T-Bone

…guess male strippers weren't so competitive back then.

I'm of the opinion that PFAL had it wrong on a lot of things – and excuse the short treatise to follow – but your post touches some deep & intriguing issues. Not saying I've got it all right – just throwing in my 2 cents… I believe there's something of the soul that bears the image of God [as mentioned in Genesis 1:26, 27] – and as such is eternal. The reason I believe this is that there are other passages after the fall of man that imply this image of God still resides in man – although now a tarnished likeness of the Creator [Genesis 9:6; James 3:9]. I'm ashamed to recall how we were taught by TWI to view unbelievers – "they're just empties floating by"…There's a lot to the great commandment of loving my neighbor as myself – I figure there's an assumption there that my neighbor and I both bear the image of God. Maybe that has something to do with Paul's reference to the Gentiles who do not have the law – do instinctively the things of the law [Romans 2:14, 15]. To me that suggests a moral template in people - put there by design, another aspect of the image of God. Think about the many different cultures throughout history that have had some type of codes or laws to prohibit stealing, adultery, murder, etc. – perhaps an indication of a common moral sense integral to human beings. ~~ If the nature of the soul is eternal and yet the Bible also speaks of a physical resurrection, it seems to me that the soul was designed to be housed in a physical body. Physical body, be it an earthly/natural body or a spiritual/supernatural body. Both types of bodies are physical – in that they have specific properties/capabilities [though some differing greatly, I'm sure] that interact with a real world. I sometimes wonder about all the technicalities of how God is going to resurrect folks. It's entertaining to imagine it like a CSI episode, [Creator Steps In]. Ok - total improv here – just goofing around – if I was God what would I do? Knowing I'd have to find each person's remains – I'd assign a unique frequency to each person's DNA or something [ok – so I'm not a scientist], have the means to detect and identify that stuff – no matter where it is – and have the wherewithal to re-assemble & modify it to new specifications but with the original owner [the self] left intact. ~~ According to some systematic theologies there's an interesting way of defining "death" as separation: physical death [separation of body & soul], spiritual death [separation of man from God in this life], and eternal death [separation of man from God for all eternity; also referred to as "the second death"]. I don't believe the Bible teaches anyone is annihilated – completely destroyed – taken out of existence. As far as why there is a resurrection of the unjust – I mentioned in a previous post about a continuity of self – where things we do here and now have bearing in the next world. Think about Jesus' words in Matthew 5:29, 30 - it being better to lose one part of the body now than for the whole body to go to hell, maybe that relates somehow to this continuity of self idea…Kinda makes me shudder to think how cavalier the TWI mindset could get – thinking what we do in the flesh has little or no consequence in the bigger picture – eternity. Rewards and punishments would be senseless unless there was continuity of self – otherwise the recipient would not see the justice in what was given them…I don't think God needs to rake anyone over the coals as an act of mindless torture. I get the idea from the Bible that people receive what they deserve in this moral & just universe – maybe not immediately – but it will all work out that way eventually. And from what I understand of justice in Scripture – just as there is variety & degrees of rewards in heaven – there's variety & degrees of punishment in hell. Hugh Ross in one of his books speculates on one way these variables could work out by suggesting that God could design different bodies with varying degrees of sensitivity to their surroundings.

There's a lot to what you're saying - at least it sounds good to me - perhaps similar to how I view the self...being partly genetic, partly an ideal of what I want to become, partly being true [congruent] to my core of beliefs, values...I think TWI fostered incongruity - telling people to "renew their mind" to some standard they put forth, to ignore feelings, don't trust their own reasoning skills, etc.. I'd even go so far as to say they'd try squeezing you into a mold - so you became what they needed to get their agenda done...regardless if you're wired a certain way or not. I'm not a salesman or managerial type - so didn't enjoy witnessing or being a twig, branch or area leader. An amazing aspect of the "self" is the ability to transcend itself - in that I can reflect on who I am, see something I want to change and work toward that...TWI held up an image of the ideal TWI follower and said "this is what you want to become." My Christian viewpoint loves to explore things like this - I even wonder about some kind of continuity of self from the here and now to the next life. Probably getting off topic here - maybe stuff more for the doctrinal forum - but I lean toward our "self" being important enough that there's some kind of continuation of it into eternity - though in a re-constituted form - what's that? - dunno - but Romans 8 talks about the redemption of our bodies and I Corinthians 15 & II Corinthians 5 speak about the immortal first starting out as mortal - which makes me think of the physical aspect of the self [as you mentioned earlier - genetic].

