T-Bone

Waysider, every time you've mentioned vp's unforgiveable sin/Billy I just cringe at the destructive nature of toxic doctrines.. .Coincidentally, you got out your old silly-bus and last night I happened to review the unforgiveable sin covered in PFAL & The Word's Way - - ugh not the best choice for reading in bed. Anyway here's a few thoughts: Page 319 of PFAL, John Doe of body & soul has no spirit in him; he has only 2 choices: confess Jesus as Lord or believe the Devil is the true God. End of Reference. Hey vp, chapter and verse please! Check out the context of Matthew 12:22-32 where the unforgiveable sin is mentioned. Jesus had just healed a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute. The Pharisees said it was by Beelzebub the prince of demons Jesus drives out demons. Following Jesus' reply to the Pharisees about a kingdom divided against itself, that He drives out demons by the Spirit of God & etc. and then when you get to verse 32 – it seems Jesus is turning the tables on the Pharisees' by using their false accusation as an example of an unforgiveable sin – it's NOT blasphemy against the Son of Man but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Which the Pharisees had just done by attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the Devil. I'm not sure on where I'm going with this other than I don't see Jesus mentioning anything about someone believing the Devil is the true God in this passage – or any of the other gospels that cover this sin.. . Has anyone ever been in meetings where vp lambasted other ministries and churches? I have!! Man oh man, he'd go on about wrong seed running this or that group, or the head of that group is deceived by devil spirits, the pope is wrong seed, the Trinity was thought up by wrong seed, you gotta be possessed to believe in the Trinity.. .Uh oh, you don't think vp committed the unforgiveable sin, do ya? note to self: DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT read any PFAL material before going to bed!!! .. . bad dreams.

