T-Bone

WordWolf, as always a great job ! Thanks ! oh yeah - i wanted to add this to my post after Bolshevik's comment on the eyeball claim - maybe it was a corps night or some night of a function or class in the chapel of Rome City campus - anyway - VP passed his prosthetic eyeball around - i think he had someone in front row pick it up to start off - not sure on that...each person could handle it, look at it and then pass it to the next person...i guess you could say this was one of the last times he and i saw eye to eye on anything.. (edited to add memory of eyeball "inspection")

Yikes ! .....come to think of it - - i do remember a swath of devil's grass on VP's junk table at the Advanced Class. Yikes ! it's the Devil's Grass !!!

Yup, Skyrider and Rocky - i agree - we are social beings and i do think the social ties were probably one of if not the strongest bond that kept us in TWI !....what probably hurt me the most was the loss of so many friends when i left - and they did not !

Not sure if this is what you're looking for (and it may also fall under the category of situational irony or something if you think of it in reference to TWI….but anyway here goes ….) often thrown about in teachings by VP and other TWI leaders: The closer the counterfeit is to the genuine the more valuable it is to the adversary. In the world of real money, superior quality counterfeit money can easily deceive the casual eye in an exchange of valuable goods - all to the benefit of the counterfeiter. In the world of moving product – some are fooled in buying a cheap knock off thinking it will last as long or work as well as the genuine brand; the buyer may think they're saving a lot of money but the manufacturer is making a lot of money for as cheap as their crap cost to make. In reference to TWI - the closer the "way tree" and products (classes, books, programs, etc.) mimic genuine Christianity the more valuable they are to "customer retention". Some TWI folks have even been seriously deluded to think TWI is the body of Christ! Think I'm kidding?! I remember a phrase by GeerHead in reference to the mass exodus of corps in the aftermath of the passing of the patriarch epistle – his comment about those who left was something like the fat is being trimmed from the body of Christ. Well, I guess there's another wayism that may hold up (the bank) – if you want a healthy cult you've got to trim the fat. After all you know what they say about staying healthy "diet and plenty of exorcise." Exorcise those evil spirits that hold your "ministry" back! Come out thou foul and fact-filled spirit of thinking. I command that entire herd of demons that's playing tricks with your five senses to go to the Abyss of Abeyance in the Armpits of VP.

cool link and quite relevant to what i was trying to say - thanks Waysider!

Just to be clear - you're not talking about the return of Jesus Christ described in Revelation 19, where it says Jesus Christ will be on a white horse, in righteousness he will judge and make war; his eyes will be like fiery lasers, on his head will be many crowns; he'll be wearing a robe dipped in blood, and following right behind him will be the armies from heaven mounted on white steeds....in case you haven't heard - the bad guys will lose that war and the beast and false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire….ok ….now, you're not talking about vanishing like that are you?

maybe along those lines i was thinking why many folks stayed in for so long - and i keep coming back to human nature. Usually when a person invests in something they tend to see it through to completion. If one buys a fixer-upper house they invest what they can to get it back up to snuff. At some point in exhausting available resources many in TWI realized they had bought a money-pit – and it would be a smart thing to cut their losses and move on. The thing about folks who hang in there anyway – brings up another trait in human nature. Most people do not like to admit they've been duped, made a rash of wrong decisions or that their trusted belief system has failed them.

