T-Bone

forget about it

yeah life is an interesting journey...that is great you help new farmers get established....i keep telling myself when i "retire" or semi-retire - i'll do more to help out around our community. sorry to hear about you parting ways with the Way fellowship - i say sorry because i'm thinking of the friendships and close bonds i had to sacrifice if i still wanted to forge ahead on a path of my own choosing ....Tonto and i have done some church shopping over the years but never settled on any one group....who knows - - maybe when we retire

What you've been saying in your later posts differs from your earlier posts - like #19 (above) – in terms of exactly who knew of the issue.other than the select group of insiders (research staff) and anyone else that got wind of the issues ( from research staff).....I think the "reality" of the situation in the TWI general public was that everything is cool with PFAL, i.e. law (magic) of believing, and all the other nonsense; matter of fact, at the start of working on our research papers in residence - I can still hear LCM pounding on the podium and telling us in a resounding voice don't try to reinvent the wheel – stick to PFAL. I think Penworks remarks about TWI proper keeping a lid on doctrinal issues so as not to hurt sales is a key point here. Hopefully folks did not miss that. I think it's been a little like chasing down a rabbit hole in reverse for me – I finally got some idea of what you were talking about (a select group of those in the know) by going back to your first post and slowly piecing together what little details you've given us in each post thereafter on why you see things differently...... I do apologize for the delay in my understanding I guess I missed that first time thru.....that's why some posters on this thread have been pestering you for specifics.....perhaps you missed that. now that i see your point on the "insider knowledge" perhaps you could explain how the teachings on believing / faith released to the TWI general public for consumption are all that different than what has been described on this thread (edited for clarity)

great ! i was hoping you would... by the way, Galen it's good to see you 'round these parts. Hope all is well in your neck of the woods.

excellent points, Penworks !

Thanks Penworks - i will eat some humble pie now....about the time you posted the thing on pistis i was working on my post and did not see yours - so while i was eating breakfast (not humble pie yet) and reflecting on what i just posted i thought i should go back and edit what i said to reflect the issues you and others have talked about while you were in....the point i was trying to make with TLC was that ANY doctrinal issues back then were not known to the general TWI public - even at the campuses.I don't recall any renegades or usurpers spreading mass sedition at the time. perhaps TLC could elaborate on what he experienced, conversations he had with research staff, etc.

my in-residence training does fall within the time frame you stated - though i don't recall anyone in my corps or elder corps even hinting at this "known issue" you speak of - and certainly not any of the faculty - nor guest speakers like VP himself, his son Don, LCM, limb coordinators, or anyone else who one would think were tapped in to the latest research - although i wonder how much intellectual honesty could be found in that whole lot of bozos. ..oh yeah i forgot to mention that geeky Greek "scholar" Walter C. - for our corps night teachings old Wally would blather on about the book of Timothy....i remember one "enlightening" session when i got a glimpse into the priorities of TWI "research" - Wally went on and on.... and on.... and on about VP's directives of what he should find in the scriptures - before he even went to some institute for New Testament research in Germany - yeah "research"....i mean with this kind of intellectual straitjacket wrapped around a research staff - i don't see that as being open territory for free-range thinking - know what i mean...perhaps there were encrypted notes passed around about the issues of TWI's doctrine of believing. i could be wrong on this but i think you "deferring" to DWBH or Penworks and others to prove your point is a..... chicken $hi_t ..... very cowardly way to make your case. good point, Waysider- i think we're seeing some tough competition here!

curses - foiled again but seriously Bolshevik - great post ! i checked out your link on ego inflation - and it goes along nicely with what i was saying about what's actually happening externally and how you're processing it internally; thanks for that ! Rocky that reminds me of something i read about ages ago - i thought it was gambler's fallacy but looking that up now i don't think that was it;but anyway - it went along a similar vein of what you said about operating intuitively - but it had to do with guessing; and i think the movie Focus incorporates this idea - that sometimes we think we're making an absolutely arbitrary choice in a set of options (like if you to say to me pick a number from 1 to 100) but when rushed to make a choice we often tend to choose something from a palette of "preferences" or "odd associations" at the subconscious level; I may choose the number 22 because that was the number of my old football jersey; or i may say 50 because i just lost $50 in a poker game with you ....let's add emotions as a factor too, as well as memories. Anyway, you'll know what i'm talking about if you've seen the movie Focus - the scene after the big con of betting on various things happening at the football game - where Will Smith explains to his associate how he "pre-programmed" the guy with subconscious prompts to "randomly" pick jersey number 55. it may be comforting to think our brains have the potential to function with the cold calculating efficiency of a computer -but there's a lot more going on down there at the subconscious level....there is sort of a mysterious and magical quality about all that - - don't you think? (edited for clarity)