Not sure about the origin of this particular vp doctrine – don't know if he "borrowed" it from other sources or came up with it all on his own – but no longer subscribe to it either for philosophical reasons [mainly that man was created in the image of God and still retains that spiritual aspect although now it's in a fallen state; another big reason I don't buy into it is that it smacks of vp's conspiracy theory mindset, i.e. the Illuminati, the Devil is behind everything, even Mickey Mouse is born again of the wrong seed <_< , etc.]. As a sidelight to this subject – maybe it was around the time frame of the Athletes of the Spirit production – LCM was getting into devil spirit/wrong seed stuff big time in his podium teachings and informal settings. Might be a little jumbled up here – sorry – but if I remember the essence of it - He described the seed of the serpent as being like a "permanent wedgie" [ – just slipped that in to keep the young folks awake – although me and a few Corps buds did have quite a few jokes about that] – ahem, that's "permanent wedge" placed in the person's [here's where I'm fuzzy on a detail] mind or heart or soemthing – giving [again fuzzy here] the devil permanent access into their heart & life or something bad like that; I also vaguely remember it being put as a kind of permanent possession – you couldn't cast it out. There also may have been ideas from other upper leadership elaborating on this – and I do remember someone – if not LCM himself, remarking how since the devil cannot create it could not be a literal seed like what God places in the believer. Don't know if I'd give any of these guys credit for trying to explore/articulate some PFAL doctrine like typical scholars developing a systematic theology. Seems to me now that it was their usual intellectually ludicrous endeavor to somehow reinforce the PFAL frame of thought. Or maybe just to re-market PFAL with a demonstration of plumbing the ineffably greatness of the exceedingly abundant depths of vp's cesspool [aka vp's mind]. Wrong seed was the chewy caramel center of the Advanced Class – but I don't think it was such a big deal for your average PFAL grad who hadn't taken the Advanced Class.. . For whatever reason the PFAL session on the unforgiveable sin was pulled from the class – I think it was already missing around the time I first took it in 1974 – but I could be wrong on the time period, I'm terrible with dates; my wife is a lot better at piecing together events/incidents/time frames of this kind of stuff. Anyway – grads of the class would watch the unforgiveable sin session shortly after the completing the class. Ever since I left, every once and a great while I've wondered about the reason why they pulled the session from the class. Did it cause too many issues in the minds of new grad? As it is, there were always a few folks in every class [God bless 'em] who had a gazillion questions at the end of the class – much to the chagrin of the class instructor. When I think about the practical consequence of a doctrine – except for the fact that this subject wasn't something they frequently pushed in public teachings like the law of believing – it might rank pretty high on the here's-something-to-royally-screw-up-your-life scale. Needless to say, it's a pretty rank doctrine anyway. My wife will always remember the crapstorm in her Advanced Class Twig generated from a discussion of the unforgiveable sin - my wife questioning the apprentice Corps Twig Leader's "definitive answer" on how one specifically commits this sin. Tonto finally did receive an "official answer" through LCM himself yelling in front of the student body [LCM was assisting vp in the class – by the way there's a picture from our Advanced Class in my gallery/Blast from the Past album - titled "Fat Man & Little Boy" in honor of the nuclear devastation wrought by vp & LCM] – and "the answer" was simply you do not question leadership [in Tonto's case – her Twig Leader] http://www.greasespo...post__p__210357 A real turn off for all you critical thinking fans out there for sure – I mean that literally. ~~ As to the serpent's seed of Genesis 3:15; there's also "her seed". I usually think of the Messianic reference which is a remote application – the enmity climaxing with the final one-on-one confrontation between Christ and the Devil. However, keeping in mind the general fight of good versus evil prominent throughout the Bible leads me to think the "seeds" have an immediate sense as well – i.e. all descendants. People could be considered descendants in a metaphorical sense in terms of something in common, sharing the same traits; linked through the heritage of intangible attributes. To be consistent with the concept in other passages I think a less literal interpretation is in order. In Ephesians 2:3 Paul speaks of a time past when Christians were by nature the children of wrath, even as others but by Ephesians 5:1 he says to be followers of God as dear children. "Children" like "seed" being a reflection of their families – possessing some affinity to a group and though not spelled out here, a common bond could simply be sharing a legacy of beliefs. On page 771 of "The Dictionary of Biblical Imagery", editors Ryken, Wilhoit, Longman, under the "SEED" entry it says the seed image often denotes human lineage or heritage – the seed of Eve and of the serpent are opposed from the Fall onward. Poets and prophets describe the races as the seed of the righteous [Proverbs 11:21] or the seed of the wicked [isaiah 1:4]. End of reference. vp says the John 8:44 passage "you are of your father, the devil" indicates these Jews were born again of the seed of the serpent. On page 60 of "The New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel of John", John Hendriksen takes a less literal approach saying this emphasizes their moral relationship to the devil. When I hear someone say "like father, like son", I tend to think the idiom expresses that the person is following in another's footsteps [like the Ephesians 5:1 usage, "be followers of God as dear children" mentioned earlier]. ~~ Regarding the unforgiveable sin – I don't have a whole lot to say nor desire to look into it. Scripture doesn't give a whole lot of details on it and its specific reference seems limited to the gospels – so I'm inclined to leave it alone. I haven't found a definitive answer in the systematic theologies that I've read – sometimes they lose me when discussions get more philosophical than technical or don't cite Scripture that has an overt or simple logical relationship to the topic. ~~ Another question – does "seed" of the serpent link to the unforgiveable sin in anyway? Not sure – but I doubt it. The unforgiveable sin seems to place one's spiritual status on the not-so-good list permanently. And I think about someone like Paul – the vp mindset could very well deem him born of the wrong seed by his vehement attacks on Christians – yet he flip-flopped after meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus. And I think about the simple change of "families" referred to earlier – Ephesians 2:3 & 5:1. So.. .some things to think about.. .interesting thread, thanks ErkJohn/all.

Yup – I don't consider my post the definitive answer to D Miller's question. This is the Grease Spot Café - NOT the illustrious Way International's Biblical Research & Teaching stink-tank. I'm perfectly happy with this thread taking whatever meandering detours it can find to explore the myriad of comedic possibilities of D Miller's thought provoking post. And if you want to drive one of those old clunker of a WOW-mobile on the detour – I'm fine with that too. Just don't asphyxiate me with its smoking exhaust pipe when you pass me by – cuz I'll be jogging on this detour – have to get some aerobic points in dontcha know for the ol' Corps program – geez, I'm not one of those Fundamentalists who believes their body should literally be a vehicle for the ministry. I see 'em out there on the road every so often – they've got 4 or 5 people on their back – and forget it if they happen to be a Branch leader. Those poor souls look like a tractor trailer with an oversized load.

