T-Bone

that's it - thanks

Darn!....well…I can understand…and respect that…but if anything would extend your days at Grease Spot a little longer just bear in mind it’s been the input from seasoned folks with a variety of programs, assignments, and experiences under their belt that help keep me from wallowing in my own pet theories for too long.

Skyrider, great posts !!!! I’ve always appreciated the various factors that you and others get into on so many TWI topics. I think anything that helps one get a deeper understanding of it all is extremely helpful. Sometimes I feel like I can almost wrap my head around the human condition when it’s presented in bite-size pieces…Thanks!

If you don't get an invite you might try telling them you're a writer for The Undertow - and maybe they'll issue you a press pass.

Rocky, I like your revision ! Skyrider, regarding the bigger picture – I think your perspective (from seasoned way corps) is perhaps a more visceral approach – and I might add a key element to understanding TWI’s dwindling power over folks. Keep in mind I was late to the party – I left in ’86 during my practicum year, so I was only a little over 2 years into the way corps program. I wasn’t worn down yet by the daily grind of responsibilities out in the field. At this stage, my intellect ignored any inconveniences, sacrifices, and practical matters in favor of mastering PFAL thru the “master’s” school. In light of my previous tirade – I think it is ironic that among other things Chris G33r’s Passing of a Patriarch was a way to use vp’s supposed spiritual stature to challenge LCM’s leadership. Looking back now - it seems like there was more of a concern over what vp thought of things than there was an interest in finding a biblical solution...Perhaps the back-and-forth of me deciding on who had the best or right take on vp’s “legacy” got me to step back enough and begin questioning different aspects of that legacy – eventually even questioning the facade known as Doctor Wierwille. The TWI mindset can be very imaginative and futile in trying to handle a problem in the real world....I believe the TWI mindset can be even more frustrating when there’s a crisis within way-world.

Your post got me thinking – maybe TWI’s power to hold onto devoted followers has been on the decline ever since vp passed away…many cults are centered around a charismatic leader – vp was certainly that – “…if ever a wiz there was…”; there’s probably a lot of reasons for the mass exodus in ’86 – but maybe the biggest reason was simply that THE STAR of the show died! What was the name of that song - “Star of the Show” (?) by one of TWI’s bands that sang it's you Lord that gets the top billing. Many of us may have sung along in agreement while idols of the heart (Ezekiel 14:3) - hidden by an elaborate cloaking device – kept the reverence for vp below the “inappropriate radar”; vp is the one who started the veiled idolatry – ideas like: we respect the man of God out of respect for God…we respect what the man of God says out of respect for the word of God that he speaks…After a while of thinking this way maybe it all gets lost in the sauce. vp did not get up from the grave three days after his death…however there remains the Wholly Spirit (of lies) at the top of the heap who will bring “all things vp” to one’s remembrance. In my opinion the succeeding presidents lacked the compelling charm to keep folks devoted to the cause – so they resorted to “martial law”. What vp accomplished by finesse subsequent leaders must do by force. But coercion and compulsion take a lot more energy to maintain that pressure – and that’s why I think TWI is slowly running out of steam. I mean - how much mileage can one get out of a departed sexual predator with a flair for plagiarism. TWI’s legitimacy and authority were self-conferred by vp…and now that he’s gone, no one – - and I repeat, no one can take the place of the absent vp.

nope - debonair mannered and perpetually tan George Hamilton (or Hamil-TAN)....don't feel bad - i could not figure it out though I've seen the commercial several times and had to resort to the internetia the new Colonel Sanders

After watching the latest KFC commercial (you’ll never guess who the latest celebrity is in the Colonel getup) – I’ve got an idea for how TWI should have handled the changes in the presidency. Although the original KFC “Colonel” Sanders bore a striking resemblance to Uncle Harry – I think it would be more fitting if all TWI presidents to succeed vpw should also look like him – whether man or woman. I believe through the “miracle” of showbiz makeup (even if it looks campy or ridiculous - give them a phony eyeball, Drambuie cologne, resounding bible-thumping digit, etc.) an idol ideal continuity can be maintained - so that the ineffable greatness of the founding predator president in all his gory glory may continue to be emulsified with “the word”…then of a truth the people will say “same old same old.”

Coincidentally Kurt Vonnegut is one of my favorite authors and I happen to agree with him on that!