I debated on which thread to post this - it was a toss-up between the way corps victim…oppressor thread or this one the subtle thread thread /> ….since my post extrapolates on the continuation of this insidious wormlike thread after graduating from PFAL I thought I'd post it here… I assume most new grads of PFAL took the instructions from VP at face value. Speaking for myself, I equated VP saying "you don't go around breaking the 10 commandments" with walking the Word and all the other renewed mind rhetoric in PFAL. I think I was pretty much the Dudley Do-Right type even up to and including my participation in the way corps program. And I believe most of the people I knew in the corps were the same way. But let's say there's a very ambitious PFAL grad and for some unspoken reason is attracted to the power structure of TWI. As time goes on, let's say they enroll in the way corps program (TWI's version of Police Academy – with a variation – a group of incompetent but good-hearted misfits enter a program that has an incompetent evil-hearted moral misfit for an instructor). How thrilling - to sit at the feet of the "police chief" who will reveal the secrets of the double standard. Maybe that same ambitious corps grad was the type who couldn't wait to get their "badge" (way corps name tag) and the rest of the accoutrements of power. You'd see them on patrol in their precinct – turning on the squad car lights to race thru traffic and busy intersections to get to their favorite donut shop; afterward they'd have no qualms about writing one of the fine upstanding citizens they "serve" a ticket for a minor traffic violation. Power corrupts. The absolute truth about the greatest secret in way-world today is that the Power for Abundant Living class corrupts absolutely.

Wow ! i've always wondered what it looks like behind the scenes - great to see the Grease Spot forums in action; i see the shout-box up top, then below that about the way, then open...... TV show mash up down below, a moderator on the left in the foreground and the lurker on the right appears withdrawn and introspective.

Paw / Raf thanks for your hard work - you are providing a much needed service for an amazing group of folks....in case you need any help setting up the server i use to be pretty handy with Dos 5.0 around the time of TransChat or was it waydale.....anyway whenever Tonto wasn't scouting out the real scoop on TWI with our mail-order Zeos computer i was trying to hack into dos-shell.

folks sorry i jump out of order on threads...i read them like i do magazines - i jump all around - skim articles - then back track and read some more - then post here and there - anyway.... Hi WordWolf- yeah i think i'm guilty of that on occasion - i also am good at making "accommodations" in my head when trying to understand something - - like in returning to Trinitarian beliefs i find a tendency to compromise with reason to satisfy the logical side of me; (not saying it's the right thing to do - - and sometimes think it's like the old pop-up TWIisms that inhabited my processor and came to the foreground when i'm trying to make something foreign fit with a familiar or established thought) anyway again - - in making "sense" of the Trinity i think to myself "like father...like son....Jesus said the father is greater than he is....Jesus is a mini-god...or a life size or human size version of God" not trying to be facetious or irreverent here....just telling you how i think....not saying it's right....i get the part of the Word being in the beginning with God...the pre-existent Christ - - but then my logical side will give me hell a hard time over funneling that down into the package of a human being.. ...maybe that's the quintessential battle between faith and reason or at least part of it i dunno.....does this make any sense? i know i should love God with all my heart soul mind and strength - so i'm thinking that may mean some compromising (between faith and reason) is in order....i could be way off track or possibly on another grand detour ....geez the last detour lasted 12 years....oh but i have good intentions /> edited for clarity

I didn't really take note of this until Raf pointed it out in post # 11 ; I think it's part of human nature to try and explain everything about our world - - even if we don't fully understand something….maybe there's something of a little man syndrome in that – "I'll take on anything – even if it's bigger than me and cut it down to size." == == == == A lot of great points in your post – thanks Raf! You've brought up a vague memory I have after I graduated from PFAL. I would read the entire Bible all the way through – several times that year. As I went through it I would jot down any questions or something I wanted to explore (wish I still had those notes). After repeatedly "bothering" my Twig coordinator with my questions about stuff in the Old Testament or the Gospels – he started encouraging me more and more to follow what VP told us to do in PFAL – read the church epistles addressed to you and review PFAL books. And so it goes….another mind with a "brilliant" searchlight directed to turn it off… Anyway one of the oddities I remember noting was in certain passages Jesus seemed to take it upon himself to revise scripture (in Matthew 5:27ff you've heard it said of old don't commit adultery BUT I say if you look lustfully at a woman you already have; and further down in verse 38ff Jesus refers to the Old Testament rule of appropriate retaliation – or something like that – but he revises it to turn the other cheek…and there's a few more like that) thinking of my frame of mind back then I don't recall how I referred to this "oddity" – except maybe to note something along the lines of it seems to be that Jesus is revising scripture. It's not until years later – I'm talking post-apocalyptic – post-TWI years later with that old searchlight of mine turned on - I see in these passages the implication that Jesus is putting himself on par with the authority of scripture….and God! I vaguely recall VP using corresponding hand gestures while saying something like most Christians put the Gospels WAY UP HERE and the church epistles way down here – but of course he'd correct that "error" and flip flop it to show the true value – putting the church epistles at the apex of authority …. Another one of his attempts to write off Jesus and the Gospels.....maybe for VP the Gospels had too many land mines suggesting the deity of Christ for him to safely negotiate around.