It's a variable answer of 4 to 9 depending on the gift ministry contingency. 1. One to find out what's available [that could take awhile depending on the number of hardware & grocery stores in their area – don't forget to factor in the Yellow Pages search since the Internet is of the devil and absolutely verboten]. 2. One to believe for God to supply the light bulb – an essential responsibility in the WOW program since the promised blessings of prosperity seem to be held in abeyance for some reason during this time period. 3. One to check with the Way Tree for authorization and scheduling. 4. One to discern the spiritual status of the light socket – don't want to be screwing with any devil spirits, that's for sure. 5. Contingency factor if gift ministry/ministries present. [* see note below] * note -the gift ministry contingency: In the event of one of them having a gift ministry it could raise the number of wafers assigned to this task by up to nine – if the "gifted" individual happened to operate all five ministries all the time.

Penworks, I totally agree with that! I think a small part of Grease Spot's draw for us all may be the medicinal value of a good laugh. I'm not a war vet but I am a survivor of TWI's insane environment. The levity at Grease Spot helps me put things in perspective – well, it's many things.. .laughing at myself for being so dum as to believe this or that.. . It's a nice break from taking myself or life so seriously. Life in Way World was so oppressive and cognitive distortions were rampant – almost like the morphing font sizes of vp mentioned in earlier post, my take on situations or just trying to assess my general status suffered from the flip-flopping binoculars. I'd magnify whatever leadership said was important and minimize what I wanted; or magnify perceived abilities of others [like vp's "mastery of the Word"] and tell my critical thinking to take a back seat. Hmmm, I guess what's funny is this whole role reversal thing now. But back then there was a constant push, a challenge to aspire to the greatness of someone like vp [insert real-time gagging sound here] and the slumps of personal failures that I usually interpreted as a telltale sign my believing was way below par, "Who am I kidding? I'll never come close to doing anything great for God." Humor is a fun way to develop critical thinking skills. I love the sarcasm and wit of Grease Spotters – it's a clever way to expose the insidiousness and absurdity of the TWI doctrine, practice, mindset, and jargon. Things that make for a good laugh are the choice of ammunition and target. I don't think Grease Spot will ever run out of ammunition and in TWI we have a target-rich environment. Enough with the ceasefire! Commence with the debunking already!

Great post Spectrum! You know - you reminded me of something. Ages ago - my first year in TWI, a friend's mom took PFAL. She was into a lot of things and loaned me a book one day - I think it was "The Space Ships of Ezekiel" or something like that. Anyway - I had a mixed reaction. Some of the stuff was so interesting, I'm a old sci fi fan since I was a kid [the author interpreting things in a similar fashion as you did] - but I could also feel the subtle pressure of seasoned grads to curb my interest in the book.

.. .sometimes a response would be nice.. .

too funny Waysider! or it could be a reference to vp's rendition of "White Rabbit" One swig of Drambuie makes the words larger the next swig makes the words small but the drink they gave me at the detox center doesn't do anything at all.. . I'm sorry, I'm sorry - I know the meter and rhyme are all screwed up - but I didn't have time for Way Productions to proof the lyrics.

Yeah - but you still wouldn't happen to be a WOW Ambassador would ya? Back in my day it was only a one year program. Did TWI change something or did you just lose track of time?

Which brings up a good point – put yourself in the rock's shoes. Sure, you may laugh but I've got a friend who lives in Boulder, Colorado – he was telling me the other day about the rise of stone-on-stone crime. He said it's getting so bad even the churches aren't safe anymore - someone vandalized the Garden of the Gods. What's the last thing the rock said before the avalanche? "Stampede!" Conversation of two Punk Rockers channel surfing for music videos: Bloodrock: not interested in "So You Think You're a Rock Star" – it's a repeat. Oh, hey here's Stonehedge - great classic rock! Rockmaninov: They suck – the guitarist wouldn't know a bar chord from a hole in the ground. Bloodrock: What do you know - Mesolithic is ahead of his time – he's a tasteful guitarist with an understatement style – which a lot of listeners take for granite. Rockmaninov: Ooh, check out Easter Island! Bloodrock: Oh man, I hate that cheesy Christian Rock stuff. Nice - here's Mount Rushmore. Rockmaninov: Aw geez dude, you're into Glam Rock? That's just sad.

