T-Bone

Sounds like a dictionary definition.. . as in Way-ugly: 1. a. display of true colors by TWI leadership. [also see Brood of Vipers in Diapers] b. acting in a manner that reveals the dark underbelly of TWI. 2. frightfully offensive when viewed in plain sight; 3. Unpleasant to any sense of decency. 4. a naked wolf [i.e. sans the sheep suit]. 5. a weaponized toxin in candy-coated form [cf. Grease Spot Café]. Brood of Vipers in Diapers: TWI leadership training program. Grease Spot Café: a cure for the common cult; usually prescribed to someone sick of TWI. Hey, I'll spring for another round of cappuccino - maybe we should spike round 2 - how does a little Amaretto sound? [edited to correct spelling of Amaretto - geez I must be slipping.. . getting old or something - that's one of my favorite liqueurs ]

Welcome to Grease Spot, Old Skool ! Have a cup of cappuccino on me. This is a great place to unload & sort things out. Glad you could make it.

haven't seen that program - but yeah, it's some serious stuff alright. In 75 our WOW family was jogging on an outdoor track in the middle of a thunderstorm - being the superconquerors that we were back then - just as we passed a light pole a bolt of lightning hit it. Sounded and felt like someone fired a cannon right behind us! Shook the bejeebers out of us! Also being a technician, I'll say this - lightning is one of the most dreaded events in my profession - a gazillion service calls to repair/replace equipment that got zapped is a standing testimony to its 2nd great woe of destruction - killing/injuring a human life being of course the first. ok - so much for bringing a little gravity into the levity

