T-Bone

Good question, Brainstormer ! i agree with Waysider's post. people are very complex beings - so I think there's probably many reasons that may draw an individual - perhaps some they're not aware of like the longing to belong as mentioned by Waysider. But on the surface a popular Way-tactic that I learned to recruit others was to find out a very real thing the person wanted - more money, a job, healing, to succeed at something, etc., and then explain to them how the keys that they'll learn in PFAL will enable them to attain that. At the time when I took the class I was on a spiritual quest and when they showed me the benefits on back of sign up card I chose "enables you to separate truth from error " (oh the irony of that now) - using the benefits on back of card as a way to smoke out what a person was wanting was part of that way tactic I mentioned above. Identify their need/want - and then target your sales pitch accordingly. As far as sales tactics go I think very little of churches in general that get into the health and wealth marketing schemes. Any time I come across some teaching that goes along the genie-in-a-bottle sales pitch I often ask the question "what if the only thing Christianity offered was Jesus - would you still be interested?"

Skyrider – great questions !!!!!! BrainStormer, by now you may have some idea on how much of a restraint the TWI mindset can exert on someone – and it’s not the same for everyone – since we’re all individuals. I believe the freedom to think is something we confer upon ourselves – and on the flip side, the freedom to think is something we also may surrender for various reasons. I believe Grease Spot is a place that encourages TWI followers to break out of their mental prisons; speaking for myself, I know how confining and real the mental prison feels – though while I was in TWI I viewed this prison as a safe haven from the "evil world outside". It was a courageous step for me to realize that I myself helped build that mental prison. I grant you, some of the “building materials” may have come from another source - the lies and deceit of victor paul wierwille! But my acceptance of his lies as true, combined with my own hopes, fears, shortcomings and desires – over the course of my involvement - made a fairly secure mental prison. I think Skyrider’s questions are a great way to whet someone’s appetite to look a little deeper into TWI. Sometimes it can take just one little thing to get someone to think outside the box (or mental prison).

Rocky, I do apologize for the fuzziness of my post – i always appreciate your posts/input – I think sometimes I go for brevity and wind up painting in broad strokes; I do believe there is something to Carnegie’s principles – and I agree with you – like everything else that VPW got his exploitative paws on – it became a twisted and misused means to his egocentric agenda. I think a lot of folks were captivated by VPW’s charisma and then that morphed into believing they were serving God and truly helping others. At least that’s what VPW told them. Good folks – clergy, staff, devoted followers in programs, fellowships – whatever the level of involvement - doing their best for “the cause”; but they ALSO were exploited – their resources, time, efforts, money – even just their benevolent nature helped sustain TWI’s life-dominating system… I believe good-natured folks who managed others in some capacity - tended to act like a buffer between those they serve and Pharisee Central (TWI Headquarters) - insulating folks from TWI’s legalism – the fanatical observance of VPW’s doctrines and practices. In my humble opinion, true Christianity is centered on Christ. Cults are centered on some other person. When I first got involved with TWI in ’74 by taking their foundational class Power for Abundant Living – I thought it was all about Christ. His name is mentioned a lot at first. But as the class progressed – I came to find out “the Word” takes the place of the absent Christ – or so said the teacher VPW. And if you stick around long enough you’ll come to understand “the Word” does not refer to the Bible or the Holy Bible or any particular translation or version. It’s VPW’s skewed interpretation of the Bible..... It’s really VPW’s Word.

maybe so...but i'm not letting them or me off the hook so easily.... i tend to view their "appeal to nobler motives" as a manipulative form of flattery - like "in this leadership role think of how many more people you'll get to bless / serve" - which sounds good and unselfish - and i fell for it thinking i must have a lot to give - - i'm just not aware of it yet....yeah it's all for the good of grooming another first class flunky for TWI. my criticism addresses leadership / serving / responsibility in TWI -TWI is parasitic and exploits its members - as an organization their modus operandi does not serve the devout followers of TWI nor "blesses" them in any way, shape or form.... - how TWI "manages" people - leads people - is more along the lines of manipulation and is always self-serving to the organization - that is the "greater good" there's nothing noble about TWI's agenda or means...or the way i gobbled up their flattery

this resonates with me big time! and provides further details to my previous post - how someone like me who has no desire or qualifications to be a leader or have more responsibility / supervision / management over others -yet gets corralled into a leadership position...maybe some of you have experienced something similar - a leader blows smoke up your arse - to inflate your ego to the point you take more on.

