T-Bone

...dang it...failed again....i knew it was a trick question...

hey that looks like another scene from that new class action lawsuit packed movie "Unreliable". This scene is near the end of the movie as the train pulled into the Rock of Ages Station.

looking back....it's almost disheartening to think of how many inroads TWI made into my head....it's a wonder i ever got up the courage to even begin questioning anything....i think this "father in the word" idea was a biggie for me in terms of encroachments they achieved. my family had some really dysfunctional issues - and at the crux of it was my dad. a good honest man, very generous and fun loving, creative and technical - BUT - he suffered big-time from trauma as a medic in WW2 [received 2 purple hearts] and never received proper treatment from the VA.....he had a demeaning manner when trying to teach me how to do something - and was very impatient...i usually felt like the world's biggest idiot. often that was how he addressed me "...that's not how you do that, you idiot." so most of the time i walked around really pi$ $ed at my dad. however, my love and acceptance for him has grown a lot later thru time as i experienced life and especially after i left TWI - knowing how some experiences can really screw with your head and load you up with some interesting mental baggage... ...anyway, sorry to digress here for a moment - but i just wanted to show how this conflicted and malfunctioning relationship set me up - making me susceptible to a charismatic father figure.i have vague memories of the first few times i saw vp at some event and wishing my father was like him [gawd - that's scary to say now! - but back then "who knew?"]. ~~ hey, i don't know about all that psychological and behavioral science stuff - but what a father or father-figure means to me is: the one with the authority the one who will protect me the one who will teach me the one who helps define me the one who i can identify with the one who will help me develop ~~ ~~ and you know when i got in - hearing folks referring to vp as "our father in the word" was just like the youngest sibling taking a cue from the others modeling how to relate to dad.... [GAG! - hmmmm no vomitous emoticon when you need one]. ~~ sorry for this sappy post.....great thread though....it really touched a nerve with me....feeling a little embarrassed and ashamed right now for revealing this stuff - but getting that off my chest is a really good feeling.....is that like a mental date-rape or something? when you let someone get so inside your head like that - and then they screw you over big-time.....maybe that's why i can launch into such a tirade over anything to do with vp or TWI. ~~ ok, i'm done....cathartic session over for today....feeling better now.....carry on...have a nice day

that's funny! liked your something really different link too thanks

one of the first note-taking friendly Bibles i bought was some huge thing that had the note-taking margin in the center of the page running vertical top to bottom. I liked that - so i wasn't writing off the edges of the page. i had a leather cover made for it per my specs - the back sleeve of the cover had an extended flap so i could fold it over the front. it looked cool and protected the Bible in transit. and i stuck one of those round TWI stickers on it. i was so excited over my new purchase - right after taking PFAL for the first time - that i failed to notice that this KJV had NO italicized words in it. Yikes!!! that's just not right! So my first Bible marking project was going thru the entire Bible "line by line and word by word" comparing it to the little KJV Bible i took the class with - and yup, you got it - i underlined every word that should have been italicized in my new leather covered beefy burrito of a Bible with the vast margins of notedom....alright, so i had nothing better to do....for weeks on end. i used a ruler and different colored pens to transcribe numerous notes from way books, magazines plus in later years any really "heavy" teachings from sunday night tapes....when i went into the corps i bought a more typical wide margin bible and stored the incredible hulk. this Bible was the first thing i got rid of at a garage sale shortly after we left TWI. I feel so bad now for the lady who bought it - like i should have cried out something like "let the buyer beware - toxic information inside". oh, i kept the fancy schmancy leather cover - it fits perfectly over my Dake's Annotated Bible....removed the way sticker of course [you can still see the circular shape on the leather - like a ghostly cult orb :unsure: ]. ~~ it's funny nowadays - i'm still somewhat of a study bug - though not as much as i was a few years ago - and i have quite a variety of study Bibles and versions - offhand mmmm upwards of 45 on my shelves - and that doesn't include what i have on software - - BUT i will NOT jot a single note in any of them! and i don't use wide margin Bibles any more.if anything i might use a pencil or highlighter to draw a small arrow or star by an interesting note in a Bible - and i really don't have a whole lot of these Bibles marked up in anyway. now my commentaries, systematic theologies, etc. i mark up like crazy with cross-references, observations, etc....but for some reason i don't want to mark up Bibles anymore....guess i'm afraid of committing to a Bible margin a certain viewpoint....since my belief system has been in a state of flux since '86.

