T-Bone

~~ ok way Time for a station break….. This plagiarism stuff and vp's ineptness reminds me of a joke I heard about an old economics professor who traveled by his long-time chauffeur around the country giving lectures at universities on the history of production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services in America. He had been doing this for such a long time that one day his chauffeur said "i've heard your spiel for so long I think I could get up at the lectern and do your whole bit – even when you open it up to questions by the students. Those kids always ask the same questions." Perhaps out of boredom, the professor said "okay – how about you handling my next lecture this afternoon." So they arrived at the university with the professor posing as the mere chauffeur and the driver as the professor. The chauffeur delivered the lecture perfectly. He then opened it up for questions and answered each one from memory of how the professor answered it before….. Until – one student asked a very complicated question, that no one had ever asked before - on the levels of impact specific crisis events like 9/11 and the collapse of Wall Street had on the way business was conducted and how it may change in the near future. After a long pause, the chauffeur smiled and said, "hmmm, good question – and on the surface seems like a tough one – but actually if you had followed anything I have said today you could answer that for yourself. Why…[raising his hand to gesture toward the back where the professor stood by the door] I bet even my driver could answer that one....Hey, old chum, be a good fellow and answer this student's question. " ba dum bum….seriously folks, it's really great to be here.

Interesting how vp [who wanted to be known as "the teacher"] would come up with such an ingenious diversionary tactic as "answer a question with a question". …. Figures – it would come in handy now and then since he was always running his Drambuie Intake Valve to hide incompetence or to avoid giving a simple HONEST answer.

hmmmmm.....vp harnessing all his years of "experience", formal education, "scholarly" labors, "original" ideas, inventing the hook shot in basketball, and the hot-line to God Almighty into forming programs which would develop a similar level of "maturity" in followers.....yeah, that's the fast-track ticket alright. vp thumbed his nose at people who had experience or expertise - right after he stole from them anything he thought would help promote his agenda of ego and power...... just like any get-rich-quick book. the only one who gets rich quick is the author. vp's promise was a get-spiritually-mature-quick scheme - but the only thing it enriched was vp's ego and power [see above note on his agenda].

great points WordWolf ! i think we ought to call it variations on a theme; vp had numerous ways of asserting this same malleable code of ethics: love God & neighbor and do as you fool well please what i may allow in my life you may not allow in yours and visa versa [used often in many of his live teachings] ~~ and several i remember from the pajama party mentioned in my post # 460 - after showing us the bestiality video he addressed the possibility that some of us may have been kinda weirded out by it - saying such things as unto the pure all things are pure when you become spiritually mature you can handle anything i've so renewed my mind that things like this don't bother me he said he showed us the video out of his concern for us as potential leaders who can't afford to be shocked by anything if we want to help people - he tied that into anything done in the love of God is okay - like him preparing us for extremely unusual counseling situations - it takes the love of God to do that ~~ folks here can probably mention more variations on a theme.....but it was the same old theme wasn't it - i can do as i fool well please !

thanks for your input folks! i sometimes marvel at the variety of responses on a thread - and then wonder what innies make of it all.....there was a standardized indoctrination process we all went through going into TWI - - BUT - - each of us has a different story, maybe used a different escape route, a different process for freeing ourselves of not only the flesh & blood entanglement of the organization but just as importantly the mindset...... .....and perhaps all that seems like such a daunting task to someone still on the inside - wanting the things we talk about but unsure of what it takes to attain them. .....and to be honest, freedom from TWI and the mindset can take a lot of work sometimes but it's worth it. And besides support & resources outside the Way's walls, i think the very real feeling of once again taking charge of your life grows on you.

Your post does NOT address my request of providing references for your assertion that morals are man-made. As a matter of fact, you have some confusing double-talk in it but even so it appears you actually admit to my point of God setting a moral standard – in that He gave us the 10 commandments as well as a bunch of other laws….your post just avoids addressing the morals are man-made issue entirely – and goes off on a tangent about works of the flesh/fruit of the spirit. God's moral code has ALWAYS and STILL IS in effect as shown in Romans 13:9 NIV The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Jesus gave a similar summary of the law in Matthew 22: 36 & ff – love God and neighbor. These commandments of God - are they not moral dictates that make ethical demands on our hearts? Since they are a moral standard authored by God - then they are NOT man-made. ~~ ...and to reiterate the point i was making in my previous post - it appears in scripture that there's one aspect of the image and likeness of God that resides in man which enables him to have some sense of God's moral code - intrinsically - which is what the Romans 2 reference regarding the Gentiles/conscience seems to suggest.