i left in '86 so i can't speak to the way things are run now (this addresses the first part "Could it possibly be that they have taken a kinder, gentler tone more recently") ... i tend to lean toward your second option (" maybe Jessie just has nicer leadership ") - - something i would identify with. speaking frankly, i was never a type A person...i still shy away from management positions - just because i dislike being confrontational and i'm not good at being motivational or a sales type person either....so back in the day i was more into throwing my support for what was going on, tried to lead by example and usually would comfort those who were down in the dumps - not get all over their case....in TWI i held positions of twig (single fellowship), branch (city wide - overseer to fellowships) and area (includes more than one branch). ....for the record i don't have a good score with TWI as far as how many classes i ran, how many people i got in the class, or amount of money i collected to send to headquarters - - but i will say this - i treated folks with respect and even as equals....honestly felt i was under-qualified for most posts i served in....yeah - i went WOW (their missionary program), but i left in '86 while on my practicum year corps assignment - an area coordinator - and for awhile i still visited the fellowships in my area - but it got awkward explaining the reasons for me leaving my post (i was open and honest about upper leadership vying for power after the founder passed away and started expressed some doubts over how they handled parts of the Bible - this leadership crisis got my critical thinking process fired up big time!). That's part of the reason i post at Grease Spot - i believe there's still lots of good people in TWI and it is my hope they come across this website and consider some of the things posted here.

yes !!!!! that question is a big deal !!!! and i think something related to that is while you are involved with TWI - and the longer you stick around the more you learn what they think of people on the outside - they're just empties floating by....and tripped out believers are almost considered just as low. i tend to think all these "little" negative...critical assessments of those not within the fold (as well as any other unsavory experiences one might have) may have an accumulative effect that slowly "cocks the hammer" on one's critical thinking process - then all it takes is one event or some crisis to pull the trigger - - and then your mind is off and running - chasing down a thousand suspicious trails....for me it was the aftermath of Passing of the Patriarch. maybe it's a part of growing up....no matter how much you warn your kids about the dangers and risks in life - they still want to find out some things for themselves.

Bapsy, I too was raised in the Roman Catholic Church – and education-wise went to Catholic grammar school, high school, and university; however, in all that I had very little education on the Bible….I read a quote in one of those books on cults – that stated cults are the unpaid bills of the church – from my personal experience before TWI - I would agree with that statement....I definitely was on a spiritual quest about the time someone with the way witnessed to me and without any basic knowledge of the Bible i was easily impressed with their rhetoric....one thing i did get out of the PFAL class was a love for reading the Bible...i'm sorry to report that within my first year of taking PFAL my twig leader was so annoyed with me asking questions about things in the old and new testament that he would "encourage" me to just review the PFAL material.....boring Concerning the Trinity vs Jesus Christ is not God – and your question Is there any clear resource regarding the subject? – in my humble opinion, I would say no for a number of reasons – most notably being that of all the biblical topics there is nothing more complex, deep, and perhaps unfathomable than the nature of God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. You might want to check out the doctrinal forum – there have been numerous discussions on this – and I’m sure you’ll glean some interesting ideas from both sides about the issues. That being said – I would also like to add a couple of things: since I left TWI I’ve resumed my belief in the Trinity – especially after devoting a lot of study and meditation to the gospel of John especially chapter 1 as you noted….also in considering the validity of any doctrine I like to look at the practical consequences of the doctrine (or the real life impact of following that doctrine). In that regard I’m not sure of the practical consequences of believing in the Trinity versus believing Jesus Christ is not God – other than it seems to me it sometimes can result in one side damning the other side to hell….But I could be wrong on that….in that case I’m going to hell in an Easter Basket. ...also wanted to add - it's no big deal to me if folks are Trinitarian or not - as far as Christianity goes if they serve the Lord Jesus Christ they're ok in my book.

welcome to Grease Spot, Bapsy! and thanks for the links. speaking of the tithe - i read an interesting book Decision Making and the Will of God a few years ago and it has a chapter devoted to that....it also has several other chapters that might be interesting to ex-way folks (on guidance, choosing a job, choosing a mate, etc.) Decision Making and the Will of God on Amazon