Waysider, you're in pretty good company

i believe that was vp in PFAL - maybe in session 5..... or whatever session it was that vp covers Christ in you the hope of glory

yes Jesus said He was the way, the truth and the life John 14:6 .....if memory serves me well, in PFAL vp is "teaching" from Acts 9:2 or 19:23 where it is obviously referring to followers of Jesus and vp makes the remark of something like "see, even back then they were called the way"

yeah the cult versus cult episode was a hoot!!! .....and that reminds me - seems like outside multilevel marketing schemes and TWI were a typically pairing...sort of the birds of a feather flock together thing. i remember a ministry leader in Texas approaching me with his multilevel marketing business - yes me - someone who had no desire to do sales, never had and never will - and so he tried to paint it up as something so easy to do since i was sitting on a virtual gold mine - that being every TWI follower i knew in my area - saying i could tap into the "warm market" [his words]. i'll mention to Tonto your Sister Wives recommendation.....don't know if i could handle that reality show. a few times when i've watched celebrity rehab i always start feeling really bad for those folks.....it's just sad.....as it is, sometimes when i get caught up in the drama of Big Love - i find myself thinking "there but for an outburst of thinking go I." ~~ edited for translation purposes for pyramid schemes in other cults

you reminded me of the PFAL session where vp talks about the 5 senses are not reliable and can even be deceptive - like seeing train tracks that appear to converge in the distance....thinking about our old mindset of "seeing" biblical parallels - imho, this was a deliberate design started by vp himself. For in noting appearances of similarity would serve to lend a legitimacy to his misery [oops - i mean ministry - musta slipped on a Grease Spot - my bad]. ~~ just off the top of my head i thought of a few things of ministry origin that were used to elevate anything vp or TWI to a biblical status of legitimacy and authority: in PFAL book, vp says not EVERYTHING that Luther, other theologians or even HIMSELF says is god-breathed [planting the seed that SOME of what vp says IS god-breathed] calling his organization "The Way" cause that's what true christians called themselves in the 1st century vp and others starting out letters with an epistle-sounding opener: "greetings and blessings to you in the wonderful, magnanimous, stupendous, and ineffably great name...yada yada yada" when asked if PFAL 77 was going to replace the original class - i remember a prominent leader on stage saying something to the effect of "Did God have Paul re-write Ephesians?" the incredible myth vp fabricated of God audibly talking to him and promising He would teach vp the word like it had not been known for centuries if he would just teach it to others "father in the word" one way of referring to vp [mimicking a reference in Corinthians in regards to Paul's preaching] - subject of another thread right now vp's way production tune of the mystery train 1 ** footnote 1. from a passenger's perspective - one of the many mysterious things about vp's train is its final destination....and speaking of trying to find parallels with vp, perhaps another historical parallel - Hitler - is a bit of a stretch - [although i do see some character parallels] - but supposedly he did get the trains to run on time . ~~ But using a train track analogy - i boarded this wacky train ride "seeing" that it ran parallel to another track - which i assumed was a biblical model....however, at some point on my journey i woke up after a loooooong nap, looked out the window and realized this train was no longer running next to that other track. ~~ bulls-eye, Old Skool !!!!!!!!!!!!! ~~ edited to update the train time schedules

well, maybe - - if we were talking about parking them....but i never was good at parallel parking anyway. ~ ~ yeah, don't think they would ever have made it to the "Unstoppable" phase.

that may be a foolhardy proposal - if needs and wants must be parallel - maybe they could be forced into a position of NEEDING a real job - but they may still be prone to not WANTING a real job.... gosh, there's so many issues in play here....even if i had the ABILITY to hire them to work for a company - more than likely i would lack the WILLINGNESS to hire them.....and even if i hired them i wouldn't know what to do with them after i hired them.

i just wanted to add i don't think "needs and wants have to be parallel" is biblical either

i just love the freedom i have now, like watching all the TV i want! ...... " don't chew?!" as my wife's aunt used to say. Tonto and i got hooked on the HBO series "Big Love" 1. One of the many things i am fascinated with is the residual mindset characterized by the main actor Bill Paxton. He's left the cult at Juniper Creek - but still holds onto keeping the principle alive [polygamy] - even to the point of starting his own offshoot. I think Bill does a superb acting job - [and really the whole cast does] and i'm always criticizing his character out loud for whatever scheme he dreams up to serve his screwy agenda.... .....there's just no hope of making a fresh start when you still have a stale mindset. Besides the fact that the writers have done their research and so many details come scary-close to my "favorite" cult - i think i've pegged Nikki [bill's wife # 2] as a true-blue way corps bi+ ch!.....well, after all she IS the daughter of the prophet. ~~ footnote 1. http://www.hbo.com/big-love/index.html

