T-Bone

great posts Penworks! i'll add that "Religious Literacy" book to my list of must-read along with some others you mentioned in the front page article. and for the record i just want to add i really appreciate not only your input here but the that of other folks who contribute thought provoking ideas which does more than open up some new vistas in understanding - it is sort of a goad to hone one's analytical skills. ....in some respects coming to Grease Spot has had a major impact on what i believe....not only in questioning every aspect of PFAL and the whole TWI lifestyle/mindset but even going deeper to perhaps the very core of my belief system.....maybe some would consider it "damaged faith" but i guess i've gotten down to the essence of what makes by "faith" [or whatever you want to call it] tick. it's really just a return to my childhood "faith" - with a love and awe that i held for science and discovering all about this world of ours - there was some kind of reasoning in my head that the God my parents and church referred to truly existed and was responsible for all that.

that reminds me of the eternity cologne slogan "i don't know where you end and i begin" ....now there was an enterprising person - instead of complaining about multiple sources quotes all run together - they just made an ad campaign out of it.

that's ditto for me ...uhm...well, guess i could have just done this: ~~ will the circle be unbroken? By posters at the Cafe There's a lot more folks i'm quotin' across threads so far away.

So-crates, you reminded me of one of the many interesting things i learned awhile back at the McDonald Observatory in the Davis Mountains of west Texas. Our family enjoyed a great tourist attraction there - a star party . The guy giving the talk had the most powerful laser pointer i've ever seen - he even joked about using it as a laser marker to call in an air-strike or something....anyway we had no problem following what star he was pointing out...and along the lines of what you were saying about the changing constellations - he said that in the precession of the equinoxes, the role of North Star passes from one particular star to another one. Currently the North Star is Polaris....but around the time that the pyramids were built, Thuban in the constellation Draco was the North Star. http://www.britannic...stronomical-map

can i quote you [or somebody] on that?

Geisha, thanks for the link/article from CRI - he makes a few good points i use to really get into Bullinger's Witness of the Stars - but that and some of his other stuff i just don't look at that much any more. i became somewhat disenchanted with Bullinger when someone pointed out on one of those threads dealing with the errors in PFAL, the picture of five crucifixes that Bullinger used in his Companion Bible [to prove there were four crucified with Jesus] was not an altar but a cemetery...between that and his complex development of numbers in scripture i sometimes wonder if the guy just got into an over-thinking mode one too many times - or maybe it's just my being easily confused [math wasn't my best subject in school ].... i still like his Companion Bible, How to Enjoy the Bible and Figures of Speech but now enjoy them with a bigger grain of salt.....like Waysider was saying - maybe it falls into the Da Vinci Code/Secret Knowledge file. this has been an interesting thread - i just haven't had anything to contribute yet - but in thinking about this discussion and looking through a few Bible encyclopedias and dictionaries i have - i just don't see much concern or interest by the ancient Hebrews over the constellations or astronomy in general. plus the fact that they were forbidden to look to the stars for guidance or information like other cultures did makes me think that as a general rule it was not even fodder for speculative theology. another thing that bugs me is the "plastic" or malleable nature of the constellations- the way the pattern or image is defined is a matter of perception - was it some ancient form of an ink-blot test? .....i'm not big on astrology, astronomy, constellations or anything - but, the images do date back to mythologies of ancient cultures. folks studying the sky noticed some groups of stars stuck together as they moved across the night.naming them and coming up with a way to identify a particular group by associating them with an image seems like a natural thing to do. ~~~ here's the last thing and then i'll shut up - i think it's challenging enough to nail down something definitive on certain subjects in the Bible because of the distance in time, culture, languages, as well as consideration of whether the reference is literal, figurative, symbolic, etc. - and that is a WRITTEN document and not something as subjective as an abstract image. but given the limitations of language and the written word - i think in general it's perhaps a better means of communication than just images.....someone totally unfamiliar with the gospel accounts of the resurrection and Jesus' appearances afterward - would not have a clue about the significance behind a painting of Jesus appearing to two disciples on the road to Emmaus. it just looks like three people out for a stroll - - and none of them have an iPhone - - so how could they be communicating about anything significant anyway :( ...... But for many Christians the painting evokes feelings of joy and wonder. i guess a Bible with God-breathed photographs, pie charts, diagrams and index would be ideal....probably cost an arm and a leg though

"...wouldn't you like to go to church with me..."

