T-Bone

Your plumbers’ reference reminded me of a favorite 3 Stooges episode - A Plumbing We Will Go – I think is the title; Which brings to mind how top TWI leadership “fixes” a problem – they only make it worse

glad you're ok Grace - and thank you for your service - you are one tough sister ! love and peace T-Bone

(i've included your original comments and my questions to provide context and hopefully clarity) TLC: After all, to paraphrase an old saying, truth on the heel of the devil is still truth T-Bone: how is that applicable here? or to put it another way, what are you referring to? TLC: Didn't think that would be hard to figure out. T-Bone: I’m sorry but when someone responds to an honest question in such a patronizing tone, that usually causes me to ramp up the scrutiny on the “words of wisdom” they’re about to bring forth. And so… TLC: If truth can be found and separated from whatever else is written, then whatever is written might be thought useful or profitable. How many other ways can the something like that be said? T-Bone: I fail to see how “truth on the heel of the devil is still truth” is equated with “If truth can be found and separated from whatever else is written, then whatever is written might be thought useful or profitable.” The first phrase (truth of the heel of the devil… etc.) reminds me of something from a Rabbi’s essay – to accept the truth from whatever source it comes. This speaks to acceptance – which is an indication that you approve or believe in it. Hopefully the information has already been vetted by the one accepting it as truth – unless we’re talking about accepting something on blind faith. I think a lot of PFAL students did just that when they first got involved with TWI – they accepted everything vpw said as the truth. btw - being gullible is not a good thing - it never turns out good. Whereas your second phrase (if truth can be found and separated from whatever… etc.) is talking about analysis – using critical thinking – having a goal in mind - to identify and verify a particular truth, fact, etc. ,as distinct from the rest of the material surrounding it, which may not be truthful, accurate or factual. This type of thinking is encouraged at Grease Spot. This may seem tedious to mention at this point – but my questions concern the key issue on this thread – “is it ok to recommend vpw’s books?” that’s why I asked how is that applicable here – and what were you referring to? It seems there’s been a few posters on this thread who have had great difficulty applying critical thinking to vpw’s books and seem to accept it all on blind faith as being ok. or they talk like they've checked it all out, done lots of research on their own and know what's what...but often in discussing a particular issue they still use PFAL as the yardstick for vetting something...Just thought I’d bring that to everyone’s attention again – and I do appreciate you facilitating that. TLC: …A more common (and often more damaging) failure resides in elevating one truth at the expense of some other truth.” T-Bone: Care to elaborate on that – maybe an example or two. TLC: Neither did I think that so difficult to be understood. My concern with giving any narrow example of it is that it might somehow limit or minimize the scope of its relevance or actual effect. Maybe I think it necessary to pray before eating, Maybe you don't. Maybe you think the essence of rightly dividing the word of truth necessitates knowing Greek and studying the etymology of each and every word in the verse. Maybe I think the essence of it necessitates knowing to whom it is written, In short, how or why any scripture is applicable (or is not applicable) to situations in life needs to be considered in light of when it is meant to apply, and not just in light of what is found written in the words of the verse. T-Bone: disregarding your second attempt at a condescending tone, I would have to say your paragraph has nothing to do with elevating one truth at the expense of some other truth – but rather it speaks to the pros and cons of one method of analysis as compared to another – in your second example, studying the biblical Greek compared to studying the passage in light of the target audience – what did it mean to the original audience and what does it mean to us now - how should we apply it sort of a thing. I think a good approach is looking at something from all angles – the original languages, culture, context, historical, geographical, political, etc....I'm also of the opinion a passage can have more than one interpretation and that it's possible to abstract more than one principle to address several situations. (btw your other reference to a personal preference to pray or not to pray before eating is irrelevant to this discussion)

again for those who may have missed it - Whiteside's quote that dMiller referred to did NOT put the kibosh on vp's plagiarism! not by any stretch of the imagination. but rather it makes the case to accuse him - where he admits to stealing other people's work !!!! it's obvious you do not think much of intellectual or academic standards or honesty - i gather that by how much you vaunt vpw to the sky. even if John S said half of what you claim he did - I put no stock in that after what i've read on his website and some of STF's REV Bible...I mean he actually changes some of the text from the original biblical languages to conform to his theology ! well, no surprise there - vpw did that too - and that's one of a multitude of reasons why I wouldn't recommend vpw's books to anyone. and you can read all about vpw's mishandling of the bible from a research staff point of view in Penworks' Undertow book ! ....hey, Mike - that's a book you might enjoy - it's got lots of interesting stuff about vpw Undertow Mike said: "...As far as Dr’s books go, I’m enjoying the peacefulness of reading them and incorporating them into my life without any debate." something I've realized since coming to Grease Spot for awhile now - the old vpw / TWI mindset can only thrive if it stays isolated from reality.