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I would like to address something on this thread that may benefit Christian folks who still hold PFAL in high regard or wrestle with the idea that they are in some way being rebellious toward God by questioning the things of PFAL. However, this thread is not about debating the fact that vp plagiarized a number of sources with the assumption that he was under divine guidance to assemble it for the benefit of mankind. And it's not about debating specific stuff from Bullinger, Stiles, BG Leonard, Kenyon, etc. I really don't wish for this thread to be relegated to the doctrinal forum. I'm not here for a theological debate. If anyone wishes to discuss theology you're welcome to jump in on any of the existing threads or start one of your own. And if you're just interested in finding out what theological books I'm into now, please feel free to PM me.. . ok, back to the regularly scheduled program already in progress. I want to get into what made vp's stuff appear to be so great in my mind. I'm not knocking the stuff of these other guys, like Bullinger – matter of fact, getting more into Bullinger after I left TWI is what led me into systematic theology – but more on that in a minute. What I really would like to see is a discussion of the façade vp constructed to give PFAL the appearance of being not only just the best thing available on the Bible but the only thing besides the Bible that is backed by divine authority – or as I remember how one TWI leader put it "PFAL is God's epistle to the 20th century church." Since I left TWI, one of my hobbies has been reading different systematic theologies. "Systematic theology" sounds complicated but here's one definition of it I like because it boils it down to something simple and clearly defined. From "Nelson's New Christian Dictionary", editor George Thomas Kurian, page 737: "systematic theology Branch of theology drawing upon the whole of Scripture, relating various portions to one another so as to form a coherent system. It employs biblical, historical, and philosophical resources to illuminate the practical applications of God's truth." End of excerpt ~~ I've enjoyed reading/analyzing systematic theologies over the years. There's also been an interesting tangent of sorting out and reexamining many of the things I simply absorbed while in TWI. It's only been since I joined Grease Spot that I realized my old ministry mindset definitely had some flawed assumptions - like thinking the Bible interprets itself and that PFAL is just about equivalent to the Bible. Matter of fact, there's buzz words for putting PFAL on par with the Bible frequently thrown around – like: "the accuracy of the Word" or "the accuracy & integrity of the Word". The distinction "accuracy of" implies not just the Bible is involved – but through whatever process & standards, a system of thought has been derived from the Bible. The fact that the phrase is coupled with the general term "the Word" implies a comprehensive coverage of the Bible – in other words, a systematic theology. When you consider the process and standards of vp [which have been discussed on numerous threads], you might just see the relevancy of my first quote from Nelson's Dictionary and the challenge to the TWI mindset. On page 83 of the chapter "That Man May Be Perfect" of PFAL, in reference to the John 5:39 directive to "search the scriptures", vp says "It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille's writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, 'Search the scriptures.. .' because all Scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures – they are God-breathed." End of excerpt ~~ Interesting how vp just slips in the idea of his stuff being God-breathed. Also notice he "humbly" states not ALL his stuff will necessarily be God-breathed – meaning some of it is God-breathed. It's also interesting how he mentions some prominent theologians & evangelists, placing what they said on a lower status than his by the absence of the qualifier "not all that ___ writes will necessarily be God-breathed". By this omission one could infer none of what they said was God-breathed. From page 178 of "The Way Living in Love" by Elena S. Whiteside, vp cites God as the source of his scholastic wisdom: "And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others." End of excerpt ~~ vp's body of work [which I usually refer to in a shorthand form by saying PFAL] is nothing more than his version of what the Bible says according to his methods of interpretation. He uses biblical [scripture], historical [referencing other theologians], and philosophical [investigation of a matter by means of logical reasoning and the critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs] resources to interpret the Bible and present a "coherent" body of knowledge – a systematic theology. Oh, and let's not forget the extra special bonus feature if one feels so inclined to acknowledge it – PFAL [in part or whole – your choice] being God-breathed. My contention is that vp's systematic theology is strongly based on the persona of vp being the man of God for this day and time and hour – and has little scriptural/intellectual basis. Unlike the typical theological debates I'm now familiar with [Grease Spot's doctrinal forum or on Christian websites] where good arguments are usually grounded in Scripture and strong logic, what I remember most about TWI when it came to settling any issue – was an appeal to [directly or indirectly] PFAL. I mentioned some of my concerns and doubts to fellow Corps in the aftermath of "Passing of the Patriarch". The typical response which more or less insinuated that I was rebelling against God's man & ministry is probably the closest I'll ever get to having a near-Martin Luther experience, nailing the 95 theses to the church door. "Once a man truly sees the integrity of the Word, the only alternative to walking by the Word is oblivion." Page 90 of "Lifelines: Quotations of Victor Paul Wierwille". No thanks – one man's oblivion is another man's freedom. It's been some 23 years since I left TWI and life is just fine! That's 8,395 times of passing midnight on the old LCM clock and I still haven't experienced any symptoms of grease spot syndrome – though I am currently a Grease Spot by choice. My point is calling a spade a spade. When the smoke & mirrors are cleared away, PFAL appears to be nothing more than a pretentious eclectic slipshod patchwork systematic theology of dubious production by a deluded theologian-wannabe. [edited because I could - well, honestly cuz I couldn't get it write right the first time ]

uhm.. . isn't it a little scary how much of this stuff we remember :unsure: .. .maybe I could use a little brainwashing about now - I mean that literally.. . or maybe an exorcism.. . or enema.. . or something.

and it's not because they've mastered "How to Win Friends and Influence People"

Haven't given it much thought - we've got a Halloween party planned for Friday night, a bunch of our daughters' friends; we've done that a couple of years ago; well, actually a couple of ladies who help coordinate some of the sports for kids with special needs does all the planning - we just open up our house as hosts. If it's like last time, we did so much fun stuff didn't need to watch anything.. . But I'm thinking we'll kick back Saturday, hand out candy to trick or treaters, and watch "Young Frankenstein". I have been in a monster watching mood lately. Went to see "Zombieland" with my son a friend from work and his son. Loved it! Funny movie - although my son & I think "Shawn of the Dead" was funnier. My friend recommended "Dawn of the Dead" - so I've got our UVerse DVR set up to record it. Watched "From Dusk Till Dawn" the other day - weird & funny. I've gotta be careful - this new UVerse DVR thing is so convenient to use. I punch in a movie title and if it's showing in the near future on any channel it brings it up in a selectable menu to record. I could easily drop out of life and spend all my time watching TV if it wasn't for the little detail of needing a steady paycheck.