I’ll get to your question in a minute - just wanted to say a few words about what you may be experiencing now. What Waysider said seems to be an oft repeated refrain to Grease Spot newcomers - “enjoy life”. Leaving TWI is like running away from an oppressive and/or abusive home. Depending on your length of involvement, experiences, etc. it may take a while adjusting to the real world (as I said in previous post - getting those atrophied “brain muscles” moving again). “Where to fit in?” is a tough question – especially for ex-TWI folks. Because of your experience you obviously fit in here at Grease Spot. But that’s just one aspect of your life – when you feel the need to work those things out; as you grow in your new life of freedom I’m sure you’ll discover or gravitate to other settings that meet your social needs…be it church, new friends, hobbies, etc. If life’s journey is like a road trip – then for much of my 12 year involvement with TWI – I let them do most of the steering while I was encouraged to step on the accelerator as hard as I could. After leaving - it was a little scary…and a little exciting to finally be truly on our own as adults (my wife Tonto and I) – mapping out our own road trip…taking turns steering and going at our own pace. Things like building up savings, developing careers and buying a home were big priorities in the recuperative years after we left. == == == == I still have all of VPW’s books – and like Waysider I find myself referring to them on Grease Spot when I want to reveal some aspect of VPW’s scripture twisting “skills”…. What you do with your books is up to you; some folks go thru with a critical eye to weed out the bad from the good – that seems like too much work to me. in my opinion if there’s anything valuable in them it was something he stole from others anyway – and speaking of his flagrant plagiarism I figure why not cut out the middleman (VPW) and go straight to the source (the authors VPW stole from) – and in that regard I like some of E.W. Bullinger’s works How to Enjoy the Bible, The Companion Bible, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible and his Commentary on Revelation…and let me just say since I left TWI - with my critical thinking process under constant development – I don’t agree with everything Bullinger said or that I’ve come across in other favorite authors. Ah yes – the freedom to think and choose! It's a wonderful thing.

Hi MRAP, thanks for your encouraging remarks – and just to clarify my position on certain polarizing issues like the Trinity – I am not as hard core as some might think; I agree with you in that I too believe it cannot be resolved – and as I expressed in my previous post, there are quite a few biblical topics that seem to be contradictory or inexplicable when considering all the passages that address a particular subject. I am glad I am not a theologian or a pastor – I think I would feel compelled to explain things so it made sense to others. Is it the nature of faith or my little pea-brain that doesn’t want to deem it all nonsense? Not sure….Maybe I like to say I believe in the Trinity just because I have the freedom to do so after leaving TWI ! (although Triunity might better express a working relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) Anyway, on topics that contain so many mysterious elements I don’t get hung up in taking sides and try to respect other viewpoints – since I believe no one has all the answers. I may be fuzzy on a lot of doctrine – but I do think the simple moral demands of scripture are more important (love thy neighbor, don’t lie, don’t steal, etc.). When it comes to Jesus Christ – whether a Christian imagines he is God or is not God – perhaps the really important issue is whether or not he is Lord in my life – do I follow what he says to do. I believe it all makes sense from God’s perspective – but life is often confusing as hell from my perspective. Maybe I’m copping out….and maybe it’s faith – but I do get the idea the Bible presents both perspectives – and maybe that’s where I get the hope that some day it will all make sense to me.

funny Wayside .....that does sound like a familiar sales tactic. == == == == I am really looking forward to reading Penworks' book !!!!

Welcome to Grease Spot Selkie Lass ! Enjoy a cup of Scottish Thistle Cappuccino! I like the name you chose – reminded me of our trip to Nova Scotia a couple of years ago (my mom was from there) – I remember a billboard sign next to a gift shop “if it’s not Scottish… it’s crap” – so I felt compelled to buy a coffee mug and hat there. …..Now this is scary – I read thru this whole thread after reading Selkie Lass’ post and enjoyed the quick read….could have sworn I posted something too – but I didn’t….well, it’s too late now - - cuz my recollection is getting worse….I fear someday a polite young man will knock at my door, show me a green card – I’ll zero in on one benefit “enables you to separate truth from error” and I’ll sign up for that class right on the spot.

Hi Belle ! It's good to "see" you - I always enjoy reading your posts.