Thanks Steve - that's some good insight in my opinion; where you nailed it on VP i marked in bold red; and that first part about the economic & ontological doctrines is something i want to think about some more; i think you've shared stuff along those lines in doctrinal too - thanks for your input; two thoughts from PFAL keep running thru my mind right now "tell me what you think of Jesus and i'll tell you how far you're going to go spiritually" ....and ..."the word takes the place of the absent Christ."....in PFAL class it's like Jesus was just some window dressing in a store front display window - advertising Jesus is sold here - but you get inside and like bait and switch - VP sells you on the word (or rather the words of VP) takes the place of the absent Christ. Bolshevik i should have mentioned this before (but i side-tracked myself when i started posting) - anyway - i think you made a very interesting point here; Ezekiel 14:3 talks about leaders who set up idols in their hearts....the way PFAL was sold - it held the promise of answering all your questions about life, about God or anything that mattered. PFAL appealed to folks wanting to make sense of it all....a one stop, all of life's mysteries revealed shop. maybe there was somewhat of a red herring device in VP's anti-Trinity doctrine that was misleading or distracting... perhaps more of a sales ploy to differentiate himself from mainstream Christianity;..... just a goofy thought here - VP had to have realized he'd step on a lot of toes / turn people off with his JCING teaching - but was he hoping it would galvanize those who already thought he was the man of god for this day and time and hour... ....and trying to answer your question - yes i personally think our focus should be on the roles of God, Christ and Holy Spirit - AND our role as well - which i think gets back to what Steve talked about in post # 4.

Sometimes the arguments for or against Jesus being God hit me as a litmus test by one side or the other to determine who is a genuine Christian. I get the thing about concerns over heresy and a counterfeit Jesus – but I often wonder if there is a possible practical aspect to keeping a certain "duality" of Jesus in mind; where he is both Lord and Savior. In Phil.2:6 & 10 it speaks of Jesus being in the form of God but he did not regard being equal with God as something to be asserted, but humbles himself and became a servant; therefore God exalted him so that at Jesus' name every knee should bow. We also find out in Hebrews 4:15 that Jesus is not like some elite high priest who holds himself far above the congregation as one out of touch with the rest of us puny humans, unable to empathize with our weaknesses – but he was tempted just like we are. I think the duality of Jesus being a servant, being human, and now is exalted – has significant relevance to the Christian; we acknowledge the absolute authority of his lordship, his words, his example but we also can look to him when we are weak and falter and in confidence draw near to the throne of grace.

