T-Bone

Yikes - the only way i'm comfortable with going 50 mph is inside something that has a seat belt, airbags, crumple zones.........and ice cold air conditioning...anyway I'm just too much of a scaredy cat. but it sounds like you had fun - and it sounds like a way cool experience; thanks for sharing.

I think groups like TWI and Scientology are parasitic in nature. As an organism, a parasite lives off another organism (the host) by deriving nutrients from the host. When referring to a person or group being parasitic – it means they habitually exploit others and give nothing in return. I think some folks here have referenced the powerful imagery in The Matrix scene where the vast cells of human "batteries" are shown that power the matrix.

mad libs phone home !

I'm almost halfway thru the book Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood and the Prison of Belief by Lawrence Wright, and then I happened upon this thread. And I thought the similarities I found around pages 177 to 182 were worth posting. I guess there's only so many ways one can try to manipulate and control people – maybe all cult leaders think alike…. I don't know… ….anyway wanted to mention a few points Wright makes that go along the theme of this thread…some of Wright's points (listed below) refer to the work of Robert Jay Lifton a young American psychiatrist who began studying victims of what Chinese Communists called thought reform: Dogma is promoted as incontestable (or as Wright puts it scientifically incontestable). Resistance is not just immoral; it's illogical and unscientific. Language is constricted by thought-terminating clichés; complex issues are compressed into brief, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. The combination of enforced logic and clichéd discourse creates a kind of melodrama – formulaic thoughts and handicapped language substitute for real emotions and hamper a complex understanding of human nature. Going Clear also makes reference to a pamphlet supposedly from a speech by the head of the Soviet Secret Police under Stalin – the text specifies how to realign the goals of the individual with those of the group: Undermine the ability of the person to think and act on their own. Destroy loyalty to family. Destroy loyalty to friends. Ultimately, all other emotional claims on the person have been broken; only the State or the group remains. Going Clear by Wright

speaking of songs - there was a tune by Steve Winwood that became something like an anthem for me and my wife Tonto when we first left TWI; really the one line that gets me every time is "...All the doors I closed one time will open up again..." that and a few other lines speak of a typical TWI experience - always busy, on the go for the ministry, how we closed doors to our life before TWI and shut out anything not approved by TWI...shut out the world (as defined by TWI) some of us broke off relationships because we thought we should put "the word and the ministry first" even before someone we love... hope i haven't done an awful disservice to Steve Winwood in my re-interpretation of his beautiful lyrics; i am a big fan btw - recently bought a CD of Steve Winwood and Eric Clapton live at Madison Square Garden.....anyway here's the lyrics: "Back In The High Life Again" by Steve Winwood It used to seem to me That my life ran on too fast And I had to take it slowly Just to make the good parts last But when you're born to run It's so hard to just slow down So don't be surprised to see me Back in that bright part of town I'll be back in the high life again All the doors I closed one time will open up again I'll be back in the high life again All the eyes that watched me once will smile and take me in And I'll drink and dance with one hand free Let the world back into me And on I'll be a sight to see Back in the high life again You used to be the best To make life be life to me And I hope that you're still out there And you're like you used to be We'll have ourselves a time And we'll dance 'til the morning sun And we'll let the good times come in And we won't stop 'til we're done We'll be back in the high life again All the doors I closed one time will open up again We'll be back in the high life again All the eyes that watched us once will smile and take us in And we'll drink and dance with one hand free And have the world so easily And oh we'll be a sight to see Back in the high life again We'll be back in the high life again All the doors I closed one time will open up again We'll be back in the high life again All the eyes that watched us once will smile and take us in And we'll drink and dance with one hand free And have the world so easily And oh we'll be a sight to see Back in the high life again

yeah i think B and C are acceptable too. Ha - good one Waysider - /> however surely you must realize no matter upon which of TWI's limbs you place your trust you're putting yourself in a dangerous and uncompromising position and will find very little support from Grease Spot - /> !!!!! (FYI - If i were a limb coordinator who had left TWI i think it would have been so cool if i had a long list of resignations signed by all the TWI followers in my state and have at the bottom of the letter a new state motto - like Texas - the tripped out state )

