T-Bone

nice choice HG30...you know, until I was familiar with Journey's tunes - just going on their sound - I used to get them confused with Asia and Toto. let's jack things up a little bit. Buddy Guy doing Mustang Sally live...i just love his live performances....a few years ago Tonto and I caught him at a small club in Fort Worth (Caravan of Dreams - i think that was the name)- - it was fantabulous ! i think he was wearing bib overalls and with his polka dotted guitar on wireless transmitter was walking around the small tables of the club interacting with the audience...there ain't no hype...this man is a down-to-earth-blues-full-of-blessed-music... what a guitarist !!!! and what an engaging performer !!!

Wow, Penworks, thanks for sharing that! A couple of things occurred to me. Once again, that old saying actions speak louder than words came to mind. I think our kids go more on what we do than what we say. The other thing is the startling observation from a child’s perspective. Perhaps her young mind was not as cluttered up with all the intellectual smoke and mirrors of TWI's doctrine & practice - and was therefore capable of seeing how much of our belief system actually revolved around the cult leader.

Just wanted to add a comment – I think Grease Spot is multi-purposed. One aspect of which is to serve as a warning to others. A few years ago I found the picture shown below and really took a liking to it. For me it has a two-fold meaning. In one way, it represents the mistake of me being gullible and following a charismatic leader of a cult. Group-think as opposed to using one’s own critical thinking skills leads to disastrous results – sucking down one’s time, resources, energy, etc. in the whirlpool of a sinking ship. Usually a smart person learns from their mistakes…I did and abandoned the S.S. Gullible. In another way it represents the “vessel” of TWI. I was in TWI for twelve years. Thinking back on where my head was at just before I left – it was a huge breakthrough to realize TWI was NOT the body of Christ. It was NOT God’s ministry. It was a cruel, legalistic, exploiting, and life-dominating organization with some sick and deranged predators at the helm. Going through the way corps leadership training program afforded me a small glimpse of the twisted doctrine and practice that runs this ship. Hence, another realization: the similarities of the Spanish Inquisition and the modern-day-monarchs-of-madness going at it after the Passing of a Patriarch edict (leadership vying for power after the supposed last will and testament of the deceased founding cult leader vpw - for some, one's opinion of Passing of a Patriarch was almost like a litmus test to show where you were at spiritually) ...eventually offshoots happen - variations of the original cult - that's why I'm not interested in checking out other ministries or following any particular person.). ....I abandoned the S.S. TWI-tanic in 1986. Waysider had a good suggestion of exploring more of Grease Spot – perhaps you’ll get a better understanding of why people have responded the way they did. I wish you the best love and peace T-Bone

Thanks for your kind words, Penworks. Preach all you want…and I’ll chime in too. It’s scary how vp’s traits like being callous, mean-spirited, berating and accusing people - rubbed off on some folks. Oh the communicable "wonders" of the way corps training program. Reminds me of something his star pupil LCM said one corps night (consider this a follow up note to my previous post). At the time I didn’t even write it down but it surfaced in my memory years later as a mean and ugly blast from the past …after our daughter was born. LCM was on some rant of the moment about Special Olympics and he referred to the athletes as freaks of nature…..those were his exact words. Back to your mention of the Women’s March; they had a big one here yesterday…We would like to have gone to it but couldn’t because of work and other commitments.

I thought of a few things on the duality of life – and thanks, Rocky for the link on duality. My former ministry-mindset would NOT accommodate a duality – rather it focused on supposed dichotomies…conditioned for either-or thinking only. Which is an interesting tangent - it's a false dilemma (see link below) – when only two choices are presented – yet more exist - the type of thinking vp promoted tended to eliminate options and through deception and fallacies one was more or less “forced” to choose his way – because all other options according to him were insane, devilish, worldly, off the word , blah blah blah. false dilemma excuse the digression – but I thought it sort of goes with the duality thing. We were taught that any financial hardships, failures, health issues, etc. were always our fault, we weren’t believing enough, we weren’t putting the word first, we weren’t abundant sharing enough, we weren’t speaking in tongues enough, blah blah blah. What was it with this insane obsession we could manipulate reality – if we would just knuckle down and do all those release-the-genie-in-the-bottle techniques. We were not encouraged to embrace all of life (take the good with the bad) – but rather to ignore whatever aspects did not fit with TWI’s paradigm. If your spouse…friend…(whoever – you fill in the blank) doesn’t agree with what TWI says is “the word” – then they can take a hike. If you can’t think “the word” at your job – then get a new job. I think embracing all of life is more realistic – to accept the duality of life - if I want to “own” all the good fortune that comes my way then I think it’s only fitting I should also “own” the unfortunate things that so often comes with the territory. I am so blessed – I am still so crazy about my wife Tonto – she is my inspiration. The odd thing about it is – if I hadn’t been in TWI and gone WOW I never would have met her….yes…it’s true…I married my WOW sister. Scandalous indeed! However – this worked out pretty good – more than anything else or anyone else – she has been the most helpful to me with my ongoing “project” of unpacking/sorting/analyzing/dealing with the mental baggage of a lifetime (not just TWI stuff)…hopefully I’m becoming a better person or less of an a$$hole…six of one half a dozen of the other…ahhhh there’s that duality of life again…I’m a better person and less of an a$$hole. Two years after we left TWI our daughter was born…with Down Syndrome. Again I am so thankful we had left TWI – I don’t think I would have handled parenthood properly if I was still in TWI. My concerns would probably have been more centered around myself – what is the matter with my believing? What will other believers think of me? Fortunately for my daughter, when I left TWI I had nothing BUT MY FAMILY to be concerned with. I’ve heard it said people with disabilities often draw out the best in others. I think that is true. Sometimes when we go somewhere like on a vacation or family outing I find myself wondering if I were her what would make this thing we’re doing more enjoyable. I’m really into developing empathy. Tonto and I have been together for over 40 years. Through thick and thin….WOW, Family Corps….we’ve survived a cult dammit! Through financial hardships, ups and downs in our separate career paths, health issues, car wrecks, helped our son pursue a contractor trade, raising our daughter with a disability. There’s no way we’re giving up on each other now after all we’ve invested in our life together.