Hey MRAP, I’m glad you said something about that…seems like I’m always late to the party…anyway…I rarely look in doctrinal but after seeing your post I checked it out and sure enough you started a thread waaaaaaaay back in March of 2015! Even though the party may be over I posted something there anyway being the blather-puss that I am. Love and peace T-Bone

Hi MRAP, I thought I should say something on this thread in doctrinal after opening my big mouth recently on another thread in an Offshoots sub-forum. And for that post I do apologize for launching a tirade over VPW and certain offshoots which I often view as derivatives – and perhaps that’s the aftertaste of my 12 year stint with TWI talking. Anyway, I don’t have anything substantial to say here like some others have – I find this thread interesting and informative – I’ve enjoyed hearing how others approach different versions / translations and certain topics. I’ve pared down my modest collection of versions of the Bible (mostly due to constraints of space unless they were on software) and still refer to them when doing a serious study - but my favorite versions to read has not changed over the years: KJV (just because that was so drilled into my head from TWI years that I can easily and quickly recall where a passage is located if I am putting something together), NIV (my top choice for casual reading - for enjoyment – and most of my research and reference tools are keyed to NIV too), NASB (for when I want to get into some serious studying – usually I read a chapter or whole book several times and then start mapping out where to dig in – NASB is a very wooden read – but also one of the most consistent in how they translated), and last the NET (I enjoy following all the translator’s notes – and will check out some of their references if accessible). I’ll try to be honest and try to lay aside any bias or negativity I have toward STF’s REV Bible and to be fair I’ve only read a few sections of it as well as the commentary section. I will try to be brief and to the point on my take of it. As I said I have not read the whole thing – and don’t really intend to – and I hope I did enough homework to qualify to say something on this thread. I was a little thrown off by the beginning comments of the REV – in that it would not be a consistent translation throughout – but would toggle between dynamic equivalent and literal where needed. See quote from website below: “We have worked to keep the REV as a literal translation whenever appropriate, like the ASV or King James. It is not a “dynamic equivalent translation,” such as the NIV, although there are times when, to make good sense in English, we had to depart from a strictly literal translation. Our goal is to eventually have an “essentially literal” translation of the Bible that more closely represents biblical truth than any other translation currently on the market, and also one that is written in today’s English.” beginning comments of REV Bible But at least they’re honest about it – and further down in the opening comments they’re also honest about their theology having a bearing on the translation work as Raf pointed out. And on that note I must say my theology also has a bearing on what versions I prefer to read. I am a Trinitarian, favor the doctrine of cessationism, and do not follow dispensationalism. But throwing caution to the wind I skipped around to read different sections – but will just make a few comments on John 1 and commentary for obvious Trinitarian reasons (see links to both below). I didn’t like that they got rid of the “him” and went with “it” in verses 1 through 4. I’m not a staunch Trinitarian and will concede there are passages in the Bible that clearly indicate Jesus was fully human. But there are also passages that give me the impression they are referencing Jesus’ deity. I think John 1 happens to be one of the sections of scripture that speak of his divinity. Altogether I think Jesus is presented as a being who is one of a kind. This also brings me back to the powerful influence of theology on one’s viewpoint. I have to admit – I think the biggest obstacle in my mind (maybe some others have this problem too) when approaching certain topics of the Bible is that I’m uncomfortable with mysteries and paradoxes. I could be wrong on this but I think VPW had a big problem with that too. I think he may have had a tendency to adjust certain topics in an effort to funnel them down so they fit into a system of thought – into something he could understand – don’t know – I’m just thinking out loud here folks. There’s other mysterious or paradoxical topics too – like the sovereignty of God and man’s freedom of will, or that the scriptures written by humans are indeed the very words of God. Getting back to REV Bible and commentary of John 1 – I noticed a glaring omission in not handling a key word - - “with” in verses 1 and 2. VPW sidestepped the issue of Jesus’ deity with his screwy misinterpretation of the Greek word pros = with as in “the Word was WITH God” – saying there was only one way that Jesus could be with God in the beginning, by being in God’s foreknowledge, in the mind of God – in other words, Jesus Christ wasn’t really there in any way, shape or form. I’ve read the REV commentary on John 1: 1 & 2 several times – and maybe I’m missing something – so please point it out to me if I have – but their commentary does NOT really address “the Word was WITH God” - they ignore the Greek word pros and instead go on a lengthy discussion of logos. A footnote in the NET Bible on the word with in John 1: 1 & 2 says that the word Greek word pros (with) implies not just proximity, but intimate personal relationship; the footnote also references The Expositor’s Greek testament where it says pros is regularly employed to express the presence of one person with another. I follow what the REV commentary is saying about logos “…In both Greek literature and Scripture, logos has a very wide range of meanings that fall into two basic categories: one is the mind and products of the mind like “reason,” (the word “logic” is ultimately from the root logos), and the other is the expression of that reason in language or life…” But I fail to see how that trumps the word pros (with) that implies there was someone besides God in the beginning and then later that someone is incarnated – in human form – “the Word became flesh and took up residence among us” (John 1: 14 NET). Also the REV commentary goes to great lengths to disassociate “the Word” from referring to Jesus Crist – and I follow their argument to a point – but I also can see it as Jesus Christ is the personification of the mind of God, the expression of God – and so maybe the problem is with me getting lost in the semantics…Also other verses like Revelation 19:13 “And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God” (KJV) still come to mind. So anyway – let’s just say I’m not crazy about the REV Bible – but that’s just me and my own screwy theology. And I thought I owed it to MRAP to give some feedback here anyway. Hey, if anyone enjoys reading that version – keep on enjoying it! God bless and peace! T-Bone REV Bible John chapter 1 REV Bible commentary of John chapter 1