Geez, I LOVE your post!!! That right there shows ya what a manipulative game they had going on! In my opinion, the "authority" of a TWI leader to stick their nose into your business and tell you what to do was partly based on the PFAL bullchi+ that if you had your ears closed to God's guidance - you'd be hearing from heaven another way. I can't even enumerate the number of times I experienced what you said and feeling like an idiot for missing God's revelation as a leader tears me a new one...What a joke! The frequent experiences of leadership commandeering other folks' lives shows me what a FARCE this revelation business was/is! .....yeah it's a "revelation" business alright - an enterprising principle based on chief con artist vp to make a buck off folks!

Welcome to Grease Spot, Okey Dokey! I know exactly what you mean and I've had similar feelings…I agree – TWI never made me do anything…but doggone it, they perfected the art of manipulation, intimidation & deceit. The mindset that loyal followers adopted was almost like an invisible rudder attached to the will, which would go with the flow of all things TWI. Convincing folks that all other options are dead ends is really not giving people a choice. I used to hear it many different ways when I was in – but the sentiment was always the same – the only other choice you have to "the Word" is oblivion. Please note my signature at bottom of post – TWI were masters at intellectual tyranny. Does a scam artist make someone buy their bum stuff? Nope – sales by deceit. Does a TWI leader make someone give of their resources? Nope – but they sure can intimidate you by saying God won't even spit in your direction if you don't. Can TWI make someone stay with the organization? Nope – but through subtleties of manipulation – they can pull on the ol' heart strings ya know – "You're going to walk out on God & His Family?! How could you let down God & your fellow believers! After all this ministry has done for you. Where else are you going to find the rightly divided Word?" My wife & I sure do miss the many good folks we've met while it it. We left in 86…good news is – we've re-connected with a few and made some new friends here at Grease Spot as well! Life is good…freedom is great...please stick around - it only gets better from this point on, Love & peace T-Bone

Back in my Way-days, decision-making & "revelation" had to be one of the most stressful aspects of my life. I admit to a ton of stupid decisions on my part. Decisions to go W.O.W., Corps, NOT to go back and finish college, where to live, what to do for work, dealing with financial issues, etc. With the "exacting deliberation" of a deaf judge on American Idol – my choices always gravitated toward what I knew to be sanctioned by TWI – because it was familiar ground & there was nothing further I had to figure out. The stress came from trying to discern what was "good" versus "best". Was that "first thought"? Is this the center of God's will? Looking back, I now feel I had a thought process doomed to failure for it was based on the faulty assumption that God was trying to direct my every step – and if I had my "earballs" closed – I'd hear from heaven another way – another TWI follower - and if their name happened to have a "Reverend" of "Doctor" in front of it – that clinched it! Being inept at critical thinking and having any creative thinking strangled out of me always put me in a precarious position to handle critical issues – not to mention being strongly influenced by how vp modeled decision-making. His infamous God-talking-to-him-audibly/bringing-on-a-snowstorm story gave credence to whatever else he had to say about receiving revelation. Even his mannerisms in front of an audience reinforced this. I can remember times he'd stop mid-sentence – and after a pregnant pause mutter "Father says shut up". If I could Quantum Leap back to those days, I'd love to jack with certain people. Look some Gestapo-acting-reproof-spouting Corps dude right in the eye and say "Father says shut up." Or go to my Corps Coordinator and say "Father says this program is of the devil". Better yet – go back to my first Corps Promo meeting. Jump up right in the middle of the presentation and yell "God's not telling me to go - he's telling you to go." Then pull a Playtex Girdle over his head and say "Thus shall the Corps program bind your mind." ….ok, well I don't get paid for my stories…but I sure do feel better getting all that off my chest.

