T-Bone

i'm curious about something Johniam - do you not know how to do multiple quotes? i think it would help decipher the content of your posts - who is saying what.....anyway, i've included my post from which you made comments so readers don't have to jump back and forth and so i don't have to repeat myself. within your post i have changed your words to red and posted a superscript number at the end - which corresponds to my numbered response so readers will know what i am addressing. your quotes from my post i left in black. i'll try to make my comments as brief as possible I said: ~~ here's your post: 1. i NEVER said TWI mentality ignored the gospels [reader please refer to my post] - the gospels got demoted by vp's emphasis of the epistles and Acts. he covers in PFAL how people usually hold the gospels "way up here and the epistles are way down here somewhere". i don't have a problem with any differences of events or developments of theology in books of the Bible. it does not change the basic Christian lifestyle. My point on this was that vp played the epistles against the gospels with his distorted message of cheap grace. 2. i prefer to go with what the writer says is the purpose of a book. for instance, John 20:31 states the purpose of John's gospel " but these have been written in this book so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name." NASB ......it doesn't say anything about being addressed to mature believers to show how Jesus walked with God. .....odd, didn't vp in PFAL remind students to just read what's written? LCM did take the class, right? 3. the basic message preached in the book of Acts was twofold: Jesus is Lord and He is risen. That was out there from day one of the church - long before Romans 10:9 & 10 was written...... if i hear someone say they're trying to follow Jesus as well as develop a deep relationship with Him - it seems reasonable to assume that not only does the person feel Jesus has some kind of influence over his life [i.e. Jesus is Lord] but also believes Jesus is alive and well. i think many TWI followers have such a wooden interpretation of scripture - that they tend to have pigeonhole theology. i think someone is wasting their time being concerned with using Romans 10:9 & 10 as a litmus test for judging if the faith of others is genuine - the first epistle of John would be a better starting point for self-examination instead - see the latter part of #4 below. 4. i really don't get what your point is here - but i'll attempt a response anyway. first off, refer back to the latter part of my reply #1 - vp is the one who promoted cheap grace so he did not have to submit to God, Jesus Christ, the written word, social mores or anything else that threatened to encroach on his sociopath lifestyle. secondly,while John 15 and 16 describe a very deep and personal communion in the relationship of each believer and Christ - it also alludes to the transforming power in that relationship - for ex. John 15:1-3 "I am the true vine and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit." NASB..... the gospel of John was written to introduce people to Jesus Christ - the first epistle of John addresses those who want to strengthen their relationship with Jesus Christ with a get-back-to-basics-of-the-faith theme while describing the dynamics involved with spiritual growth: genuine faith in Jesus brings forth submission to His commands; obeying Him issues in love for God and others.

for some reason i thought of the session in PFAL where vp talks about rightly dividing - and he says something about how his wife can rightly divide pie.....which makes me wonder if TWI could ever rightly divide a fiscal pie chart...maybe it looked something like this: 98% Board of Trustees salary 1.48% general maintenance for property and other stuff .48% publishing and printing of books, magazines and Green Cards .03% retainer fee for an opportunity-solving tax accountant .01% biblical research

yeah i loved it too....i had a feeling there was enough people Bill had pi$ $ed off that someone would eventually do him in. and yes the series is very close to home for me too..... i can't say anything about the ending at work cuz i just loaned season 1 to a friend who has watched the show on and off over the years - and she does NOT want to know how it ends.....now, i don't see how she can keep avoiding to hear about how it ends - but i promise you this much - i will not show her your post Geisha !

geesh! can't you just renew your mind to the wrong misnomer or something

then surely will come to pass the saying "gynecologist examine thyself"

Thanks......sure - you can use it, of course....you don't even have to attribute it to me....just say you're plagiarizing something from Grease Spot

i think you've given a nice & concise summary of what the differences were..... and if i could add a detail or two.... 1. perhaps this is one biblical explanation by way of what they avoided: with TWI's misconception of the importance of the gospels [stating they are NOT addressed to us] places a strategic detour in the path of a Christian's developing faith. while they sugar coated it and said it's for our learning - imho, that was enough to diffuse the personal impact the gospels were meant to have on a Christian. The "hey, i live in the grace period, as vp said in PFAL - all i have to do is love god and neighbor and i can do as i fool well please." ~~ 2. another insidious obstacle that stifled a genuine Christian experience was the whole forbidden-zone-Advanced-Class-based-fear-of-another-Jesus thing as Socks mentioned in an earlier post. and this represents a more serious detriment to growth, because i feel the Christian life is more about a relationship with a person than any scholarship with a book.... this is the don't-even-think-about-it control technique. i certainly have a loooooong way to go in this Christian journey but i tend to believe the truly transforming experience of trying to follow Jesus Christ....to commune with Him.....is a deeply personal experience - that is different for every Christian. Certainly not the homogenized, cookie-cutter standard institutionalized by TWI - the ideal "renewed mind hero", walking moment by moment in the ineffable greatness of PFAL. ~~ edited to prove that nothing is ineditable......or is that inedible?......whatever, the typo was just eating a hole in my head.

