T-Bone

Right, Oak - I tend to think that way as well...I believe doctrine does affect practice - but the dynamics of our belief system can put such an odd spin on even the best of theology. I've been on both sides of the Jesus is God/Not God debate - and there's something uncanny about the antagonism that flares up from either side. And it's got nothing to do with the valid Scripture references & logic from both sides - imho, it's coming from a certain mindset or attitude. Man, when I was in TWI - I had such an arrogant and prideful attitude "knowing" I was correct in believing Jesus was not God...Now, I'm not sure...most days, I'll tell ya I'm a Trinitarian. I'm of the opinion, the whole subject is way over my head, hard to nail down, explain or abstract some significant practical consequence from such a complex bundle of Scripture related to the identity of Jesus. Honestly, my practical application of how I see Jesus is a simple desire to love & serve Him. Yup - that's the million dollar question - and you're right - everyone has a different take on what makes a cult...I like what Eyes Open posted - so I stuck it below - it runs along the lines of what I've experienced: Some great wisdom in your post - thanks Eyes Open...What makes TWI a cult in my book is the combination of some whacked out theology [for instance, the law of believing, or thinking one can become so spiritual that things done in the flesh are of no consequence, i.e sexual immorality] and a whacked out authoritarian leader without a conscience, who establishes self-serving agenda, policies & practices...An unscrupulous individual with their own whacked out belief system is one thing - the person leads a delusional & immoral life - their negative impact to others is on a relatively smaller scale [excluding someone like a lone terrorist or maybe a professional criminal, of course]... But behold the power of the microphone! We put that same person in charge of a religious group - and we have an organization that entangles followers in an artificial world of life-sucking delusions; yes, a scary realm run by vampires! [now I understand why vp didn't like the cross - ]. Cult-world is inhabited by three groups of people: predators, facilitators & victims. Predators, like vampires, usually don't work in the "daylight" [out in the open like honest folks]. That's why they need facilitators [who may or may not be aware of the true nature of the masters they serve]. Facilitators provide indirect or unobtrusive assistance in keeping the flow of victims running smoothly. I think good religions and belief systems serve to improve, enhance & enlighten the individual. It's a two-way street with benefits flowing to & from the individual - imho, that's healthy and the way a "commerce" of relationships should be run. Bad ones.... cults usually turn the tables on folks - followers serve the cult - often to their own detriment....life-sucking to say the least - cults are parasitic - they thrive off the "valid" parts of a theology [maybe as an attractant to followers] AND the vitality & resources of their followers. It's a one-way street - the energy & benefits flow toward the cult leaders. It is a tyranny to fatten a select few.

I think you're right, Waysider – its very title "Christian Family & Sex" – suggests that it was based on the Bible with the interpretation and practical applications coming from a Christian mindset. But you also have to take into account the TWI mindset [which puts a weird twist on a lot of Christian ideas anyway], that assumed just about anything that came from "Doctor" [and I use that term very loosely ] was God-breathed…so, not only was it received as material relevant to Biblical Research & Teaching - the TWI mindset tended to elevate vp's doctrines as being on par with Scripture. And back then, anyone foolish enough to imply otherwise of vp's stuff would risk jeopardizing their own standing in TWI – which at minimum would have incurred a serious-talking-to.

References to "Spit" and "hand" are both found in the Bible. Olive Oil, also mentioned in the Bible is a natural lubricant....Perhaps vp mentioned this as a matter of sexual expediency. Maybe he was semi-plagiarizing an old proverb: a spit in the hand is worth Olive Oil for the bush. [edited for a PG-13 Rating; reader discretion is advised ]

Congrats on the exciting news!

That does it! That does it! You wanna slice of me?!

I don’t care – I stand behind my post!

There once was a dude named Raf Who tried to avoid every gaffe He thought Pineapple Pizza Was a good way to treat ya But this connoisseur has to laugh