A few afterthoughts on perception: I did not mean to give anyone the idea that one's perception of a situation is necessarily a bad thing. But factual details about the same situation may be just as important too. Facts of the situation provide the context by which we may assess the situation – perhaps to give an evaluation of what happened. Since I said earlier that we often see what we want to see – i.e. believing equals perceiving – then our perception of a situation can change if our beliefs change. And as I said earlier I'm using "perception" here in a typical fashion as one would use it to express a way of regarding, understanding, or interpreting something; a mental impression. As an example of how perception of a situation can change – pivoting on a change of beliefs I will relate a specific incident – the facts only, mind you – of something I experienced while in the way corps. I have related this story before – but I will keep it brief here – only using it as an example here of how one's own perception of a situation can change if one's mind chooses how to re-interpret it. I will not include names of those present except for the "master of ceremonies" out of respect for the privacy, safety and security of folks; nor will I give the exact date of when this occurred – because I am lazy and don't want to dig out one of my corps journals in the attic to nail down the exact date. So I will just give general information on facts so you get the context. The Incident – I list only highlights of certain things said and done: It happened at the Ways Corps campus in Rome City, Indiana; It is evening; we are having a pajama party and VP is the master of ceremonies; I am Family 11 (younger corps) and also present are Family 10 (elder corps); since this is a Family Corps event – teens are also present; VP holds up something he tries to describe along the lines of a pornographic pen and said it has a small image of a man and woman screwing on the side of the pen – he explained you have to jiggle the pen – to make the screwing action happen; VP invites a very attractive sixteen year old girl to come to the front so he can show her this pen up close; VP shows us a porn video – two women screwing a dog; while the video plays, one of the elder corps quips "Lord I've got a beagle inside" – some awkward chuckles pepper our group; after the video, VP tells us I've so renewed my mind that this stuff doesn't bother me; he also explains his reasoning in showing us the porn video – he said he wanted to prepare us for counseling situations so that nothing should shock us. My original perception of that incident – from the night it happened up until I joined Grease Spot was that VP was always a true teacher at heart and would use every opportunity to train his loyal followers. However, over the course of hearing accounts of VP's licentiousness and sexual molestations (sometimes from the victims themselves – even from the wives of leadership that I was under – most of the leadership in my state were leaving TWI after POP – and they were breaking open the lock box !); now that i think of it - maybe this new perception of VP was slowly percolating in my heart - the cumulative effect of processing those accounts of VP even before I came to Grease Spot. it didn't take long for my perception of VP to change – I should add it changed rather quickly since it was coupled with my pursuit of finding out the quality of his scholarship. So now instead of a "seeing" (perceiving) him as a teacher I "see" him as a shyster who also happens to be a sexual predator. So to reiterate my point – the facts did not change my perception of that incident. That's merely the context; what changed was my attitude towards VP…what changed was the reawakening of my sense of appropriateness and morality – probably from growing up in the Roman Catholic Church….ironic – after seeing the movie Spotlight I'm glad I was just a little old parishioner and wasn't interested in the priesthood. Feeling guilty about stuff probably helped keep me in line (sort of) during my teen years anyway . That's why I think it would be very interesting if TLC would share some hard facts about the situation or situations he refers to with "the known issues of TWI's teaching on faith/believing" ; that would allow others to get a sense of the context and decide for themselves….as with my incident of the pajama party – any poster reading of my incident may still consider VP a consummate teacher with a heart of gold. And that's ok – you have the right to interpret, perceive or understand my incident - or even your own incidents - any way you like. And you may post it here in response to my post. I will not bite your head off. I will not lambast you - maybe your interpretation of the facts I'll criticize - but not you. I will not harass you. I believe Grease Spot is still a great place to be honest and think out loud. "the ultimate truth", spiritual matters, fantasies, speculations, theories, daydreams, nightmares, philosophies and what not – may only have some form of "existence" in the mind; but when something inhabits the real world - be it facts, books, an actual event, a conversation with someone, a physical experience – then one has something to latch onto and evaluate; since i've been talking about perception - this "evaluating" is often an exercise in abstract thought anyway - and that's where having some critical thinking skills comes in handy; if you were a mechanic and asked to evaluate the design of a car for functionality and reliability - you would probably conduct lots of road tests and use diagnostic tools to check all that out. When we discuss TWI doctrines - it's sort of like that. Sometimes folks' perception of TWI doctrine may change - simply because they're using a different set of diagnostic tools and have re-visited some of their experiences during the road tests. Hmmm after I said all this it occurred to me I may be talking about magical thinking after all....I just looked up magic online and found this – "the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces." Well I'll be!!!!! I was talking about believing equals perceiving – and there you have it. I have changed my perception of an incident by a very mysterious force – my mind… ....mysterious indeed. Grease spotters, I am sorry for hogging this thread…I'm just having so much fun thinking out loud! PS - The above incident is a defining moment in my TWI experience - and you might find interesting a thread that I started with this incident, TWI's sedative to the conscience. TWi's sedative to the conscience (edited for clarity)

