the question in the future – so maybe it's just "being held in abeyance" right now . In a way, Grease Spot has become our cyber fellowship. We're a bunch of homebodies anyway and like the freedom to develop relationships of our choosing.

Okay - I'll check back with you next week, in case you change your mind.

Have a good one!!!!!!!! Love Tonto & T-Bone

Cryonics – it's the way of the future! A word of caution on the residential model – better put a note on the access panel "Do not defrost – cryonics research in progress".

Have a good one !

Great posts Sirguessalot & Bramble! And I really enjoyed your [Sir Todd] post # 15 on the Wierwille's *research* thread. Concerning my belief system: As I rack up the years and mental miles of distance between TWI and myself, I still come across ghosts in the machinery. One of them is that feeling of being driven to change that crops up sometimes…thinking I have to be perpetually busy – and yet wondering where is the rest and peace…Bramble's post resonated with me. Karen Armstrong made some interesting comments while talking about Buddha in A History of God: religion starts with the perception that something is wrong & effectiveness is the hallmark of a successful religion [page 32, 33]…As time goes on, I find some aspects of Eastern religions fascinating – the respect for the sacredness of everything, the concern over the consequences of my actions, the art of reflection & the inward journey. Bringing this around to my two cents for this thread...How to fix my machine? I dunno…but I've got a hunch I'm on to something – it seems some satisfaction comes when I make the effort to slow down…smell the roses…take stock of my priorities and how I interact with others…be more forgiving during self-examination sessions…Yes, I think that last item would really boost my love-thy-neighbor-capacity…cuz Jesus said love thy neighbor as thyself.

Okay, okay, I get it already….PFAL sucks…Some threads suck…I suck…What is your point?!?!

Yup...and maybe in a nebula or two... [edited from somewhere in the known galaxy]

A very thought provoking thread, Rascal! After I left TWI, I spent a long time reflecting on my belief system – why I believed this or that, what parts were "negotiable" or unimportant [which grew as time went on] and what was essential. It slowly dawned on me how mind-numbing and boring life was in TWI. It was a comfortable zone, I'll give you that – but the rigid mindset was almost like drug to escape the realities of life…If life were likened to a journey on the river – there I was with typical TWI-bravado, shouting "I'm king of the world" while standing in a boat safely tied to the dock. Here I am almost 22 years down the road from TWI-world, with perhaps a more flexible belief system and tenets of my own choosing. I think it's cool to check out other viewpoints. There's a lot of turns and things unknown on this journey, so input from fellow-travelers can be helpful at times. Sure, we all have a core set of beliefs by which we "measure" things and negotiate this journey – but in my humble opinion learning and growth come to those who have the courage to step outside their comfort zone…it makes for a more interesting experience, anyway. And I find as I explore someone else's beliefs – I really wind up exploring my own – even when their beliefs are very different from mine. It reminds me of something I found in The Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics by Norman Geisler, on Atheism: "The Loyal Opposition. Atheists are the loyal opposition to theists. It is difficult to see the fallacies in one's own thinking. Atheists serve as a corrective to invalid theistic reasoning. Their arguments against theism should give pause to dogmatism and temper the zeal with which many believers glibly dismiss unbelief. In fact, atheists serve a significant corrective role for theistic thinking. Monologues seldom produce refined thought. Without atheists, theists would lack significant opposition with which to dialogue and clarify their concepts of God." End of excerpts …So, I agree with your point…and summing up my two cents into one fat penny [and don't spend it all in one place ] – we are drawn to that which agrees with our viewpoint – but as we broaden our thinking there's the potential for deepened understanding and growth.

Have a good one!

Even as you read this thread, massive amounts of trivia are flooding the universe at an exponential rate. By the way, these polls are a very popular game in the IOK-1 galaxy.

Good point, Word Wolf.

I think you're overreacting to my post – but since it seems to have struck a nerve with you, allow me to elaborate. I did NOT use the word "idolatry" in my post…My use of the word "worshiping" is not as narrow as the TWI-definition. It's common to use the term about someone who holds another beyond reproach. A person can say something like "He just worships the ground that his supervisor walks on." It can also be an act of devotion as in worshiping wealth, fame, beauty, power, etc. Butchaknow…after thinking about how some zealously come to the defense of vp – they're quick to minimize, rationalize or whitewash his wicked behavior, and honor him as the man-o-god-for-this-day-and-time-and-hour, I can understand how some would be alarmed over my post.