speaking of using multiple reference points for learning consider the words of Sir Isaac Newton: "If i have seen farther than others it is because i have stood upon the shoulders of giants." ~~ there's a sense of honesty and humility in the above statement.....and i think that's how advances, improvements, inventions, and discoveries in any field usually come about .... the world isn't a one man show. people build upon the work of others - people collaborate with others. now vp's ticket to fame & fortune was a little different...he looked over the shoulders of others, plagiarizing like it was going out of style......and claimed God taught him that stuff.

uhm........er........paying off the student loan i took out for the Way College at Rome City?

in navigation there's a thing called triangulation - the navigator determines the location of a point by measuring angles to it from other known location points. ~~ it's just my opinion - but if one was a researcher navigating through a vast forest of data to find the most accurate details on a topic - i think it would be wise to check multiple reference points. i'm thinking that's the way most normal folks develop a belief system. they take a little from this, a little from that - some things they read here, there - from experiences and observations. but vp wasn't big on critical thinking either - he taught all great inventions come by revelation. from his teachings i got the impression you didn't need any "worldly" knowledge or wisdom. so why then would you ever want to learn from anyone else besides him. In order for a grad to become "successful" , PFAL must be the ONLY reference point for learning. i think vp's model of learning mentioned in PFAL is what leads to confusion - which for all practical purposes boils down to the student adopting/absorbing the PFAL/TWI tunnel-vision mindset. The "light" at the end of that tunnel is the glowing ember of vp's cigarette butt. ~~ edited to get to the point or multiple points....whichever comes first....

Thanks So_crates these are great!

wow! a tremendous point Socks and very insightful ! ....uhm... in defense of my rants i just gotta say....i've got a feeling i was probably a lot more way-brained than some folks you talking about an Advanced-Class-based fear of a Jesus spirit - got me thinking about the challenge of thinking outside the box [the theological box that is]....a bigger obstacle than that is just being aware that there is a box....i wasn't very good at thinking outside the box in way days and used to believe the only outlook to have was the way mindset. perhaps after leaving and then discovering a freedom to explore my faith it was maybe a little like a Lazarus experience - Jesus Christ was standing outside the box, addressing me by name and said "come forth !".

there's only a few organizations that i know of who are big fans of PFAL and hold vp's interpretation of the Bible in such high regard - and that's TWI and the offshoots/splinter groups. i think your question of Jesus' whereabouts was answered by Broken Arrow - and very well put i might add ~~ great post Socks - the only thing i would add to what you said about PFAL and Christ is that in the class vp may have started out trying to set biblical standards on a wide array of topics - but considering how many doctrines/policies/programs deviated so far off the mark over the course of time - it seems reasonable to me that one cannot take PFAL at face value. What you see ain't what we got when you build a life or a "ministry" around it. i understand what you're saying about how vp taught Christ in the class - He's the one great subject of the Bible and all that....but Broken Arrow's post got me thinking of how year after year in the way, more and more PFAL complicated crap got piled on to the simple things i only caught a glimpse of in PFAL...like Jesus Christ. I came out of the class with an insatiable appetite to read & reread the Bible especially the gospels. But my twig coordinator discouraged me - reminding me that's not written to us and recommending i spend more time reviewing the PFAL material. Jesus Christ for all intents and purposes was slowly and subtly relegated to the back seat....at first....sorry to say, but i think He got the boot somewhere along The Way Ministry. may have caught a glimpse of Him once by the side of the road while i was hitchhiking to LEAD. anyway, i'm of the opinion that the lordship of Jesus Christ, communion with Jesus Christ, the teachings of Jesus Christ....the person of Jesus Christ was eclipsed by an insidious mindset and practical application standard that developed in many way ministry followers. ...a teacher may not have control over how the students will understand and apply the teaching - but alas, vp tried to cover that one too, in the way he lived his life - for me, one word describes it - hypocrisy. we've discussed this on other threads about vp teaching the 2 great commandments in PFAL. yeah, that played out real well....anyway, i'm not intending to rag on your post - just saying our difference of opinion on this is a relative thing - dependent upon experiences and perspective. peace, brother - i have great respect for your input at grease spot! :)