More news from the frontiers of backwoods science [actually this was a proofreader's oversight – or possibly an interpolation - it should read "the WayWoods science" – then news reporting fits like a hand in daddy's cookie jar with a map-and-a-mattress sacknuss and scientology precision].. . I think this was from the Sunday Night Teaching Tape "Carnal versus Spiritual" by vp: Psychologists talk about the subconscious mind – they've never been there! It's the mind of the spirit. Inventions come by way of the spirit. Countries without Christ do not invent. It's not because you have such a high IQ, but because God has such a high IQ. ~~ and some things I remember from Advanced Classes: Neuralgia cells in the brain respond to the direct application of energy – that's revelation, baby! It's God in Christ behind every cell of your being. Everything gives off something. If you drove the nails to hang a door with the love of God – a hundred years from now someone walking through that doorway will get blessed. That's all for now till neuralgia cells receive more distant radio signals from a black hole - - no, no, not the ones up in space - the one in New Knoxville. channeling it all for you T-Bone [Come in Mr. Fletcher. Can you read me Mr. Fletcher? Come in Mr. Fletcher, over. You've flown past the runway several times – you're now 2 hours overdue. Did you fall asleep or something?]

perhaps a deleted scene

I have a big problem with threads like this. I enjoy reading every thought provoking post – and as my mind runs off in so many directions, I get frustrated trying to write something that makes sense. So anyway, with apologies for the rambling thoughts here's my 2 cents and I'm feeling kinda generous today – so I may up it to 3. I do think cultural conditioning plays a big part in this. And I like the way George put it – folks engaging in cognitive dissonance when exercising their chosen faith. At this stage in life, I've come to the conclusion I've made my own religion – there's some cognitive dissonance going on in my head for sure – but also I am very aware of making a conscious decision on certain ethical standards articulated, as far as me assigning some level of importance, priority or some qualifying distinction in my scale of values. Maybe you'd call it my processed faith. Reflecting on my journey of faith so far – I see how I've gone from one extreme to the other in terms of my take on moral issues. My inherited faith is Catholicism – growing up in an Italian family in New York – no surprise there. Catholicism definitely puts the fear of God in your soul – and you walk around feeling guilty about everything you think or do. There was some relief though – I'd hold off on confessing my worst sins to our parish priest for fear of immediate divine retribution; I'd wait till our family visited my cousin's in another parish: "Hey mom, I'm gonna go with Jimmy to confession tonight.. . uhm, just cause he wants some company." As a little boy I have a distinct memory of watching my best friend do cruel things to a turtle – finally killing it as a final act of "mercy" – and the horror, sorrow and worry churning in my little brain thinking "oh no, he's gonna go to hell for this!" Next up, my chosen faith – getting into TWI. Amazing how malleable there code of ethics is – if you even want to call it that. Sin was softened to "broken fellowship". In PFAL a warm & fuzzy moral code is proffered "as long as you love God & neighbor you can do as you fool well please", however the love God & neighbor thing was never clearly defined in TWI – relative ethics seemed to be the standard operating procedure. Couple that with vp's Gnostic perspective – that splits reality into two totally separate realms: spirit and flesh – and never the twain shall meet, so what is done in the flesh bears no consequences to the spirit. These things were definitely factors in setting up a platform for cognitive dissonance to happen in my mindset. A wonderful sedative to the conscience actually. With a mindset like that – it's little wonder I could be at a Family Corps pajama party with vp showing his favorite porn video and getting lewd with a sixteen year old girl in front of everybody – and no moral alarms went off in my head. vp was viewed as so spiritually mature – that this stuff was not sin to him. Needless to say, TWI did set the standard for hypocrisy – and I meant this point to address the worst-case scenario of Oakspear's first post. In TWI hypocrisy is a learned skill – typically starts out as learning to put on a twig-face toward others yet being an absolute a$hole behind closed doors. Present day – at this stage of development, my current "processed" faith is perhaps a product of reexamining my inherited faith and streamlining the whole gamut of mortal and venial sins to a simpler view of the 10 commandments and the golden rule. I think many cultures develop codes & standards along similar lines to support & protect values common to the people – life, property, honesty, marriage, etc. Maybe I have more of a live & let live attitude now – a mellowing in age. I watched "Milk" last night – really enjoyed the movie and liked the focus on the political machinery on both sides of the issue. Now seeing two guys kissing just doesn't turn me on – but I was really turned off by the efforts of religious zealots to demonize and persecute homosexuals. [edited to obtain an NC-17 rating ]