Something about the sentiment in this post makes me think of the parable of the good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37. And for some reason also makes me recall what I said on another thread – a person may be out of TWI but TWI may not be out of the person. Perhaps the relevancy of my two statements above will become more apparent at some point on this thread. I think the average person with any sense of compassion and human decency - - not poisoned by the pervasive toxicity of TWI's doctrines would also see there's a lot more in common with these two statements than the pairing of Grease Spot Café and Splinter Groups. But that is an interesting juxtaposition – I will address in a little bit. Anyway, I'm sure many are familiar with the parable Jesus used in response to a man's question of "who is my neighbor?" It seems like a fair enough question in regards to the written Law's command to "love your neighbor as yourself." As the story goes a guy is leaving Jerusalem heading toward Jericho when he is attacked by robbers – they strip him of his clothes and beat him, leaving him half dead. A priest and a Levite come up on this poor soul since they were traveling the same road – probably leaving or returning to the holy city of Jerusalem – but when they get a load of this guy's predicament they go out of their way to avoid him. Not so the Samaritan – he renders aid and goes the extra mile in checking up on the guy while he recuperates – on the Samaritan's expense as well! Interesting casting on Jesus' part – Samaritans were hated by the majority of Jesus' audience – the Jews. The Samaritans also hated the Jews. The enmity was mostly over religious issues and how they each interpreted the law. There's some pagan influences in the religious pedigree of the Samaritans – and with them being thought of as having a defective form of Judaism – it's no wonder they were despised by the average Jew – looked down upon as rank unbelievers for the most part. While it's tempting to craft a check-out-the-various-splinter-groups-reaction-to-a-hard-luck story for prime time TV [but I will explore this later] – I'm going with just pointing out the obvious. Neither the experts in theology nor those recognized to serve as religious ministers showed even the slightest bit of compassion compared to the generous outpouring of compassion & support by good ol' Joe Unbeliever. I'd fellowship with his splinter group any day! Ever notice how callous the TWI mindset makes people. I see it here every once and awhile.. . Now for a quick commercial break "You can take Salem out of the country – but you can't take the country out of Salem." 3, 2, 1, and we're back.. . Many of the goads that firmed up my decision to leave TWI in 1986 were trends that I became increasingly aware of among upper leadership and trickling down into the ranks – hardheartedness, legalism, elitism, an ungodly reverence for anything related to victor paul wierwille, hypocrisy, pride, favoritism, and mindless decision-making. Well, it wasn't actually a one-time-fully-aware-of-what-I'm-doing type of decision to leave. These "goads" .. . I dunno - - made me step back a little further from the fold and to try and assess the problem(s). A little more back, a little more back.. . write letters to my superiors with tons of questions and concerns - - await their response - - and wait - - and wait. Write fellow Corps – some respond back – heated dialogs – step back a little more; finally get a canned response from superiors - a few more steps back.. . etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Lo and behold I'm way over here at Grease Spot in 2006. Just like Bill Murray in "What about Bob?" .. ."baby steps, baby steps.. .look at me – I'm being human!" ~~ As promised earlier - let's look at a few definitions of splinter group from the Internet I cut and pasted below: a faction or sect that has broken away from its parent organization A group of members of a political party or of a similar organization who have decided to create their own organization Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a number of members of an organization, political party, etc., who split from the main body and form an independent association, usually as the result of dissension a small organization that becomes separated from or acts apart from an original larger group or a number of other small groups, with which it would normally be united, as because of disagreement. ~~ End of definitions ~~ Ok – I see it. Grease Spot could be considered a splinter group – dissenters unite out of disagreement with the "parent organization" – yeah, I can still hear old vp crank out the charm, "you're my kids!" . I must say, step-dad sure had a lot of issues – I should have run away from home a long time ago. Are religious differences with TWI the reason for Grease Spot? Hmmm – nope! We've got Jews, Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, Republicans, Democrats, Librarians, Trekkies – throw me a bone here folks – I guess Wiccans, Buddhists, closet Grease Spotters who still reside in WayWorld, and the guy who still sends me Corps sponsorship every month - bless you my child, god will continue to spit in your direction - - – I dunno – I don't keep track of this stuff – you all just feel free to jump in and state your belief system. "Ok, I do believe I've gotten this rant out of my system." What does unite us? I'd like to think it's the spirit of the good Samaritan, providing help and a "fellowship" for those who have been robbed in one way or another by a supposedly religious organization.

