T-Bone

I fail to see the slippery slope you fear so much. I’m not challenging some truth or whatever it is you’re afraid of losing. Hold onto whatever you want. I was responding to your comments about you not being in the way. I was telling you what that experience was like. I survived a cult. I survived the devilish way Bible truths were twisted by a cult to mislead me.

This is a very important point - not to be missed ! You were not in wierwille’s cult. That right there is probably the biggest reason for the HUGE difference between your experience and that of those in wierwille’s cult. As far as wierwille’s books go, you were left up to your own devices – as the saying goes. You had the freedom to pick and choose…what to accept…what to reject…you had the freedom to choose what you wanted to apply – and the freedom of how you would apply it. No one manipulated, deceived, misled, or coerced you into doing anything. Now perhaps this discussion could go around and around all day over wierwille’s books – which is ok - but we would need to get specific on exactly what is of value and what criteria to use to determine that - however I would like to zero in on the point you made at the end – your lack of the cult experience. You see - wierwille’s books are only one part of the cult formula. The other part of the cult formula is the cult leader. The cult leader is the catalyst. In chemistry, the catalyst causes or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected. a catalyst And what was the reaction that wierwille caused or accelerated in loyal followers who studied his books? Among many other insidious mind-screws it was a belief that he – wierwille was THE man of god for our day and time…I was in wierwille’s leadership training program – the way corps. We did not have the option to pick and choose what or how to apply the things in his books. If you did not agree with him you were thrown out ! being committed to a cult – it’s more than just about book learning – more than just information on a page. Now as I look back on my time in the way corps program I understand how plastic or malleable wierwille’s books and even the Bible became to suit his own agenda. That’s the “charm” of a charismatic leader and the “beauty” of group-think (I’m being sarcastic here). I don’t think outsiders praising wierwille’s books intend to be demeaning to former TWI followers – like we’ve ignorantly thrown out the baby with the bath water – discarding something valuable along with something undesirable. I’m not crazy about that idea because it ignores the complexity and individuality of people. Instead of using very broad brush strokes perhaps a pencil with eraser is in order – I find myself re-evaluating things all the time; that’s the freedom of not being in a cult! I can change my mind on a doctrinal position. I may re-think some aspect and decide hey that’s not bathwater…or something I thought wasn’t bathwater – I now think it is. Outsiders and even folks in the general TWI populace who are fascinated with wierwille’s books and his teachings of “the word” should take a look at the very real practical consequence of wierwille’s works. I’ll give links for three important books below – these are real stories by former committed followers who witnessed firsthand how wierwille often justified his abusive and exploitative behavior with pat answers from his own books or even some Bible verse. Losing the Way The Cult That Snapped Undertow

true - - from the guys' point of view although when I started this thread i was imagining it from the female point of view - and was pointing out the overall creepy aspect of it

That is a very thoughtful post and I can relate to so much of what you said. One of the best points I take away from what you said is that no one on earth has all the answers. From what you’ve said here you seem to have given the issues a lot of thought. My advice to you is don’t ever stop doing that. As far as an approach to Bible study there’s one book that I often refer to – Understanding the Bible by John Stott. It is a simple and solid approach. Understanding the Bible by John Stott

yes - how are you doing today Twinky ?

ILSC: Whether you agree or disagree with schoenheits work the fact is unless you can prove he is wrong then its no different than any other teacher out there, T-Bone: Some of Schoenheit’s work does have issues (stuff that is wrong) – you can read about it in the doctrinal forum; on that thread I pointed out how they deliberately deviated from the Greek text of John 1 STF's REV in doctrinal forum T-Bone: apparently Schoenheit and company think they are free to ignore the rules of grammar, syntax, etc. of biblical Greek so that they can craft a translation that supports their theology. wierwille did that too in his work – you can read about that in Undertow, the author who goes by Penworks when she posts here on Grease Spot was in TWI’s research department and had witnessed first hand the pressure wierwille put on them to twist and re-define words of the biblical Greek to agree with what he taught. Undertow ILSC: who we all have to make a decision to listen to or just follow no one and become an atheist which it seems a lot of ex-way members have become because of one evil person wierwille? T-Bone: You seem to be stuck in an all-or-nothing frame of mind. Where in the Bible does it say a Christian has to listen to or follow someone or else they become an atheist? Seriously, other than Jesus Christ, of course – can you suggest there’s someone else I should listen to and follow? ILSC: makes no sense to lose your faith because of one bad apple. T-Bone: again that's all-or-nothing thinking; I have not lost my faith; is wasn't until after I left TWI that I started to read and understand the simple message of the Bible without looking through wierwille's twisted doctrinal "reading glasses". It's a dangerous thing when a supposedly "christian" organization / followers become so enamored with their leader they put everything he says on par with the Holy Bible, or that the leader becomes the star of the show...that the leader becomes the gateway to a "deeper" understanding of the Scriptures....the leader becomes the head of the church - yikes! ILSC: Lets not forget wierwille was human and some of you here seem to have thought he was more than human perhaps because of his stories of it snowing in a hot month and state or because he healed an indian mans lame arm or because of his charisma. One fraud does not make what hes representing(the bible) a fraud at all. T-Bone: I doubt if you can find any indication that folks on Grease Spot thought wierwille was more than human; however, you will find stories by lots of folks (myself included) who thought he was an honest human being. BUT not only was he a fraud (plagiarizing the works of others, fabricating stories of miraculous feats, as well as being misleading in his credentials) but among other great acts of pretense - he deliberately deceived followers into thinking that his twisted doctrine – the things that he taught – and the Bible – were one and the same! wierwille was really into fraudulent misrepresentation – read all about it in Matthew 7. wierwille was a fraud and his work is fraudulent ! nothing worth holding onto. If you're a Christian and want something to hold onto - something you can put your faith in...try Jesus Christ. love and peace T-Bone