I think I understand; you sound resolute in what you say – and expressing a concern of being sucked back may just be anticipating all the manipulative techniques leadership could use – and that concern is a good thing! It might be some good prep to anticipate scenarios and dialogues and rehearse your response. I left during my assignment year – (I think that's called the practicum year – hell, I asked my wife and she couldn't remember either – /> – that's maybe a good thing - anyway it's after 2 years in residence) – in the aftermath of "passing of a patriarch" (POP) I kept coming up with questions, questions, and more questions about everything; first I had questions about issues that were brought up in POP, since TWI leadership stonewalled me on all points, I slowly began focusing a critical eye on everything – even PFAL; one verse (listed below) I kept referring to whether it was in my resignation letters to TWI leadership or to believers in my area (we still went to various Twigs for a while – it was awkward though being the former area coordinator and wanting to just hang out and fellowship ) But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good - I Thessalonians 5:21 NASB As far as attempting to sort out the truth from lies in TWI's teachings – I'm sure you'll get a lot of feedback from Grease Spot; you may find it helpful to do some Internet searches and check out mainstream Christian doctrines – merely as an exercise in alternate viewpoints and analyzing ala I Thessalonians 5:21; wouldn't hurt to check out critical thinking on the Internet too.... A few books that helped me at first were:Scripture Twisting by J Squire Understanding the Bible by Stott Beyond Seduction by Hunt Besides re-examining all TWI doctrine you'll probably find some mental baggage along your journey; that may prove to be a trickier thing to work out. That's where Grease Spot comes in handy – and having open and honest communication with your wife. I wish you and your wife the best on your journey to freedom. Welcome to Grease Spot, Blue Cord – I'm glad you joined !!!!

continuing the line of thought from my previous post i would have to say only God knows. in my humble opinion i find it truly challenging to attempt to speak for God when dealing with most hypothetical situations; i usually shy away from conundrums like that - it reminds me of the question "can God create a rock He cannot lift?"

since i know only a smidgen of Christian stuff and zilcho of Islamic stuff other than i think Muslims accept the first five books of Moses - so doctrine-wise on that point alone i tend to think we might find some common threads - at least up to a point; the topic does bring up an interesting idea though and i guess even though there's still a lot to argue about over the distinctions and nuances in the respective systems of thought - it does make me wonder - in reality -if the same God is worshiped - to some degree...and i guess we'd have to discuss what is worship too. and to say that i'm wondering what's happening in reality - is really to be curious about what God thinks about this.....i don't have a clue

Understood and it makes sense that way....my comment focused on the humanity of Jesus Christ - - as Philippians 2 mentions he emptied himself - intending to take on the limitations of man - he humbled himself and became obedient even unto death for our salvation.