So I'm driving into work this morning, minding my own business – not thinking about Grease Spot or anything. Listening to one of my favorite CDs [given to me by Pawtucket – well.. . ok, so I thought about Grease Spot for a millisecond there but anyway it was.. .] – Frank Zappa & the Mothers of Invention's "MoFo" CD. It was a nice way to step into my day when all of a sudden one of the tracks jolted me into awareness about something on this thread. I realized how narrow the discussion has been – only focusing on the two sides of the situation – the one who throws the stone or the one who gets hit by the stone. But no one – and I mean no one has given any thought to the stone's perspective. Yes, what does the stone think about this issue? Ah, the sweet experience of drifting off into another reverie in La La Land – as track # 13 pulsed out of the automobile's Asian-built sound system – getting lost in the hypnotic effect of this American band's Middle Eastern-like drone [making a mental note of the juxtaposition of cultures in this auditory experience]. The tune is only some 4 minutes & change long – but it was long enough to get me to see a whole new aspect of the situation. It was almost like a revelation.. .uhm.. .er, hmmm.. . or discovery – yes that's it, a discovery! That's when it hit me - like maybe how an incredible idea hit Sir Newton's mind in the form of an apple – only in my case it was a stone. The title of track # 13 is "Help, I'm a Rock".. .. . and now you know the rest of the story This is T-bone wishing you all "good day"

Thanks for sharing that stuff Old Skool & Your Mom .. . it's just sad.. .I feel sorry for the folks that live under the tyranny of the evil empire.

A good point was made about TWI sorta eliminating God in the process of things - I see something very similar with the health & wealth/the power of believing fans focusing on any mention of faith, believing, fear, or doubt of someone in such accounts – to the exclusion of God. Like so many things in Scripture it seems that faith begins and ends with God – an interesting circle – God being not only the source of our faith but the object of our faith as well. Faith is indeed a mysterious thing – but if I was pressed to give a simple description I'd say faith is simply what connects us to God. I talked earlier about one's mental map of life – something we all make in our heads – in an effort to interpret reality and negotiate through it. Basically this mental map of life is nothing more than how we think life works. I think you and I "see" it different on how you received a free car. Your focus is more on what YOU did, YOU confessing what YOU want, YOU prayed, YOU expected, YOU believed God to bring it to pass. Me? I was struck by the generosity of the guy who gave you the car. I remember this about the TWI mindset – especially in reference to believing. There was something so proud and dishonest about it. I was a WOW too. Funny this vicious circle TWI doctrines get you stuck in. A typical WOW – dirt poor cuz we're supposed to work only so many hours – gotta have time for doing ministry stuff ya know and gotta abundant share from what few bucks I do have. And there's the fine art of begging we learned in the ministry – only it's not begging it's believing. We're too proud to beg – we don't need to beg – we're believing for abundance dontcha know. way-folks need to get honest & humble – the TWI map of how reality works is a joke! The ministry sucked up our time, energy & money and in return gave us a pacifier – a sugar daddy god - a god who was nothing more than a genie-in-the-PFAL book. As to your comments suggesting folks are rejecting something good because of a bad experience with TWI – throwing out the baby with the bathwater - I just wanted to address this by elaborating on what I said in post # 5. I don't like confrontation and lately have tended to soften things a bit. Anyway – you know the part where I talked about my initial Grease Spot experience of shock & denial and becoming aware of a TWI mindset that lingers on long after leaving. That was for your benefit. I suggest you spend more time in the About the Way forum. What is considered the baby and what is considered the bathwater is a matter of opinion. Some of what you think is so important and so right may be exactly the opposite for another person. I'm a Christian and happen to believe God, Jesus and the Bible are real also. But you know, that Bible thumping and putting your viewpoint up front like it's some kind of standard or litmus test for who are real Christians - all I can think is you may have left TWI but TWI hasn't left you. Now, Grease Spot is not a Christian website – but I believe a valuable service is provided here: telling the other side of the story about a supposedly "Christian" organization [TWI] and helping former followers recover from TWI's spiritual, mental, physical, sexual, and financial abuse. The fact that there's so much uncomfortable crap discussed in About the Way forum should give you some idea of how utterly toxic the doctrines & practices of TWI are. Yup - it does have an effect on human beings ya know.. .It's no joy ride to read these threads and hear about the dark side of vp – it totally contradicts the man of god persona that the ministry pushed - but it's the other side of the story - the REAL story. The wolf in a sheep suit story that you've been skipping over in the Bible. It's the truth of how YOU HAVE BEEN DECEIVED - poisoned with toxic doctrines - blind to the fact that you're still wearing PFAL-colored glasses. Read, read, read those threads – think about the money you gave, the time and energy you spent to support and perpetuate a parasitic system of abuse – the real legacy of vp. There's the charming memory you have of victor paul wierwille - on stage working the crowd - - but then you read the threads by posters who are familiar with the back stage wierwille.There's 2 wierwilles - one is a facade and one is the truth. One is the wolf with the sheep suit on - the other is the predator exposed.