1. i don't see how you could have easily accused me of derailing a thread going by the TYPICAL usage of the term [see definition from Urban Dictionary given below]. http://www.urbandict...ng%20a%20thread - i certainly was NOT throwing the discussion off topic - but was merely expressing a disagreement with your first post which assumed a positive relationship between PFAL and grads. - neither was i using troll tactics to have fun at the expense of others - i usually try to be respectful of all posters - and apologize to all for any past offenses; i usually try to direct my criticism/sarcasm at TWI's doctrine, mindset, practices, agenda, programs, LCM and last but certainly not least vp. - i'm not the Human Torch nor have i ever been a member of the Fantastic Four; i don't get into flame wars, personal attacks, etc. - i don't consider myself a grammar Nazi - that just ain't my style; i know i can ramble at times as well as produce a feature length movie-like post WITH commentary but sorry - i do happen to think the data-packed reply is pertinent to the discussion. ~~ 2. in NO WAY does my post # 11 on your "connect" thread give the reader a SCOPE of my belief system - it doesn't even come close! Golly gee - i don't know how long a post i'd need to cover my belief system - and it would have to be available for editing/revising indefinitely since many beliefs are in a state of flux. ~~ 3. i could be wrong but you seem to suggest there's something sinister or underhanded in my post by throwing in the word "agenda"; the merriam-webster online dictionary gives 2 usages of "agenda" - 1. a list or outline of things to be considered or done. 2. an underlying often ideological plan or program..... well, i do try to present my opinions in an organized and logical format so readers can follow the points i offer up for consideration. as far as having an underlying ideological plan......well, i think it's pretty obvious by now to most Grease Spotters that the ideological section of my brain which holds "the sum and substance" of what i know and experienced with TWI has a two word title stamped on the front of the file: "It Stinks !" ~~ since you referred to my post on your "connect" thread - i thought i would not only drag it over here - but also hiway29's post since i key off of it. anyway.....i just wanted to address those items in your post # 202 on this thread - i did not take offense in anything you said - i was just concerned that you dragged my name into your attempt at redefining what it is to derail a thread - referring to my post # 11 on your "connect" thread as IF what i said or the way i said it is similar to what you do.......how about we let Grease Spotters decide.

oh my gosh - so that's why we never see Ham and Super Squirrel together. ~~ thanks again for the awesome pix, So_crates

i love it Waysider - thanks !!!!!! that is so far out!!!! i can just imagine a mechanic running an inspection on that car: "let's see....75 on the driver's side...75 on the passenger's side - yup - harmonic balance checks. Ok, Mr. Popper your car passed inspection."

perhaps any further development of the character Pluto was held in abeyance. 1 and 2 ~~ footnotes 1. this is an editorial alert for all you way-jargon buffs out there- the Professionally Foppish Ambiguity Language phrase that appears in the above sentence is not written to you - nor is it for your learning - it's merely for your mild amusement.... 2. unless you are a former member of a specific Mickey Mouse organization PLEASE do NOT use such jargon as listed on this thread when conversing with humans outside of the Grease Spot Household - Grease Spot Cafe will not be responsible for any miss-communications, misunderstandings, miss universes or Mississippis, that may come as a result of you "holding it forth." this footnote is from my heart of hearts since i have been cognizant of the truth behind the facts behind the jargon for more than a coon's age.....well, at least in this day and time and hour.....gun blast, i love you, i am the beast.

a guilty foot needs no shoe salesman -- oh, never mind.... i never specifically mentioned you.....but i take your response as an admission of being a vp defender.

from the online dictionary: http://dictionary.re...m/browse/bitter definitions 3, 5, and 7 seem the most applicable......but i think the reason for the bitterness is critical. ....reflecting on my state of mind when i posted some rants - i'd classify them as being fueled by # 3 and 5 - the sentiment in my posts was very hateful and antagonistic toward an aspect of vp or TWI and i imagine hard to bear by some.. ...and while the intensity of resentfulness may have died down - i do have some cynicism toward organized religion now [ # 7]. i also think the # 6 bitterness still hounds folks who are in denial over what vp and TWI were all about.....that's probably an initial phase we all go thru when we get to see the underbelly of the beast - perhaps for the first time, in all its ineffable "greatness" and effulgent "glory". ....and maybe that denial is a natural buffer to damper the blow of the shock to your belief system - but at some point i think the bitteness usually alters its role and becomes something like an anti-venom in treating the poisons introduced by the snakebites [please refer to the aforementioned "underbelly of the beast"].. ...but i think a worst case scenario of # 6 bitterness is when the person stays at the denial stage and doesn't move on....and by moving on i mean the person accepts the fact that they were betrayed...ripped off....hurt.... failed to see thru the facade....whatever.... and can now pick up the pieces, start to make sense of what happened, develop ways to prevent such failures in the future..... and pursues new interests while enjoying life. of course this is just my opinion and i could be wrong

well, it may interest you to know that there is a devil spirit named Microdot. uh huh uh huh!..... yup - learned about it in the Advanced Class.....yo dude - check out the trails when i wave my hand !