morals are man-made? Really?!?! please provide some documentation to back up that philosophical assertion. personally i lean toward the christian idea [that does have a biblical basis] that man is made in the image and likeness of God Genesis 1: 26, 27 an image and likeness that man retained even after the Fall of man Genesis 9: 6; James 3: 9 the image and likeness of God in man - though now, like everything else tainted from the fall - still appears to function as a reflection of the Creator. This image perhaps being a template - a pattern cut after a design that mirrors the qualities of the Designer. Hence, the great challenge that Jesus put forth in Matthew 5:43-48, to love not only our neighbors but our enemies - setting an incredibly high standard of perfect love as our heavenly Father is perfect love. And this template seems to have an astounding self-diagnostic feature built in - - the conscience - which serves as an engine trouble light when the integrity of God's image is violated. If morals are man-made with the assumption that they express or teach a conception of right behavior - then who taught Adam such a code so that he felt guilt and shame after he disobeyed God in Genesis 3:8-12 ? i'm also inclined to think that the image and likeness of God is such an integral part of man by merely considering the common threads of morality that strike a similar cord in many cultures throughout history. Laws that prohibit stealing, murder, lying, adultery, etc. are common enough to suggest there's some ideal within man - an internal moral code, if you will. ~~ i think that was the strength of Paul's argument in Romans 2: 14 , 15 - that even though the Gentiles, who did not have the written Law as the Jews did - instinctively followed the things of the Law. imho, this passage makes a very strong case for the conscience of man being a moral template implanted by God Himself: Romans 2: 14, 15 NIV Indeed, when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness... ~~ As amazingly resilient as the conscience might seem to be - it can become severely damaged as shown in I Timothy 4: 1, 2, where it speaks of some abandoning the faith and following deceiving spirits and things taught by demons; such teachings coming through hypocritical liars whose consciences have been seared with a hot iron. ~~ edited in honor of Jiminy Cricket

Remember the good old days in TWI – when problem-solving was made easy. Any challenge, obstacle, problem 1, or issue could be handled by a simple formula, rule, list of steps/keys, principle, pat phrase, or when all else fails S.I.T. Needless to say – for the most part these "problem-solving" tips were great for relieving one of a very heavy burden - - - thinking. These became our repertoire in counseling, decision-making or in any typical problem-solving context. To receive anything from God you must first know what, class? What are the keys to walking by the spirit? What is the great principle? Believing equals what, class?.....i'll take what is bu11 $h it2 for $200, Alex. ~~ I've thought a lot about when I first heard The Passing of the Patriarch and the aftershocks of turmoil, confusion, frustration, doubt, fear and even anger. And maybe it was after the dust settled that many started experiencing a unique sensation called thinking. This was a milestone in the next phase of a journey – the re-awakening of problem-solving skills. It's been said a problem clearly defined is halfway solved4. I think there may be something to that. However, when you're knee deep in the BS2 of leaders blame-shifting, avoiding the issues, attributing any problems, failures and trouble in the ranks as being caused by devil spirits you have about as much chance of identifying the problem as a blind man would in finding a blue book in the middle of a stack of orange books3. Maybe an aberrant form of the inverse would apply here – any problem defined by TWI is as clear as mud and will take forever and a day to solve. So by discouraging thinking and stunting growth of problem-solving skills, TWI in effect just about guarantees that a follower will fail at solving the greatest problem of all – why life in the Way Ministry is so miserable. Perhaps if the solution was laid out in a simple list – more folks would leave TWI… In order to be free of TWI you must know 1. Freedom is available: I can recall many a teaching that laid out their prophecy of doom – any choice other than the ministry's way leads only to oblivion. Don't believe that BS2. Think outside the box5. 2. How to receive it: pack your bags and high-tail it outta there. Pass "go" and do not collect the abundant sharing – matter of fact, give any collected money back to folks. Believing you're free equals you'll be leaving the Way Tree. 3. What to do with it after you've got it: don't look back! Join Grease Spot. Witness to friends & family about your new found freedom. 4. Your willingness to comply equals their ability to ensnare you: become rebellious. Pray in the name of Davey Crockett at your next twig meeting. Question everything they say. Pour cayenne pepper on the critical thinking lobe of your brain. 5. Needs and wants don't have to be parallel: they don't have to be perpendicular, concentric, or elliptical either. This is America for gosh sakes. Land of the FREE and home of those brave enough to thumb their noses at pseudo-religious control-freaks. ~~ ~~ footnotes 1. Note to reader on the above use of "problem"; in case you've lost your TWI Secret Decoder Ring, in the beginning "problem" was encrypted to appear as "opportunity". When was "the beginning"? According to the gap theory, it was sometime between plagiarizing the material of Kenyon, BG Leonard and a host of others. How long was that period of time? You can make it as long as you like. If any of you scholars out there want to place the dinosaurs in that time period, feel free to do so. As a matter of fact that will be addressed later in my class when we look into the evolutionary process of fossil fuels changing into snow covered gas pumps….by the way, tonight's message boys and girls is "….take more PFAL…" 2. bu11 $h i+ and BS, also known as the rightly divided word of vic. 3. To be fair, there are numerous cases on record of blind people easily identifying the Blue Book from the Orange Book when book covers were in Braille. There are also numerous cases of people with a unique form of mental blindness who cannot tell the difference between the Bible and any of the PFAL books. 4. Perhaps the other side of the coin that states "a problem clearly defined is halfway solved" might read "the biggest obstacle to solving a problem is being unaware that there is a problem. 5. The box refers to the itty bitty room where you first took the class, and specifies the exact dimensions of your projected growth – analogous to the idea that fish will only grow so big inside a very small tank. Jump out of the tank why dontcha! ~~ edited in this day and time and hour by someone who has not mastered the art of telling time