Acts 8:13 - Simon himself believed and was baptized - could be interpreted either way. in the context "believe" could signify Simon's intellectual assent to an idea rather than a commitment to God. what makes me suspicious of Simon's faith being genuine is the details that suggest the motivation he had for salvation. v13 says he stayed close to Philip watching the great signs and wonders taking place; culminating in v.18 when Simon saw the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands - he offered them money so he could have that power. and in the dialog with Peter following, it seems to render meaningless his earlier confession of faith and baptism [btw, Luke the author of Acts may have stated both as a matter of observing the outward formalities that were witnessed]: - v.21 Peter said to Simon he has no part nor lot in this matter, his heart is not right before God - and v.22 was told to repent, pray to the Lord that the intent of his heart may be forgiven. i'm not one to rush to judgment on whether or not Simon was really saved - but i do think this passage makes a big deal over one's reason for coming to the faith. i figure it has to be a simple procedure - so whoever desires salvation may come. what has my curiosity in this incident is just what did Simon want to begin with. Did he desire a relationship with the Lord - or just saw this new thing as the business opportunity of a lifetime? perhaps Monty Python's screenplay for this scene in Acts would have Simon saying "methinks this doth have multilevel marketing written all over it." ....and i'd like to add i do see Geisha's point. after reading her post i immediately thought of vp taking BG Leonard's holy spirit class and then coming up with his "own" one-stop-shopping package - - PFAL..... it seems ol' vp always had a "Simon's eye" for other folks' work: Bullinger, Kenyon, Leonard, Stiles, etc......uhm yeah - here's how vp connects the dots - P . F . A . L . ~~ there's a similar case involving bad motives and deception in Acts 5 with Ananias & Sapphira. i think they were true Christians but got side-tracked by temptation. maybe there's a common idea in Acts 5 & 8 that relates to this thread on "connect"....honesty and good motives are absolutely essential to communion with God....whereas, deception and ill intent could prevent or sever the connection.

PFAL is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT gospel than the one of the Bible. The major difference between the two being the person upon which the gospel is based. For Bible fans it's Jesus Christ. For PFAL fans it's vp. After all, vp said "the word" takes the place of the absent Christ. And what is "the word"? the expanded literal translation according to usage [by every true-blue follower of the way] is the interpretation of the Bible as taught by vp in PFAL. furthermore, the CONSISTENT failure by folks to achieve the promises of PFAL is probably one of the biggest reasons for many to not only doubt God's power and existence but even more so - and i might add rightfully so - the validity of PFAL and the integrity of vp. the only "connection" vp ever made was when he figured out a consistent way to bilk folks out of anything of value: their money, their time, their energy....their very lives. Get them HOOKED on PFAL....yeah it's probably like a drug addiction - only this is "The PFAL Connection" [any similarity to a movie with a title sounding close or almost alike, starring Gene Hackman and Roy Scheider is probably just a coincidence] . <_< ~~ edited out of respect for Robin Moore

so was Johnny Appleseed....at least as far as i could tell cuz he was rotten to the Corps. ~~ we lived just outside city limits of a small town in colorado - our neighbors next door were the trash collectors for the city. Which made it convenient on Burn Uncle Harry Day1. We just piled all our LPs in the back of my Ford cargo van and drove next door.....what a shame - all that great music and beautiful album art. ~~ footnote 1. "Burn Uncle Harry Day" is either a proof-reader's oversight or something the GSC2000 Jargonizer spit out after being set to now-the-way's-crap-is-up-in-smoke2 mode. Some critical grease texts have alternate reading: "The way's doctrine really chaffs my hide day". ~~ footnote to the above footnote 2. pyros of Grease Spot unite! ~~ edited for those doing a research paper on arsonphobia

