T-Bone

Great stuff, Belle - thanks!! I've often wondered if a clock could become a grease spot by midnight...and if so, could it elude that oily demise by periodically moving to an earlier time zone?

A thought provoking post, One Who is Free! Whenever I think of that Genesis reference: Genesis 50:20 NASB "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." My mind always tags on a passage from Romans: Romans 8:28 NASB And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. Don't know who can explain the way God works behind the scenes – like you were saying it depends on one's theology. The above passages offer little to explain exactly how God intervenes – or to put it another way – exercises His sovereignty. But they are very clear on His intent – both verses focus on the benevolence of God. Despite all the bad things that happened to Joseph, God still managed to turn things around – even while he was in jail! The story of Joseph is an amazingly intricate blend of God's sovereignty and man's activity. Romans does NOT say God causes all things…it's that He causes all things to work together for good. I realize any analogy or speculation on how God works falls short of describing His abilities or what He actual does – but sometimes I picture God as a grand traffic-controller of events. He does not exert absolute control over each being in the flow of events, but I consider all beings as something of His design and think they would typically follow some innate protocols [like the conscience – referred to in Romans 2:14, 15]. That's one level of influence God already has over the big picture [the traffic flow or chain of events]. Another, more overt level of influence as shown in the Joseph account and other stories is when God induces messages in dreams, provides direct revelation, and speaks audibly. He can work through a variety of approaches. He may re-direct traffic or block off streets through natural or "coincidental" means, or use a more direct approach – a miracle – which I would classify as an emergency response vehicle that has the right-of-way in all traffic – . Besides taking into account God's omnipotence to pull all that off – it's altogether mind-boggling when I think of God's omniscience – He not only knows what's going on at the moment…everywhere…but He's got foreknowledge – which is better than up-to-the-minute-traffic-reports. He's already making preparations for things that will happen way down the road! Which brings up the power of prayer. How does that fit in with God's sovereignty? Well, it just may be that a particular prayer is the means God deemed necessary for something to happen. From our perspective – it looks like our prayer changed the course of events. But perhaps from God's viewpoint – that prayer was exactly what He planned on using to ensure the flow of events according to His agenda. ~~ For me, the most complex weaving of God's sovereignty and man's activity is the crucifixion of Jesus. Think about all the contingencies that threatened the entire life of Jesus – yet Scripture foretold the way He would die. One passage showcases this conundrum of God's sovereignty and man's activity: Matthew 26:23-25 NASB 23And He answered, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me. 24"The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." 25And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself." ~~ Since your post got me thinking how all this relates to my TWI experience – I'm at a loss for figuring out exactly what God had in mind for me. That's not to say my whole experience was bad or there's nothing good that came out of it. I feel the road I've taken after TWI is in many ways a God-honoring response to a spiritually treacherous experience. I take very seriously the development of MY belief system. Being burned enough by religious con-artists I've learned the hard way about the value of critical thinking and the necessity of a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ. In some ways – I think any Christian who escaped TWI had a Paul-conversion-experience. Paul was zealous for God, knew the Old Testament like the back of his hand – but persecuted the very One who was at the center of the Scriptures. Until he met Him on the road to Damascus. That mindset-shattering experience caused Paul to re-think everything he knew about the Scriptures. He didn't throw it all away – instead he re-built his theological system – now with Christ at the center! To simplify things – I'm saying life is too short to try and figure out what God's plan was for me while in TWI. Like Joseph, I think the best we can do is look to God for strength and wisdom to make lemonade out of lemons…And on a very practical level – I've found myself drawing upon even the negative experiences of TWI. I tend not to get caught up in office politics like some folks after dealing with all the mind-games of Corps training. I don't care how much of a control-freak a supervisor becomes – it usually slides off my back as I stifle a smile while thinking I'm Corps dammit – this ain't nothing!

That's an issue to take up with the God Sales Reps. Maybe they just need to revise their brochures.

Hoping you have a good one! Love Tonto & T-Bone

Mstar, thanks for posting that! Very enjoyable - like Rainbows Girl was saying it's refreshing. I found that snippet of poetry really cool too and after scanning thru the link you gave - I converted the whole page into a PDF so I can look at it later...Wish you the best on your presentation about color - just be yourself like you are here at Grease Spot and you'll be fine. I always enjoy reading your posts...and anyone who can work a tough crowd like this café is OK in my book .

Thanks, Penworks - I'll have to check out that book. Ya know, I think Lacuna was the name of the company that erased unwanted memories in the movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind...your post makes me want to watch that again.