I’ve been looking into some older threads….Nate, good post/link on foreknowledge – thanks. vp offered an absurd explanation of the Greek word pros in John 1:1 …in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with [pros] God… vp said: The word pros means “together with, yet distinctly independent of.” That is exquisite semantic accuracy. Jesus Christ in the beginning was together with God, yet He was distinctly independent of Him…How? In what you and I would express as “in the mind of God. God in His foreknowledge knew of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.” (page 102 of Power for Abundant Living, the chapter titled In the Beginning Was the Word) == == == == To unravel vp’s nonsense – let me restate his explanation another way: Jesus Christ was only a gleam in the Father’s eye. However God’s foreknowledge of Jesus Christ existed independently of God - - - God’s own foreknowledge of Jesus Christ was apparently separate from His own mind. ok - back to speaking sensibly...If you ask me that makes no sense (vp's explanation and my rephrasing it). If someone told me they have thoughts that are independent of their own mind I would probably recommend they seek professional counseling. According to real scholars of biblical Greek, the preposition pros implies not just proximity, but an intimate personal relationship (see The Expositor’s Greek Testament Vol. 1 page 684 discussing the word “with” in John 1).

Great post Skyrider, I followed your link from the Old Threads thread . I enjoyed that article from the NY Times - thanks. The Internet is a double-edged sword and takes vigilance and discernment to cut thru the BS; on the flip side, it’s a handy super highway of useful information. Grease Spot is like penicillin that fights the debilitating mindset of TWI’s diseased doctrine and practice. There’s a lot more to what happens at Grease Spot than just folks expressing their opinions, experiences, etc., along with whatever mood they’re in. I think we bring something in our hearts when we come to Grease Spot – something that is seeking validation…resolution…explanation….or whatever. When I come across a post that resonates with some issue or experience that I’ve had – then ba-da-bing there’s some healing…validation…something is satisfied. A few years ago I got on this big kick - reading up on conspiracy theories of JFK’s assassination. Never gave it much thought at the time it happened – I think I was in the sixth grade. But years later when they released the horrific Zapruder film footage showing JFK’s head snapping back, it was forever burned into my young mind. So now as an adult reading some of these conspiracy theories – I wouldn’t put much stock in any theory that ignored the simple physics of a human head being forced backward by a bullet from a shooter positioned somewhere forward of the victim. We may never be able to unravel all the mysterious details of JFK’s assassination – but I will always think there was a conspiracy - of at least two people – maybe one on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository and someone else who was forward of the president’s motorcade. Although I grant you there may be some evidence to indicate Colonel Mustard did it with the lead pipe from the Grassy Knoll. Just like my opinion on the JFK thing mentioned above, my view of TWI is biased – based on personal experiences. I left TWI long before coming to Grease Spot. But it was so validating to come here…so healing….so satisfying…to read posts about others having similar experiences…similar doubts, fears, frustrations, realizations, etc. …I would read a post and think hey, I thought that too - I wasn’t so stupid after all…I had a similar experience reading Penworks’ Undertow – several times she had made a statement along the lines of feeling like she was not spiritual enough to understand a situation or what was going on. That describes my feelings for most of my 12 years in TWI. I’m glad I’m out and I’m glad there’s Grease Spot.