after reading Hiway29's post i just have to say i pretty much feel the same way. without addressing the content, sources and plagiarism in PFAL- i don't believe the word "connect" is really an honest description of the relationship between PFAL and grads.I'm just thinking of how classes were put together and conducted. "Connect" may suggest some sort of fluid 2 way traffic - usually in reference to communication happening between electronic equipment or people. ....but i can think of the three "C"s of TWI's strategy with PFAL to entangle followers. It's a 1 way street. grads check in but they don't checkout: Complicate - take anything easy and build layer upon layer of useless details over it. "To receive anything from God what five things must you know?" for example. run sessions to have the biggest impact on people's personal schedules. save all your questions for the end of the class - usually by then most people forget about them. haven't had much success even after a few years of taking PFAL? well, you need to take the class a few more times then! a subtle theme of my years in residence was "master PFAL". Confuse - often a byproduct of the first "C" - complicate.while this would get into the content of the class, it also relates how the class was run. students & grads bombarded with mind-numbing repetition "night after night and week after week" Corner - if the PFAL life support system [i.e. TWI] was good at anything it was good at putting manipulation, deceit and coercion to maximum use! They worked overtime to develop a such a mindset in followers so as to eliminate any possibility of there being another way to live - other than their way! sometimes suggested in teachings but often a subliminal message - any road other than TWI's leads only to oblivion. ~~ in designing a good maze for entrapment, i think the above 3 elements [complicate, confuse, & corner] would be essential....and perhaps could be termed a forced connection - i.e. ensuring that grads STAY connected to TWI/PFAL.....all this is just my opinion, of course. ~~ ~~ edited for online users with a slow connection

Welcome to Grease Spot, Tony! and you are correct TWI has its own language. ~~ now i'd like to take this opportunity with way-jargon and have a little fun: Realizing he didn't have much time before his corporation would go belly-up he began crafting a simple yet intriguing sales pitch for the classified ads section of the paper: "Are you interested in a business with lots of big opportunities?" Mrs. Pythagorus said to her fifth graders: "....and for your homework tonight do the math opportunities at the end of chapter 7." Two hardened criminals are finalizing the details of their next big crime spree: Bad Guy # 1: "you know, if they catch us this time they'll lock us up and throw away the key." Bad Guy #2: "yeah, we're talking the opportunity of a lifetime." Shop talk one morning at Curly's Big City Plumbing Service & Installation: Joe: "i can't believe they gave the install at that apartment complex to Bubba. He's such a screw up. We'll be going back there every week to fix something he put in." Larry: "yeah, Bubba is such an opportunist." The owner of a 65 Ford Mustang talking to his mechanic: car owner: "ya hear that knocking?! i think i have a real opportunity with this engine." mechanic: "opportunity knocks but once. you have a problem with the main bearing." ~~ i'm here all week folks....

Jesus love-bombing?!?! Oh my.....so He was in a cult too?! :o goodness.... this changes everything..... it figures.....i find out about it on Grease Spot.....

The law of believing has been the topic of a few threads – and a subject I never get tired of discussing. There's more than one way to skin a red draped window. I was thinking about the phrase the "LAW of believing" and the assumption it's right up there with the known laws of physics and chemistry….. So I'm searching the internet about scientific laws and find definitions for hypothesis, theory and law by Anne Marie Helmenstine, PhD [she is an author and consultant with a broad scientific and medical background], here's the link: http://chemistry.abo...a/lawtheory.htm after reading her definitions – in my opinion, the closest [and by closest I mean within at least 600 TWI-light years of each other] the "law of believing" comes to is an hypothesis . Helmenstine says this of hypothesis: "…an educated guess based on observation. Usually, a hypothesis can be supported or refuted through experimentation or more observation. A hypothesis can be disproven, but not proven to be true." So, is it vp's educated guess or a plagiarized guess? 12 years of TWI involvement and my personal experimentation and observation do NOT support the law [or hypothesis] of believing…..it's probably just another case of vp making up his own definitions anyway. ~~ "believing equals receiving" This implies believing and receiving are in some way proportional. The measure or power of one thing has a corresponding relationship with the other thing. Believe big you get big results. Believe a little you get just little results. The law of believing supposedly works for saint and sinner alike. God is removed from the picture – it's all based on YOU and YOUR believing. To the contrary, Ephesians 3:20 NLT declares God is able to accomplish infinitely more than we would ever dare to ask or hope. I'd rather put my hopes in God Almighty than in my puny faith anyway. ~~ Thinking of verses that say things like "believe in Him" or "ask in His name" and "trust Him" makes me think God is not just an integral part of our faith – He is the very basis for our faith. It suggests a relationship between the believer and God. So, I tend to think of faith as something that links one to God. It's nothing by itself. Maybe it functions somewhat like an umbilical cord – a linkage channeling life-sustaining nutrients from heaven. ~~ That's all for now, folks….have a nice day

other than the death of someone [which would be extremely difficult to cover -up of course] - i hate to say this but there may be a few more horror stories [rapes, sexual molestations and such] that we haven't heard about simply because they went unreported out of shame or fear by the victim.