Oops – stupid me – I thought you were done with me in your post # 31 – I do apologize for that. Anyway to reiterate – here is what you said then concerning that post about you merely stating the reality of the situation – I said When someone says "here's the reality of the situation" it usually means the truth or actuality of the situation; the way the situation really is; what is really going on; a person could use the phrase otherwise of course - but if their version of the situation does not line up with what others have observed with their eyeballs and ears - then, in my opinion it's more along the lines of their perception of the situation. perception is the operative word - and can refer to a way of regarding, understanding, or interpreting something; a mental impression (i'm merely giving some online definitions of "perception" here); we sometimes hear people say "perception is reality". And that's all i'm trying to do in my line of questioning to you. I would like to know - really know - if you saw and heard specific things that made these issues known to you and others - or was this just something YOU were aware of for some as yet unspoken reason. i enjoy watching magic shows; but know what i enjoy even more - when magicians like Penn and Teller reveal how the magicians are able to pull off their tricks; what Penn and Teller reveal is the truth of the situation - the reality of the situation - It was sleight of hand...diverting my attention...It wasn't really magic after all....or was it.... mmmwha ha ha ha ha ha ? (that bit at the end was just for comedic relief btw :rolleyes:/> ) That's why I suggested you relate some real facts. Without getting to the point of what specific incidents, alternate teachings, rogue teachings, conversations with other TWI followers – besides yourself - you appear to be talking in circles to me...and then again maybe it's just me. At least then I might consider the possibility that some sort of status report of known issues of what TWI taught about believing doesn't just exist in your head alone….sometimes we see what we want to see – even in retrospect – that happens to anyone; it's like a nasty little flip flop of some pet axiom but this time it's only "evident" to oneself – maybe it could be stated as believing equals perceiving. Without specifics, facts, narratives, incidents, documents, conversations…or really anything that has come into concretion in the senses realm I can only assume you have come to possess this knowledge – "a different take and understand of what believing/faith is, biblically speaking. But then again, perhaps there are other, more significant reasons for it" by supernatural or philosophical means. And if that is the case – then perhaps you can elaborate on that as well. ….and don't know if you have the time and …..actual substance to share about the more significant reasons. I look forward to your clarifying response in these matters. (edited for clarity and hilarity)

fair enough - point taken....thanks for your response and i wholeheartedly agree with you - everyone's input contributes to Grease Spot's compendium that tells many sides of the story

I thought calling for a round of cappuccino said enough

How 'bout a round of cappuccino for everyone…. ….and I snuck in some Saint Brendan's Irish Cream in case anyone wants to jazz it up

oh yeah Skyrider - going L.E.A.D. was a tremendous "gimmick" - it had no real value other than attracting attention as in an ad "hey, we've put the law of believing to the acid test ! Thumbs up for thumbs out !" in my humble opinion it's just bravado to make you and others think that you're capable of doing great things for God - it was obviously nothing more than a merit badge you earned; you've gotta pay your dues if you want to be considered a success - - a "BELIEVER" . maybe there was a "bright side" to it, though....i remember this one young lady constantly whining about the poor riding "accommodations" in the vehicles and the depressing conditions around truck stops.In one of my "finest" callous wise-cracking moments i said to her now you can sing the blues. seriously - now i shudder to think how we - especially the women - put ourselves at risk to all kinds of dangers!!!! there's been threads that have covered such horrifying incidents while going to and from or at LEAD.