Roy, here's the real story behind some recent news.. . I'm all about investigative reporting dontcha know

Here's another gem from the annals of history [better make that the anals of history] - that showcases vp's tremendous research skills to discover "the accuracy & integrity of the Word". In between one of the sessions at PFAL 77 as an aside vp was talking about how he worked "the Word". And there I was - in the audience with greatness – as he was about to reveal another trade secret of how great minds know where to look for buried treasure. Feelings of giddiness abound, as if we were sitting down with Einstein as he walks us through his thought process of developing E = MC2.. . vp said, "Sometimes Father will make a word or phrase one inch tall." The ineffable greatness of that principle may elude some – but all you Bible scholars out there, take note!

After leaving TWI many years ago and eventually making my peace with reality – "believing equals receiving" became one of the many dubious TWI doctrines I got rid of. But believing equals perceiving may be a valid equation worth considering. Beliefs shape how we "see" the world. We've all heard the expression "we see what we want to see". In many ways, so true. I think it's a real eye-opener for ex-TWI folks to re-examine everything they've absorbed and try looking at the world without the PFAL-colored glasses. I know we all make mental maps of life – and the older I get the more I believe the TWI mindset was really out of touch with reality. I admit PFAL made sense to me at one time. But the simple lessons of life under the tutelage of observation & experience have proven so much of PFAL nonsense. Consider who sold you this idea of God working through a crooked guy like Balaam – it wouldn't happen to be vp, would it? I remember him teaching that a few times. I don't mean to burst your bubble or anything – but I tend to think when ex-TWI folks talk about how God could work through even a crooked guy like Balaam they still haven't come to terms with the reality of being fooled by a wolf in a sheep suit – a situation that is addressed far more frequently in the Bible [i.e. the many passages that contain warnings about deceivers, spiritual predators, false prophets, teachers, & messiahs]. And it's addressed in a clear, obvious & direct manner – not like the silly inferences & outlandish assertions of vp's teaching style. There's a lot of things that kinda freaked me out when I first joined Grease Spot and have experienced the shock that hits you right between the eyes, not knowing what to make of it all – then going through denial. What's great about this place is the freedom & support available to re-examine our whole TWI experience, develop critical thinking skills and begin taking ownership of our belief system. Perhaps a more appropriate situation to identify with is the crisis of Paul's conversion. After Jesus knocked him off his high horse – Paul didn't throw out the Old Testament. Instead he worked on getting rid of the Pharisee mindset when reading the Old Testament. For Christians who leave TWI it's a matter of shucking the PFAL mindset. This brings me to my last point. In PFAL, vp says God would have to change all the laws of the universe to keep from accommodating someone who set the time of their death. That makes the law of believing bigger than God. Think about this gem – "The believer's fear binds the omnipotence of God" from page 19 of "Lifelines: Quotations of Victor Paul Wierwille". Does that even make sense? Bind God's omnipotence? And that's from the same guy who wrote "Are You Limiting God?" .. . uhm, in case you hadn't noticed yet, vp's god and the God mentioned in Genesis 1:1 are not one and the same. Nuff said.