Thinking about this recent discussion again…and reviewing the Spiritual Abuse book…Geisha got me thinking about how natural and necessary it is to judge – whether it's for the safety & security of our children or ourselves…heck, even thinking about "surviving" day-to-day, the faculty of judgment must be constantly tasked…assessing a business deal before you sign the dotted line, or bargain shopping – what constitutes a good buy? Perhaps it's a given that folks have their own criteria for decision-making on lots of things. Maybe we're not always aware of an extensive checklist or criteria and I'm sure our emotions add levels of complexity in our thinking. One of the most complicated "rituals" I can think of is the whole dating/choosing-a-mate-process. Especially nowadays – of course, I'm out of touch but I'm thinking how mobile and disconnected some are from their roots – it then becomes more challenging for a couple to check each other out. I'm not putting down dating services or anything – just think there's a lot more to the classic marrying-your-childhood-sweetheart thing than meets the eye. Yeah, it was just a looooong, slooooow detailed process of checking each other out. I like the practical aspects of judgment that Geisha brought up. Therefore, it makes sense that the "atmosphere" of TWI tended to incapacitate our faculty of judgment. It was a system of predators setting up victims by getting them to turn off parts of their natural defense system. The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse nails the subversive methods of The Way International – I'm tempted to think the authors plagiarized from a little known book by vp called How I did it! The learned powerlessness, shame-based relationships, focus on performance, manipulation, idolatry, preoccupation with fault & blame, obscured reality, power-posturing, unspoken rules, the "can't talk" rule, [okay that's just from pages 53 to 69, better stop there so my post ain't too long :) ] continually pounded away at our faculties – rendering folks into an homogenized group of punch-drunk followers. Yeeech!!!! IMHO, a therapeutic relationship is one that is respectful of the individual…not violating boundaries…not ramrodding ideas into the heart…not encasing the soul in a life-sucking organizational cocoon. I speak from experience – not as a professional therapist but as a patient. And from my side of the couch, I think the professional really hits the therapeutic mark when they succeed in getting the patient to start engaging reality. I thank God for professional therapeutic relationships – and think they do a lot more for mental health than TWI ever did. Who knows – if I could borrow from the Lazarus account in John 11, maybe in a way Jesus is standing behind the professional, as he calls someone out of the cult's cave and helps them peel off the captivating layers of grave clothes. John 11: 43, 44 NIV 43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."

Some good points, folks! Got me thinking about The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen. Talking about learned powerlessness on page 55: "People learn to be or act powerless by experiencing relationships that have either prepared them to be abused, or not prepared them to not be abused."

Yup – you've got no argument with me there, Another Brother. I love this discussion…I had a difficult time understanding the topic of judging right after I left TWI. Seems that all-or-nothing-thinking still clouded my thought process. Matter of fact, it wasn't until I studied up on this judging thing that I felt more comfortable in sorting out my TWI experience. Not saying I've got it all figured out, nor am I consistent with putting it into practice. Honestly, it did take me awhile to grasp what you so eloquently expressed: that to condemn or forgive a soul in true judgment belongs to our sovereign Lord alone. But He expects us to judge thoughts, words, and deeds. Which again brings me back to the ideas at the beginning of this thread – comparing TWI's counseling methods with professionals. Like I said in post # 107, TWI lacked good standards – so a counselor troubleshooting an issue with someone was often like volunteering to be a guide without a map & compass. It was hit & miss. At least, that's how I see it in retrospect. I think most of us assumed we had the perfect standard – "the Word" – but to be honest, I usually worked at finding some Scripture to twist around in promoting the TWI lifestyle. It was God's ministry – it's all good. I think Jay Adams' stuff has a lot of good things – but as I said in post 34 – in the hands of a non-professional, it was okay for dealing with small issues. But you know the TWI mindset – it has the amazing capacity to assume absolute knowledge. I think TWI latched onto Adams' stuff cuz it was based on the Bible. But with the Advanced Class grad syndrome, with that operating-all-nine-all-the-time-whine, we thought we had the God given authority to take somebody else's work a step further . I liked the realism Don't Worry brought up in post # 37 – there can be bad apples in the professional fields as well. That's why I say – it pays to do some research yourself…My wife was nagging me to go to a psychiatrist for a long time…[By the way, note to professionals – certain preexisting conditions and TWI don't mix. It usually makes matters worse :( ]. I think depression runs in my family. I wrestled with it before cult world – but that Mickey Mouse operation seemed to drive me deeper into a dark oppressive pit. I began reading up on it. A good book I found was Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy by David Burns – gets into cognitive therapy big time. It clued me into some "standards" that professionals more or less go by in diagnosing depression – with the 10 cognitive distortions it covers – I was armed and ready to JUDGE my own thinking patterns. That book inspired me to finally go to a psychiatrist – and helped me to help him help me [sounds like a Stuart Smalley line ]- since I was now familiar with some of the "standard" line of thinking on depression. This guy was so cool – after I unloaded a bunch of my regrets over TWI stuff – he said one of the most enlightening things to me "you've got to quit beating yourself up over all that." That's interesting. He made a judgment call on my erroneous thought process. I felt he was genuinely concerned about my issues but did not judge me a whacko. I think just about every session we had something to laugh about too – he has the same dry sense of humor that I have…laughter is good medicine. Dang, sorry to post so much on this thread – but I'm so doggone passionate on this stuff – hey, it's my head we're talking about here .

Thanks Oklahoma !