Granted there's always newcomers from an older age bracket but I agree with you in that being exceptional. Imho, young people will always be the primary hunting grounds of cults because of their naiveté. There's a lot of valid reasons why people join cults. Cults work to circumvent a person's critical & creative thinking processes – they succeed by convincing folks the cult has exactly what they've been looking for. Some younger folks just don't have enough experiences under their belt to be wary in situations like that - so the cults don't have to work so hard. Predators of any type usually go for the weak - in this case weak in analytical skills. For what it's worth I Googled median age of cult members and found on page 100 of "Cults and New Religious Movements: A Report of the American Psychiatric Association from the Committee on Psychiatry and Religion" edited by Marc Galanter, the median age to be 22, it's somewhat dated – copyright 1989 – but imho some younger folks of today can still be just as gullible. http://books.google....page&q=&f=false

Other than flitting about on a myriad of subjects it looks like the biggest problem in telling your story is getting the facts right – as Cynic pointed out.

I think it's admirable for a person to admit they don't know what they're talking about. I do it all the time. :B)

Good catch, Cynic ! Just goes to show ya - it's important to check out references. Ok, back to the drawing board.. . talk amongst yourselves. <_<

Could you be more specific. What "these" did you study in college? <_< Perhaps your judgment is clouded by a TWI bias. Grease Spot has never used any outreach programs. I think a wide variety of folks [ex-TWI, pro-TWI, thinking-about-leaving-TWI, curious-but-yellow-about-leaving-TWI, etc.] came to this website by word of mouth or just surfing the net. Grease Spot is not like a twig, where one is invited but you have to check your personal viewpoint at the door and only talk of positive experiences is allowed. Anybody can join Grease Spot [you don't even have to be invited] and even with a cursory reading of threads one will find a broad spectrum of opinions about anything to do with TWI – and an interesting conglomeration of good & bad experiences to boot. I can think of a few reasons why a recent convert to TWI would be non-responsive to a Grease Spotters' appeal to reason, experience, observation, decency or compassion. A typical convert is young – so they haven't developed critical thinking skills yet; they don't have many lesson-of-life experiences and it usually takes some time in TWI for the romance to wear off. But give them a few years of entanglement in the parasitic cult – and they may start seeing some cracks in the mindset. It's the cumulative effect of getting burned a few times that stings the mental faculties into awareness. But then again, they may just practice the "renewed mind" – with glassy-eyed determination, stiff upper lip and a dismissive "There I go again - trusting the five senses. Get thee behind me Satan."

Not sure if I'm thinking in the same vein as you Jeff – but I changed "man worship" to "hero worship", as another angle on your topic or maybe it's just what popped into my head after reading this thread. So anyway – here's my 2 cents - but it may be in a foreign currency. Back in the day, my attitude toward certain leaders in TWI may have been a lot like hero worship - looking expectantly toward someone who I deem superior to myself – superior in character, capabilities, accomplishments, etc. These people [like vp & LCM] didn't actually possess these qualities & qualifications – it was just my perception of them – a faulty viewpoint that was subliminally suggested throughout TWI. Thinking about the idea of heroes and how "the hero" is usually the central figure in a story – I would say that pretty much sums up the role of vp & LCM while I was in TWI. Each acting president took the place of the "absent Christ" as far as I'm concerned. Teachings never focused on what Jesus did in the gospels or abstracting what would Jesus do in present-day scenarios. It was learning how to manifest power via vp's foundational & advanced classes. Heck, LCM reinforced the hero worship thing with his "vp & me" video I saw in the Corps. We looked to the "heroes" – the big dogs of TWI, to interpret the Bible for us and to show us the correct application and they didn't stop at that – their influence grew more powerful over the folks who got more committed to the ministry. If you've ever went through any of TWI's programs you know how it gave leaders a free pass to stick their nose in every aspect of your life. So in this hero worship we relinquished the power to shape our own destiny. And thinking about hero worship, TWI, and where God fit into this picture. It's not that we didn't acknowledge a certain place for God in our lives - it's just that we usually wound up allotting Him a very small place. TWI heroes loomed so large in the thought-life of followers they eclipsed a clear "view" of God.