oh yeah, getting back to one of your questions - - i meant to look up the Adam creation date issue in Hugh Ross' "The Genesis Question". from pages 107, 108: "....Once the Bible became available in English, some British church leaders busied themselves with figuring out the precise date when God created Adam (and Eve, presumably).Genesis 5, together with Genesis 11, served as the basis for their calculations. The math seemed relatively simple and straightforward. Add the ages of the fathers to the ages of their sons and work backward from the fairly well-established date of Abraham. Cambridge University's Vice-Chancellor John Lightfoot and the Anglican Archbishop of Ireland, James Ussher, actually became caught up in a race to see who could publish an accurate date first... ...The genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11 can be misleading to Westerners who know little about Jewish culture and tradition... ...Lightfoot and Ussher in their calculations and Western thinking presumed that Genesis 5 and 11 present meticulously complete genealogical records. Most Jewish scholars never published a date for Adam because they knew their cultural heritage.The Old Testament (and New Testament) genealogies are considered adequate lists on the heroes or notables..." end of excerpts ~~ Ross adds some additional info to the mix, pages 110, 111 of same book: "...Bipedal, tool-using, comparatively large-brained primates (called hominids by anthropologists) may have roamed the Earth as long ago as 1.5 million years, but religious relics and altars date as far back as twenty-four thousand years, at most, and art containing indisputable spiritual content just five thousand years... ...With reasonably reliable figures for the natural DNA mutations, rates derived from this research, from another study on the Finnish population, and from more studies currently underway, we can explore dates for the common ancestor of all humans. In 1995 a Y-chromosome research project - one which examined a hundred times more nucleotide base pairs than any previous study - fixed the date for the most recent common ancestor of all human males as somewhere between 35,000 and 47,000 B.C...." end of excerpts ~~

well, if you ask me i don't think your post is off topic at all [of course, i didn't start this thread....and have been known to stray quite a bit off the main trail anyway ] . the ranting brow voice mail is a great example of their malevolent secrecy....you know, it's one thing to read their innocuous statements of belief we used to hand out - but that was just a cover story to hide how they really ran their mickey mouse operation.