nice post, Geisha! i read a great book by FF Bruce called "Jesus: Lord and Savior" - what i liked about it was the way he examined Acts and the Epistles to show that the basic message of the early church was really quite simple - Jesus is Lord and He has been raised from the dead.

yeah - that reminds me of a poignant challenge i read somewhere - it was a bottom-line question: if all that Christianity offered was Jesus, would i still be interested? back in the time frame of when i first took PFAL i was definitely looking for something spiritual - one of the benefits on the back of the green card really stood out to me - "makes life meaningful". ....but you know....after the class my quest for something spiritual just got lost in the complicated discipline of learning how to sell PFAL to others....among other core beliefs, there must have developed a deeply embedded mindset of PFAL makes life meaningful.

yeah, THAT's a great point....i [like so many others] wish we knew that back then.....in retrospect, one personal incident more than anything else highlights the ridiculousness of the believing-you-can-control-everything mindset. i've shared this before here: one rainy morning i'm driving a company work truck into work - and listening to a sunday night teaching tape on a portable tape player. i'm at a stop sign at bottom of hill and car behind me approaching a little too fast for a slippery road - couldn't stop in time and rear-ended my truck. a few days later, when i happened to mention it to my twig coordinator [she was corps] - she immediately gave me the third degree - pursuing a line of thought, like what was i thinking about at the time, where has my head been all week. i said "i dunno - but i do remember i was listening to a sunday night tape at the time."i wish i could remember what the teaching on the tape was!....all i got to tell ya is it's a good thing insurance companies and police officers don't find fault with someone failing to operate the power of believing.

a few of Mstar's good points got me thinking about the evolution of my Bible reading post-TWI.....from the time i left in '86 up to the time of joining Grease Spot, i think i mostly had a simple, straight forward technical approach to Bible reading and study. I say "mostly" - because the latter part of that interim i got more into systematic theology [which also incorporates a philosophical and historical approach] rather than just the technical side of scripture [the nuts & bolts stuff like languages, grammar & syntax, facts, events, culture, etc.]. To be honest - that can get boring or frustrating too ....and especially lonesome. Grease Spot is a great place of give and take. With the exchange of ideas comes inspiration....a fresh look....a different approach....a more detailed focus....or reflecting on the big picture. ~~ early on, after my escape - i think one of the driving forces behind my reading/studies was to find "the truth" -but the more i got into it - i found a twofold dilemma, 1. - vp & TWI had done such a "great" job of distorting things - i doubted just about everything i learned thru that bunch, and 2. - there's an overwhelmingly vast amount of information out there when it comes to religious studies and it didn't look like my little pea-brain had enough processor power to determine something definitive on a whole lot of that stuff. ~~ Mstar talked about the challenge to formulate a deep biblical opinion - i hit that point too - and i had the same concern about being so convinced i was right while in the ministry and so i didn't want to kid myself into more delusional detours - BUT maybe there was also a rebellious attitude coupled with that concern -like "who says i have to have a definitive answer on this or that?".....i replaced the rigor mortis mindset of assuming i must "know that i know that i know" - with more of an adventurous spirit. my new mantra is "hey, my beliefs are in a state of flux. i'll get back to you later when i have more details." it starts out in a very uncomfortable state....but sort of like leaving Rome City campus on self-structure day - a little scary at first, then gradually you realize nothing bad will happen.... and then you begin to enjoy the freedom to explore the outside world....uhm, remember that 2 drink limit!!! ~~ ~~ about Bibles....i have a lot of them ....usually prefer NIV - i like the version for general reading pleasure and most of my study tools are geared toward the NIV. funny thing though - King Jimmie was pounded into my head for 12 years with wayworld - so i am more likely to remember a key passage or word from KJV and will then use a KJV concordance to find it faster than using another version.[fyi for all you King Jimmie fans - the best concordance that i've found is "The Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible" by James Strong of course, but it's fully revised by John Kohlenberger and James Swanson.....it was compiled and verified by computer technology, uh huh!]. Besides NIV, i also have fun reading The Message, and The New Living Translation. sometimes a passage that sounds so different from what you're used to hearing - can really get you thinking a little more in depth about it. variety is a wonderful thing. for more technical studies i like NASB, The NET Bible, NRSV, ESV, the Holman Christian Standard Bible and the Amplified Bible [i usually plug it into a Marshall 100 watt bass amp , but have to watch the volume level .....or folks start speaking in drums....."uhm... Ginger, you'll have to interpret that now" ]. ~~ haven't spent as much time reading the Bible this past year. got more into reading stuff on philosophy. i feel it gives my Bible study a fresh approach.