This is a great place for figuring out the bigger picture…Like when the pieces of the puzzle in my head fall in place with what someone else shared…kinda upsetting at first…but gaining a better understanding of my TWI experience & the mental baggage makes it worth it to me.

Interesting stuff Tzaia, thanks for mentioning this thread on your authentic self thread. Some things I've thought about from all this: TWI had a P.T. Barnum appeal – supposedly having something for everyone. Regarding "Rewards vary in kind, value, and generality", I think there was something about the TWI mindset that eclipsed a follower's sense of rewards, values, purpose, personal preferences, etc., whereby followers adopted a new value system. TWI's "intellectual" appeal was effective only to the extent followers embraced the organization's intellectual standards – which imho stacked up poorly against your average Joe's brainpower living in the real world. To paraphrase a commercial slogan for a clothing store – "A smart consumer is TWI's worst customer." The rewards of TWI involvement are geared toward deepening the follower's involvement with the organization. If I may elaborate on your statement, "The only person who wasn't tied into this system of rewards was the founder and his immediate posse. He set himself up as this all-knowing guy and got a fair amount of people convinced that he was the one with all the information necessary to get the special rewards that weren't available to the mainstream Christian." In a way vp & company were tied to this reward system in that every follower who strived for these rewards - be it more power, recognition, whatever – served to validate the kingdom of the big dogs. Howard Gardner's book "Changing Minds" talks about the different aspects of our thought process – sort of like gateways – or maybe investigators to check out an issue. The TWI mindset tended to short circuit the gateways – granting a free pass [acceptance] to an idea, under the pretext that it's spiritual. The mindset justifies irrational choices "cuz ya can't go by yer 5 senses, dontcha know. We're in a spiritual battle, dummy. Keep it spiritual stupid." Bait & switch is a mainstay of TWI! Whatever the initial appeal appears to be, followers eventually find themselves knee deep in an artificial world – a life-sucking fantasy. And it's NOT their fantasy – it's vp's.

Good stuff…in light of what you said I wanted to kick in my 2 cents. Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary defines "brainwashing" as: 1. a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas; 2. persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship. Thinking about TWI's manipulative, intimidating, deceptive, often overbearing slick pep talks and polished sales pitches – I'd say yes, bottom line we determined our own level of involvement and I'd put it in the same category as dealing with a crooked used car salesman. And considering that many of us were young, impressionable, rebellious, often disenchanted with religious or philosophical upbringing, and undeveloped critical thinking skills – the authentic self didn't have a fighting chance to "survive." I thought Watered Garden & Bramble made some good points how artificial people became through continued involvement. What happened to the authentic self?…Perhaps it was a selective form of suspended animation: certain aspects of our mind were overwhelmed by TWI's tactics and thus temporarily suspended – i.e. critical & creative thinking skills, personal preferences, deep desires, etc….yeah it was my decision to enter the suspended animation chamber – because I wanted all the neat benefits they promised in the sales brochure.

Yup – I think that was their standard operating procedure most of the time…Whether it was intentional or not – I tend to think some of PFAL was that way. vp would zero in on some details, often with little regard to the overall picture – like 4 crucified, the comma placement in Jesus' words from the cross, or a definition of a word. It's funny how he handled II Peter 1:20, 21 – getting into Greek definitions to assert that the passage addressed the interpretation of Scripture – he totally ignored the CONTEXT which stresses the ORIGIN of the Scriptures. Oops – sorry – didn't mean to derail the thread on stringing chairs…just wanted to make a point how some leaders were good at stringing people along. :)

Paw, congrats on the weight loss and a big thanks to you and the moderators for a wonderful forum - it's done wonders for helping me sort out stuff.