excellent article Skyrider - thanks for posting the link....along the secrecy lines the lock box kept coming to mind. what a "clever" way to maintain their hidden control - when not a peep nor a complaint leaks out of the mental prison confining each and every "loyal" follower. ~~ these other points Horowitz noted really touched a nerve with me: i remember reading in some booklet about cults - maybe it was "Marks of a Cult" - not sure - anyway....one of the things that stood out to me was organizational entanglement . ~~ imho, it's a smarter tact to follow when trying to help someone determine if they may be in a cult - by evaluating behavior, practices, group dynamics and the like - rather than doctrine. That is a big thing that Horowitz points out..... .....it can become a convoluted and confusing mess to sort out, otherwise - i'm thinking of my own dilemma when i left in 86. when i left TWI - i sorta put my commitment to them on hold - wanting to gather more information and just think things over - it didn't have any sense of finality to it like "that does it - i never want to deal with them ever again". but over time an ever widening gap developed in my perspective - between the lifestyle of the Way and what i wanted out of life. the confusion that i mentioned above set in as i started looking at mainstream churches. what made TWI so much more harmful? Even if using the same Bible....it slowly began to dawn on me that it was not just a matter of interpretation - but more so how they put it into practice.The "accepted" practical application of doctrine is the telltale sign of a cult.

Hi Sunesis - good to see you too! yeah, i like Ross' stuff - his website is cool too: http://www.reasons.org/ and yeah, Steve - you may find Ross' "Beyond the Cosmos" book interesting ~~ i mentioned Michio Kaku in my previous post....i caught him a few times on TV talking about creation, other dimensions, and superstring stuff so bought a couple of his books - "Beyond Einstein" and "Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the 10th Dimension"....i mentioned in my post the fascination i have with other dimensions & superstring theory. i feel these authors do a good job explaining such complicated ideas to everyday folks. my christian perspective enjoys this stuff as a fun way to speculate about qualities of the spiritual realm, technical details of miracles and the characteristics of the new heaven and earth....yes, it's all just speculation - which is fun to do - but something i realized a long time ago - learning about the world around me through science seems to have a faith-deepening effect on me. ~~ .....anyway, some ideas from Kaku's "Hyperspace" pages 195 & 196 over the beginning of the cosmos - additional dimensions may be the key to understanding what happened.... i feel it may be thought provoking for this thread: '....We can say that present-day theories of Creation are built on two pillars: quantum theory and Einstein's theory of gravity. We can say that, for the first time in a thousand years, religious "proofs" of the existence of God are being replaced by our understanding of thermodynamics and particle physics. However, by replacing God's act of Creation with the Big Bang, we have supplanted one problem with another. Aquinas thought he solved the problem of what came before God by defining him as the First Mover. Today. we are still struggling with the question of what happened before the Big Bang. Unfortunately, Einstein's equations break down at the enomously small distances and large energies found at the origin of the universe. At distances on the order of 10 -33 centimeter, quantum effects take over from Einstein's theory. Thus to resolve the philosophical questions involving the beginning of time, we must necessarily invoke the ten-dimensional theory. Throughout this book, we have emphasized the fact that the laws of physics unify when we add higher dimensions. When studying the Big bang, we see the precise reverse of this statement. The Big Bang, as we shall see, perhaps originated in the breakdown of the original ten-dimensional universe into a four - and a six-dimensional universe. Thus we can view the history of the Big Bang as the history of the breakup of ten-dimensional space and hence the breakup of previously unified symmetries. This in turn, is the theme of this book in reverse. It is no wonder, therefore, that piecing together the dynamics of the Big Bang has been difficult. In effect, by going backward in time, we are reassembling the pieces of the ten-dimensional universe. ...Every year we find more experimental evidence that the Big Bang occurred roughly 15 to 20 billion years ago... end of excerpts ~~ which brings to mind some of what Sunesis was sharing about in the future - in the book of Revelation when God again creates.....heaven and earth will unified - back to a ten-dimensional universe in perfect symmetry.

...which reminds me of the time i was on a mission trip to Scotland. There i was giving bass guitar lessons to saint and sinner alike - since i have a long suit in being a genius [a genius at what i know not - whether in my mind or out of my mind - don't know that either]. i remember this one young fellow - uhm i think his name was Jack Bruce - anyway, he said to me "I want to be the greatest bass player in the world but i do not believe in your genius". when i explained to him that my bass guitar lesson is work for saint and sinner alike and that all he needed to do was to literally follow my instructions - it appeared that i had him totally befuddled. Then i said "now raise the volume of your amp...go ahead - raise it"......he did - cranked it up to 11 he did - and as he noodled away on the fret board, sounding like a lovesick whale with a croupy cough channeling a foghorn... Jack wept. my ears began weeping blood.....i said "now praise me, as surely as Lady GaGa's girdle will bind up in a cocoon someday - who will become the greatest bass player in the world?" and then i looked him right in the eye and said "you are the man!" and then it snowed on his Marshall Amp.....