I haven't browsed thru doctrinal in a while so for me you raise some new and interesting points about the Trinity and TWI. I'm afraid I don't have anything noteworthy to say about the five points in your list but I would like to say something about and the long-lasting effect the non-Trinity view (I highlighted your statement bold red) had on me - - perhaps even to present day. I'm not bringing this up as a way to bash VP – rather it's a way for me to assess the damage to my faith; I am a Trinitarian - - although for me that has bearing more on the practical side than the doctrinal side. In Understanding the Trinity Alister McGrath talks about the tendency of those who are philosophically inclined may tend to talk about God as if He was some sort of concept. McGrath suggests it may be more accurate to think of God as someone we experience or encounter – God as a living reality makes contact with us and perhaps in varying degrees transforms us with each experience. That makes me think of the way we experience other relationships; I may write or email a friend to stay in touch but nothing is quite as enriching as when we do something together – go to a movie, go camping, work on a project or support each other through a crisis. Chapter 16 of John appears to hold great promise of what the Father, Son and Holy Spirit provide for the believer – I'm just not sure how that all works out technically speaking – who does what – when – how ? Now returning to my aforementioned damaged faith – I think I got that TWI thing of "the word takes the place of the absent Christ" so ingrained in my head that I still feel like Jesus Christ is a friendly stranger to me. And coupled with TWI's relegating the gospels to an inferior status because they were not addressed to the church tended to exacerbate my limited understanding of him. I found some interesting ideas in More Than Redemption: A Theology of Christian Counseling by Jay Adams; in the chapter on Counseling and the Trinity, he says the gospel of John most fully explains the theological relationship between the Father and the Son and forms the basis for the teaching by discipleship that ought to undergird all levels of Christian education; Jesus made it clear (in John 14 for instance) that he and the Father were connected – and that his words and works were the Father's – this was the real impetus for discipleship – the way in which the Son says that he learned from the Father. Having experienced in-residence corps training I've come to realize (since leaving TWI long ago) it was training as a disciple of VP….uggghhh! Though there may be similarities in any discipleship program I think the practical consequences of TWI's corps program tend to have a deleterious effect. Jesus philosophy of education was clearly expressed in Luke 6:40 – a student ….a disciple when properly trained will be like his teacher. The Way Corps program was successful in replicating a lot of mini-VPs. We all know Trinitarian doctrine was not just absent from corps training – it was anathema to the nth degree! And in a practical sense the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were also absent in the corps training. That old WWJD (what would Jesus do) may be worn out in popularity - but to me there's nothing worse than the mindset of what would VP do which was so popular when i was in the corps....How's that for the practical consequences of an absent Christ? what's that they say about a true vacuum cannot exist because something will try to fill it. Seems like VP had plenty of skewed doctrine and lascivious intentions to fill any "voids" in theology. I don't get into self-pity or languish inside jail walls of way-baggage; but I do acknowledge the many aspects of what the TWI experience has done to my faith; in some ways it's been damaging – in the doubts I have about the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. In some ways I feel more of a kinship with most Grease Spotters than with any other group just because of the mutual experience. Yeah it's kind of weird – but it works for me.

For what it's worth here's my 2 cents on applying critical thinking to Bible study. Raf made some good points about pursuing testable evidence. Along those lines you may want to check out a thing called hypothesis testing on the Internet . I found one that's simple and clear: The definition of testable hypothesis is an educated guess containing both a dependent and independent variable which can be used in an experiment to be proven true or false through replication and repetitiveness in the same way. testable hypothesis In my humble opinion it seems futile to try to explain singular, unique or phenomenal events mentioned in the Bible by scientific means – which usually involves observation and experimentation. And getting back to your desire to work on critical thinking you may want to re-evaluate your assumptions. The gap theory as I remember it taught by VP (suggesting the rebellion of Satan between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2) – whoever he stole it from I don't know - seems a feeble attempt to explain away the disappearance of dinosaurs and the true age of the earth - this like a lot of the other "scientific" sounding things in PFAL have no scientific merit. I happen to view Genesis 1:1 as a summary statement of the creation of the entire cosmos and the verses following elaborate on that from earth's viewpoint….I can see why Don't Worry said your said your post reads like Dune or L Ron Hubbard – your re-interpretation of Genesis has a definite science fiction / fantasy bent to it.

Surely Jesus Christ had fingerprints...i guess God didn't stick to the plan.