According to some online definitions an apologist is a person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial; a person who defends or supports something (such as a religion, cause, or organization) that is being criticized or attacked by other people. I will admit I am an outright apologist who wholeheartedly argues for the defense of using honest intellectual standards when it comes to discussing all things related to TWI. And I feel TWI has attacked the lives of good honest people as a parasite or some other gawd-awful soulless mooching creature thru the use of their mind-numbing doctrines and soul crushing practices....yeah let's talk turkey about the practical consequences of doctrine shall we. You have stated in this post that you are not an apologist – I never said you were; I merely challenged you to provide clearly identified and defined hardcore facts instead of spouting vague generalities, speculations and assumptions. Without providing counterpoints to those made on this thread I for one am at a loss for understanding why you would make such bold declarations without any basis in facts. Speaking for myself - on this thread or any other thread where i criticize some aspect of TWI you will notice i quote from TWI material, refer to a live teaching or some other personal experience or incident that i had witnessed. I may not be the most articulate person or even half way decent when it comes to debates - but i have yet to lose an argument over what I experienced. />....so if you could pleeeeeeease be more specific in what you experienced. by the way - at best you have been stating your perception of the situation - maybe we'll get a better idea of the "reality" of the situation as you relate some real facts......just sayin' Well, I just might be nuts but that's beside the point. As stated on the main page – and with a little help of Waysider's fine tuning in post # 22 discussions about TWI doctrines, practices, and leadership usually go in the About the Way forum – which is appropriate AND necessary for telling the other side of the TWI story (exposing the ugly, dark, evil, underbelly of this two faced beast); whereas discussions of general religious/ spiritual doctrinal beliefs go in the Doctrinal forum, that is also stated on the main page. I don't understand why you feel the doctrinal forum is any "safer" than the About the Way forum when it comes to discussing doctrinal stuff. If the $hi_t don't fly in About the Way it sure as hell won't fly in doctrinal – it will be shot down – unless you have something substantial to back it up. That's just my opinion of course - I could be wrong. But on the other hand speculation is ok too – and that should be recognized as such…. sometimes speculation gets you thinking outside the box – that's why I think it's ok. Anyway I just feel it's best to be upfront about any bias you have; unless, of course you have an aversion to taking a beating every now and then . I'm not kidding! Last year I got into a discussion in the doctrinal forum – and you know what? I got a tremendous whoopin. I think it's partly because I'm unskilled in the art of debate. I do tend to punch above my weight class anyway /> . I'm sorry but you'll have to be more specific....can you cite teachings, letters, anything that made the issues apparent to others? To be honest a typical tactic of any leader vying for control is to pull the carpet out from under folks' feet; and it's not like they're yanking out any real support; it's all in their "critique" of your spiritual status; was it John T_wns3nd or some other yoyo who remarked on stage that collectively as a ministry we don't have the believing to float a turd. I mean…what the hell is that all about?!?! I did not sign up for PFAL for the express purpose of floating turds! I will NOT back down on that point - /> Did you conduct a survey of TWI followers to surmise what doctrines people had issues with back then? I don't mean to give you a hard time – but putting this post together with your other ones I get the impression you're in denial and don't want to accept the fact that you were as clueless as the rest of us back then....but again - that's just my impression i could be wrong.

