T-Bone

Great post Collateral D !!!!

I just ordered Undertow !!!! Congrats, Penworks on getting your story published !

it could be if one was a Seventh Day Eventist ( that's someone who believes people born on Saturday are special)

i think i'm worse than that - speaking logorrhea-wise - must be getting old Tang...not the drink oh i get it - "oops" is code for order of operations - dang Krys, are you working with Waysider and Bolshevik ?! I thought i could trust you...

let's see...the first thing you have to know is what is available...no wait....we're talking math and not PFAL...awwwww forget it - i suck at both

that's why when TWI hands you a lemon you make a whiskey sour...and.... ...you renew your mind into thinking major ministry events are also family vacations....enjoy my slide show: -click- here's me and the family at the rock of ages - that's me holding the sign "will SIT for food" -click- here's me and the family at weekend in the word - that's me on the right asking some clergy for gas money -click- here's me and the family at corps week - that's me at the payphone trying to drum up more sponsorship

like a mathematician coming back as two statisticians ?

While reviewing this stuff on vp’s subtle thread that runs through PFAL I’ve been thinking about when I first got into TWI. Looking back - comparing his public persona (the man-of-god-façade) with the way he was around the corps – it’s plain to see now what a snake in the grass he really was. Perhaps he took a cue from “the serpent” in Genesis 3. In the cerebral realm of teacher / student situations (the actual physical setting does not matter) ideas are transmitted and processed. However, vp being the crafty “teacher” that he was - constantly worked at sabotaging the student's processor in order for his ideas to be easily absorbed. He’d get one to doubt their own ability to think for themselves...to not trust one's own faculties. For new TWI followers there were only hints of licentiousness in PFAL....but in the corps it was unabashedly in your face when you were around vp. I’ve referred to that pajama party a few times (mentioned in TWI’s Sedative to the Conscience thread) not because it was such a unique event but rather it was his typical manner of moral seduction. As the serpent deceived Eve, vp not only challenged the plain authority of the Bible but even one’s own moral sense of what was right and wrong. Just trust vp’s interpretation of the Bible - this way there’s no guess work on your part. So when the Bible talks about adultery it gets changed to spiritual adultery – messing around with other gods. As a corrupt preacher it seems like vp followed in like manner the Serpent’s-Genesis-3-playbook whenever he wanted to justify or push his unprincipled lifestyle…Change a word, add a word, contradict what it says…Jesus talked about anyone who looks upon a woman with lust has already committed adultery in the heart. vp could slither around that one any number of ways – saying anything done in the love of god is ok…or something like I’ve so renewed my mind that it’s not sin to me…or how would you like to bless the man of God…and it will bless you too….get our needs and wantonness parallel.

i was wondering how the numbering system works with reincarnation.

sexual molestations by certain top leadership lives and reputations of whistle-blowers trashed by an organized slander campaign marriages and families torn apart because one of them did not agree with TWI people sacrificing careers, finances, and personal goals because of pressure from TWI leadership Geshem you said “but you have that in any group” surely you don’t mean any group without exception…you must mean any predatory abusive parasitic life-dominating group welcome to Grease Spot, Geshem....stick around awhile - perhaps you'll find yourself wanting to revise your statement

Hi Geshem, you probably mean well…but may I suggest you rethink TWI’s legacy – scratch below the surface…not sure if I’d give any updated veneer much merit – especially considering Jesus’ words in Matthew 23:27 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean…NIV Also, before you get too involved - like going in the corps, you may want to check out "Undertow" – Penworks and book "Undertow" Penworks blog info on book "Undertow" "Undertow" is a book coming out soon by someone who was in TWI’s research department – the author goes by Penworks here at Grease Spot – the info contained in that book along with what you’ll find here shared by other Grease Spotters should be enough cause for concern…There is a reason why so many were hurt in the past – and it has not be resolved – only covered up…only the naïve will buy into TWI’s “new and improved” rebranding scheme. While I was in the way corps program I found out what skills were really important for us to acquire as leadership in training – we were to master the words of victor paul wierwille – whatever he said about the Bible – indeed that was even more important than the Bible….another skill the corps program encouraged us to become proficient in was squelching any moral qualms…wierwille taught this most effectively while he was showing us his favorite porn video one night – he said a person can so renew their mind that even watching that porn video would not bother them. Looking back – I think that was wierwille’s sedative to the conscience…Guess Jiminy Cricket would not be good corps material.