i agree with Rocky...vpw is a cut way above typical con men....i think in his narcissistic little universe he really believed in his delusion.

Welcome to Grease Spot. You wouldn’t happen to be friends with or an alternate persona of the one who started this thread would you? Seems like you’re both coming from the same place but with slightly different tactics…anyway… Just wondering… Frankly, I am incredulous of your entire post – and I do have to say a few things in response. To master “doctor” wierwille’s books is an odd thing to say…– to master something is usually meant one has a thorough knowledge and experience in controlling, applying or using something – for example “she is a master of six languages” to master something ….“doctor” wierwille’s books - besides being suffused with self-aggrandizement are also severely mangled material from other authors – often wierwille’s mangling of plagiarized material was his different conclusions, misapplication and a skewed re-interpretation of other people’s work…..to master that – to apply what’s in wierwille’s books is an effort in futility. I did that for 12 years. I am very surprised…or more precisley I find it very hard to believe that anyone who has acquired a bachelor’s degree in theology (as you claim to have) from an accredited school – which I would assume adheres to academic standards and promotes intellectual honesty would unabashedly defend wierwille’s books. Another thing that doesn’t ring true for me is that you say you confronted many way leadership and backed them down every time. Perhaps you need to explore Grease Spot more…there are lots of accounts of courageous followers confronting leadership – and I want you to pay close attention to the leaderships’ response portion of the accounts – the responses are categorically and uniformly the exact opposite outcome from the supposed victories you claim to have achieved. Concerning your charge that I still have venom, pain, weakness, hatred - you might want to review Matthew 7 on judging others and discerning true and false prophets, true and false disciples and wise and foolish builders. Maybe the shoe is on the other foot. The venom…the pain…the weakness…the hatred within wierwille’s twisted doctrine incapacitates one’s ability to see things objectively. It’s like having a plank in your own eye while you try to see the speck of sawdust in the eye of someone else (Matthew 7:3-5). Yes, you do have two eyes – but focusing on anything is extremely difficult and it’s not a clear picture because part of your vision is dominated by the plank of wierwille’s twisted doctrine. Jesus’ solution was simple yet challenging – remove the plank! I have mastered that one. Stick around here – I mean that sincerely – it is a lot of work – but worth it I assure you – it’s worth it for the peace of mind, freedom of thought and a gazillion other benefits. Love and peace T-Bone

Thanks for that audio link, Rocky – I look forward to reading Konnikova’s book in the near future. The thing about it being in our nature to trust is a fascinating point. We are social creatures and do have to rely on others for so many things - otherwise we would not even survive past infancy. But I think life is also about thriving not just surviving – because thriving is about growing…developing useful thinking skills among other things. I think surviving and thriving go hand in hand. Surviving is important – like Twinky and Penworks were saying we need to be wise…cautious…having our BS detector engaged. The world can be dangerous…treacherous…and we will all experience some hardships at times. I am thankful for my mom, dad, siblings, wife, kids, friends, school teachers, mentors, co-workers, books, the arts, the Internet (which includes Grease Spot )…all that good stuff that is passed down or shared amongst us social creatures – because that helps us to survive and thrive. But on the flip side ...sort of relevant here…what about life in a cult? Group think? A “secret” society of social creatures no longer at large? To survive in the hive you must believe all that jive. I do believe we are hardwired to interact with others but I was also fascinated by Konnikova’s point on how we want to think we deserve good things to happen to us or that we tend to overestimate our powers of discernment and like to think we know a good deal when we see one…I liked her idea of stepping back and looking at a situation as if it was about a third person - like it involved someone else and not me (so it’s not my ego at stake) – what would I say to that person if they asked me what I thought of some product or service. Having experience in security technology I’m familiar with playing the role of the bad guy in order to design a better defense system. A good BS detector may be sort of like that – Konnikova’s third person approach is playing the devil’s advocate in your own thought process – it’s having the bad guy tell you exactly why the design is not perfect.