I don't think there's a simple answer to your thought provoking post, Tom. This is one of those topics that confuses me too! If I lived under an extremely repressive or utterly cruel government I just can't imagine myself being a meek and gentle Christian and rolling over and taking it. An easy answer might be to point to other forms of authority/leadership mentioned in the Bible like the role of parents, elders in the church, the husband in marriage, and perhaps even leaders in commerce and industry ; in my humble opinion, any of these roles as well as any government are prone to abuse in one way or another since we are a fallen race… And perhaps what makes Romans 13 an even tougher pill for me to swallow is to realize Paul wrote it at a time when Rome ruled with an iron fist! So what was Paul thinking?!?!....I don't know! I don't really think I would have been a conscientious objector back in my day – I didn't have to deal with that dilemma during the draft for Viet Nam – they drew folks' birthdays in a lottery and I got a high number – so I was never called; probably would have went if I was drafted since my father was a medic in WWII (and received two purple hearts I might proudly add). I think there may even be some contingency for civil disobedience in Romans 13 – since verse 5 speaks of submitting as a matter of conscience and verses 8 thru 10 talk of loving your neighbor as yourself and doing no harm to your neighbor – see no biblical reason to support a government that would persecute my neighbor over race, religion, etc. Well, enough of messing around with hypotheticals in these first two paragraphs…now onto business…. A couple of other passages usually pop up in my head when wrestling over Romans 13 – and they like Romans go along the lines of emphasizing God's sovereignty. One is in Jeremiah 27: 1-8 NIV Early in the reign of Zedekiah son of Josiah king of Judah, this word came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 This is what the Lord said to me: "Make a yoke out of straps and crossbars and put it on your neck. 3 Then send word to the kings of Edom, Moab, Ammon, Tyre and Sidon through the envoys who have come to Jerusalem to Zedekiah king of Judah. 4 Give them a message for their masters and say, 'This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: "Tell this to your masters: 5 With my great power and outstretched arm I made the earth and its people and the animals that are on it, and I give it to anyone I please. 6 Now I will give all your countries into the hands of my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; I will make even the wild animals subject to him. 7 All nations will serve him and his son and his grandson until the time for his land comes; then many nations and great kings will subjugate him. 8 "'"If, however, any nation or kingdom will not serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon or bow its neck under his yoke, I will punish that nation with the sword, famine and plague, declares the Lord, until I destroy it by his hand. This is definitely a weird arrangement orchestrated by God. I don't mean to come across as irreverent or the black sheep of God's family – but this is one of those topics I usually avoid because I'm not into defending something or minimizing it if it seems whacked out to me; but I will say this about my idea of what love for God is about – maybe Christians need to accept Him warts and all just like He accepts us. Don't get me wrong – I'm not saying God is imperfect or ugly like me – the "warts" of God are the things He does or allows or orchestrates or doesn't do - that defy my attempts to fathom His reasons for doing such! I'm saying I love Him anyway!!! Another passage along these lines is in John 19: 4-11 NIV, when Jesus was before Pilate: 4 Once more Pilate came out and said to the Jews gathered there, "Look, I am bringing him out to you to let you know that I find no basis for a charge against him." 5 When Jesus came out wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe, Pilate said to them, "Here is the man!" 6 As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, "Crucify! Crucify!" But Pilate answered, "You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him." 7 The Jewish leaders insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God." 8 When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, 9 and he went back inside the palace. "Where do you come from?" he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10 "Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?" 11 Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." Once again the emphasis is on God's sovereignty. This almost has a fatalistic undertone to it – at least it does to me if I imagine myself in Jesus' sandals saying this to Pilate. And thinking along those lines I sometimes wonder if that is part of the mystery of how things work out – but not in some strict sense of fatalism – that events are determined by an impersonal force and cannot be changed by us mere mortals. But thinking along Christian lines I have this fuzzy notion that maybe God is the personal force that can orchestrate change… sometimes even through the actions of us mere mortals. When thinking of God's sovereignty I also consider His foreknowledge AND our freedom of will...my mind cannot wrap around even the simplest concept of how this whole shooting match is run - if anyone is even running it!!! it is a comforting idea to think that there is a God who is in charge....I sure hope that's true! Does this address your questions about all governments being from God. Nope! Personally I am intrigued about things like this as thorny as they may get - maybe play at backwards engineering to speculate how such an intricate system could be put in place...btw - this is my disclaimer - my post is just a bunch of speculation - i could be way off. It's mind boggling – if I had to write a screenplay for it – I would probably have God as the ALL traffic controller for the world – anything on land, sea or in the air. Every pilot, every sea captain, every driver has freedom of will – and for the most part everything flows pretty good as folks follow the traffic laws; but there's road rage, people being goofballs taking selfies at inappropriate times, teenage drivers :biglaugh:/>, accidents, terrorism, etc. (that's a whole other thorny topic – the problem of evil – which I can't adequately handle either); God as the all traffic controller does not make everyone follow the laws; I admit this is a really stupid analogy – but who is to say how things work out and come together in a crisis – is it God's spirit…His angels…courageous and compassionate people…all of the above – that come into play? That brings to mind Romans 8:28 NIV : And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