I agree Bolshevik & Waysider to discuss the nature of the Trinity and TWI's view of Jesus Christ is something that belongs in the doctrinal forum - - HOWEVER - - i would like to say (I've reverted back to my Roman Catholic belief system - and so i am once again a Trinitarian) when it came down to the difference in doctrinal issues (during my first year of having left TWI - i got into reading up on various systematic theologies) like is Jesus God or not - i did a similar thing that Bolshevik talked about - i looked at the practical effects of the doctrine (not only about what that said about Jesus - but everything else) and concluded it was a truckload of rotten fruit and i would leave decisions of where thing's were at based on what i thought the scriptures indicated; and on a practical note - if a Trinitarian serves God with all his heart soul mind and strength - and a non-Trinitarian does the same thing - i see no difference in the practical effect of their beliefs. == == == edited to add an after thought and give Grease Spot a huge endorsement my "exit strategy" was a slow and thoughtful process right after the initial passing of the patriarch commotion - i found myself wanting to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good (I Thess. 5:21) and so it was a slow paced pushing back - and for me it was over some issues i began to notice in some of TWI's doctrine and in the....uhm...i don't know practical application of some of it - maybe just "benign" church government type issues - how TWI managed things... and so over time my severance with TWI was really just about intellectual issues....BUT....later joining Grease Spot where one can piece together some of the sordid details regarding the physical consequences caused by practicing their doctrine - - which is perhaps what Jesus warned believers about in Matthew 7:16 - you'll KNOW false prophets by their FRUIT! - at least that's what the passage seems to be saying - a tree is known by it's fruit; or rather you'll be able to determine the type of "tree" by observing the practical effects of what the "prophet" teaches ....like renewing marriage vows - only i'm talking about divorce vows - i am intellectually AND morally at odds with TWI !!!! how the morons could screw up the practical application of the first and second commandment Love God and neighbor - is beyond me!

TLC quoted an old post of Bolshevik (post # 76): and then TLC responded by saying: Interesting points Bolshevik & TLC…when we fall prey to deception we don't realize it until after the trap has sprung. In II Corinthians 11:3 Paul fearing the Corinthians would fall for the craftiness of the false apostles, warned them by comparing their deviousness to that of the Serpent's way with Eve. == == == == Another interesting point TLC ! No harm in speculating – I often do that too – as I will now – so just thinking out loud here folks: in some respects Adam & Eve were already LIKE God (as indicated in Genesis 1:26); the fall of man in Genesis 3 makes me think of the Wizard of Oz (woohoo the daily double entendre! referring to both the character in the 1939 movie and the "character" in PFAL); in the 1939 movie the Wizard did not give anything to the scarecrow, lion or tin man that they didn't already have (hey there's even a song about it!); PFAL gave me nothing – and darn I already had that before I took the class. As far as what was written in the stars…I don't know; I do believe in the sovereignty of God – a God who inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15) – speculating a little deeper I would think He was not surprised by anything even when Adam and Eve fell to sin. All the prophecies in Scripture would also indicate God has always been well prepared for any curve ball that man or the devil would throw at Him. so God knew I would be deceived by TWI – and maybe that's why there's tons of warnings in the Bible – like Matthew 7:16 – you'll know they are false prophets by their fruits; but how would I know to look at the practical effects of TWI's doctrine if I was not aware of that warning in Scripture in the first place? Or what if I knew of that passage but thought it didn't apply to TWI? There's a lot of truth in something Walter Martin said in Kingdom of the Cults....it was something along the lines of cults are the unpaid bills of the church (that was one of the first books I read after leaving TWI, btw) – and I agree – being an old Roman Catholic boy – I did not know squat about doctrine – it was either catechism stuff, formalized prayers you recite or priests speaking in another tongue (Latin, it was Latin...Latin i say...Charismatics i beg of you please stand down ). == == == == Ha! that is ironic…hey, has anyone ever heard VP teach on how devil spirits will throw pajama parties to show porn videos with the express purpose of numbing one's moral sensitivity? I have – didn't you read my very first post on this thread ? yeah - about this "conscience thingy" - reviewing this thread since I last posted on it – I don't think I'm as dogmatically inclined as I was then; and if I had to re-do some of the direction my thoughts went I probably would not have focused so much of my thinking (and verbosity ) on trying to show the conscience from a Christian viewpoint; whether you believe the conscience is something God given or that the capacity for moral judgement is simply a thing that evolved through the natural course of developing civilizations..….well… uhm …..actually there's a whole boatload of theories on how the conscience came to be….i'm just saying it BE – and TWI tried to make it NOT be….hopefully that's a lot gooder English to reflect how much I've matured on this topic .