(((((((Nero & Family)))))))

Another Dan, I'm not trying to give you a hard time – just trying to elaborate on some things – and put my additional 2 cents in…think I'm 12 cents into this thread now :) . I think the Matthew 7 reference in the context of your post maybe confuses the issues on this thread - or maybe it's just me. Reading the context of the "judge not" verse – I think it is most definitely applicable to counseling situations: Matthew 7:1-5 NASB 1"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. It seems the type of judging that's prohibited is hypocritical judging [going by verse 5]. Matter of fact, there are passages that suggest God expects people to make judgments: Psalm 37:30, the righteous will talk of judgment; Amos 5:14,15, hate evil, love good, establish judgment in the gate; Jeremiah 5 talks of seeking any who executes judgment and seeks the truth – which IMHO is the type of judgment condoned by God – we are to discern the truth in a matter. And most notably in John 7:24 Jesus said to judge righteous judgments. Keying off what you were saying about folks in TWI were ill-equipped to counsel - I can relate both then and now. We've all got our own planks to yank out. But it's a lot easier now - unburdened by a blinding mindset. Jesus didn't say it couldn't be done. He said it SHOULD be done before helping someone deal with a speck in the eye. And I must say, I've received so much help here from folks that have removed the PFAL planks from their eyeballs - yeah - and watch out for splinters [splinter groups] ...All kidding aside - there's a lot of deep stuff to think about on perception from this passage - honesty & humility come in to play big time here [iMHO the TWI mindset was severely lacking in those two noble qualities]. Like Rhino was saying, I'm not into pointing fingers either…Maybe it all depends on how you look at things. What I see happening at Grease Spot for the most part is folks helping each other sort out the TWI experience. Yup – it's a judgment thing – each of us has to make the call on certain issues if we're going to make sense of this stuff. Sometimes it can get real messy. Folks may be harboring a lot of guilt, shame, anger, hopelessness…whatever. Grease Spot is a very therapeutic place. I've got a long way to go – but I don't find myself feeling as bitter, hopeless or confused about my TWI experience since I first joined Grease Spot. There's something very good that happens here – sort of a group therapy thing. I especially liked the latter part of post # 1 [pasted below] in light of what goes on here. I'm starting to appreciate the folks here a lot more – I'm trying not to be judgmental and to be more intent on helping us all sort out issues and find the truth of a matter: ...so I look into the mirror every morning and say "patient, heal thyself."

Another Dan, I've a good mind to grill you on where you found that rare photo of me ….But seriously, I understand what you're saying – about we all sin, fall short of the glory of God and need forgiveness. I agree. But since I left TWI, I've thought a lot about how that was so shoved down out throats by vp – and in regards to his true character that has since come to light – I tend to think he used it as an excuse for some BIG sinning. Of course, this runs counter to his teaching in PFAL of all sin being the same. Imagine has a great thread on this: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=423433 Is all sin the same? Is the sin of telling a little white lie the same as murder? Well, speaking in general terms – sin is sin – cuz Romans 6 talks about the wages of sin is death. But to leave it at that is very simplistic, IMHO. I think some sins bring greater consequences to the sinner and some bear significant negative impact to others. The Old Testament addressed this in the eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth code of justice in Exodus 21. There's enough references in Scripture that lead me to believe God doesn't view all sin the same – here's a few I thought of right off the bat: Exodus 32: 21-34 talks of Israel's idolatry as being a great sin; consequences being blotted out of God's book. Jesus said the one who delivered Him to Pilate had a greater sin than Pilate [John 19:11]. Galatians 5 talks about the deeds of the flesh [immorality, idolatry, drunkenness, sorcery, etc.] and warns that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Yes – we are all held to the same standard, as you pointed out…And that brings us back to the beginning of this thread – something occurred to me in thinking about the counseling methods promoted by vp and those of professionals – and what screams at me when comparing the two is vp's lack of any standards! Seeing how the Advanced Class agenda was his pride and joy – need an answer on something you just reach up into Daddy's Cookie Jar – I imagine many a "savvy counselor" enamored with vp's ways figured it's just a walk and presumed there'd be times where they'd have to pull an answer out of their a$$. How TWI even changed standards was one of my points in post # 34. Jay Adams' stuff is big on confronting sin and holding all parties to the moral standards of the Bible [good stuff IMHO] – in the ministry, it morphed into promoting the ideals of TWI…In the context of counseling - we were taught to screen people through the template of an ideal TWI follower…How often is that person coming to twig? Why isn't that person sponsoring someone?...Oh, him! He still hasn't taken PFAL – don't waste anymore time with him! Reading Don't Worry's post of confronting vp – it hit me as a kind of a weird bizarro flip flop of I Corinthians 5 – I imagine this is how it reads in the Original Grease Text: It is actually reported that you thrive on sexual immorality in your motor coach, and of a kind that does not occur even among unbelievers who own RVs. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief, dethroned and put out of the fellowship, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. And speaking of "gnashing of teeth" – take that dog with you!

Yeah – I got this form-letter response…see below: "Thank you for your questions. Every question is very important to my ministry and will be answered in the order they were received. In the meantime, I recommend you enroll in the next PFAL class in your area. Be alert and attentive for each session – your particular questions may have already been answered in PFAL."