U Betcha! ...and when I was in college - I used to live off the vending machine cuz it had a chocolate covered peanut butter candy bar called "No Jelly"....Sure wished they'd bring it back - it had a short run in the early 70s. I Googled images of No Jelly and found mention of it on someone's blog - as a campaign button -

Great posts Brain Fixed [and everyone else], and welcome to Grease Spot! I think you deserve a lot more credit than you're giving yourself. Lately I've been thinking of a twofold issue: how effective TWI was in duping folks and yet there are a number of people who for one reason or another leave it. Don't have any great insight here - just that I believe it boils down to the indomitable spirit of man [A/V Department, please cue the "Rocky" theme at this time]. I don't think it matters how you've got to this point of realization or who helped you along the journey - the main thing is you're here. I'm not referring to your eyeballs staring at my post right now :blink: - but you're out of that insanity and working on understanding your experience/dealing with residual issues. It takes a brave soul to re-activate so many areas of "da brain"...to truly think for yourself, to question, embrace emotions, make decisions, etc. Al Franken's character Stewart Smalley on SNL spoke a great truth, "Only you can help you." ....It's partly: re-discovering who you are, re-claiming your true personality, understanding who you're becoming now, exploring/developing the different aspects of your life, detecting & dealing with mental/emotional baggage. Sometimes it felt like awakening from suspended animation and playing catch up with reality. Except I aged while in suspended animation - oh bummer. :( A round of cappuccino for everyone Love & peace T-Bone

Thanks, Don't Worry...always enjoy your posts. till we post again

Thanks for mentioning that. My criticism is against the organization, certain leaders and a toxic philosophy that commandeers unsuspecting souls into its ranks. I think a powerful dynamic of the TWI mindset is the complexity of twisted doctrines & practices that over time tend to frustrate conscience and reason. I mentioned the labyrinthine mindset in my previous post. If memory serves me right - I think in Greek Mythology, the labyrinth was such a complicated design of mazes & dead ends that is was the perfect system to imprison someone. I’m of the opinion, that if you squelch conscience and reason you’ve pretty much incapacitate one’s ability to detect & deal with moral issues and sabotage problem-solving skills on non-moral issues. I believe that anyone who stuck around TWI for awhile was susceptible to this mind-numbing process to some degree. Also, in thinking about what you said of people that need to stop lying to themselves – I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents on humility. Popular TWI leaders had an elaborate façade of false humility. We’d hear stuff like: “I wish I were the man I know to be…If there was another group that had more of the rightly divided Word - I’d join it…I have no problem forgiving someone because I know what God forgave me for…” I think Rick Warren put it nice & simple – true humility is not thinking less of yourself – it’s thinking of yourself less. Reflecting on times past - I guess the folks that have a “good rating” in my book now – meaning they’re NOT in the rotten category - were folks who didn’t do things for ego-sake or blathered on about how humble they were – or gloried in how many classes they put together or made sure you knew how much they’d given to the cause. It was folks who seemed to genuinely care about others…usually focused their attention & energy more on others than themselves. As far as the rotten ones – we’ve all met them…doesn’t matter what level of leadership they were or just an average follower in a Twig. They adamantly supported & shoved it down your throat… TO A FAULT – “the greatness of the ministry.” There was no other agenda than what emanates from Headquarters. Yeah, I can think of a few lies I’ve quit living: Thinking TWI and true Christianity were one and the same. Thinking PFAL is equivalent to the Bible. Thinking that mastery of PFAL translates to mastery of the Bible and reality. Thinking all I have to do is speak in tongues and everything will turn out okay. Thinking any struggles I had with conscience or reason were my five senses “battling the Word.” Thinking that the reason TWI had a meltdown was because I didn’t make the Word my own, my believing failed, or I let the devil trick me out of it. …ok…I’m all talked out for now…love & peace T-Bone