ditto on what Don't Worry said about Paw! Tonto and i donated yesterday

Dotsie, you'll have to find a bathroom somewhere else - you know it's Noah's Ark Hour on the motor coach.....Ladies, two at a time please....oh and where's Tick? this has been another day and time and hour from the Anals of TWI-story

You reminded me of something - I watched Spotlight not long ago; from IMDB it's described as "The true story of how the Boston Globe uncovered the massive scandal of child molestation and cover-up within the local Catholic Archdiocese, shaking the entire Catholic Church to its core." And with me being raised in the Roman Catholic Church and then learning more about the veiled dark side of TWI on Grease Spot – the movie packed a one-two punch of disturbing relevance. I can't help but play the overzealous detective who sees a similar modus operandi. You've got Roman Catholic parishioners spilling the beans to the priest in confession and in similar vein corpse students having to submit a "birth to the way corps" paper at the beginning of the program. And besides that there would be endless opportunities for predators to mark their next target if you think about all the "counseling" situations that arise in both religions. I'll have to see the movie again to get the details right of this one scene – where a reporter tracks down a former priest…bishop…some clergy dude…anyway…his name was on a list of molesters in sealed court documents but somehow the reporter got a bead on this guy…anyway…she goes to his house and instead of denying he molested anyone he goes on about how he never enjoyed it but somehow it was to help the victim…not sure i got all the details right - but shookeydoo ughhhh…his whole act of denying that it was pleasurable was repugnant enough to screw up the movie story line tracker in my head….triple dog dare ya to puke on that one!

that's a GREAT analogy Bolshevik ! the family and i left in '86.... and you don't know how many times Tonto and i have apologized to the kids for taking a wrong turn.....geez, a detour lasting some 12 years....come to think of it - i remember seeing a road sign at the turn off "Detour to Crazy Town"...hmmmm then there was "speed limit: 90 mph the first 12 sessions; after that resume turtle speed to end of road"....when i finally got to the end of the road there was another a barricade with a sign posted "Beyond here be dragons" - it took a little gumption but throwing the family vehicle into 4 wheel drive we did a little off-roading to get out of there.

Collateral D, I never thought of how challenging that must have been for you – to be in TWI from the get-go. Having never been in the "driver's seat" so to speak, it would be a very daunting task to strike out on your own. The best I can do to relate to that is thinking about going on family vacations as a kid. Mom and dad did all the planning and prep. Dad did all the driving. I'd sit in the back with older brother and sister. If you interviewed me after we arrived at our vacation spot and asked me about the trip – the only things I could tell you would be the toys and games I played with, comic books I looked at, what I drew on my etch-a-sketch, how many times I got car sick, and how many good restaurants (the ones that had hot dogs) we stopped at. I would not be able to tell you how we got there. We (now my wife and kids) have gone on numerous vacations – and as an adult I know of course how we're getting to our destination; funny thing though – if it's a road trip and it's not my turn to drive – I might be enjoying the scenery, napping…or playing with toys, looking at comics…so I may not be sure of how we navigated that leg of the trip. Anyway – my point is folks that got into TWI on their own may have the advantage of dusting off old road maps and finding their trusty old compass when they decide to get off the crazy detour and resume life's journey. To Collateral D and all the other way kids out there – I sincerely wish you a safe and prosperous journey wherever you may travel in life. == == == == And in reference to the title of this thread I offer an antithesis for TWI lurkers: the three Vs of information are verify, verify, verify…may your thoughts and questions be like a hot knife through butter to prove what is true, accurate, and justified…whether here at Grease Spot or at TWI.