I think I remember the title of that episode: "How to keep the Klingons off Uranus" [edited for television ]

Yup Krys you've got that right!

yeah - but did you notice the bones are crossed! Typically crossed fingers are used to wish for good luck or to nullify a promise.With this being the new cover of the PFAL syllabus, I'm thinking they're already reneging on the benefits of the class they promised the students when they signed up.. . well, I guess it could work the other way too, as in - "good luck on getting involved with one helluva life-sucking, money-grubbing, two-bit cult."

The following is from the "Tyndale Bible Dictionary", editors Walter Elwell and Philip Comfort, co.2001, page 336, under the sub topic of "capital punishment" of the main entry "Criminal Law and Punishment" stoning is listed as # 5: "Stoning was the most common Hebrew death penalty. The first stones were thrown by the prosecution witnesses, who were then joined by spectators. Stoning was the punishment for certain religious offenses (Lv 24:16; Nm 15:32-36; Dt 13:1-10; 17:2-5), adultery (Dt 22:23-24), chilled sacrifice (Lv 20:2), divination of spirits (Lv 20:27), and rebellion (Dt 21:18-21). Before his conversion, the apostle Paul witnesses and consented to the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7:58-59). Paul himself later survived a stoning at Lystra (14:19). In Roman times, a person would occasionally be stoned as he stood on a gallows." End of excerpt ~~ And from the same book, page 18 & 19 under the main entry "Adultery": "…Jesus sharpened the OT's definition of adultery by applying it to a man's thought life. Any man who fantasizes in lust (as distinct from being just tempted) has committed adultery in mind and intention, even though there is no physical contact (Mt 5:27-28; cf. Jb 31:1, 9). The Bible's condemnation of adultery is written into the heart of the OT law, prophecy, and wisdom literature. The Ten Commandments ban it unequivocally (Ex 20:14; Dt 5:18). The prophets list it among offenses that attract God's anger and judgment (Jer 23:11-14; Ez 22:11; Mal 3:5). And the book of Proverbs scorns it as a senseless act by which a man destroys himself (Prv 6:23-35; cf. 7:6-27). The NT echoes that clear condemnation. Where there is no repentance, adultery excludes those who practice it from God's kingdom (I Cor 6:9). It is the very opposite of love of one's neighbor (Rom 13:9-10), and it stands under the judgment of God himself (Heb 13:4). In the OT the penalty for adultery is death – for both the man and the woman (Lv 20:10; Dt 22:22). The same applies if the woman is single but engaged to another man, assuming she has not been raped (in which case only the man is to be executed – Dt 22:23-27). The refrain :You will cleanse the land from evil" (Dt 22:24) shows that adultery was considered a serious threat to society's health, not simply an attack on the family lives of the two people involved." End of excerpt ~~ According to the above references I cited, stoning seems to be a standard procedure in Bible times for a number of offenses and as far as how often it was applied in cases of adultery – familiarity with our sinful human nature would reasonably assume that it was implemented on occasion. I think stoning IS an execution – capital punishment – the penalty for breaking God's law. It also serves as a deterrent to others who are tempted to commit the same sin. In that regard, it may be considered as one means of getting rid of an instance of sin. The execution of the offender guarantees that person cannot continue to commit further acts of the same crime and the perception of the capital punishment by others usually tends to make that particular crime less attractive to commit. As I think of capital punishment in general, in the context of our present day I feel no conflict with my belief in a loving AND just God who does forgive and promises hope. If one truly repents of a horribly sin they've committed – I firmly believe God does forgive them. And though they may be now squared away in God's spiritual books – I don't think that would undo any physical consequences of the sin. There is hope for us all - true - and if I've truly repented in this life, there is the future to look forward to, when God restores all things - undoing the consequences of sin, lives injured and destroyed by war, disease, murder, adultery, etc. If I got drunk, drove my car into the oncoming lane, killing all those in the other car (except for a twelve year old boy who will be quadriplegic for life) as well as my passenger [a lady I've been having an adulterous affair with], shoot and kill several of the police as they show up in response to a 911 call by an eyewitness because I figure they'll arrest me and I'll then lose my job and my wife will leave me – BUT – while in jail I beg God's forgiveness, would that change certain things? It does not bring anyone back from the dead nor completely restore the health & well-being of the 12 year old boy, nor restore my marriage & career to its former state. I think that's a travesty of justice AND love when a person tries to pull the "get-out-of-jail" card with the "God-has-forgiven-me-now-so-you-can-let-me-off-the-hook" mentality - it's basically irresponsible not wanting to face the reality of the consequences of extremely sinful behavior. [edited for a PG-13 rating ]