yeah - i hear ya Twinky.... and maybe to reiterate some points of my post: first off, i didn't want to come off as an alarmist or that i did a 180 on what i thought about Adams' stuff - i did say in my post that i still like some of his stuff....when it comes to the dynamics of relationships & roles in the church - i think he's got a lot right; he also has some great stuff on the human condition, dealing with sin, and developing a more accurate view of yourself. i have maybe 13 of his books and i ain't gonna get rid of them....i just think Adams oversteps his area of expertise when he criticizes the social sciences.....guess i'm trying to say that article i quoted just reminded me i always need to keep my critical thinking cap on - even when reading my favorite authors. ....but understand the way my mind works - if i spot something that i think works well or does a great job organizing or explaining things - i hold onto it. even if i see issues or faults elsewhere in the body of work....maybe a little like what i spotted in PFAL - which was Bullinger - i've got 5 or 6 of Bullinger's books. don't agree with everything he says either...i pick and choose. ~~ back to the topic..... TWI did NOT have a clue about the dynamics of relationships and roles in the church, ignored the human condition, minimized sin and the consequences of sin, for the most part ignored feelings, emotions - even logic, prescribed pat answers [renew your mind, abundantly share more, go WOW, etc.], instead of getting to the root of a problem they'd see a devil spirit behind every tree, were taskmasters who dumped legalistic standards on folks as a way to redeem yourself or address an issue, played at being counselor guided by revelation, recommended hookie pookism to fix problems [sIT, believing images of victory, positive confessions, etc.]..... and some leaders were just flat out mean-spirited old Pharisees hell bent on proving they were in charge - - - so they had NO business counseling anyone.

This talk about counseling brings to mind a shift in my position on it….uhm….well, actually my beliefs have been in a state of flux ever since i left TWI….I find myself often questioning many of the paradigms I still hold onto – even years after my escape. It's been probably within the last year - after digesting some Grease Spot threads touching on fundamentalism….and especially mulling over Karen Armstrong's book "The Battle for God"….that once again I feel a state of uncertainty....and i'm ok with that. ….funny how one's beliefs can evolve when not under the control of an intellectual tyrant. I think I now have more of a liberal theology than a conservative theology – or is that fundamentalism? Not sure – and could not articulate the nuance of differences - if any - between conservative theology and fundamentalism – so, let's just say I've made my own religion – a hodge podge from my best picks of everything I've come across thus far….and since this is not a doctrinal forum I just wanted to note something here that may be pertinent….so here goes…. With Jay Adams' name/work mentioned by myself and others – I stumbled across something very interesting this morning while reading up on another topic/thread about forgiveness. It is getting me to re-think my opinion of Adams. In "Dictionary of Pastoral Care and Counseling", Rodney Hunter general editor - - just a few pages over from "forgiveness" I came across a topic "Fundamentalist Pastoral Care", on pages 448-450: "Fundamentalism is characterized by an inerrant biblical hermeneutic, a separatist attitude, and loyalty to an authority-centered group; thus, fundamentalist pastoral care is primarily distinguished by its pervasive literalistic and legalistic use of the Bible as an authoritative pastoral resource for interpreting, diagnosing, and responding to human problems and crises. Typically, the fundamentalist pastor or lay caregiver represents the Bible with considerable pastoral authority, and often adopts a confrontational stance in relation to parishioner or counselee, a stance believed to be an expression of care in the best interest of the person or persons involved… …According to Sandeen (1967) the roots of fundamentalism extend into the unofficial alliance between two newly formed nineteenth century theologies – dispensationalism and the Princeton theology – at the Niagara and Northfield Conferences… …Among fundamentalist pastoral writers today Jay Adams is the most widely known and influential, and may be taken as a fair representative of contemporary fundamentalist pastoral care and counseling. Adams emerged after a long period during which the social sciences had decisively influenced mainline pastoral care. He expressed several criticisms of this development: that pastoral care was losing its identity in relationship to the church, ministry, the Bible, and theology; that private practice counseling had little accountability to the church; and that the social sciences had more authority than the Bible as a guide for pastoral care… …Adams strictly adheres to the doctrine of separation. First, Adams asserts that the best training for pastoral counseling is not found in a school of psychology or of medicine but in seminary that provides a proper biblical and theological foundation… …Adams' approach tends to reduce Scripture to legalistic prescriptions for solving the problems of life…It offers a static and deceptively simple view of reality in which truth and right can be known and obeyed unambiguously…In addition to attacking the social sciences, Adams often misrepresents them due to a simplistic misunderstanding of their theories…" End of excerpts ~~ The closest thing I can come to in describing the feeling I got from reading that this morning – is how I felt when I first came to Grease Spot and started realizing there's a lot more stuff I need to reevaluate! Getting back to my religion of choice [First Church of T-Bone's Hodge Podge, T-Bone is founder and only member], it is a work in progress developing along the lines of childhood beliefs [specifically elements of Roman Catholicism, like the unfathomable mysterious nature of God and a morally just universe – NOT Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy or Superman], in concert with what seems to work for me. I've always liked Adams' stuff – still do – but now realize that like the many other sources that have had some influence on my hodge podge mindset – I have been picking and choosing what works for me. In dealing with depression – it was a long….long…..very long road to the shrink's office after checking out many ineffective detours along the way. I agree with Adams that sin can cause problems and complicate issues – but MY problem was not being addressed by being squeezed through the mold of biblical models nor was it responding to an act of sheer willpower. Since Adams' does not consider mental health professionals a viable alternative – I exercised my new "religious" freedom by going to a shrink….Have been much better off ever since.