I always find it so interesting how Grease Spot was maybe a key factor in some folks' decision to leave TWI. I guess it so fascinates me because I want to better understand the thought process that got me into TWI and the thought process that led to my decision to leave it. the process of me getting in: Leaving aside the swarm of subtle influences – be it intellectual, social, emotional, or whatever tugs the "under-shepherders" gently applied to me – I'm left with an embarrassing thought – perhaps I was pretty much passive as a newcomer checking things out. I was very much the Rob Petrie (of Dick Van Dyke show) pushover type when interacting with "sales personnel" anyway – but I am getting better – which reminds me - behind every Rob Petrie type I do believe there should be a strong woman like Laura Petrie – and that's my Tonto. Matter of fact – Tonto was the one who got me interested in Grease Spot – Tonto is a great scout - even before Grease Spot she was into Waydale, TransChat or whatever those websites were called. the process of me getting out: The Internet was a great thing for me to check things out. Yeah – I had already left TWI years before but now rather than being passive I could take an active role and look into whatever I want. I think that is the way it should be. It is a self-guided journey – heavy emphasis on self – I am in control…I can go at my own pace…take as much time as I need to process. Online it's just me and my thoughts….and a computer of course. No one is getting in my face browbeating me or laying it on thick and sweet. And now that it's been so long since I left those insidious little "safety devices" that I absorbed have been disabled; that's those subtle automatic responses that seem to pop up when an idea comes along that's counter to the TWI mindset – like "oh you're entertaining thoughts from the devil", "you're questioning the Word", "you're doubting God", "you're not being thankful for the ministry taught you the Word" so on and so forth – you may remember the drill… Collateral D, i'm so glad you're here! You're posts on this and other threads are so thoughtful and inspirational to say the least and i love your sense of humor. Rock on! so the "moral" of this post is: if you have a pulse and can get on the Internet – there's hope for you yet – this post is dedicated to all TWI lurkers out there. PS: as a TWI lurker you may want to think in terms of a soldier who is not sure yet if they are in enemy territory – and honestly you are the one to decide which side is the enemy of course; so for your own safety and security – trust no one…I'm sort of being facetious…sort of not…do not reveal to anyone the doubts or half formed decisions you have or may start having……watch the skies…keep looking…keep watching the skies…ooops sorry – switched analogies and started quoting from The Thing from Another World.....what?! what!? so some people have waybrain i have movie brain...

What if certain people were teleported into TWI... I think therefore I am…out of here What Rene Descartes said during session 6 of PFAL ............. One if by land, two if by sea…but on a jet my drink limit is three. Paul Revere in-residence ways corps flying home for Ho Ho Relo ............ I have not yet begun to fight. What John Paul Jones wrote in his journal about the mounting tension in his W.O.W. family. ........... 8 6 7 5 3 0 9 What Tommy and the Tu-tones (the groundskeeper crew at Headquarters) estimated they could earn collectively in the next 13 years if TWI would actually pay them. ........... I can't get no satisfaction. What Mick Jagger said after taking the PFAL class for the umpteenth time. ......... Don't go around tonight Well it's bound to take your life There's a bad moon on the rise What John Fogerty said to a corps sister after seeing something nasty in the motor coach. ........... Frankly my dear I don't give a damn. Rhett Butler's reply to the lady with the cornucopia who said god wouldn't spit in his direction. ........... Give me liberty or give me death. Patrick Henry's resignation from the way corps. ........... Et tu, GeerHead. What Julius Caesar said after the passing of the patriarch was read. ......... Ask not what PFAL can do for you; ask what you can do for PFAL. JFK ( MC at PFAL '77) .......... It was the best of times, it was the worst of times... Charles Dickens at the Rock, comparing his girlfriend's schedule working the Breakfast Tent to his midnight shift on Bless Patrol. ......... (revised for one more)

What if TWI wrote the sworn statement oath Do you abundantly swear on a stack of PFAL books To tell the truth behind the facts The whole truth behind the facts for this administration Or this day and time and hour Whichever comes first So help you vp May his statue not rust in pieces (edited for hilarity)

i love it !!!!!!! that is soooooo funnny !!!!!! Thanks Collateral D !