Very interesting thread and great input by all. I’ve looked at this thread a number of times…I’m a little slow to grasp ideas like this. As far as dealing with my cult-damaged-faith (or whatever you want to call picking up the pieces after leaving TWI)- the point Steve made about vp rejecting the ontological and economic Trinity is a big deal to me now. As far as my current beliefs – I often state on Grease Spot that I’m Trinitarian now – but it’s not that I’ve become a staunch supporter of the layman’s Trinity. Maybe it’s a part of me that wants to rebel from TWI dogma and start embracing a comprehensive view on everything theological. By saying “comprehensive” I don’t mean knowing it all – maybe “comprehensive” wasn’t the right word – I want to take in all the biblical data – even the thorny verses…the inexplicable verses…try to grasp what I can here and there as I continue on my Christian journey. I realize some things are beyond human understanding – and I designate those things as a matter of faith. While reading this thread I kept thinking about one of vp’s chapter titles Are You Limiting God? Although the way vp answers that question is more along the lines of a marketing gimmick - like so many other health and wealth gospel preachers out there. If the only way we see God is as a genie in a bottle and what we can get from him – how is that not limiting God? Great analysis by Waysider and WordWolf of the great principle – which typifies vp’s preference for making everything fit in a neat and supposedly logical package. And to be honest – I think I still have a very limited idea of God – because I too have a tendency of trying to reduce God down to something that is bite size for my pea brain to take in….but anyway, this post must go on… Today after reading this thread again I looked up the terms ontological and economic Trinity and found something that may be noteworthy for this thread by R.C. Sproul: "Ontology is the study of being. When we talk about the ontological Trinity, or as some theologians term it, the “immanent Trinity,” we are referring to the Trinity in itself, without regard to God’s works of creation and redemption. In the Trinity, there are three persons —the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—who together are one being. The ontological structure of the Trinity is a unity (Deut. 6:4). When we speak of the economic Trinity, on the other hand, we are dealing with the activity of God and the roles of the three persons with regard to creation and redemption. In terms of the ontological Trinity, the three persons are distinguished by what the Westminster Larger Catechism calls “their personal properties” (WLC 9). It then goes on to define these personal properties: “It is proper to the Father to beget the Son, and to the Son to be begotten of the Father, and to the Holy Ghost to proceed from the Father and the Son from all eternity” (WLC 10). With regard to the economic Trinity, we distinguish among the three persons of the Godhead in terms of their roles in creation and redemption. It is the Father who sends the Son into the world for our redemption. It is the Son who acquires our redemption for us. It is the Spirit who applies that redemption to us. We do not have three gods. We have one God in three persons, and the three persons are distinguished in the economy of redemption in terms of what They do..." RC Sproul - ontological & economic Trinity I’m not saying that I get all this – but threads like this are inspiring. I’m willing to try a new way of not limiting God and to try not being so restrictive in my thinking of how God works things out. I think understanding the concepts of ontological Trinity and economic Trinity are important –expanding our awareness of God should have some positive practical impact in living the Christian life. I think it would touch so many aspects - - like worship…prayer… service to our Lord / service to others… recovery from cult damage.

i think i've read most of the books published by ex-Way folks and i am certainly looking forward to reading Undertow !!!! I always appreciate a glimpse into the inner workings of way-world - whether in books or at Grease Spot. this past year I have read several books on Scientology and would have to agree with the second Penworks' statement i red-bolded - the experience of idealism, commitment, disillusionment...etc. are universal indeed. so glad i left TWI and so thankful for all the brave and strong folks who share their stories!

I wanted to add something to what Waysider and WordWolf said - it is very revealing to look back now on the teaching methodology that vp modeled – especially in live or recorded teachings that I received in the way corps. If the keys to the Bible’s interpretation presented in PFAL were all that important - you’d think he would have exemplified a proficient use of those keys. If PFAL was truly a culmination of all his hard work and years of research – you’d think he would have proudly gone over those illuminating keys again and again and again – as a master teacher would trying to instill those ideas in students’ minds. However such was not the case with vp. He was grossly inept in the methodology of biblical interpretation – be it his amateurish twisting of the biblical languages or just his bungled reasoning. Was it in Advanced Class ’79 that vp said when God would reveal something to him He would make a word in the passage appear real big. It is sad that this idea of God revealing things to him was what gave his teachings any merit in the minds of many followers. And so it was – whether in live or recorded teachings by vp – what stands out as far as the method of shedding light on any particularly thorny verse of scripture was what vp thought it meant. Even wally C teaching our corps the book of Timothy would often refer to vp - - what vp said about a passage. Wally even bragged about vp telling him before he went over to Germany to look at ancient Greek new testament texts at some research facility – that he should look for a certain wording of a text to prove vp was right on something. The PFAL class and collaterals are merely support materials to reinforce the idea that it’s God to vp to you the dope of glory.