I agree with all the previous posters who have said TWI was rotten to begin with. I don’t mean to offend here – but in my opinion it’s a treacherous frame of mind to assume TWI was ever based on the Bible, fearing God, loving God & neighbor, or had anything to do with real Christianity. As far as I’m concerned, the “best” TWI leadership had a real knack for pulling out the trump card of pride anytime the integrity of the organization was challenged – as if to say “How dare you question us! You’re really attacking the Word!” That’d put the kibosh on anyone actually thinking. Using the pride card was always a smart move to keep folks in check. Yeah – I’ve done a lot of soul-searching since I left. Realized I had a big ego built upon the proud TWI mindset. I’ve also forgiven myself for being so dumb as to fall for their grand deception. Thinking back on my time in Delusionville – I recall how adept certain leaders were in making Scripture conform to circumstance – basically whatever suited TWI’s agenda. Delusionville was corrupt from the get-go…through the subtlety of malleable doctrines and by instilling a labyrinthine mindset, they had provided me with a glorious awe-inspiring clothespin so I didn’t have to notice the bull$h1t all along my journey. Of course, that’s just my opinion from personal experience. What went wrong with TWI spiritually? I don’t think they ever had it right. Talking about the corruptness and why did it happen – consider the character of the founding president.

wow - it's been awhile - going to try this in another post

That's my kind of poll! By the way, favorite flavor is peanut butter...straight up or on anything.

I voted that it is still viable. I may have a small inkling of Paw's feelings when I think of the times I've been hot & heavy on Grease Spot. It does take time and energy to post, of course – but this place is so special to me - in that I tend to get so wrapped up in a line of thought, enjoy exploring all its aspects while getting to know some folks with a similar experience. I do think Grease Spot has had a very positive impact on my life and has definitely affected the way I look at religion and belief systems. I hope Grease Spot NEVER goes away - and pray that things work out for its continuity.

Thanks for the link, Paw - he comes across as a very sharp & articulate fella.

Thinking about my experiences – I'd say genuine friendships were few and far between all the other relationships crammed into my life by TWI. I think authentic bonds were formed when we'd…I dunno…suspend…or maybe look past those TWI predilections lodged in our heads. From what I can remember, my other relationships had a manufactured flavor to them...a shallow…superficial feel to it. My wife and I have talked about this same topic a few times – usually wind up saying we let way too many people get involved in our lives just because it was expected of us. I think we lost a sense of boundaries, assumed ministry-jargon & activities were authentic modes of communication and mistook shared experiences for real intimacy.

Have a gloriously relaxing day...and then some!

Hope you get a charge out of these birthday wishes!

An interesting thing John Knapp mentioned on another thread was the strengths developed by many former cult members – here's a link he gave http://knappfamilycounseling.com/cultstrengths.html And what that has to do with what's already been said on this thread is that I think our journey through life is a collage of our experiences, relationships, successes, failures…at times, being influenced by others, sometimes having an effect on others - the authentic self is in there somewhere, maybe not always prominent. And perhaps strengths and qualities are being forged in adversity…sometimes it's down right funny to think how I got talked into being a salesman or a branch leader - neither is my personality flavor. So for me, sometimes it's been about remembering what I was like before TWI…there's some reflection on who I was while in TWI and especially the times where I catch a glimpse of the authentic self underneath all that cult paraphernalia. Yup – there's still challenges there…but I tend to view my life thus far as a success story. Hey, I got out of TWI! I dunno – if I could alter the past – undo bad decisions like getting involved in TWI – I think all the wisdom, strength, resourcefulness, empathy, etc. that one develops in the recovery process would be absent. Human beings are amazingly resilient creatures – which attest to the indomitable human spirit! Yes, getting outside the box is a good mind picture. What tyrants they were – to keep us caged up within invisible bars – the TWI mindset…to ignore personal preferences, to squelch critical & creative thinking, to fore go dreams, desires, & ambitions. Speaking of getting back into hobbies and trying different things – I'm all for that! I'm enjoying playing the bass, messing with photography and of late trying my hand at creative writing. Who knows if any of this will go beyond just messing around – and who cares – I'm just having a lot of fun…and Bramble talked about reconnecting. That's been a big deal for me – not only with devoting more time & energy to my own family but in becoming more comfortable around coworkers – without that elitist/paranoid attitude that I had back then – I've figured out we're all bozos on the same bus. :)

I just love that clip! Think they ought to rename the original video Spazlete of the Spirit in honor of Loy Boy's fancy footwork...uhm...well, he was top dog at the time, so maybe go with Spaz-Elite of the Spirit.