As long as the music-offender websites don't alert the authorities and shut me down! "We have ways of making you play in tune, Oak Ears."

Good point! I know my rabbit a$ $ [oops context - CONTEXT - I mean buns] got bit quite a few times down there. Maybe that's where the old expression came from "Hare today, gone tomorrow."

I think a part of good critical thinking skills is developing a keen awareness of details, especially in issues where you have to make comparisons and/or distinctions. I played bass guitar in a number of bands [a long, long time ago in a galaxy far away] and admit to always having a wooden ear. The lower register of frequencies are somewhat indistinguishable to the average ear anyway, so I could get lost in the sauce and most people wouldn't notice. I'm self-taught and would either craft a bass line using a scale or "hear" it in my head, hum that to the guitarist in the band and he would help me figure it out. Can't carry a tune either – so that was always a long and drawn out process; I'm one of those guys who always motivated the band leader to issue a decree "do not, I repeat do NOT give that man a microphone!" I probably should register as a music-offender – I know they have websites about people like me – so one can check out who in their neighborhood is preying on the sweet harmony of good tunes. :( Anywho.. .it wasn't until I was playing in a band in the Family Corps that I learned the secret of tuning up. Steve H was trying to get me to tune my bass guitar to the piano he was playing. I just couldn't do it. He kept at it – we were both getting frustrated – until he pointed out a little detail. He got me to notice the wavering tone in the blend of notes from the bass & piano. Kinda like the "uh, uh, uh, uh" sound effect when the 6 million dollar man engaged his bionic strength. Wow – I actually could hear a distinction now and would tighten or loosen the bass string until the fluttering frequency disappeared. It was a simple exercise for critical thinking to observe details, make comparisons & distinctions. And like I said in an earlier post – critical thinking skills are like a muscle; either use it or lose it. I've got an electronic tuner now – with a bunch of LEDs and graph that visually enables me to get the bass guitar in perfect tune. Which is such a relief to old wooden ears here.. . But relating this to the issues brought up in this thread – I think the deadening of our critical thinking skills in TWI was due to folks using PFAL like that electronic tuner – no thought was required on my part – I just looked to see what PFAL had to say about the issue at hand.. .hmmm, could also get into a whole other thing about why we accepted PFAL as THE standard by which to judge anything. And as a side note - now I drive Tonto crazy when I'm jamming with a favorite CD. I'll hear her shout some comment from the kitchen to let me know how close I am to mimicking the recorded bass line, "uhm – that's not it!"

Hadn't got around to watching it yet - but I recorded the one made in 2004; Googled the title and found one made in 1978 [guess that's the one you're referring to] - well, now I'll have to keep an eye out for that one too [tee hee - a little zombie humor ]