just for the record on what i witnessed - vp showing a lewd pen to a Junior Corps girl and showing the beastiality video - was the same night - at our family corps pajama party. ain't that the truth.....as shameful as that is to accept....it appears SO WRONG to me NOW - since i've chucked the TWI mindset.....but how was that possible - the only thing i can come up with is TWI's sedative to the conscience [started a thread about that awhile back]......still to this day - for me personally, the pajama party incident just goes to show you how much insidious power and influence vp wielded over his followers......and i'll be the first to admit it - a loyal follower enabled vp to do this.....i like so many others was so enamored with vp - that i turned off any "security settings" in my brain - i.e. critical thinking. if vp said it, i believe it, that settles it. take the above incident - the exact same incident - from two different perspectives: T-Bone in his old TWI mindset - "this is so cool...hanging out with the man of god for the world...i hope to become as spiritual as him some day where stuff like this won't phase me." T-Bone free of TWI's influence - "i just can't believe that dirty old man got up in front of everyone and did all that and made like he was teaching us something really special to boot!" guess the old TWI mindset blinded me to the fact of how inappropriate all that was.

everyone processes things a little differently....but your posts got me thinking....or guessing....that maybe many folks experience more of a gut-retching eye-opener from reading an expose on the dynamics, practices, hierarchy, campus life and backstage details of TWI rather than checking out dissertations pinpointing doctrinal error. it was that way for me.....after i left - being a study bug it wasn't long before i became well aware of serious doctrinal issues in the PFAL material.....however, it was my wife who read up on stuff at Transchat and then Waydale - eventually she joined Grease Spot - and all along the way she'd share tidbits with me. that finally got my curiosity up enough to join Grease Spot myself.... .....but i'd have to say it was things like the LEAD thread, topics dealing with adultery, mind games, abuses of power and betrayals of trust that really upset me so much - making me feel like any of the doctrinal stuff that i looked at barely scratched the surface of what was really wrong with TWI.... doctrinal analysis to identify a pathogen may be able to explain in cold clinical terms how the organization got to be such a sick and sickening environment - but seeing the virus in full bloom - i.e. stories of people's experiences - can really knock you for an emotional loop! .....it's quite a shock, as the accumulation of incidents from victims reaches a tipping point in your head and you step back - and start reviewing over and over again some "harmless" memory - - like a family corps pajama party with vp.....and go "holy crap! it was right there in front of us all along!" ~~~ i think the old adage "actions speak louder than words" may be applicable in unraveling one's entire TWI experience. garbage in....garbage out twisted doctrine yields twisted practice

great thread, What About It. Waysider, thanks for the old Bill C. Noah routine - i just love that - hadn't heard it since i was in grammar school - a nun had it on vinyl and played it for our class. i lean toward the old earth camp myself, having read some of Hugh Ross' stuff that Sunesis mentioned. i read a book a long time ago The Harmony of Science & Scripture by Harry Rimmer - read it a few years after taking PFAL. i used to have a more rigid viewpoint of the Bible & science being in absolute agreement - with the Bible being the touchstone for truth & accuracy on any given subject - even science. The doctrines of TWI helped to form this opinion i had. however, i'm of the opinion now the Bible is a religious book addressing mostly philosophical and moral issues as well as some day-to-day practical issues - and for me personally i hold the Bible to be a great resource for exploring my faith, communing with my Lord and maintaining a moral compass.....but i no longer believe my faith will fall to pieces if there's discrepancies within the Bible or between the Bible and science....my faith is not built on a book but a person....and besides, i usually defer to science if there's a conflict between it and scripture cuz the hard data of science does not lend itself so easily to a variety of interpretations as a religious document does. i like Hugh Ross' approach on issues - like the ways science figures out how old the earth & cosmos are and then considering viable alternate interpretations of scripture that are complementary. The folks who study things like carbon-dating, physics, thermodynamics, planet/galaxy formation theories, paleontology, geology, genetics, etc.imho afford us with an inexhaustible treasure trove of sublime knowledge about our world and it seems to be ever-growing in accuracy and detail! i also like stuff by Michio Kaku, Brian Greene and Stephen Hawking - not saying i understand it all but stuff about the theory of everything, superstring and other dimensions fascinates me. i no longer hold to the gap theory in Genesis - but lean towards Ross' idea that there are several summary statements on the creation, followed by the author then giving more details. So, Genesis 1:1 being a summation - in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, verse 2 provides a little more detail on that process. In other words,it's not reading as a linear time-line of events following verse 1 - but may simply be a literary tool jumping BACK in time so to speak, to the period of verse 1 and having the camera zoom in on specific scenes: the creation of the electromagnetic spectrum, planet formation, etc.