perhaps you could be a little lot more specific

/> Yo Don't Worry – hey you and Waysider must have set your posts on simmer mode (the ones I quoted in post # 16) cuz I could not stop thinking about them until something finally did boil over – and so here's a few thoughts. Waysider said "When you believe for something, you become an active participant by dwelling on the desired outcome. You self delude with mental fixation (camera analogy)…" a very sharp analysis and accurate depiction of practicing TWI's law of believing - in my opinion; and then on the heels of that Don't Worry said – "…It was more of a demanded obsession to accomplish an impossible mission.......e.g. make God do what I want or think I need." I think that just shows you how incongruent the TWI mindset can be. I mean, make up your mind! Are you pulling it off or is God pulling it off? On the one hand, you're going through all the drills to believe for something (positive confessions, believing images of victory, listening to teachings on believing, speaking in tongues for it, praying in your understanding for it, yada, yada, yada). While at the same time you keep reminding yourself God is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think – so we keep asking and thinking about what we want. We keep pestering God about it while going through our believing "disciplines" and with this vague notion that is how it's all supposed to work. I almost think it goes along the lines of how the lottery works. I keep buying more and more lottery tickets because that will increase my chances of winning the jackpot. I mean what's a few positive confessions here and there, spending a little time visualizing, doing a few word studies on "faith", etc. – a "small investment" really - compared to winning the jackpot – what I've been believing for all along. Maybe that's the "pattern" magical thinking sees that Rocky talked about in the opening post. I vaguely remember some comic's routine – that he was not going to teach his son about nonsense like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny – but rather explain to him how everything worked in the real world. When his kid asked how computers work (the dad being computer illiterate) simply responded with one word "magic." While in TWI, with my "naïve understanding" of the practical application of PFAL in the real world I guess you could say the a priori of PFAL was magic too…and the world is all going to hell in an Easter Basket too /> . All the "gimmicks" we practiced were a model of believing that was suggested by VP and company – they sounded technical like some scientific formula: believing equals receiving, confession of belief equals receipt of confession, preparation is the highest form of believing, etc. I don't know – is that something like the "vain repetitions" Jesus talked about in Matthew 6 ? He said the heathens think that is how their requests will be heard. Jesus went on to say your heavenly Father already knows what you need even before you ask…interesting how that dovetails into the Lord's Prayer – which of course VP "critiqued" in PFAL as something not applicable in our day and time and hour…or administration…whichever interpretation is preferred in your belief system. Oh my - /> Thinking about all this stuff last night - one of the biggies of VP's sales pitch on the law of believing popped up in my memory; in the orange book, Power For Abundant Living, in chapter four Believing: Faith and Fear, on page 44, VP wrote: "What one fears will surely come to pass. It is a law. Have you ever heard about people who set the time of their death? When somebody says, "Well, this time next year I will not be here," if you are a betting man, bet your money; you are going to win. If a person makes up his mind that this time next year he is going to be dead, God would have to change the laws of the universe for the person not to be accommodated." Every so often I get on this kick of finding something in the Bible that contradicts PFAL - /> - so what came to mind on this was the record in I Kings 19 – the prophet Elijah utterly despondent over Jezebel's murdering all the prophets, sets the time of his own death for the next day (verse 2), travels a day's journey into the wilderness – he then asks to die – even saying to the Lord "take away my life." Read the rest of the account – instead of God supposedly forced to allow some "law" of the universe to accommodate Elijah's death wish, God sends an angel to get him fed and strengthened for another journey to an experience that would encourage him greatly....totally turned his attitude around and he was able to continue his ministry….uhm…in case you hadn't noticed Elijah didn't get his death wish.

you guys have made some damned good points - thanks mucho !!!!

personally, i believe God helps people whether they're in or out or just thinking about leaving crazy town (TWI) - despite the insidious influence of VP, PFAL, TWI, or even the TWI mindset....there is NO darkness, evil or confusion that is so impenetrable that God cannot get through to a person's heart and soul! ...and reflecting on the VP that i knew - when he let his guard down among the way corps - his licentious behavior...promoting his I've-so-renewed-my-mind-that-nothing-I-want-to-do-is-sinful mindset- - i might tend to agree with your statement "but, we're all capable of this" - when such an evil influence is revered...and enshrined as THE TEACHER that $hi_t is bound to rub off onto students - don't you think? ...sure glad i left when i did and did not finish my way corps "training"....yikes - Matthew 23:15 comes to mind: Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. (NIV) ....VP's doctrine is like an intellectual virus that has almost a life of its own - - it not only thrives at TWI but is alive and well in the offshoots. (respectfully edited)