Funny you should say that, Krys. My original thread idea was going to be something along the lines of vp's assault on reason, opening with the quote I've cited below. I was thinking of this being like a gateway tenet – acceptance of it led to one being receptive to his other ideas – that may explain how I slid down the rabbit hole. Guess I went with what I did in my first post cuz I was going for a broader target – exposing the sham of vp's theology. Will go with it now since it may relate to the dynamics of vp's homogenizing eclectic elements I mentioned in post # 8. On Page 23 & 24 of "The Bible Tells Me So", in the chapter "Are You Limiting God?" vp says: ".. .We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, 'That just cannot be,' and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, 'Sufficiency in everything.' We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true. As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world. The natural world and everything in it comes to the mind through or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man." End of excerpt ~~ Imho, his asserting the priority of "the Word of God" over reason was a way for him to embed a faulty premise that defeated critical thinking from the get-go. Then whatever vp says is the accuracy of the Word, the accuracy and integrity of the Word, the great accuracy of the Word, the ineffable greatness of the I-wish-you-could-see-it-in-the-original-holy-grail-of-texts-Word, and absurdium infinitum - THAT is what you were supposed to believe, regardless of what your stupid brain thinks! Personally, I don't find much in the Bible that pits faith against reason or even the five senses. Perhaps it's all complementary and may be more a matter of how each informs the other. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. When Jesus taught on trusting God He said look at the birds and consider how your Heavenly Father takes care of them. Isaiah spoke to Israel of the Lord's invitation to reason with Him about their spiritual status. Hebrews says it's by faith we understand the universe was formed at God's command. If God created us and endowed us with powers of reason I tend to think He had a purpose in mind – like maybe so we're on the same wavelength as Him or something – or how else would the intelligent communication of ideas be possible? I'm not saying anything incomprehensible is suspect. I cannot conceive of a being that inhabits eternity and I have never caught a glimpse of Him. Yet, the Bible says I am to live by faith and not by having my Lord in sight – believing in the reality of His presence with us and the certainty of His promises regarding the future [iI Corinthians 5:7]. Offhand, I can't think of anything in the Bible that directs us to do things contrary to reason. Matter of fact, it might prove to be a fun study to go through the book of Proverbs while recalling the old TWI viewpoint on a particular issue. I think there'd be some stark contrasts between the practical wisdom of Proverbs and the TWI way of doing things. From what I remember - it didn't matter if it was money, morals, safety & security, decision-making, business, relationships, property, whatever – vp had something to say about it all and amazingly it all seemed to suit TWI's agenda for some reason. This is all just my opinion of course and I could be wrong on a lot of things - but for me, I don't think the Christian life is one of trying to conquer reality with the law of believing, SIT, and renewing my mind to block out differing viewpoints or whatever contradicts my mental map of reality. Jesus' directive to love God & neighbor is simple yet challenging enough for me - and after all it was the basis for His systematic theology. The Lord even set some basic parameters for our prayer life when He taught His followers to pray - probably too meager for the greedy health & wealth groups - but I think it's a healthy thing to keep it simple - thank God for my daily bread, ask for forgiveness, and seek His help when dealing with temptation. I believe the goal of systematic theology should be the pursuit of the practical application of Scripture. And to press it further - the practical application that is an honor to God. I don't think it's about attaining knowledge just to be a know-it-all or a spiritual snob. It's a little scary when I stand back and think about the guy I followed for a time. vp answered to no one. And with a hodgepodge of beliefs, a fifth of charisma [usually Drambuie], and an imaginary ordination by the voice of god he led us down a rabbit hole – an absurd world of his own making.

Thanks, Oakspear – and just wanted to give credit where credit is due. Since we left TWI my wife Tonto and I have just about discussed all things TWI and many theological matters too. She was the first to start saying “I’ve made my own religion.” I think she should post more than she does – maybe it’s got something to do with me bugging her to help me work on a post. She’s a great editor – and besides helping me fine tune a point or eliminate extraneous stuff on occasion – there’s also the whole being-honest-about-your-professed-faith-thing that develops between two people who still love each other even after an extended journey through the land of the hypocrites [12 years with TWI].

Waysider, I loved that show. I tried to play the link you posted in Silly - but had difficulty with uploading Adobe Flash Player 10.. . will try again later.. . hey, but feel free to post it here too. I DID include your post in my comment of great input by all. You know I'm all about bringing some levity to threads!

Great input everyone. I think some of the posts have touched upon the nature of vp's theology – it is malleable, i.e. capable of being shaped, formed, adapted or adjusted to fit circumstances or suit TWI's agenda. Maybe that's why sometimes it's challenging to try and nail down vp's doctrines. I also think vp's dynamics of trying to homogenize the eclectic elements can throw off the casual glance. Take the law of believing as an example of how "plastic" vp's theology is. It works for saint and sinner alike – but vp doctrine says because the believer has the spirit of God, can outdo the sinner in terms of results. Or you've blown it with not believing for something – but it turns out good anyway – vp would explain it as due to God's grace. Or as far as you know – you've been believing, doing everything within your power to prepare for receiving the thing you want – you don't get it, so the vp explanation is that you were not believing, dummy.