Hi Brainstormer and welcome to Grease Spot! I agree with the others that keeping the communication lines open is so important ....and loving them ......and never turning your back on them. parenting is such a challenging and often thankless job - and i think it's not until kids get to be mature adults that it begins to dawn on them how wise mom & dad really are. as for answering your primary question ( Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?) - - with me it was finding out what a fraud the founding president was (Victor Paul Wierwille) - this i found out on my own....long story short: i was in the ministry for 12 years and going thru their leadership training program at the time (the way corps) when VPW passed away - after which some at the top began vying for power - that made me question a lot of things; but not questioning any of their doctrines so much as i started having doubts about VPW's qualifications; which led me to look into some of the claims he made - i even called the registrar's office of the Moody Bible Institute Correspondence Courses and discovered they have no record of him completing a single course - contrary to his claim that he took all they could offer on Greek or whatever....that in turn spurred me on to look into assorted systematic theologies by reputable scholars and only after that did i get into analyzing the way's doctrine and practices with at least a working knowledge of basic Christian theology. my pet theory on how people get into or get out of questionable organizations boils down to the things in one's own head that can trigger a change of mind. Howard Gardner wrote an interesting book Changing Minds - after reading it i sort of adopted the philosophy of the SNL character Stewart Smalley mocking those self help gurus "only you can help you." i think there is some truth in that. Changing Minds by Gardner if i would offer any advice: don't get so hung up on doctrinal debates - instead maybe try to get the person to question or doubt what makes the teacher of those doctrines qualified to say such things....if you can get someone's critical thinking activated - - they just might see thru some of the BS themselves.

sorry to hear about you being a victim but i'm glad you left in '89 i was a dumb facilitator for TWI - at the time of my involvement i was not aware of the abuse and exploitation at the various levels by those who loved the power they had; i am truly sorry for the fact that i supported and endorsed TWI...back then - what mattered was what classes / programs you had, what you did for the ministry, blah blah blah. Grease Spot is a whole lot different - what matters here is that you be yourself and exercise your right to freely think what you want....and folks care for you just because you're another human being. Word Wolf has some good advice - share your experience....maybe start a thread...if that's too intimidating try private message to someone....getting this stuff off your chest does a world of good...

welcome to Grease Spot, Close Call !!!!! i like your WOWed and Forgotten button idea....which gives me an idea - i ought to make a Rotten to the Corps button. i'm so glad you joined and look forward to you posting more - and let me be the first to offer you a cup of WOW Cappuccino

WordWolf and Skyrider - great observations! Skyrider – interesting you should say the mystique is over…I found this definition online and it fits VP/TWI to a “T” – mystique is a framework of doctrines, ideas, beliefs, or the like, constructed around a person or object, endowing the person or object with enhanced value or profound meaning online definition of mystique Makes me think of another time when there were a lot of exits…

Thanks Human ! think i'll just do the same thing.

i appreciate the encouragement - but work demands are crazy sporadic lately which limits my internetia access - don't want everyone waiting on me; so continue on my friends - i'll return soon; you don't know the whole movie / TV percolating process this thread has started in my head - and that's just trying to figure out what's been posted - coming up with one of my own is tough - i guess i make it too complicated like The Matrix meets Wheel of Fortune.

oh i've got it now, thanks for the hint - but i had to cheat looked it up online - i've heard of that TV show but never watched it - it does look interesting though; i'll pass on this round.

(awake and refreshed after a long work weekend) i re-read the beginning of the thread - think i got the idea but i am stumped over the other half of movie title - so i'm taking a wild stab at it - 8 Million Ways to Die For

that would be To Die For ....one of my favorite Nichole Kidman movies....ooops - hope i didn't mess up the game - i just happened to see this thread....i've probably committed some grave social faux pas - i do apologize. == == == i just knew i did something wrong - i don't know what the hell i'm doing - i just read the beginning of this thread - now i am confused - sorry for this post - guess i shouldn't mess with this stuff....so sorry

Yikes !!!!!!! years ago I was a security technician and was tasked with installing systems in all the Chuck E. Cheeses opening up in our area....do you know how long it takes for several technicians to run wire, make door and wall penetrations for the alarm devices, mount the devices, program and test and verify good operation of everything with our monitoring company? some installations took over two weeks...i'm talking two weeks of listening to the animatronics techs setting up and testing all their rat & company robots!!!!! I think we've taken our kids only one or two times to those pizza joints cuz that's what they wanna see....and even with their much arm-twisting on me that's about all dad could handle.