Your post got me to see a weird juxtaposition – contrasting the “ministry” of vp and Jesus’ ministry in the gospels. In the opening of the PFAL class when vp was expounding on John 10:10 / the more abundant life – vp said if God’s Word was not reliable in John 10:10 – if Jesus lied to us - then how could it be reliable in other places – in other words - how could we trust it – (it was something along those lines – it’s been a long time since I actually listened to PFAL)… What if a similar criterion could be applied to “the teacher”….(cough – ahem)…vp. If he lied to us about PFAL coming from all his own research - or he lied to us when he said God audibly told him He would teach vp the Word like it has not be known since the 1st century…then why should we trust him on anything else?!?!

will do ....thanks for the link Twinky

wish somebody would start a food fight

Good article on rationalizing mistakes – thanks for that link Bolshevik !!! The article reminded me of how much the TWI mindset is geared toward masking cognitive dissonance – or how to explain away the issues when TWI beliefs come in contact with reality. We were encouraged to base financial decisions on ideas like “putting the word first” – things put forth in “Christians Should Be Prosperous”, teachings on the law of believing or other nonsense that went along the lines of wishful thinking (ok – there, I said it). If you did not receive the desired results then obviously you deviated from the “sound principles” in TWI doctrine – you did something wrong. Another thing is that life is complicated enough – without adding the impractical complexities of TWI doctrine that justify giving reality the cold shoulder. In my opinion, nothing does more to cloud one’s understanding of how things work than to navigate life’s journey based on TWI’s convoluted-treasure-hunt-map of life. At first, it was so scary for us applying for a home loan so soon after leaving TWI. But as we went through the process it got simpler and less stressful – it was one of those ah-yes-this-is-what-adults-do moments. Another thing that bugs me about their “no debt” policy – it’s a rather dogmatic interpretation of Romans 13 owe no man anything but to love one another. Personally, I lean more toward the NIV translation of Rom.13: 8 - Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another...to me, this conveys the idea of being financially responsible to any debts you may have – and even though you eventually pay them off - you are still indebted to love one another. Looking back - I guess I am also suspicious of leadership’s motivation in pushing “no-debt”. I remember a line of thought that stuck with me after I got off the WOW field – something like you should be ready to move in 24 hours – I got it from somewhere – maybe a teaching of vp’s – I don’t know….I remember another “gem” – to travel fast and far in this ministry you have to travel light… Anyway, I think those “gems” really helped leaders persuade folks to go WOW, Corps, to go into other programs, or even just move to another part of town to open a fellowship there - since they were not tied down with any financial responsibilities. Hopefully the old clunker held together by Way bumper stickers would get them there safe and sound…And just think of all that money people waste in home ownership – with repairs and improvements – when that money could go to TWI of course!

Thanks Twinky…but remember no one person can do it alone It’s going to take all of us…remember we’re funnier together So…let’s make Grease Spot laugh again

Yeah this has been quite an unusual election campaign - - and on top of all that there’s going to be a new prez at TWI. In the past I’ve always appreciated the informative aspect of Grease Spot – it helps me to sort things out – although as I get older I tend to get some things mixed up… …All I know is come January when Jean-Yves is in office he’ll see to it that everyone has their own set of PFAL “tapes” on a private server and immigration reform will require all applicants to take PFAL and have Mexico pay for it.

maybe vp was like the Little Engine that could...."i think i'll con, i think i'll con"

Thanks for sharing your open letter, Skyrider I sincerely hope for the best in Jean-Yves’ reading it perhaps I’ve mellowed some since I left - - but lately I find myself thinking it’s never too late for someone to change their mind.

Hi Twinky !!!!!!

Friends, has your idol worship gone idle? When was the last time you slept sat through PFAL ?

Hi Grace !!!! first off, thank you for your service to our country !!!!!! and secondly, welcome. thirdly, thanks for your posts-a-plenty - i love the input and it sure helps the bigger picture fourthly...you have three first names (as if you didn't know)...though it took me awhile to realize that....observation is not my long suit, by the way.