Merely as an attempt to clarify terminology - I'm of the opinion there's actually two "churches": The invisible church – and everyone is a member of the body of Christ; some members of the body of Christ may not be involved in a visible church (see below); Christ as the head of the invisible church knows those who belong to his church. The visible church – every member of the congregation may or may not be a member of the body of Christ (the invisible church); the pastor may know each and every member of his congregation but he may not know for sure if he or anyone else in his congregation is also a member of the invisible church. That being said I also realize that may shake up the thinking of folks comfortable with the false assurances of VP's line of thought – "now you know that you know that you know…" Furthermore – there's sufficient evidence in the Bible that addresses the issues of false churches, false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothing (like VP doing his best performance as a theologian/man of god / 5 in 1 gift ministry, and individuals with a false sense of security about their salvation. Perhaps that is why John the Baptist challenged people to bring forth fruit that is in keeping with repentance – Matthew 3:8 – in other words, if you are saved then prove it by the way you live. I think James addressed the same idea in chapter 2 – faith if it is not complemented by action is dead. Perhaps the fallout of POP had more to do with triggering alarms in the heads of some folks – maybe a wakeup call to discernment. At some point(amount of time to reach the tipping point will vary for everyone) I think many folks looked at the whole mess and said "this is bogus". You know, the criteria for spotting wolves in sheep clothing given in Matthew 7 is simple enough – it does not take a mental giant to figure it out; whether you are a Christian or not if you look at the type of fruit on the tree all you have to do is compare it to a reference point: "hmmmm, that tree has thorns or thistles….alright so it's NOT an apple tree"….Even a non-Christian can surmise that the way VP 's doctrine and practices hurt so many people that it had nothing to do with genuine Christianity! (edited for clarity)