Great post, Oak!...just goes to show ya – the mentality of TWI leadership cannot deal with inquiring minds. And it seems as so often is the case, their avoidance of dealing with issues in an upfront, honest manner only leads to their undoing – they lose followers. They just can't control the reaction of a mind that's reached "critical mass" [that's a large sum of questionable details]. It's no secret I'm a big fan of yours – and I'm sure there's a lot of folks here that also appreciate the clarity and critical thinking savvy you bring to Grease Spot. I can relate to your experience. When Passing of the Patriarch hit the fan – leaderships' stonewalling on many issues only intensified my desire to figure out what really went wrong and what was the current state of affairs [talking about business affairs – not bedroom affairs…although at the time, little did I know for some leaders, bedroom affairs was big business <_< ]. Ah yes – "stagnant crud" an apt description of the TWI frame of thought…The following is a commercial for the new High Colonic – formulated to alleviate such problems: Critical Thinking – it will flush out the stagnant crud.

yeah, Mark ! Perfect !

I saw a bumper sticker today that made me crack up - first thought was I've got to get this to our people right away! .....But anywho - I believe the bumper sticker may actually relate to this thread on Way Brain...are ya ready, boys & girls? here 'tis: My reality check bounced I can't remember what colors where on the bumper sticker - so I went with PFAL Card Green.

Which inspires a little plagiarism of the Beatles: For the benefit of Mr. Vic There will be a class tonight on TV Screens. The graduates must all be there Instructor yells at folks out of chair – what a scene! Over men and women he pulls the wool The fake snowstorm will bury you – what a liar! In this way Mr. Vic will challenge the world!

Paw - that makes me think of old Rube Goldberg cartoons....now if they could get it to pick up AM & FM stations it would give new meaning to the term Ham Radio...ba-dum-bum. Waysider - after watching your YouTube link, we had to watch Pee Wee's Big Adventure. Mark Clarke -

After reading Karen Armstrong's A History of God I tend to agree.

Yeah....provided their cat doesn't get to the snacks first. "Yo, Tom - quit messin' with my food !"

Looking forward to it!!! I've got an electric bass and can bring my bass amp too …other than the occasional jam with my son I haven't played with anyone in a loooooong time – if ya'll will put up with old rusty fingers here, I'd love to jam…out of consideration for your neighbors I think it should be in the garage…I sooooooo look forward to hanging out with folks I really don't care what's for grub or if we get to jam.

Have a good one, Jeff...I always like your input at Grease Spot!

When you said that to me at the Texas BBQ, you meant it in a nice way, right?

Excellent points, Groucho! vp's main ploy was always to draw a sharp line of distinction between him and mainstream Christianity. Even from the beginning in PFAL - with his use of 4 crucified, the cry of triumph, the day Jesus died - he was emphasizing what made him so different from everyone else - and that it was over matters of the utmost importance to boot! It portrayed him as very important and absolutely necessary in one's quest for truth. What was really meant by the PFAL "benefit" Enables you to seperate truth from error on the back of the Green Card, was that "smart" graduates of the class were followers who separated themselves from all other Christian organizations according to the polarizing issues of vp... As I said on another thread, the Blue Book should have been titled vp Tells Me So.

Tzaia – I agree. I lean toward vp being a sociopath – in other words, he lacked a conscience. He "dignified" a seared conscience by his pet phrases like, I've so renewed my mind that this _______ [fill in the blank with the sin of your choice] doesn't bother me…or, unto the pure, all things are pure. Rascal – often it comes down to people see what they want to see - good point of your friend projecting what she wanted to see. Maybe there's a "law" of believing equals perceiving. <_< ....Something quite different from that – but also came to mind from your post are the stages one goes through when dealing with the aftermath of a traumatic experience. One of the first things is denial. No! It can't be! You mean I was tricked?! But I think that phase is a normal reaction – part of our defense mechanism to deny thoughts & feelings that could cause more anxiety – making things even worse. Maybe it buys us some time – to let our heads "catch up" and fully process what actually happened. Hopefully, the person moves on from denial – to not only accept want happened but to take the necessary "therapeutic" steps to recovery. Jeff – that's the sweet & sour taste of my TWI experience too…and probably so for many folks here. I often think of the good, decent, honest folks that crossed my path in TWI – that's the sweet side. On the bitter side – yeah vp duped us….He11, it was more than that! He built an empire that EXPLOITED people – maintaining a tyrannical reign through something that was imperceptible to followers – the TWI mindset. Imho, the impact of vp's deception is by far worse than a simple con-job…where say a crook swindles someone out of $5,000. What is that in comparison to followers basing decisions on the doctrines, priorities & agenda of TWI? Think of the far-reaching ramifications: career paths derailed, marriages & families broken up, education stunted, often-exacerbating pre-existing mental health issues of folks thus afflicted…I mean – how much do we want to look into the can of worms… But I guess that's part of the healing process [looking into my personal can of worms]…I can't change the past…what's done is done…Part of my healing process is learning how to make wise decisions from now on. It's an ongoing project, of course...I'm a firm believer in learning from my mistakes [studying my can of worms is indeed very educational ].