i don't know much about raspberry leaf tea.....but let me tell you something about fenugreek tea. My wife heard that it helped in baby delivery. Not sure if that had anything to do with it - but lemme tell ya - at the birthing center - from start to finish - it seems like our daughter shot out of Tonto like greased lightning!

right you are, Shazdancer ! i can think of another big difference between a REAL family's love and TWI's love: a REAL family's love is unconditional - the old blood is thicker than water thing.....whereas, TWI's love was based upon the condition that one is willing to comply with their rules, accept their standards, pledge total allegiance to their cause . ....and that's just the gosh awful truth about the whole bunch of hypocritical weasels......and it all stems from the founder....for as much ranting as vp used to do about agape, loving people unconditionally, forgiveness, grace, having no problem forgiving others cuz he reminded himself what God forgave him for, yada yada yada - - he was an extremely tightfisted tyrant of The Way Misery [yup - Misery - that's not a proofreader's oversight- but may be considered an interpolation :unsure:]. .....victoids' Misery a safe harbor - my foot! the love-bombing a slick ploy to beckon folks in - once you're in that "safe harbor" you can be rest assured if you ever had anything of value on board, ol' pirate vic would relieve you of such worldly concerns while he gets you to keep an eye out for the greatest cargoes of life - "yes, shipmates - any day now your ship will come in - just keep working that quiet seas mantra....believing equals receiving.....believing equals receiving......uhm....where's the key to the lock on the cargo hold?"

what a fun thread! memories are coming back now....yeah i remember the colon cleanse - had to do something similar to that not too long ago for a colonoscopy prep - oh the joys of getting old.... never was crazy about the taste of wheat germ how about kelp seasoning i remember a Grace Bliss Cook Book then there's Deaf Smith Peanut Butter - kinda dry, cakey consistency with the oil on the top.almost choked to death on a scoop of that i tried to woof down while working in the kitchen at Rome City campus.....then it would have been Death Smith Peanut Butter....ba dum bum. Knowles breathing techniques - neat tricks to revitalize yourself during a long class .....yeah i remember Tonto making yogurt and ice cream....it was always puzzling to me that you needed yogurt culture to make yogurt

oh yeah - i do remember Tonto having that in the cupboard - stuff was delish on hot oatmeal. i did not remember figpep - but Tonto said she did - she also mentioned postum the coffee substitute - i remember that now - uh uh - give me the real cup of joe anyday

:biglaugh: oh yeah - now you're talking!!!!!! it seems like that was the cure-all for anything. i knew someone who liked cayenne pepper on - - - - - ice cream! and there was someone in our family corps who put cayenne pepper in their socks - perfect for those long cold nights on bless patrol. now here's one i'll admit to - i was coming down with something [evidently there was a small hole in my believing hedge of protection] and following the prescription of a disciple of the Guinea Spice - i put some in a gel capsule - and by golly, besides the alarmingly flushed feeling and flaming hot turds - i did start to feel better....now i also hear the red heat may help clear up hemorrhoids .....darn, another hole in my .........ahem....believing hedge of protection.