i don't have much to contribute on this thread - just wanted to quote some posts that i find touch on ideas i think about. while i don't find any major difference (in a polemic or contrasting sense) between what Jesus taught and what Paul taught - and even though the book of Romans is in my top 7 of favorite books of the Bible (note i'm saying my favorite does not mean i fully grasp it all) - for inspiration, moral guidance or simply to reaffirm what little of know of Jesus - i usually tend to read the gospels over any other books of the Bible. in my humble opinion - i believe one gets a very clear and simple picture of what it means to live the christian life in the gospels; i'm not denigrating the other books of the Bible when it comes to strengthening one's faith - or developing a full orbed theology (whatever that is).....i could be way off on all this - i do have a tendency to think of Christianity as more about lordship than scholarship anyway. == == == == edited to add hi to Abby - sorry about my bad manners - i meant to say hi in the shout box the other day - but got side tracked by Waysider's reference to a Kenny Rogers' tune - guess comedy took priority over courtesy...:wave:/>

it's always good to see your posts, Roy ! it seems your words to enjoy life is a much needed reminded for me nowadays....i get so caught up in work and in maintaining the basics i seldom take time to "smell the roses". but what usually grabs my attention are the simple things like critter encounters around home or at work....yesterday i flushed out a roadrunner that was behind a potted plant just 3 feet from me (you don't know how many times i've tried to snap his picture but he just scurries off) ...when it rains there's a cardinal that sings his head off! there's a bluejay that makes a sound like a sonor ping...sometimes a mocking bird and the cardinal sound like they're in an argument...and we've got ducks that think they own our pool - when they commandeer the pool we have to put the dogs up....we love this stuff ! it just makes us pause and soak up a refreshing taste of goodness.

While reading this thread I found myself wondering just how insecure VP may have been. back in my way daze, I would have thought having God speak to you audibly that He will teach you the word like it has not been known since the first century (as he claimed in The Way Living in Love book) would have been enough validation for his ministry without having to appeal to his bloodline.

and would Lance have a Pinterest account - and would he be stuck with the same user name forever....btw, i would not be interested in the photos he would post; and on a serious note - interesting to find out, one of the founders of Pinterest is Evan Sharp.