Hi Bapsy, Rocky, Waysider, and Krys have some good ideas. something I wondered about after I left TWI….it goes along the lines of learned helplessness and/or conditioning…I’m not going to elaborate on that here – you can check out the links below for that…I do like this one brief definition in an online dictionary (2nd link below) which states: learned helplessness in Medicine learned helplessness n. A laboratory model of depression in which exposure to a series of unforeseen adverse situations gives rise to a sense of helplessness or an inability to cope with or devise ways to escape such situations, even when escape is possible. Britannica on learned helplessness online dictionary - learned helplessness Britannica on conditioning VPW would say on occasion that the only choice you have outside of the way ministry is oblivion. Well, who wants that? If you’re not in the (imaginary) protective bubble of TWI’s belief system there’s no telling what could happen to you out there in the world ! So stay inside where it’s safe! That’s kind of a scary way to captivate people…but usually it’s something more positive ....When folks first get involved with TWI they get the idea they’ll learn about these keys they can apply in life to become a success at whatever they’re into. As time goes on they’ll learn that they must stay involved with TWI in an ever-increasing manner – in order to truly master those keys – in other words, you can’t do it alone - you NEED TWI ! Think pyramid scheme – your spiritual growth actually depends on how much you stay involved… and more importantly how much you financially support TWI….(there’s no need to concern yourself with the fact that they do not actually provide products or services of any real value – but they’ll gladly take your money anyway!) == == == == I don’t want to tell you what to do or recommend a certain course of action – but you may want to think about why you feel such a need to get involved with a church. I’m not saying you shouldn’t get involved with a church…but maybe take stock of your life – include your family as well….life’s journey is a very personal and unique matter….while in TWI many of us got so used to following people that we assumed were so much more spiritually mature than us; our “brain muscles” that we used to think for ourselves got atrophied. If you feel so inspired – pray – do you think God could help you design a curriculum just for you – think about topics you’d like to learn more about – look on Amazon or Christian Book Distributors (www.christianbook.com) – or hit the Library and see if anything interests you. It took me a long time to realize this – long after I left TWI I might add – that just being a good husband and good dad is a deeply spiritual and noble endeavor. When I was in it - besides having my priorities following TWI’s agenda I was also a workaholic – so when I left the Way I still had to re-evaluate what was important to me when it came to my career as well as spiritual matters….I humbly admit it took a long time for me to figure out that my wife and kids are more important to me than anything else - - maybe that sounds hokey and maybe that means that’s all I am capable of handling in life – but that’s ok by me.

Ha !!! funny link - thanks Bolshevik... now that gave me an idea.... Plagiarism - an HBO "original" series

another envious cult

Hi Stay Quiet and welcome to Grease Spot !!!!! As the others have expressed - use wisdom in what you want to reveal about yourself. I think the freedom to think and to choose a course of action is our greatest asset. ..."It's been a wild ride since then with all this new information coming at me"....yeah i can sort of relate to that - i left in '86 during my corps assignment in the field - during the aftermath of the passing of the patriarch my mind was energized with a new awareness and hot on the trail of so many questionable things - it was indeed a wild ride.