Twinky, your thread got me reading up a little more on intercession.... The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia has a few things that hit me big [paraphrasing from Vol 2, pages 858 & 859] : ....intercession often becomes a distinct burden of one who serves God among His people and becomes the inevitable accompaniment of the servant's work for God - especially in the midst of crisis and failure. Intercession becomes more prominent the more the servant identifies with the status & situation of the flock. Exodus. 32:11-14; 31f.; Numbers 11:11-15;... ....in the gospels, the works of Jesus are constantly inspiring ordinary people to come to him on behalf of others. Parents plead with him in desperation for sick children Mark 5:22-43; Matthew 15:22-28....a friend pleads on behalf of a friend Luke 7:3-10....a man pleads for his servant Matthew 8:6-13.... ....Jesus commands intercession Matthew 5:44; 9:38. He also encourages intercession by promising an answer to prayers made "in his name" John 14:3; 15:16; 16:23-26....To pray "in Jesus' name" seems to mean to pray inspired by the word he has spoken John 15:7.... ....the petitions of the Lord's prayer involve a large element of prayer for others. It is significant that the persistent praying in the parable of the man at midnight Luke 11:5-13 involves intercession on behalf of another.... .....the intercession of the Church in the NT is linked with Christ's heavenly intercession - the inspiration of the Holy Spirit enables the Church to imitate within its own earthly life the intercession of its High Priest.... end of referencing ~~ i was checking out New Testament Commentary: Exposition of Paul's Epistle to the Romans by William Hendriksen this morning - what he had to say on the Romans 8 passages Twinky covered and thought this worthy of note - i'm paraphrasing from pages 273 - 277: .....part of our weakness in prayer [besides our sinfulness] is our uncertainty of the content of our prayer being in harmony with God's will....what to pray for is not always clear as evidenced by Paul's prayer regarding his thorn in the flesh II Corinthians 12:7....see also Philippians 1:22-24... ....if the objection should be raised "why not let the Holy Spirit do all the praying? Why should we pray at all?" an answer would be: a child of God needs to - wants to pour out their heart to God the Holy Spirit prays only in the hearts of those who pray God has commanded his people to pray and has promised a response there may be many human prayers which do NOT need to be counteracted by the Holy Spirit ....Romans 8 teaches that believers have 2 intercessors: the Holy Spirit on earth, in our very hearts John 14:16,17 and Christ conducting his intercessory tasks in heaven Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25; I John 2:1.... ....Christ's intercession may be compared with that of a father, as head of the family, for all the family members. The Holy Spirit's intercession reminds us rather of a mother kneeling at the bedside of her ailing child, and in her prayer presenting that child's needs to the heavenly Father... end of referencing ~~ ....not meaning to question the legal aspect of intercession - but i have a problem with trying to muster up confidence or boldness or presenting demands before God....not questioning the points you presented like intercession being a legal sonship right - BUT - maybe it's just me and the backlash of leaving behind a certain mindset from TWI -so what i'm saying is all that legal power stuff is cool - but i see it all as vested in Christ & the Holy Spirit.... ....so on a practical level, the way my prayers sound like are generally very simple and unassuming - probably an easy target for a some to pick apart saying "My God is too small".....i find when i do pray for someone experiencing a great crisis or failure - it is with such an awkward, fumbling, fuzzy articulation of asking for God's help to grant them strength or patience....for God to help them choose a wise course of action....or perhaps ask God to inspire me to lend them appropriate support, competent counsel, provide a sympathetic ear.....to be a friend..... whatever ~~ edited for clarity

if memory serves me well, i recall vp using the line in several teachings "tell a lie long enough and people will believe it" - or something to that effect.....i tend to think he fell victim to his own bull $ hi+....maybe after weaving such an incredibly tangling web of deceit over the course of his career as a charlatan - he lost sight of reality because of delusional obstructions....it's possible he started out with good intentions....it's also possible the lust for recognition, power, and pleasure detoured him onto a very crooked side road. .....hmmmm - that's a really scary thought - if it was no longer an ACT for him....but really convinced he was the man-O-gawd for this day and time and hour.

i picked T-Bone because i liked that character on SNL played by David Koechner.... http://www.buddytv.c...ile/tbones.aspx ...my favorite SNL skit with T-Bone was the one with Christopher Walken in the electric chair and T-Bone is the executioner....giving Walken a quick little zap, T-Bone hollers out "just testing" ~~ ......actually i named our dog that first - then a few years later joining Grease Spot i used the name again .....i know occasionally there's been some confusion over the authorship of a post - was that me or my dog?....not sure if i'm up for addressing another issue of plagiarism right now.

interesting stuff Twinky .....i don't have much to add right now but i keep going back to the passages in Romans 8 you mentioned and think there must be a whole lot of stuff going on behind the scenes that i will never know about. when talking about intercession for others Matthew 5 always comes to mind - where Jesus told us to love our enemies - to PRAY for them! i always use to wisecrack back to God "You've got to be kidding me, Lord!" .....and i sometimes would think of intercessory prayer in the context of Matthew 5:43 & ff was something like asking God NOT to reign His holy terror on the enemy. Matthew 5:43-48 KJV 43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. ~~ something i see in the above passage - making intercessory prayer for another - in a most unusual and challenging context - like for one's enemy - it can also have a profound effect on the one praying - becoming a little more like our Father [verse 45].