You're way off base trying to put vpw in the same class as David...David was a legitimate leader of God's people; and to review what I said earlier - yes we are all sinners - but David was NOT a willful repeat gross offender like vpw a lying, thieving, sexual predator ! Seriously- vpw is in a special class of those with life-dominating sins that are addressed many different ways in the Bible - - so If you're looking for types in the Bible that are similar to vpw - try doing a study of false prophets and corrupt idolatrous leaders, nazi-type Pharisees, and sexual predators / adulterers. i know this can be hard to understand for some - but if a person will try to think outside the conscience-numbing mindset prevalent in vpw's doctrine and practice- they might see the hypocrisy of assuming vpw was in the same class as David or other notable people in the Bible . And to elaborate on life-dominating sin - if a person is a willful repeat offender - the Bible indicates that person has "earned" the right to bear a particular title - i.e. Adulterer , thief, liar, etc. it wouldn't hurt for some folks to step back and reevaluate their scale of values; imagine what a shocking and offensive impact it would have on someone not in TWI if I were to say to them "I'm in a non-denominational church - our leader is a plagiarist, adulterer , pathological liar, megalomaniac, and likes to molest young women, oh and he drinks a lot but he's teaching the word like it hasn't been know for centuries- wouldn't you like to go to church with me?" Complicated and murky situations come from allowing lying, thriving, sexual predators run their little crazy-town kingdoms. vpw was corrupt to begin with - he took it to new heights during the reign of his miserable "ministry". I sincerely hope that those who are so enamored with vpw do not come into power in any situation - but the reality of offshoots and splinter groups tells me otherwise....that's one reason I continue the fight against corruption , false prophets, plagiarists, and sexual predators on Grease Spot

Perhaps you'd feel differently if you were one of his sexual victims...or if you were indoctrinated to put up with his filth via way corps training.... another thing - yes we are all sinners - but honestly I was never a sexual predator, adulterer or pathological liar, thief (like an unabashed plagiarist) or some other life-dominating sin. The Bible is very clear about the church NOT tolerating such willful, evil , rebellious, recurring behavior; yeah - like # 1 they should not be leading a church - can't picture god giving someone like that much revelation - it would be counterproductive- sending mixed messages to the church don't you think

Mike I beg to differ - the practices contrary to what is often stated in the PFAL books were introduced by vpw himself! In PFAL , vpw taught the Bible means what it says and says what it means - but in person - whether explaining to the corps while showing his favorite porn video or when sexually molesting women in the corps - he reinterpreted verses to allow for his licentiousness- like unto the pure all things are pure - or anything done in the love of god is ok.... seems like that contradicts Bible verses that prohibit adultery.... guess vpw meant to say in the class the Bible means what I say it should mean

Yeah - like the cereal - Coo Coo Puffs

one pill makes you larger and one pill makes you small and the ones that TWI gives you don't do anything at all

Public Announcement: The position of Kellyanne Conway for wierwille apologetics has been filled. Mike, you can dispense with gloating over imaginary victories - past or present. None of us actually overheard your supposed conversation with John S – and I for one don’t give a flip what Indulgences or Sanctions he may have granted you regarding wierwille’s hodgepodge of plagiarized material. And if the best you can do is claim Whiteside’s quote gets vpw off the hook - then why don’t you open your copy of her book and quote it here. You must have it along with all the PFAL books. Go ahead and post it – I’ll let you know if that is a correct citation – since I have The Way Living in Love book too – but I think you should put your money where your mouth is, instead of having us do your homework for you. By the way, copyright lawyers would have a field day with that quote alone! Probably one of the reasons TWI didn’t sell his books on the open market. vpw was a plagiarist and pathological liar. vpw changed the details of his stories so many times - and now dead men tell no tales...What a tangled web of deception he had woven. If this makes any sense to folks still stuck in his web – escape while you can!