Perhaps it would be appropriate and better address your concerns if you would start a thread in the doctrinal forum - and focus on specific passages of the REV Bible. But I will say a few words about STF’s translation – and I don’t mean to step on your toes or anyone else’s who enjoy the REV Bible; just understand I am very suspicious of anything that has its roots in vpw; I know JAL has likened splitting from TWI and holding on to vpw’s doctrine to the Israelites’ exodus from Egypt and escaping with all their gold. I don’t intend to get into a whole lot of detail on this thread about why I think anything from the mind of vpw is suspect – suffice it to say that he displayed a proclivity to distort scripture very early on in the PFAL material and class when expounding on II Peter 1: 20, 21 - he stated that it meant the word interprets itself and no one should dare to make a private interpretation: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost…. II Peter 1:20, 21 KJV Not long after I left TWI this was one of the first screwy vpw interpretations I noticed. By simply reading it without the PFAL mind-filter engaged – I realized the passages were not prohibiting an attempt to interpret the scriptures – but merely stating the source of the scriptures – no prophecy of the scripture is OF any private interpretation – the of being genitive of origin – in other words, the scriptures did not originate from anyone’s own interpretation - but rather - as stated in the next verse it originated from the Holy Spirit inspiring men of God. And vpw’s idea of the word “interpreting itself” is often him twisting scripture to formulate his own idea of what a particular passage means – and somehow that becomes THE only legitimate interpretation possible; and if you track the “development” of doctrine in TWI which is supposedly a research ministry – you’ll notice no one has ever contradicted or revised anything taught in PFAL – teachings by others use PFAL as a springboard or merely reinforce PFAL which is set in stone - since it is assumed by followers to be “the word”. I think this self-assuming authority – this elitist attitude of vpw is evident on STF’s REV web page – … Our goal is to eventually have an “essentially literal” translation of the Bible that more closely represents biblical truth than any other translation currently on the market, and also one that is written in today’s English. We think we can do that because we believe a person has to understand the meaning of the text correctly to be able to translate it correctly. Furthermore, one’s theology always affects the way that person will translate the text. It is our assertion that there are theological issues that we understand more correctly than most translators, and thus our translation will reflect that theology. link to STF REV translation web page Personally – I don’t trust JAL or anyone who contributes to the REV translation. I believe folks need to take another look at “the gold” they took when they left TWI; granted, it may be shiny and look like gold in their minds; but that makes me think of fool’s gold - you know a lot of folks have been tricked by a brassy yellow mineral like pyrite - mistaking it for gold. MRAP, I think I understand what you are saying “past TWI involvement does not make a person bad, otherwise, we are all bad.” I’m not fond of using such broad painting strokes when discussing issues with TWI. And believe it or not I tend to give people the benefit of a doubt… if I may be permitted to adopt your statement into something that I think respects the individuality and conscience of folks: TWI is saturated with toxic doctrine and practices; it takes a brave individual to think outside the TWI mindset and see the subversive nature of their doctrine and practices which tend to undermine intellectual honesty and one’s inner sense of what is right and wrong. I can respect whether that person then chooses to leave TWI or stay and try to reform it. If they stay in with the intent to reform - I cannot fault them if they are being intellectually honest and following their conscience; personally I think they’ll be fighting a losing battle – like I said TWI is saturated with toxic doctrine and practices….Perhaps some folks look at their years of involvement and don’t want to throw away all they’ve invested…I can understand that – I tend to think along the lines of cut your losses – abandon a course of action that is clearly going to be unsuccessful before I suffer more loss or harm. Great post JayDee ! I agree with your sentiment; genuine biblical scholars usually have some intellectual honesty – especially when compared to the self-assuming types at TWI and offshoots.

In that regard maybe something along the lines of a good Manchurian Candidate might work.

Great job, Raf ! the video clip had a PBS vibe to it - I like that

Short fuse thank you for posting that! yes Waysider - where does one begin? so I'll just take a couple stabs at it anyway: the overcome idea is a big laugh - in the imagination of way believers I guess attacking windmills feels victorious; the way I understand it now it's all about overcoming the obstacles that keep you from following, supporting and promoting TWI...because in the REAL world all of vpw's promises of victory thru his skewed interpretation - aka "the word" fail miserably. and yikes ! Flashback - children's fellowship / wooden spoon.....that takes me back to my stint in the family corps....besides being "useful" in managing people we learned how Gestapo tactics were also applicable in raising our kids.....reimagining the PFAL story of the mother who lost her little boy due to her fear of him being hit by a car while crossing the street - I think actually it may have been the little boy running in fear from mom brandishing a wooden spoon - darted out into traffic trying to outrun her.

To handle 2nd half of question - what leads one to go wow or corps - has to do more with how manipulative TWI is in managing people and how people get detoured on life's journey. if you stick around TWI for awhile you'll find an almost imperceptible transformation takes place; it's almost like your personal goals, passions, preferences etc are hijacked - or maybe that's reoriented to TWI's agenda; classes and programs are viewed as necessary steps in you achieving any goal. Maybe many of us thought TWI was the means to self-discovery . Classes and programs are a way to develop "the real you" - but it's really to help you become the consummate way believer - skilled in twi doctrine and practice. we were led to believe TWI was God's ministry; to join programs or take on any assignment was almost like following a mandate from heaven..."You wouldn't say no to God, now would you?"