T-Bone

Yeah, I'm hooked on it alright - like Bolshevik was saying, "Big Love" has a lot of resonance. Like the lingering mindset in folks that have left the compound but still hold onto the polygamy thing - which they refer to as "the principle" [vp would have probably said "now that's what I call the GREAT principle. Dawts riiiiight!"]. Another thing that's interesting to follow is the way they have to cover up "living the principle" in their neighborhood [hubby with 3 wives live in 3 homes next door to each other] and just in general in any social setting. Watching that drama play out reminds me of when I first became aware of a mindset after I left TWI. So much of the inappropriate & twisted crap became much more obvious as I related stuff to friends who were never in TWI.

Thanks Oakspear! I love the Onion too. Tonto turned me on to it - matter of fact she brought home a book they have "Our Dumb World" - tell ya what - their humorous creativity runs a close second to vp's "creative" research, imho - I agree with Penworks, it does make a fine point - the Bible is a religious book - which imho leaves itself open to a wide variety of interpretations. But the sciences [Physics, Geology, Astronomy, Paleontology, etc.] deal with data, facts, observations & experiments in the real world - and usually there's not a whole lot of room for skewed interpretations of something that every other scientist in that field can plainly observe as well. They may argue on the implications or applications but not on the actual raw data - but even so I tend to think most scientists would not have a cognitive disconnect when it comes to reality.. .Of course this is just all my opinion and need I remind you I'm prone to suffering from galactic delusions while daydreaming in a parallel universe on a perpendicular universe basis, if you catch my cosmic drift. http://www.amazon.co...JACC9TFMVE66RX8 this link shows it in paperback - but my wife has some class, she bought it in hardcover!

yeah it's pretty creepy to me now - I musta been in a coma back then - don't think much phased me.. . come to think of it, I was in a coma for 12 years. Oh another detail - it wasn't a regular ol' glass eye - a whole round thing - it was just part of the eye, like what's showing when eyelid is open - guess he plugged it into some kind of cavity of what was left. Anyway, Tonto and I were joking about "the eye sharing incident" today - she said it would have been funny if someone drew something on it with a permanent marker as we were all passing it around.Would he have noticed? I figure go for broke - replace it with a Certs breath mint - at least he couldn't give us the stink eye then.

Great post Sir Guess! I too wish you congrats DrWW! Cheranne - great post too - and I love Alanis - listened to a CD of hers all last week to & from work.

You're reminding me of one of my "crises" after dialoging on Grease Spot for awhile. After trying to boil the issues down to something I could put my finger on - I think it finally bottomed out at one grand assumption which was the basis for my belief system - a simple assumption that I had ever since I was a little boy - and that is a belief that there is a supreme being, a creator who started this whole thing. And perhaps realizing that all that was is an inherited faith [being raised in a Roman Catholic family coupled with an awe of the wonders that science unfolds] was at least something for me to re-examine and see where I stood.I dunno .. . it's something I think a person should do at some point - determine how they came to a particular belief system. I discussed this on another thread - the evolution of my belief system - from an inherited faith - to a chosen faith [TWI's doctrines] - then a crisis of faith , re-examine their doctrines, then joining Grease Spot and going a step further - going all the way back to why I even believed there was a God in the first place. so you see - I ain't got squat - but it's something I'm comfortable with. I'm back to square one - believing there's a supreme being. and after all my years of Bible study and pursuing systematic theology - I still think God had something to do with the Bible being written - though there's an awful lot of stuff in there that's confusing or open to a variety of interpretations - and I'm not hung up in the accuracy & integrity thing that vp pushed. I don't worship the book like I use to - but see it more as a means to an end - connecting with God. But that's just me - and everyone processes life differently - and imho it's a healthy thing to seriously examine one's beliefs - right down to its most basic elements. all this is where I'm at currently on my personal journey; and it sounds like you're plotting your course now. you might want to check out some threads along these lines and maybe start some of your own - targeting a specific issue - here's links to a few http://www.greasespo...post__p__357240 http://www.greasespo...post__p__276432 http://www.greasespo...post__p__249223

Don't know.. .and the predicament and/or resolution may be a matter of perception anyway. If you want an opinion of your situation - from my standpoint - you've just made a significant step forward. And if it's any consolation to you - personally I feel with as much as my belief system is in a state of flux - I don't really get a sense of standing still.