maybe we could lessen the violence and say Papa gave Baby a back rub...and that's how tomato sauce is made boys and girls.

personally my preference is Chic-fil-A chicken strips and i have to get the Chic-fil-A sauce too !!!!! yeah, their chicken strips are awesome but that sauce !!!!!!! mmmm-mmmmm-mmmmmhhh that stuff is good on fries...hot dogs...chips....open wounds .....uhm you get my drift

back rub practice dummies

did someone say "back rub"?

welcome to Grease Spot, Way8394WC17 ! if you're ever by Steve Reno's Cappuccino Drive-Thru while out and about with the Antique Automobile Club - have one on me

how about a back rub ?

Holy fret-donia begonia !!!! Absolutely fantastic !!!! Talk about a minimalist alternative to overproduced albums. Thanks for posting that, Don’t Worry – I really liked that !

Waysider and all, sorry about the philosophical digression – and WordWolf thanks for the “idea barriers” info; straying from the first post as much as I did got me into thinking on a broader scale (hence the Lennon song Imagine). I’ve thought about this a few times today (and especially in light of my current reading project on WWI) – and mind you, again this is just silly hypothetical stuff - - - seeing how I’m such a weenie about death (I’m against it and would really like to live as long as I can ) even though I do have the Christian hope of an afterlife - - - I got to thinking that (super-duper-silly-hypothetically- speaking, of course ) if everyone really believed that all we had was the here and now – life might be viewed as a very precious thing – wonder if we’d have less wars…or no wars at all…I dunno…just wondering. Another thing - honestly I am struck by the difficulty in imagining Christianity without an afterlife - since it's such an integral part of my beliefs - to remove it is like yanking out one of my lungs! But again - this has been an exercise in a hypothetical "deal". Not sure if anyone thought it would be enacted by God as an addendum - or supplemental clause added later - God taking back or nixing the afterlife "program" and then saying "do you still what to be a Christian?" .....In the scenario of the first post - I assumed the afterlife was never there to begin with - God never mentioned it...That's where I was coming from in my response....sorry for any confusion I've generated.

Rocky you got me thinking how much a student’s natural questioning process was thwarted when taking PFAL and other classes. Most of it was stall tactics by those running the classes – write your questions down and ask them at the end of the class…oh, still have some questions – why not take the class again…then after that…oh still not satisfied, enroll in the Intermediate class…after that …gee, you still wonder about a lot of things – you need the Advanced class. Stall tactics to questions so as to string folks along...keeping them on the long and arduous journey through classes that supposedly promised to answer everything you wanted to know about God and how to tap into the more abundant life made a great con – the shell game – hang in there you might find what you’re looking for.

sometimes I get this haunting idea that maybe the fine art of theology is just thinking things through in a creative way to make sense of God.

deleted double post

if a person joined Gamblers Anonymous - they'd have no fun now and have nothing to look forward to in the future.

thanks Twinky - and I feel the same way about your posts ! posts across the pond

boy isn't that the truth...after we left in '86 there were times we'd immerse ourselves in "worldly" music, TV shows, and music. Steve Winwood's song Back in the High Life Again became our theme.

I bet you do that for a lot of my posts hmmmm....how would you like a job as my new editor?

Rocky you’ve got to stop bringing up books that are on my reading list! Now I have to take a break from The Guns of August…just kidding …but I do have Mastermind: How to Think Like Sherlock Holmes on my Kindle…it’s gonna be awhile before I get to it -I have a lot of reading material on WWI. Seriously, I really do appreciate hearing about interesting books. You mentioning Frankfurt’s book On Bull$hit got me to check it out on Amazon – and you know the spot where they suggest other books “to buy all three” or put on your wish list – I put on my wish list that and another of Frankfurt’s books along with a third that looked real interesting by Aaron James A$$holes: A Theory – I think that one is right up my…hmmmm….alley – yeah that’s it. Anything that encourages critical thinking is interesting to me. I get your point of seeing similarities - wierwille’s mind-numbing techniques and a current trend by some to promote “alternative facts”. Oh I love that! (love how the bull$hit is so unabashedly thrown out there - said with a straight face...if it was me, i would be squirming, eyes darting around, nervous - i mean anyone with that kind of "talent" could start their own cult). I just started the fourth season of Fringe and by now have gotten used to keeping track of what happens in our universe and what happens in the alternate universe…is this life imitating art?.... If my theory is right – this breakthrough on understanding bull$hit is going to be huge folks!