And what if the response is "The heck with all those guys, I'm going to check out a local church"? I don't particularly care for his one and only option. This sure reminds me of vp's manipulative bull$hi+, tugging on the old heart-strings of guilt "if you leave this ministry you're walking out on God." I remember an old letter I received from John Lynn promoting his "ministry" – and something he said always sticks out in my mind when I think of anything he's been involved with. Likening his off-shoot group to the children of Israel fleeing Egypt, he said something to the effect of "we've left the bondage of Egypt and took all their gold with us." Implying TWI doctrines were at the core of his off-shoot. Seems like the TWI mindset is right there along with their doctrines – maybe it's impossible to separate the two. Mstar, I love the Picard picture - my feelings exactly!

A little hobby of mine is reading different systematic theologies. Something that occurred to me after thinking about this thread is that the more detailed we get in articulating the different topics of our faith, it seems there's more material to polarize folks – differences are fostered – and small issues begin to loom large. Differences of opinion is not a bad thing – I just think it can get ugly like Jeff said – one group damning all other groups to hell; or thinking their bundle of doctrines is superior. Been there, done that. Considering the fact that the New Testament documents emerged quite a number of years after the birth of the Church, it seems reasonable to assume one of the reasons for the rapid and unified growth of the Church early on was the lack of some cumbersome formalized theology. It's just a guess – just thinking as a technician now: simple is usually the best way to go – it's efficient and there's a lot less that can get screwed up. I think it was FF Bruce's book "Jesus: Lord & Savior" that points out the only two things the early Church preached were Jesus is Lord and that He was raised from the dead. Like I said checking out systematic theologies is a hobby of mine. And I'm just as guilty as anyone in maintaining a tight hold on my pet doctrines. I think that's why I like Grease Spot. Not only for the eye-opening diversity of viewpoints but also for the subtle challenge that presents itself to me – just how essential is this or that to my theology? And more importantly – what is the practical consequence of it? I have to admit – since I've joined Grease Spot I've gotten more comfortable with holding a lot of my belief system in a state of flux. I don't belong to some local church – so there's no pressure to kowtow to some leader or creed [i'm kinda done with that if you haven't noticed already]. Yup – got my own sect now. A force of one. The mission of my sect? It's to figure out what God wants me to do since I fled from that Mickey Mouse sect based out of New Knoxville. It's a lifetime journey [said in my best Forrest Gump]. I'm through with using my pet theology as a litmus test for evaluating others. Been there, done that too. Other than coming to Grease Spot and spewing out my screwy 2 cents on things, I don't spend a whole lot of time talking about Bible stuff with folks I meet. Guess that's why I come to Grease Spot.