Now if you can just maintain that attitude in a holding pattern for an indefinite period – you may be in for some surprises. imho, that's when the real adventure starts. I've gone through several crises of faith since I left TWI and think I'm better off because of it. Don't get me wrong – not suggesting I'm some kind of standard or norm for leaving a cult or that you're having a crisis of faith. I'm just saying that you might be experiencing a type of breakthrough similar to what I've had – several times as a matter of fact. And maybe my choice of words "crises of faith" is not appropriate for what you're feeling – because I don't want to imply your experience is a typical of a Christian's period of intense doubt or inner conflict over matters of faith and you'll snap out of it.. . .. .but anyway – and let me preface this by saying I could be VERY WRONG since I'm not an expert on anything other than my own personal journey – you may be describing a personal breakthrough of conventions – the conventions being some acceptable norm for processing the Bible, a residual mindset from association with some group or whatever. Just been rambling here – sorry if I'm going all over the place – but your two posts really touched a nerve with me in a good sense, mind you–and a lot of this I merely write for my own benefit – articulating some growth I'm experiencing - – anyway, what you're going through is truly marvelous, humbling and genuine. Getting back to my own experiences – I may have had several like it. After I left TWI – a different method opened up to me of how to approach the Bible that took me down the road of systematic theology and comparing commentaries. Maybe it was getting familiar with the territory and learning about more options or other viewpoints – and starting to develop some critical thinking skills. But I think a whole other avenue of learning opens up when you dialog with other folks. And that's where Grease Spot comes in. That's where I've experienced several significant breakthroughs – pushing my critical thinking skills to another level – and it's definitely had an impact on the way I "process" my faith. I still consider myself a Christian but it would probably surprise some to hear me say some of my favorite Grease Spotters are NOT Christians [most notably Oakspear, GarthP2000, George Aar and Seth] – I always enjoy reading their posts. And not only do I appreciate their thoughtful input on threads – but perhaps more so because of their honesty & humility. And you really should check out other forums more besides doctrinal – you might enjoy visiting with folks. Now reading some of their posts - it's not a warm & fuzzy feeling like "I really got blessed at the Word you shared today in Twig, man!" Sometimes it's a jolt of espresso to wake me up, sometimes a friendly slap in the face from reality. Bottom line – it helps me process my faith in the context of the real world. I've covered a lot of ground – doctrinally speaking, since I left TWI – and I too feel like I'm farther from the truth then when I started – maybe it's just realizing how much I don't know or can figure out. But I've grown accustomed to the unsure nature of this journey. You are still someone – maybe not the someone you were before - in another mindset, perhaps becoming more genuine as you start to uncover the authentic self – and now can work on discovering your voice. I'm still discovering my voice – have a long way to go I imagine– it's changing a lot since I first joined Grease Spot a few years ago. Best wishes on your journey, hope to see you here in full blossom Love & peace T-Bone

my memory is very fuzzy on the before & after of vp passing around the ol' porcelain peeper. had to ask Tonto. she doesn't remember him popping it out in front of everybody but does recall that he sometimes wore a patch over that "eye" - so he may have already had it out.. . funny how Tonto put it though - "don't you remember he sometimes wore a pirate patch" .. . now the pirating plagiarist image fits like a glass eye in a socket - eeewww gross Ham, I can't answer your question on where is it now. Maybe Rosie wears it like a lucky charm.. . butchaknow, if she's smart she'd stick it on her forehead - that would give her some real clout!

Thanks, Waysider - interesting stuff - I enjoy reading about things like this. I also thought this was noteworthy: Wow wee wow - congress was in session on Christmas day! I guess that's back when they actually worked for a living.. .seriously though - I find that so odd - thanks again.

yes - YES, Waysider!!!!! That's exactly what it looked like! And when I made some remark about the horns and barbed tail, vp passed them off as part of the anchoring system for the glass eye.. . who knew?!

wanna hear something creepy? When I was in-residence the old fart passed his glass eye around in the Chapel. Yup - I actually touched it.. ."I'll keep an eye out for ya" has some real meaning for me - ain't no figure of speech if ya know what I'm saying! <_< they ought to incorporate it on their Mountain High Checkbooks [do they even still make those goofy things?] - similar to the floating eye on back of the dollar bill.. . yeah the all-seeing eye of vp still has his eye on your money.