How do you reconcile vpw’s unabashed plagiarism with your idea that his books are a product of divine revelation? divine revelation plagiarism

Mike: "Setting the context, John S had done the paper on adultery that had shaken up the ministry in 1985 or 86. If ANYONE had the ability to sense if ANY danger was lurking within Dr’s books, then SURELY he would be on the short list. I had called to discuss with him with my commitment to not only read Dr’s books, but to master them, and them exclusively. He told me in both conversations that he strongly disagreed with me, and he gave me lots of reasons why I should not focus so strongly on Dr’s books." == == == == T-Bone: The response of John S that you describe here seems to be consistent with what little I’ve read on one of his websites – the one with the REV Bible - I think – anyway, on there John notes a number of things that go counter to what vpw taught. I can understand why he would give you lots of reasons to not have such a strong focus on vpw’s books. == == == == Mike: "TWICE in those conversations he had to admit and said so out loud, that if I read only Dr’s books, and disciplined my life to what is within them, I would do well." == == == == T-Bone: Now that is truly bewildering and seems contradictory - after all the reasons John gave you to stop fixating on vpw’s books. And he really said if you read only vpw's books and discipline your life to what's within them, you'd do well? he really said that - out loud? Or you thought you heard that? Was there snow on the gas pumps across the street? But seriously, if he had to admit out loud you would do well – I’m thinking he said that just to put an end the conversation - congrats, you wore him down – I know how persistent you can be.

“After all, to paraphrase an old saying, truth on the heel of the devil is still truth” how is that applicable here? or to put it another way, what are you referring to? “A more common (and often more damaging) failure resides in elevating one truth at the expense of some other truth.” Care to elaborate on that – maybe an example or two.

I was referring to those who frequent Grease Spot - not the occasional visitor; but I do understand what you're saying - I tend to think there's some who get so immersed in defending the bad guys (vpw and company) they don't listen to all that's said here

Hi Grace VC - I always look forward to when you're on a posting spree - I appreciate your input. Tonto and I are re-watching The Office - we're up to season 4; the relationship between Michael and Jan is so funny and interesting too! It reminds me of us - we both have issues - but unlike Michael I try to not be so oblivious to my weirdness; often as another way of saying I love you to each other one of us will say " thanks for putting up with me." Acceptance

I think most folks who frequent Grease Spot learn to develop critical thinking skills - and in that regard, are not prone to get stuck in one mode of thinking; a critical thinker is wise enough to figure out when to focus or zero in on a subject of interest and when to step back for an overview - toggling between the two provides context with detail.

oh yeah - that's another thing I forgot to mention on my list - tunnel vision tunnel vision

For 12 years I thought the PFAL books worked – even though the results in my life and what I saw in the lives of those around me during my TWI involvement were negligible or non-existent – quite a disappointment from the supposed extraordinary benefits of the PFAL class/books that I was led to expect by the person who got me to signed up for the class. I’m still amazed that I stuck with such a worthless-abusive-exploiting-moneygrubbing-predatory-parasitic-deceptive-manipulative organization for 12 years thinking it was doing me some good…must have been the placebo effect…confabulation…some form of disassociation…ministry doublespeak didn’t help any….and when all else fails you can always spiritualize yourself into oblivion: “my car is on the fritz, I can’t make rent again, can’t work overtime cuz I’ll miss Twigs and helping to run a class…my life sucks - - - no wait – there I am going by my five senses again – better renew my mind.” Placebo confabulation dissociation doublespeak spiritualize

Raf, thanks for the link to that Pete Enns article - good reading! I even followed the comments below that....I put several of Enns books on my reading list...many of his points make a lot of sense to me...again thanks, Raf - you always bring a lot to the table - much appreciated

yeah - just to clarify what i said - it was the huge lie that he started - that god talked to him and continued to guide him throughout his "ministry" - that i naively believed for 12 years - the huge lie is still perpetuated by others . that's why i put it this way: "....wierwille had that connected-to-god status in the minds of many - and that is a hard thing to let go."