or .....like the founder of the band was a guitarist who specialized in sampling music through 1 a Distortion Pedal 2 and any other band members played air-guitar in homage to him. ~~ footnotes 1: "through" as specified by the above guitarist may also mean "throughly" 2: the Distortion Pedal provided a twofold effect - besides masking the original tunes by well known musicians, it also put a unique mind-numbing twist on said plagiarized music, earning him the nickname "the mislead guitarist"

some time before i went into the corps, the area coordinator conducted a christian counseling seminar - used some Jay Adams' material but also blended a bunch of TWI mindset in the mix.....if memory serves me well, i think some of Adams' concepts & techniques were used - BUT TWI standards rather than biblical reference points were the basis for determining the problem in a counseling situation. For example, at the beginning of a counseling session it was recommended to check on if they were abundantly sharing, attending Twig fellowships regularly, etc. The answers to this line of inquiry were considered good indicators as to the cause of their problem.

imho, TWI always had a misconception about the dynamics of forgiveness in the church - especially a few "minor" details - such as the attitude & behavior of the offending party. Jesus shows the precursor to granting forgiveness is the offending party giving some indication that they have repented - even if it's simply coming to the offended party and just saying "i repent" [see Luke 17: 3, 4]. That is not to say one cannot forgive the offender in prayer or in one's heart - but we are short-circuiting God's process of reconciliation if we relieve the offender of their responsibility before God. In "More Than Redemption: A Theology of Christian Counseling" Jay Adams addresses that on page 82: "...While forgiveness must not be granted to those who do not seek it repentantly ("if he repents, forgive him" - Luke 17:3), the one who "has something against anyone" may not continue to hold it against him in his heart. Before God, in prayer, he is to forgive him (i.e., he must tell God that he will hold it against him no longer). He may not brood on it. But this forgiving in prayer (in his own heart before God) does not preclude his responsibility to pursue the matter with the offender. 28 He does this (1) for Christ's sake, (2) for the sake of the peace of the church, (3) for the sake of the offender and (4) for the purpose of reconciliation The one who has relieved in his own mind and heart of the burden of the offense in prayer growing out of a truly forgiving attitude, will have little difficulty granting forgiveness to his brother when it is sought. And, in the meantime, he will avoid the destructive results of resentment... ~~ 28. He must continue to bring up the issue to him until he repents and reconciliation takes place (Matt. 18:15ff.; Luke 17:3a). ~~ end of excerpt ~~ and there's a link below this quote to another Jay Adams' article that addresses among other things the idea of a self-centered forgiveness - that benefits only the one who grants the forgiveness and short-circuits the godly design of the biblical process of forgiveness: http://graceinthetri...ing-others.html

of course, if the bait & switch tactics failed to get PFAL classes together - one could always resort to the old Jedi mind trick.... .....unfortunately it didn't always work....

yeah i'm pretty sure it was in PFAL too......geez you know you've sat through too many PFAL classes when you still have pop-up footnotes happening in your head when someone throws a quote on the table.:o

speaking of the advanced class - remember vp's the "junk table" - [an assortment of "devilish" books & videos he had accumulated over the years] on display for advanced class students..... ..and remember class, everything gives off something and stuff like that attracts devil spirits..... i remember him saying something about his believing keeping the dastardly stuff in some kinda....... spiritual quarantine i guess so it was safe for public viewing.......so where did they keep it stored in between classes? an hermetically sealed kryptonite-lined vault buried 666 feet below the WOW auditorium? ....i bet he toted that stuff around all year long on the motor coach.....uhm.... er ....well, you never know when you might have to conduct a mini advanced class or something....yeah, dats riiiiiight.

does that make you the chauffeur?

was that drinking glasses you lost? you'll have to drink right out of the bottle. can you see the bottle?