What I realize now is that there was two different categories in my relationships - and it was a distinction between who I wanted to hang out with [friends I chose] and those I had to be with - the rest of believers - fellowship - folks TWI preferred I be with. As the years went on - I so looked forward to non-TWI get-togethers when I could hang out with friends - they were TWI believers of course, and they were mostly serving in some kind of leadership capacity also, all of us advancing in the TWI hierarchy at more or less the same time. We could let it all hang out - even complain about stuff. Ya gotta have a way to let off steam. Those were the times I hold in fond memory - the good times & bad times that we experienced together - what true friends do - with each other through thick & thin. Running fellowships was a lot of work - having to be with people that I would never choose to be with.So being with friends was a real treat for me. genuine friendships just happen - something that comes naturally - and Tonto and I only had a handful of friends.I feel most relationships in TWI were artificial - arranged - maybe even "forced". But genuine friendships can develop out of any situation - something we all need being the social creatures that we are.

Be-leaving equals receding. If you be-leaving HQ then it be-receding in your rear-view mirror. This great principle [not to be confused with THE great principle] was brought to you by Thelonious Hyphen Bone.

I'm not in a screwed up cult! I'm not - I'm not!!!

Besides vp being one of the best con artists to walk the earth, he had a way of "inspiring" others to put a lot of stock in his intellectual abilities [also known as pulling the wool over their eyes]. And in turn those so "inspired" would go forth with a lofty mission to teach others based on this tremendous false-confidence. Pseudo-intellectualism breeds pseudo-intellectualism. imho - a lot of it goes back to folks assuming PFAL is THE standard for doing study & research. I still wince anytime I recall a debate I had with a pastor and how he made mincemeat out of me using vp's Greek definitions. Uhm – apparently this guy actually studied biblical Greek in seminary. Not exactly one of my best days for moving "da verd".

Welcome to the Cult. The first rule of the Cult is: you do not talk about the Cult. The second rule of the Cult is: you DO NOT talk about the Cult !

maybe that's the difference between a normal cult and a screwed up cult.

there was a poster here with a Darth Tator avatar - uhm CK, I think was the poster's name - and maybe there was something about him and/or his "buddy", alias or whatever being banned - I dunno - I don't keep track of all that soap opera stuff.

With all these rules & stipulations I'm thinking maybe those who promote the law of believing should qualify their assertions with one of those gosh-awful-long-hyper-speed statements you hear at the end of a car commercial on the radio. It all sounds like gibberish if you're not really listening – but if you pay attention you can make out "excluding tax, title & license, not applicable in all states, etc." ya know, I think something similar to that went on in my head anyway in the TWI days. There's a thread awhile back – I remember saying something on it about the mental pop-up notes I'd experience while reading the Bible – recalling something vp said about a verse. Geez it was like a vp interactive commentary installed in my brain! Yikes – and I think this "lovely" program had a virus to boot! But speaking of rules – imho the only precept or principle that should be applicable in a Christian's prayer life is having Jesus Christ as the object of our faith. I've heard of a pretty good analogy that distinguishes between our faith and the object of our faith. Let's say you're sliding down a slippery steep slope while desperately looking for something to grab to save you from going all the way down the hill. You see a tall sunflower and an oak tree. Which would you choose? Folks into the power of faith could very well answer it doesn't matter which one you choose since it really depends on the power of your faith. But in this scenario, I think the smart move would be to grab the oak tree – since it obviously has the power to save me – and the oak tree becomes the object of my faith. And that makes me think of something about the gospels -- they usually have Jesus as the focal point of healings & miracles. I don't see many accounts of people coming out of the woodwork saying "once I heard about the power of faith I was healed. But I do not believe in your Jesus." <_< A poster brought up earlier on this thread the account of Peter walking on the water and talked about fear being the reason he started to sink. I tend to think it was because he took his eyes off Jesus and looked at the storm surrounding them. Jesus was quite literally the object of his faith – since Peter said "if it's you Lord, bid me to come to you." And just like the oak tree on the slippery slope that's worthy of our trust – you might consider how Peter got back to the boat. If it had depended on his believing he would have drowned. Though the passage does not say I think it's implied that Jesus helped him back to the boat. Maybe had Peter on His back or something I dunno. Similar in vein to the account of the man telling Jesus "Lord I believe – help my unbelief." Another passage I can think of offhand is the blind men coming to Jesus for healing in Matthew 9:27-30. Jesus asked them "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" Again that puts the focus on Jesus and His power. If there's some kind of underlying principle or "rule" in the gospel accounts of healings & miracles I'd say it has something to do with Jesus being at the center of it all - with the only "contingency" being His will.