Perhaps I'm being too nitpicky but I wanted to comment on "truth", plagiarism, and doctrine (i highlighted them in bold red in the above quote) Plagiarism: I think VP is way beyond any sort of "typical" plagiarist you might find in the world of published authors. I don't really see him as any sort of theologian or scholar with more or less the same intellectual skills as his supposed peers and merely stealing a few ideas here and there from others. Like he was some dedicated scientist working on the cure for cancer and was so close he just lacked one ingredient to make it all work – and lo and behold that scientist over there figured it out…oh and that one too…and that one…and that one… I suggest folks "upgrade" VP's status of plagiarist to grand impersonator…fraud extraordinaire. It's not like he demonstrated any proficiency of skills he "taught" in PFAL or alluded to in print. Those were merely scripts that any unschooled actor could follow. I will grant you this, his performance was certainly Oscar quality – but I don't think that can be attributed to some method acting skill but rather that he was so swallowed up in his own lies that he lived and moved and had his being inside a delusion. If you've ever followed live presentations of his "doctrine" you may recall his ego-centric reasoning for making a particular point in a passage of scripture. At Advanced Class 78 and 79 and in teachings to in-residence way corps VP one of his most used techniques for adding weight to the point he was making was to suggest God revealed it to him or God was reigning him in so he wouldn't say too much. You hardly ever hear him driving a point home by utilizing one of those "keys on how the Bible interprets itself". For example, "Father showed me the heart of this…" or "Father says shut up Wierwille." And maybe it was at PFAL 77 (it's been so long I can't remember the setting) he talked about how when God wanted him to focus on a word in scripture "the Father would make that word appear real big like it was one inch high." I don't know if he had his prosthetic eye put in yet – but if so – maybe it was actually bionic and the zoom feature was acting up. All kidding aside – my point is these incidents give you a glimpse behind the theologian-scholar-man-of-god façade that VP had erected – with the help of devoted fans of course. Truth: There have been discussions that basically asked did you throw the baby out with the bathwater; which I think is a legitimate concern of not wanting to toss out something valuable along with the waste. In a similar vein, you'll find some posters who don't think plagiarism is that big a deal with perhaps the fuzzy reasoning that truth is truth no matter the source. In a generic sense I guess I don't have a problem with that. Such as used in a criminal investigation – "your co-worker told us the truth – that you both conspired to steal the petty cash while assembling the office furniture near the paymaster's office." But in a philosophical sense, perhaps truth is the aim of a belief system. I'm not sure – just throwing that out there. As a Christian I believe the Bible is true. I believe the Bible is true because I believe in God – and not the other way around. The fact that I am still a Christian after leaving TWI makes me wonder sometimes – is that the nature of faith, being raised in a Christian home, stubbornness, or afraid to think outside the box – I really don't know. I say that not as a means to soft sell my ideas but in an effort to be intellectually honest - expressing the limitations of being human. Perhaps there are some "TWI-baptized" Christians reading this post - who wonder if a genuine faith is possible based on PFAL and other Way material class in which VP "demonstrated" that "The Word" fit together with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision. In that case, I suggest a self-diagnostic might be in order. I could be wrong but I tend to believe that if something is genuine it will withstand any acid test. And I don't mean testing the Bible or TWI doctrine for truth as in a philosophical sense as if you are endeavoring to validate the precepts therein. I said self-diagnostic. It's about developing intellectual standards in order to be as accurate and honest as possible during your process of analysis. I think that should be a lifelong ever-fine-tuning habit in anything worth doing. Critical thinking involves YOU taking an active role in the reasoning process; that is the exact opposite of the mentally stifling "priori" in PFAL and other way material – there you are encouraged to absorb information – and NOT analyze it! In the Blue Book, VP Tells Me So…oops I mean The Bible Tells Me So, chapter 3 Are You Limiting God?, on page 23, VP states "We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual, where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true." According to VP's premise you can just throw your brain overboard. You are then invited to come aboard the SSN TWI-Light - a "spiritually-deep" submersible vessel with the promise of fun and adventure like in the Yellow Submarine. However, do keep in mind the actual journey will be more like a lowly crew member in The Hunt for Red October; you will have to place complete trust in the captain – for only the captain knows the real plan and will keep you posted as to where you are in the vast ocean of doubt and uncertainty and what the conditions are topside…. by the way, if you happen to steal a peek through the periscope and see the SS Grease Spot – give us one ping and one ping only if you want to abandon ship – there's plenty of folks here at Grease Spot who can throw you a life preserver..... ..... In order to navigate in the real world you must be willing and courageous to remove the nonsensical GPS provided by TWI – which by the way is the TWI mindset – it's the flux capacitor that makes TWI doctrine plausible. Some people mix metaphors – I usually do that through movie references /> . As I was in the slowly-drifting-away-from-TWI phase of my journey – I committed one of my first acts of intellectual defiance. I purchased several commentaries at 50 cents each at an estate sale down the block. Nothing remarkable to report about the content – except that it gave me a glimpse of alternate viewpoints – with substantial arguments and legitimate references by genuine scholars. One of them was Word Studies: Galatians in the Greek New Testament by Kenneth Wuest. It was just one short simple comment he made in passing that inspired me to re-examine my own knowledge of the Bible. He speculated what a doctrine-shattering experience Paul may have had after his conversion on the road to Damascus. Similarly in the months following my continuous drifting – I could describe the experience by adapting Paul's in a screenplay for two bizarre alternate TWI-Light episodes. In one version, I am the one who knocks VP off his high horse – a position that he assumed and I reinforced by holding him and his teachings in such high regard. In the other version, I am experiencing the TWI-doctrine-shattering effect of exposing the intellectual dishonesty of VP. Even with just the fledgling skills of a newcomer to critical thinking – I was able to see the stark reality of the nonsensical underpinnings of TWI-doctrine….Anyway, if you buy the DVD T-Bone's Diversion on the Road to TWI-Light, you can view both versions in bonus features. Warning this DVD is rated X – since I am an Ex-follower of TWI. Doctrine: In seeking the "truth" in a doctrine or teaching perhaps restating the question is in order. A good starting point might be to ask if a particular doctrine or teaching stays true to the textual evidence and natural sense of the passage. Contrary to popular belief in some circles doctrine is not God-breathed. It is man-made and is a theologian's attempt to organize relevant scripture on a given subject. The Bible reads like a collection of very long running narratives rather than a textbook on theology; and taking into account the variety of authors, their writing styles and vocabulary, the biblical languages, idioms, cultures, etc. - the process of codifying seemingly related ideas may prove to be a daunting task. I found the short and easy read of Alister McGrath's Understanding Doctrine helpful to putting doctrine in perspective: https://www.amazon.c...anding+doctrine Is formulating a doctrine even necessary? As a Christian I would say yes – and I also believe each Christian should take a more active role in developing their faith. A related topic is systematic theology. Systematic theology – a collection of biblical data arranged in an orderly, rational, and coherent manner to present the doctrines of the Christian faith. Systematic theologies are man-made too – and I enjoy reading the ones that I believe try to stay true to the textual evidence and natural sense of the scriptures. One of the most interesting discussions you will find on Grease Spot is over the lack of logic and coherency in the theology of TWI. Perhaps even more mission critical to one's journey through life is looking at the practical impact of TWI's doctrine. That is a real acid test – where the rubber meets the road – where TWI-doctrine comes in contact with reality. Flashing back to the time of my "protracted exit" again: I was in an office supply store copying some interesting pages out of a book I got from the library - Kingdom of the Cults. By the way – I am the area coordinator, on my practicum year corps assignment. In the store walks one of the WOWs sent to my town. Nervously I'm trying to hide the cover of the book I am copying – even though I had already announced to "my people" I was stepping down from my position and intend to re-examine all things yada, yada, yada. I did not want to alarm him by the latest resources I was checking out. Although I will mention with me being upfront about the doubts I had seemed to encourage honesty in others…Anyway the WOW told me he had just quit his job because he "could not think The Word there." Reflecting on that time I really don't see that as a failure on the WOW's part. It's a failure of TWI doctrine – referring back to that acid test thing – it's the practical consequence of a belief system that does not work in the real world! One of the claims on the back of the PFAL sign up card was disciplines the mind by believing. All the drills, activities, exercises, regimens, positive affirmations, believing images of victory, yada, yada, yada does nothing to prepare one for work in the real world! Another promise of TWI-doctrine is that it increases prosperity. Yeah – I sold an electric guitar, circular saw and cabinet clamps to have some money so I could hitch to and from the Rock of Ages…yeah increases prosperity my foot (well ….sometimes I did have to walk if a ride wasn't "available"). Develops more harmony in the home? Want to talk about the prevalence of divorces, families splitting up and maybe you want to throw in disassociating with anyone who doesn't think "The Word comes first." It seems ridiculous to advertise that your "product" will enable you to achieve all these great things – when the experience of your customers proves otherwise. It might make more sense to join a monastery, take vows of poverty…celibacy or whatever monk candidates do to enroll – at least you're more likely to receive recognition by outsiders for the sacrifices you've made.