I think you misunderstood the question. I didn't say the lying teacher cannot teach the truth. My question is a straightforward challenge to a student of the lying teacher. Students of PFAL were encouraged to absorb all the material – rather than analyze it. I think a student should develop critical thinking skills in any classroom setting. When it comes to studying any of vp's stuff – I believe critical thinking skills are a matter of paramount importance! After I left TWI, it was a lot of fun sorting through the good & bad stuff of PFAL - which also got me into studying systematic theology - which leads to my next point. Besides having good analytical skills, it wouldn't hurt a student to be well-read also. Exposure to other viewpoints can be a very enlightening process – a student will find there's more than one "Autobahn" out there...A well-read student with good critical thinking skills is more apt to think for themselves – and less likely to succumb to worshiping a lying teacher.

If one of the sins of the teacher is lying, then what part of the teaching is truth?

Very funny Waysider.....that's if you really are Waysider. Didn't someone say they found you napping under a big green pod? [Grabs wife's hand and pulls her out into the alleyway] Come on Tonto, we're blowing this pop stand!

Great thread, interesting posts! I think this is very solid reasoning on God's sovereignty & man's responsibility. It's interesting to look at the Old Testament account of God and the Pharaoh that Romans 9 refers to. There's a lot of references to hardening the Pharaoh's heart. Ten times the account states that God hardened the Pharaoh's heart: Exodus 4:21; 7:3; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 8, 17. However, there are also ten passages that state the Pharaoh hardened his own heart: Exodus 7:3, 14, 22; 8:15, 19, 32; 9:7, 34, 35; 13:15. Perhaps Scripture is challenging us to see some kind of balance or tension between God's sovereignty and human responsibility. …As far as your question on the mutability of the future – not sure about that one. I think the Bible does indicate that some things will turn out a certain way – and what's mind boggling to me is considering all the variables along the way that somehow converge to make it so. But does that make every aspect of the future set in stone? Not sure. This brings me to your mentioning of Hezekiah's healing in Isaiah 38 – that's an interesting point of God "reversing" a prophecy. It makes me think of how Jonah got upset with God's "change of plans" for Nineveh [Jonah 3:10; 4:1, 2]. I don't have any explanation here – just wondering how firm the future is. I've also been thinking about the potter/clay analogy of Romans 9, mentioned on this thread. Isaiah 64 speaks of the potter/clay analogy – the prophet acknowledges God's sovereignty as the potter and humbly asks for His mercy and help in shaping people's lives: Isaiah 64:1-8 NASB 1 Oh, that You would rend the heavens and come down, That the mountains might quake at Your presence— 2 As fire kindles the brushwood, as fire causes water to boil-- To make Your name known to Your adversaries, That the nations may tremble at Your presence! 3 When You did awesome things which we did not expect, You came down, the mountains quaked at Your presence. 4 For from days of old they have not heard or perceived by ear, Nor has the eye seen a God besides You, Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him. 5 You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness, Who remembers You in Your ways Behold, You were angry, for we sinned, We continued in them a long time; And shall we be saved? 6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. 7 There is no one who calls on Your name, Who arouses himself to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities. 8 But now, O LORD, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand. Jeremiah 18 likens God to a potter who will remake the House of Israel into a good vessel – if they will repent: Jeremiah 18:1-11 NASB 1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, 2 "Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will announce My words to you." 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4 But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, 6 "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11 "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."' Maybe we push the potter/clay analogy too far – in thinking the clay represents us as mindless lumps. Perhaps we're more involved in this "shaping" process than we realize. Yes, the clay pictures us as malleable creatures – shaped by a higher power – but one may also infer from Scripture that our response is a key element in this shaping process. Think about passages that exhort us to do the right thing, hold to certain beliefs, and maintain the appropriate attitudes. And consider the above passages that seem to forward a kind of contingency aspect of the future. I don't think it's God making us into something that we're really not...Sometimes I see it as God being like Michelangelo – a master sculptor with a plan to free the form already inside the stone . But it's an art form with a twist – in that we are a responsive "medium" – things that God orchestrates behind the scenes, our prayers, His responses to our prayers, the decisions we make, how we respond to circumstances…the good & bad experiences…the successes & failures...the challenges & graces...the blessings & hardships...are all tools that chip away to reveal the essential being inside.