my aunt took me to the 1964 World's Fair....only two things come out of distant memories: my aunt bought me a beret (i loved hats) - which i also lost later that day; and i saw a Sea Hunt themed detective show - in one of the halls they had a giant water tank with a huge viewing window - Loyd Bridges' voice over the speakers and a "detective" with a trench coat over his slim line air tank is in his underwater office with a desk, filing cabinet, etc. going through the motions of working on a case in sync with the voice-over - really dorky but i thought it was the craziest coolest thing back then since i watched the TV show.... Anyway - i know exactly what you mean about JAL's stiff manner; i've seen him teach several times and went to some corps promos he did; at the time i thought it was entertaining - but now consider his gig as nothing but all hype.....reminds me of a person i knew in high school who would launch into doing some stand up comic's routine - he'd have the lines, inflections, and gestures down pat - kinda funny and yet kinda not since it was an imitation...this guy wasn't naturally funny either - so it came across as just an act....when i think of JAL now i imagine he may think of himself as a consummate salesman for god. (intentional lower case on God spelling)

i saw Star Trek: Beyond recently; i just wanted to say in general i really like what they've done with the Star Trek reboot (or prequels - or whatever you call 'em) the actors have all done a great job of portraying the crew in the early days - i think they pulled it off by not going so much for a look-alike as for an act-alike portrayal....well, i buy it anyway...i hope they keep it up - i have really enjoyed all the newer Star Treks. Since this thread is more about my movie going experience rather than reviewing the movie itself ....i have to share a funny little incident - of me taking my daughter to the first reboot Star Trek (2009). There are two scenes when the movie goes to Kirk's home town of Riverside, Iowa...the first scene is when Kirk is a young lad hot rodding his dad's '65 corvette - as the scene opens the word "Iowa" is superimposed on the screen so you know where this is taking place. when that location flashed upon the screen, my daughter - in a child's breathy voice filled with awe and wonder read it out loud Iowa - as if it were some far off mystical place like heaven or Shambhala or something; i then realized why she reacted like that - she had a thing for Iowa because one summer we let her go there to stay with her best friend and parents who had moved back there recently...anyway the folks around us within earshot started laughing over that...i was a little embarrassed - didn't want to have folks think we don't get out much - i whispered to my daughter - sssshhhh, don't talk so loud during the movie.... a little later - in another scene - the movie returns to Iowa where we see Kirk as a young man now in a bar in Iowa. Again to set up the scene, Iowa is superimposed on the screen at the top; instantly my daughter announces in that same awe and wonder filled voice Iowa...I've been there....as if to say "yes - that is an amazingly wonderful place - - and i've actually been there!" this gets an even bigger laugh from the folks around us....i also realized that sometimes it's the simple things that impress kids the most....and it's fun to experience things together with kids and sometimes see things through their eyes.

Yikes !!! i left in '86 but hearing about stuff like that still really creeps me out ! It's mind-boggling to what lengths they'd go to so they could manipulate and exploit folks!

thanks for that post, Don't Worry - very incisive! For some reason that made me think of Luke 9: 49 & 50 - where John came to Jesus Christ and said they (John and some other disciples) saw someone casting out demons in Jesus' name - we tried to stop him because he wasn't affiliated with our group (T-Bone paraphrase); Jesus responded with saying don't hinder him - whoever is not against us is for us. edited: wanted to tack on a clarification - i did not intend to convey the idea that any offshoots of TWI are doing some form of service for Jesus Christ that is similar to other groups; i merely wanted to criticize the snobbish exclusivity of offshoots - i.e. "you can't do jack-squat unless you're with us and know what we know."....and to cut everyone "some slack" - i'll speak very broadly now and say it another way: whoever is not antagonistic to Jesus Christ can't be all that bad.

I've had The Confidence Game on my Kindle for a few months now - but have to finish 3 other books i'm reading first (Going Clear on Scientology, The Proud Tower, a portrait of the world before WWI, and Life Itself, a memoir of Roger Ebert)....and besides that i've gotten lost in binge-watching Lost and coupled with some long hours at work - i'm way behind in my reading....i know - i should get my priorities in order...in that case Lost comes first ..... but seriously - thanks for sharing that quote from Confidence Game - that has given me a renewed interest in getting to that soon - thanks Rocky!

ladies and gentlemen, that is amazing !!!!! i have never mentioned on this thread that i am bass-player-centric when i listen to music!!!! let's hear it for the one and only Waysider the Magnificent !