Happy birthday, Word Wolf - one of my favorite posters! What always comes across in your posts is a genuine love for people and Scripture. Your critical thinking skills and incisive comments are truly an inspiration...and you're the first wolf I've grown to trust. :wub: Here's one of your brothers howling a birthday song for ya

On a small scale - I'm of the opinion that God often worked through the honorable efforts of good people like Don't Worry ...or you in preventing a suicide. But in addressing the problems that plagued the whole ministry, no herculean efforts could [or should] save this whacked out cult! Of course, all this has been just my take on things, never held a key position...I was just a leaf on a mighty diseased tree….and I suppose God often worked things out in spite of the efforts of certain unscrupulous men. The aftermath of Passing of the Patriarch comes to mind - I think God was behind that grand meltdown for sure - lots of people left in that time frame - that's when my wife and I did! Where did I get the intellectual wherewithal to leave? I dunno….God's grace, I guess. I was a wimp - so submissive - I'm still amazed I could muster up enough strength & good sense to leave when I did! God sure made it easy for us to leave - the ministry was a boiling pot of controversy & confusion - don't think our exit was even noticed. Of my 12 years in TWI, the last part of it was spent in Family Corps training. I was a relative newbie to ministry leadership. And considering my personality type – that I wasn't suited for a managerial or pastoral role – I think if I would have gotten involved in the can of worms that Don't Worry was in the thick of – it would have more than likely fried my faith. It's not until years later at Grease Spot – that I've been able to see the insanity & moral depravity of the cult "in all its ineffable greatness and ga-lowry" – to accept that I was deceived…that I was a facilitator, blindly lending my support for the secret agenda of those bozos!...Sometimes I pray for the victims...sometimes I pray for forgiveness.

Thanks, Water Buffalo - yup, that Jackson Browne song fits us all to a T.....And I agree - Don't Worry was - and still is one of the good guys - I sure hope he or anyone else doesn't interpret my post as a slight against him. I just wanted to say that anyone with even the best of intentions was fighting a losing battle from within the system.

"Hindsight is 20/20" …I'll say!!!! After reading your post and mulling over the rest of this thread, a couple of verses kept popping up in my head. Matthew 9:17 NASB "Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved." Matthew 15:14 NASB "Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit." Like everyone else, I like to play Quantum Leap and troubleshoot my TWI experience with what I know and believe now…IMHO, the reason any therapeutic methods failed was due to having the sights aimed at symptoms and not the causes. For if indeed the heart of the problem was targeted – I believe the changes necessary to resolve the issues would have caused the organization as we know it to cease from existence. I think any noble "therapeutic" efforts from within the confines of the TWI paradigm fell short on two counts: we were all blind leading the blind AND no one addressed TWI's problematic core belief system…I think most folks who left that insanity were surprised by how much clearer they saw the nature of the beast once the blinders [mindset] began to fall away…I believe a healthy paradigm and the TWI mindset are incompatible – and pouring a healthy dose of honesty, compassion, humility and sanity into that old wineskin will just make it burst.

Great post, Word Wolf ! A sociopath in the guise of a pastor is a scary thing. Makes about as much sense as leaving a wolf in charge of the sheep.

You've got that right!!! Take the gender of the victims out of the picture - and what's left is the insidious way they raped our souls.

Great stuff, Sir Todd – and thanks for that link to Rites of Change…I haven't thought about rituals in a long time – but I see their value from what you've said. Effective ritual draws something out of the person – but it's not taking something away from them – maybe more like helping the person fully engage the experience. I like the opening paragraph on that link: "Life is made up of constant change and some change is more significant than others. Ritual is a way that we can acknowledge the significant changes in our lives. A rite of passage is an intentional process that moves us from where we are to where we are headed." Some of the rites were familiar to me [moving to adolescence, birthdays, weddings, etc.] but further down the page there's a bunch that really struck my interest – on career change, supporting therapy, letting go of anger, mid-life adjustments, prep for surgery & dealing with illness, etc…I'm thinking these are ways to …don't know how to articulate it…was going to say "transcend" – but maybe it's not so much me rising above the situation as much as me taking it all in…becoming aware of all details - which includes my responses/feelings. Embracing it all…dealing with it head-on…being spiritual…being holy…being whole…being totally connected to the experience. This is a very deep topic and surprisingly enjoyable to follow. Thanks, Abigail for a great thread…your posts/threads are so thought provoking…and great input by everyone else too!

Very interesting article, Belle – thanks...makes me wonder about the nature of faith, spirituality, etc……hmmm, it also gets me thinking about what TWI put in their Kool-Aid.

Maybe he acted like a nut...and she had second thoughts since they didn't have a washer.

How long does it take a Whirling Dervish to screw in a light bulb?