Great post, Skyrider! I'd like to add another definition of "submission" that I found on the Internet – "yielding to a superior force". I think that brings into sharp focus what was really happening....concerning my timespan of involvement – during my early years I think of my going along with the flow of TWI life as a pleasant time – like having a courtship and honeymoon feel to it….but as time went on – it seemed like more of a militaristic atmosphere to me…eh, the "sweetness" of the married life huh! And thanks for the link to your thread Manipulation of One's Consent … I believe in the courtship/honeymoon phase for new PFAL grads manipulation was the modus operandi for TWI leadership – and perhaps the operation being at such an imperceptible level for most young folks (and more precisely in whom critical thinking skills are usually not encouraged or developed) – the manipulative techniques also lay the groundwork for a more overt way of motivating people; seasoned PFAL grads - instead of wanting to go along with the flow of TWI life because everyone was so sweet / accepting / forgiving – we find ourselves pretty much compelled to "get with the program" whatever that may be…I remember a couple of years before going in the corps I was working the tape player for a class – and I messed up on where I should have had it cued to start….man, my branch leader really came down on me – I still remember his words to me after that session "you've been coasting for a very long while now it's time to wake up." Rocky, thanks for referring to Chomsky's book Manufacturing Consent - I've had that on my amazon wish list for a long time now but forgot about it – after reading your post, I put in on my wish list again only to find out it was already on my wish list - so I marked it highest priority – which means I'll download it and read it soon; also I wanted to say you made an excellent point of how VP controlled "the media". I've shared this before how I was like a kid with a new toy after taking the class – reading the whole Bible and noting things of interest – to only be shut down by my Twig coordinator – reminding me to review PFAL material. Don't Worry, I always appreciate "the rest of the TWI story" in the experiences you share; I find that so funny that VP's revelation for the way tree came from Alcoholics Anonymous. Perhaps the tree of the knowledge of good ol' evil was a Drambuie Tree….just a thought. Thanks for posting the way tree definition from the syllabus Waysider – and i also wanted to key off your mention of "theoretical" in your post # 18 too; I had a few thoughts; the first thing that came to mind was something the German military strategist Helmuth Von Moltke said - it went something like: No battle plan survives contact with the enemy – thinking of that in the context of how TWI corralled its members, that would make any opposing thought the enemy; I've heard variations of that like – no plan survives contact with reality… anyway I think there's something to that in terms of one way or another TWI leadership figured out how to make the Way Tree "work" or at least that it was perceived to operate by the syllabus' definition. so what is portrayed as a cooperative effort by all (the individual twigs, branches, etc. up the way tree) in reality is actually a chain of command hierarchy similar to the military. Funny you should mention Scientology. After watching Going Clear, Tonto and I have gotten into reading up on Scientology. Right now I'm finishing Inside Scientology by Janet Reitman. It is striking the similarities of the mind-F V _CK games between Scientology and TWI. I guess all abusive organizations/leaders tend to think alike. Another thing that struck me and which I find hard to articulate is that it appears to me that there is something in human nature – in our makeup – some social aspect that can more or less (it's not one size fits all) make one susceptible to the manipulative techniques of abusive organizations/leaders – yeah, it's something that would be a target rich environment for sociologists – I'm one of those that believes people are more alike than different... i also think there is something in human nature that desires order and organization, perhaps in view of finding an environment to thrive in...i love living in America! I try to be a good citizen; obey the laws of the land and enjoy the freedom we have in this country. with my belief that people are more alike than different - i tend to think wherever in this world you may look you will find cultures / societies...whatever that are based on some kind of governing structure...it's not a perfect world - but for people to get along there has to be some form of submission...compliance...something along those lines. Going Clear Inside Scientology While looking up the word "submission" I came across a couple of synonyms which do cast the teacher/apprentice dynamic in a way that I'm more comfortable with; the words "humility" and "meekness". Having attended art school and later in life pursuing a technical career I've always found a modest view of my knowledge and experience has always helped me to respect and to learn from others. submission synonyms Sharp post, Chockfull ! TWI sold folks a twisted version of what the first century church should look like today; with all the talk of self-governing / self-supporting you get the idea we all were building something great together; but after a few years you step back and look at it and say yeah I built something great – it's Alcatraz.

Collateral D, I speak for myself (and presumably or at least hopefully for many others here as well) when I say this – it is refreshing to have you at Grease Spot – and really this is my shout out not only to you but also to the other posters of your generation! Most of the time I feel like what I have to say is not relevant anymore – like I'm an old WWI vet who acts like he's living on borrowed time so he must keep telling his story of life in the trenches while he can. But what I gather from your posts is that it's the "same ole same ole" in TWI – but in a new wrapper. Makes me think of everything produces after its own kind as illustrated in Matthew 7: 15ff - you get bad fruit from a bad tree – and that bad fruit holds the seeds that will produce more bad trees…etcetera, etcetera, etcetera….a threefold perpetuation of ad nauseam. And by no means do I want to take away from your thunder – or the thunder of the other new gen. posters. On the contrary, I believe the new gen. posters at Grease Spot are sounding the clarion call to discernment for their generation.

yup - - he daid.....dats riiiiiiiiight.