in my opinion "the word that wierwille taught us" contained a very insidious element - it was a simple idea....one that he conveyed in so many different ways.....it was the idea that god taught him the word so he could teach others...that idea captured my imagination for 12 years....maybe that's one of the things that keeps these die-hards going....when things get tough or confusing - get back to basics - what wierwille taught - yeeeech! In the aftermath of passing of a patriarch, I remember one of my corps brothers saying when he got to his field assignment he was going to run back to back PFAL classes - that was his solution to all the dark and depressing nonsense of those days. That's so crazy and weird - to think back on that time with what I know now. For anyone to be so rah-rah PFAL and rally around all things wierwille - was like trying to help someone coming off a bad acid trip and saying what you need is more acid....it's a trip alright - - wierwille's ego trip. ....wierwille had that connected-to-god status in the minds of many - and that is a hard thing to let go....and maybe that's why splinter groups throw a cloak of invisibility over wierwille's moral depravity....but i tend to think each reiteration of wierwille's teachings gets more troublesome. like when you make a copy of a copy - there's degradation - of already shoddy material. from what little i've read on Scientology - some folks do split off and do their own thing - holding onto certain beliefs and their trusty e-meter. I could see that "autonomy" as an option for some folks in any cult who like certain things but not all the control exerted by the established group - so they slit - on their own or with a few others. that's how some religious movements get started.

whaaaaa...??? we haven't even had our first Racket of the Ages festival yet...hmmmm....ok...fine....be that way... ...guess I'll go with plan B - - and start my own splinter group Revival and Regurgitation.

ok - but remember you'll have to abundantly share 99.99% of all you rake in to the cult leader or god (aka cult leader) won't even spit in your direction.

Yes – thanks for your quick and informative reply to my questions, Touch of Spice. As far as your experiences with TWI being very different from many of the folks here on Grease Spot – all I can say is from my own little pet theory – concerning one’s TWI experience: usually the more involved / committed one became – the more that individual was exploited. The degree to which a TWI follower was used and abused to a greater extent was commensurate with how much the person was wholeheartedly dedicated to The Way International. No matter what one’s level of commitment and involvement was – it seems a fairly common mindset adopted by many was that doing anything for TWI was the same as doing it for God. And along the same vein of thought anything said in PFAL, in TWI teachings and magazines was considered to be on par with the Holy Bible. Again, I must emphasize this is just my opinion so take it for what it’s worth. To spell this out in practical terms, a person could remain just a member of a Twig Fellowship for years and not experience or hear of any of the awful things you’ve read about on Grease Spot. That’s because of certain "unwritten policies" put in place like the Lockbox as well as certain people in TWI’s chain of command that serve as a buffer to prevent knowledge of things incompatible with a supposedly Christian organization from reaching your average TWI follower. I was in TWI for 12 years, and had just finished 2 years of in-residence way corps training when I left. I left because whatever critical thinking skills I had - that had laid dormant for so long were suddenly charged into use (like an emergency resuscitation or something) by first Chris G reading Passing of A Patriarch, then afterwards leadership vying for power, and a dark and depressing malaise that seemed to swallow up everyone. And when I say that my critical thinking skills were charged into use - it's like a sub-zero cold day - you're outside - your ears are uncovered - someone sneaks up behind you and flicks your earlobe - - damn that hurts !!!! fyi - unraveling all this mess is a very painful experience - you have to deal with shock, denial and a bunch of other "negative" things. But it's worth it in the long run - oh, it's so worth it. the freedom, the ability to think what you want, the rush of reality that splashes in your face! After leaving, I continued to read the Bible, acquired a modest library of books on theology and biblical languages – from which I came to the conclusion that there were lots of issues with PFAL and the doctrine and practices of TWI. Noting your tendency to research, as a fellow Christian I would encourage you to keep up that habit and to always work on sharpening your critical thinking skills. I hope you continue to visit Grease Spot also. I’ve listed some books below – by former TWI followers – that might be of interest to you. Note especially Undertow – the author goes by the name Penworks when posting on Grease Spot – she was in TWI’s research department – and if you’re not afraid of getting your bubble burst on TWI’s “the Word” – you ought to put Undertow on the top of your reading list – it will blow your mind ! Love and peace – may you have many enlightening experiences on your journey T-Bone Undertow Losing the Way The Cult That Snapped

Great posts Potato ! I can relate and I bet a lot of others can too. That learned helplessness that TWI followers acquire kept everyone in check...I agree with what the therapist said about it taking a few years for one to feel comfortable actually being in the driver seat again....terrible thing to let those decision-making muscles in our brains atrophy - but there's no better therapy than getting to take charge once again!