Dang! Guess I'll get rid of my Rubik's Globe…once used it in a science project to demonstrate continental drift.

Happy Birthday Spectrum 49 - have a good one!!!

Welcome, Spoudazo - glad you made it! Care for a cup of cappuccino - my treat.

You better file an occident report.

Interesting, Bramble – I never thought of Jesus' sacrifice from that Trinity angle…I don't have a point here or anything to do with our topic – but – you've got me thinking about our attempts to define God/deity. I believe in the deity of Jesus and that man was created in the image of God. As you said, what culture would revere a parent who sacrifices their child over themselves? But I do think most folks admire that self-sacrifice quality of heroes who have given their lives for a noble cause. And that makes me think of the years TWI drummed into my head such arrogant ideas as unbelievers being nothing more than animals or empties floating by…Well, I've changed that tune somewhat…Yeah – we're ALL bozos on the same bus…all fallen creatures. But I believe we ALL still bear the image of God. That's part of what makes us human. Howbeit, every facet of our being has been impacted by sin, even the image of God. Ok…now feeling guilty for rambling off topic…but I'm pinning the blame on Bramble's thought provoking post - just kiddin'….thanks! :) How about I try to meld it into the end of my post # 22, by saying I think good religions and belief systems serve to improve, enhance & enlighten the individual – validating our humanity. Imho, people were created in the image of God. The admirable qualities of man testify to this and in a way provide a small glimpse of God.

Yup - fascinating book - she did a very thoughtful job of weaving together what was probably a gazillion hours of historical research...Liked it so much I picked up another one of hers [haven't read it yet...but I'm fixin' to - as they say in Texas]. It's In The Beginning: A New Interpretation of Genesis.

1. What is your understanding of the Trinity? My thinking of late has been seeing some aspects of Trinitarian doctrine as a convenient but limited theological construct trying to plumb the bottomless depths of an infinite being. I'm a study bug and a technician – with a penchant for analyzing the life outta something! My approach to the Trinity has evolved from trying to get a bigger glimpse of God [usually I come away with the feeling that I'm STILL missing something], to I dunno…settling for what I think God wants me to do with my life. John 14, 15 & 16 is a target-rich environment for checking out how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit relate to a believer. At least that's what I'm getting out of those chapters. Ya know, The Holy Spirit never gets top billing – His role seems to be more of a facilitator in this whole thing of how I relate to the Father and the Son. That's what really strikes my interest in all this. What does it all have to do with ME? I'm not trying to be evasive in my response – just honest. Out of any biblical topic – for me this one is the most fun to explore – and I mean explore. I'm not looking to accumulate enough ammunition to annihilate any Unitarian. I'm not claiming to be right or that I've got it all figured out. I see Unitarians as pointing out the disparity between the Father and the Son – I don't argue with that. Maybe where some of the differences lie is in the way Trinitarians and Unitarians believe God works. I dunno…maybe some of why I'm attracted to Trinitarian doctrine is out of rebellion to the TWI mindset – that was only comfortable in rigidly categorizing theology in bite-size details for mass consumption. Maybe PFAL wasn't so bad in that it got some folks to read the Bible. It was sort of a systematic approach – too bad folks treated it as the touchstone for truth. There's some good stuff in PFAL, and it might have evolved into something way different if there would have been honesty, humility and a concern to improve intellectual standards…No system is perfect – theological, political, technological…whatever…so, I figure Trinitarians & Unitarians both have some strong points and weaknesses. I'm into exploring. I read a very interesting book The Trinity: Evidence and Issues by Robert Morey. One of the biggest things I got out of it was looking at the multi-personal aspect of God in the Old Testament – I cited a bunch from the book on this thread: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=302932 Anyway…is everyone confused over my understanding of the Trinity now? Good – so am I. [and you should all be thankful...this is my short answer] ~~ 2. Does one have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian? Nope. ~~ 3. If one does not believe in the Trinity do they believe in "another Jesus"? As a confused Trinitarian, I would have to say I don't know. What if it's the same Jesus – in a different format. Maybe a Trinitarian looks at Jesus in High Definition. How does a High Definition broadcast of the news change the content of the news? The stories are still the same – but a viewer in front of an HD TV may notice more details on the news set or film clip. My point is - it doesn't change the message and both broadcasts originate from the same program. ~~ 4. Where is VPW's JCNG book accurate / inaccurate? Yeah, what Oakspear said. I'd also add – while strong on pointing out the disparity between the Father & Son – it failed to address Scripture that showed the divinity of Jesus or suggested any sense of equality. ~~ 5. What turns have your beliefs taken w/r to the Trinity surrounding your involvement in TWI, in and out? Please refer to my answer for question # 1. I'm all talked out now.