This resonated with me…Maybe it was a couple of years after leaving TWI; One day I was hanging out with a friend from work; we had common interests in several hobbies – I knew he went to a Baptist church - he was not cheesy religious nor did we discuss theology much – but he knew I was a Christian and he probably assumed we had many beliefs in common too. ….so out of the blue I decide to tell him about me leaving a religious group that believed Jesus Christ was not God. Thought I'd hit him with the Atomic Bomb right off the bat and see how he'd react – I figured if I was ever going to talk about my TWI experience with someone outside of crazy town - i might as well test the waters with a friend. Now mind you, I just threw that out there – for as yet I was still mulling over a lot of TWI doctrine and so I did not really give him an indication of which way I stood on the issue. And to his credit the first thing he said to me was that he didn't think there would be someone at the pearly gates making sure only Trinitarians got in. We stayed friends and it was such a weight off my shoulders to talk about that and so many other things – that's some good healing – to feel that someone cares and is supportive as you sort things out. It's refreshing to meet someone like that instead of a person who would treat you like some recovering heresy-addict and take it upon themselves to make you their next fixer-upper project. (edited for clarity - just so we're clear on that)

i agree ! Great post Shortfuse !

Yeah - there's a lot to your post, Rocky – - great input! makes me think of how we all got caught up in VP's grand delusion. And I'm reminded of two incidents – which when placed side by side reveal how shallow and phony a life I lived for the ministry. Incident 1: It was about a year or so before I took PFAL or even got involved with TWI. it was late at night. I just got home (lived with my parents). I was wired and freaking out - having a bad acid trip. My mind was all over the place and I could not complete a thought. I was so afraid my parents would see me like this – and was that their voices I hear upstairs talking about me now? I don't know why I did this but I prayed to Jesus Christ. I just said "Jesus Christ help me!" and for some odd reason shortly after that I began nodding off to a peaceful night's sleep…it was the most rapid - yet calm - coming down from an acid trip I've ever experienced.. . I didn't even have to listen to the Allman Brothers, drink orange juice or anything. To this day I still love the SNL skit with Dan Aykryod doing an impression of Jimmy Carter talking down a guy having a bad acid trip .….oh yeah, I did quit doing acid after that…and not long after that I weened myself off pot too. Incident 2: Four or so years later…I'm witnessing at a college campus – see a young man staring at posted announcement of a lecture by this guy who can levitate himself. Not to be outdone by levitation - I launch into the Way Living in Love story of God talking to VP – God would teach VP the word and VP would then teach it to others. Here's the silly thing about this incident – the guy came to our Twig and took the class! It's awful how I feel now – if I could find him I'd try to talk some sense into him if he's still with TWI. i have to admit that is really pathetic – instead of witnessing about a real answer to prayer I received during a personal crisis (and had nothing to do with PFAL, VP or TWI i might add) – I witness about VP. Come to think of it – I don't recall sharing many incidents of something real, some miraculous benefit that actually happened to me as a direct result of me applying what I learned from PFAL. I gave testimony to second hand miracles – alleged miracles at that. I've told you before I am not good at sales; but I could quote from the promotional video….anyway that's one of my many embarrassing stories of being caught up in VP's grand delusion. Ughhh…. no wonder it's fizzled out – how far can folks go on someone else's delusion?

great insight with that post, Skyrider - thanks ....and i think you've given ROA a more appropriate name (which i red-bolded in my quote of your post) ....sooooooo people let's altogether now speak it into being, give sound to the Sakrete of concretion.....let the ectoplasmic cheesecloth slap 'em between the earballs: See you at the cRock !