ya know Ham - after you said that, a memory came to mind of me sitting in an office that does professional resumes - it was the year i left TWI [1986]; i wanted to beef up my resume so i had them put on there The Way College at Rome City. This guy never heard of them so he pulls out this big book....after thumbing thru for a bit he goes "Hmmmmmm.....doesn't look like they're accredited." well i sat there absolutely stunned! "but they said it was accredited!" i hope their "cash cow" topples right on 'em when the props snap in two. justice will prevail some day....and payback is always a b1t ch.

hey!!! you need to stay your mind on one thing!!! now what's it gonna be - the law of believing or the integrity of the herd? .....stay mind...stay! now SIT.... and if you're standing in the gap then you must be a gazillion years old and your street address on the space/time continuum map is somewhere between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 - right across the street from Ezeliel's Wheel & Hubcap Shop [with the sign on the door "we've only got one wheel but it's been a round for awhile"]

Hi Excathedra, i sorta go along the lines of what So_Crates said - first impression - and it didn't hit me as being nice at all. but it could be a misunderstanding - so clarification is needed for sure! And Mstar1 had a good point too - they may be envious of the way you've worked some things out or they're just envious of you being accepted and loved by many here i'm curious as to who sent you this message - not "who" as in their name but who as in their relation to you. do you know the person? are they a close friend? after reading the whole thing i found this middle part intriguing : if you know this person - do you also know of their hurtful experiences? if you know them and know they've had those things happen to them - then perhaps the last sentence is tinged with some envy - though they still identify with your feelings. ....another angle could be is that they side with the person that hurt you; or they just simply want to hurt you for whatever reason.....and in that case, the first part of the message is to set you up - get you to let your guard down as you empathize with their similar experience and then bam! the zinger that knocks the wind out of your sails: no matter how this shakes out - it's kinda mean-spirited in my book - even if it came from a friend who has been hurt.

informative thread - thanks everyone! maybe his doctorate was in Biographical Improvisation.....ok....maybe there's another name for it.....but it's when your credentials are so flaky you have to doctor it up. deep down inside he must have been very insecure....i can see why he encouraged everyone to call him DOCTOR wierwille. and i really don't give a rat's derriere about hurting his "reputation"......call it karma, you reap what you sow, whatever.....he built this flimsy facade so let it all come crashing down on him now <_<

….and taking this shoe discussion a step further….. A guilty foot needs no shoe salesman When a reincarnated man found the shoes he wore in a previous life did not fit, he exclaimed "my gosh, I must be born again of the wrong feet!" If Jesus were a shoemaker: "I will, be thou heeled". "Stoned Sole Picnic" – a late 60s tune by the Size 5 Dimensions. It's about a couple of hippies traipsing barefoot through a marijuana patch on their way to having lunch in the forest. TV Ad: Does your nose run and your feet smell? Then you're built upside down. But despair no longer! Order the Invert-A-Bod today and we'll have you standing on your head in no time. Call now, operators are standing by.

i don't think it's amusing - just really sad - when vp defenders get riled up and project their own frustrations onto others.

at least we're in agreement on that.... "Cheap grace" is from a Christian classic "The Cost of Discipleship" by a German theologian named Dietrich Bonhoeffer:

yeah, and by his own imagination he was THE man of god "in this day and time and hour".

i am not an expert on polygamy - but i am aspiring to be an expert on the HBO series "Big Love" .....and not that i think polygamy is ok or anything but on the show the main character played by Bill Paxton showed genuine commitment, concern, support and care for his 3 wives. given that ideal presented in "Big Love" - i would have to say vp was not a polygamist in terms of making any matrimonial commitments - he was a sexual predator - plain and simple, who used the "ministry" as a cloak to hide his unconscionable behavior.

yeah that is trippy! wonder if it would work if you're using a touchscreen .....i mean..... your hand would be in the way of focusing on the strobing lines .....i'll have to check that out

this is all i could think of right off the bat