You know you’re in a screwed up cult when you realize their mindset has an aversion to reality. Toward the middle of 1986, after much stewing & fretting over “Passing of the Patriarch” issues and seeing the way upper leadership managed crisis after crisis - I began having serious doubts about some of TWI’s doctrines – but at this point still did not entertain the idea of it being a cult – guess I hadn’t gone that far spiritually. It was also a very awkward time for me - this being my practicum year Corps assignment as branch coordinator – and me being honest enough to admit I was not cut out for any type of leadership or managerial role nor was I into pulling off a snow job like some slick politician – so I resigned from the post though I still fellowshipped with Way folks. It was a small thing but maybe shows a fumbling effort to think outside the box - I bought a commentary on the books of Timothy at an estate sale just around the block – which opened my eyes to a whole other world of thought out there. That got me into going to the library and reading a lot of Bible related stuff. Anything I found interesting & relevant to topics I had targeted - I would either take pages & pages of handwritten notes or photocopy parts of the book. I’d go to a photocopy place cuz it was cheaper than the library for the amount of stuff I was copying. One book I had stumbled upon was “The Kingdom of the Cults” by Walter Martin. One day I happened to run into one of the WOWs outside the photocopy place – he wanted to talk to me about “something heavy on his heart”. He followed me in – and while I was copying pages out of the “Cults” book he was unloading his troubles – mostly a concern over wanting to quit his current job and the arguing he’s been having with his WOW coordinator over this. The whole time I’m trying to hide the cover of “the Kingdom of the Cults” book from him – but he was more concerned with unloading than paying attention to what I was doing anyway. I kept up my side of the conversation, wanting to be the ever-helpful Corps leader but also to distract his attention from the book – not wanting to fry his brain with something I myself was getting squeamish over. What still stands out the most in my memory in a very poignant way are two bits of conversation while I was in the middle of photocopying a section on the psychological structure of cults and how among other things they are characterized by a close-mindedness, institutional dogmatism and intolerance. I asked him why he wanted to quit his job and his response was “I can’t think the Word there”.

You both have made me think of another BS line - I can't remember where I heard it first but it goes like this: "you can't believe FOR someone but you can believe AGAINST them." where did they dig up all these rules anyway?

Me too !

Hmmmm.. .what if he was referring to the others. You know – "The Others". That's the last thing he'd want – some dead people showing up at a Twig saying "vp has got it all wrong."

I like how you put that, Keith – trusting God being an expression of our relationship. Maybe I was thinking along similar lines in my post # 25, speaking about faith being something that connects us with God: I've enjoyed our discussion. Grease Spot is always a fun place to explore different viewpoints. And that's something to remember in discussions – once we've squared away with any of the strictly technical data [quoting passages, biblical languages, grammar, syntax, etc.] we are in a more cerebral territory – where different interpretations spring from different points of view – and as often is the case, ain't no telling who has the correct viewpoint. Personally I lean toward a "dynamic composite approach", meaning my take on things is pretty much a mix of where my head is at currently, along with a sampling of other folks' ideas. I guess I'm at the point in my life where I'm comfortable with a lot of my belief system being in a state of flux. ~~ I don't know what online Bibles you're using – but I've had good luck with Bible Gateway: http://www.biblegateway.com/ And here's a website with some study tools http://www.biblestudytools.com/ enjoy.. . love & peace T-Bone