The last time i remember going to see a blockbuster movie on opening weekend was back in 1980 i think - stood in line for OVER two hours for a two hour movie - The Empire Strikes Back , and yeah i live a boring existence too.....i usually go during the week or wait awhile until all the fuss dies down. Plus i do not like crowds....even back in my concert going days as a teen.... yeah pack me in a tight space with a bunch of strangers whooping and hollerin' over the thrills and chills...naw - reminds me of being on a New York subway . i still managed to enjoy the movie on some level....just wanted an excuse to post in this forum i guess....and maybe just a little ticked off that i paid to see it in a theater....every review i heard about Resurgence was bad. i'll usually gather as much info and feedback about a movie that interests me long before i go to see it so i can manage expectations.....so the reviews were bad - but i threw frugal thinking aside - rather to wait until it was "free" on cable (yeah let's talk cable bill shall we) - i bought a movie ticket. ...and if i'm a big enough fan of a certain series or franchise i'll even buy the DVD instead of seeing it in the movies just to satisfy the fan / collector / hoarder in me - that's whether or not reviews were good or bad; i did that for the Fantastic Four movies (original cast and remake) just because they were my number one favorite comic book heroes back in my pre-teen days - and even though most reviews i read or heard were very critical... ..i don't know ....maybe i'm getting easier to please in my old age...goes along with my pragmatic philosophy of late - something is better than nothing....so i turn to my inner kid and say "hey, i've got the latest sucky movie of the Fantastic Four !" and my inner kid responds "something is better than nothing." which is true - there's not a whole lot of movies out there featuring the Fantastic Four....wonder if it's a conspiracy.

Great post with great points, Raf ! after finishing PFAL for the first time i remember thinking why don't they get this stuff out to the churches ASAP - forget about making church folks sit through a long class - just have grads share what they know. interesting thread - thanks Don't Worry and everyone else who posted.

I think it's great we already have both! I've read a few revealing books by ex-way folks and as Rocky mentioned I also look forward to Penworks' Undertow – btw she does have a very interesting blog too. I bet there will be more books by others coming out in the future. WordWolf has done a fantastic job on various timelines – an invaluable resource on Grease Spot, and don't forget the analysis coherently expressed in podcasts and posts by some very articulate folks. I'm ok with any drama at Grease Spot – I figure it comes with the territory; sorting through the ugly details, dealing with any mental baggage or just trying to articulate an issue can get messy and challenge one's interpersonal skills. I also believe when something rings true it comes across loud and clear through any "noise" – even if it has to make the long and arduous journey through emotionally laden posts /> . A lot can be said for the interaction on Grease Spot. I like the give and take dynamic on threads and in chat (haven't done that in a long time though) - you don't get that from reading a book. (edited to add the interactive feature of Grease Spot - came to me 2 seconds after i posted)