Hi Twinky - this is an old thread, but I just now noticed it - not sure if you ever found a solution to printing off topics - but here's what I use – also will include software details… My laptop has Windows 10 and I also have Microsoft Office 2010. I normally prefer Firefox as a browser but for printing off threads it works out better using Microsoft Edge (aka the old Internet Explorer). If you’re working with a Mac I can’t help you – not familiar with that….Also this may not be what you’re look for because this format does not allow you to edit or update it – if you want those features you might try Microsoft XPS Document Writer (also in drop down printer options if you have Microsoft Office); printing to PDF works for me because I usually use it on older threads and I don’t want to alter any of it; if an old thread ever gets bumped up to current and I want those newer posts I will delete the existing PDF and print off a new PDF with the current date along with the thread title. 1. Open up Microsoft Edge, go to Grease Spot forums. 2. Go to a particular thread…for example Farewell Rosie! (by Twinky – hey, that’s you ) 3. Once on that page, look at the top bar all the way to the right – on my computer there are three dots – if you move your mouse over them it says more – left click on that for a drop down box – then click on Print. 4. That brings up a print options box – the first option at top shows you the default printer for your computer – mine shows my HP printer – so I click on the down arrow and scroll thru other print options – I choose Microsoft Print to PDF – and then can save it on my hard drive, email it or burn it onto a CD; I also have a free downloadable PDF maker called PrimoPDF – but found Microsoft Print to PDF does a neater job. In Margins I set them to Narrow. 5. Then click on Print button at bottom left. 6. That will bring up file save box so you can name the file and designate where you want to save it. I usually name the file the same name as the thread (except I leave out any odd characters like asterisks, semicolons, etc. and I also add the date I’m “printing it” out. In this example it would be Farewell Rosie started by Twinky_as of Jan 18th 2017.

(((((((Krys))))))) I was back-tracking on a few of Skyrider’s threads and so got into this one….I was so stunned and upset by your account as quoted by Skyrider in the Timeline Insanity on Steroids thread that at the time I did not know what to say to you on that thread. But I am glad I followed up and read this thread. One thing disturbs me very deeply - the far-reaching effect of those f0ck1ng predators. I cannot imagine or relate to what you and your family have experienced. But for my own issues, mental baggage, etc., I just wanted to say your posts on this thread are a great source of encouragement…and another reminder I am still not finished healing. I really really really appreciate your honesty and courage.

watching Going Clear when it first aired on HBO got me into reading several books exposing Scientology and of course Penworks' Undertow that was "trending" on Grease Spot (can i say that? i've been wanting to say "trending" after hearing it so much on the Today show). i even bought the DVD: Going Clear on Amazon

oh my God ! Don't Worry - thanks for the latest on Dave & Marc - they're in my thoughts and prayers....I caught TOP ages ago at the Fillmore - with Santana, Mountain, and Mylon LaFevre (not sure of spelling) and Holy Smoke....have loved TOP ever since.

HG30, thanks for the ROA youtube...really enjoyed that...I wound up checking out a few of those....uhm.... was late for work. most of the fond memories i have were the times i was just hanging out with friends....it's a shame some life-dominating cult got in the way of that.

interesting thread - and great thought provoking posts, Roy & Waysider ! i wanted to add a comment about the dynamics of control - i think it's a two way street...perhaps having an idol gives one a sense of control (this idol will bless my undertaking, give me power over my competition) - but I think in a way the idol also exerts some control on the person - in that one may feel compelled to satisfy some "trade agreement" with the idol...meaning if I have this fixation with money or power I will do whatever it takes to get that - no matter the cost of sacrifices in other areas of my life (friends, family, honesty, etc.)...and as Ezekiel 14:3 indicates - an idol can be something we've set up in our heart - no one else would be able to see this invisible idol - except for God of course.

peons of the world unite !!!!!! (myself included) welcome back StringChairs / OutinTexas you still get a cup of cappuccino on me

great group HG30 - my wife turned me on to them - one of my favs of theirs is My Little Demon - (FYI sometimes I refer to our little rat terrier Annabelle as My Little Demon - she's a little killer - gets lizards, birds, possum, snakes, and of course rats ) that tune brings to mind another song by Tower Of Power - keep your monster on a leash

Welcome to a Special Advanced Class...as soon as our ushers have seated the nice young lady they will escort you all to your assigned seats.

beautiful....thanks Don't Worry ! I called Tonto in to hear that - one of her Beatles favs....love the chords and him playing the harpsichord instrumental part too...that dude Rob is a phenomenal bassist ! Thanks again. and that bass is beautiful - in sound and looks!

I found out ("finally !!!!!" - says Tonto) that my wife and kids are the most important "thing" in my life. I found Grease Spot and great folks to think out loud with (Xcuze the bad gram-mer).

So I’m thinking after a long day at the seminary he’d kick back, light up a Kool, sip a little communion wine and watch a few episodes of the Three Stooges on a VCR.

Don’t Worry, that little violinist has SOME VOICE ! Waysider, thanks for the King Crimson tune – Greg Lake was so talented – I read he passed away this past December. HigherGround 30 – I love Low Rider – and it always evokes a weird WOW memory; I was a non-commissioned security guard (my first job on the WOW field – and first week on the job); security company was shorthanded and sent me to stand guard at a bank one day; needless to say the branch manager at the bank called my supervisor to complain about sending a kid with no firearm to guard his bank lobby…don’t know if it was out of frustration or punishment but the branch manager told me to stand outside and look official…here comes the surreal part…late morning there’s a dude walking across the street with a boom box on his shoulder that’s blaring Low Rider…I remember a momentary tinge of fear and some thought like “this is it! It’s going down right now!” fortunately I was able to regain my composure and maintain the hedge of believing around the bank entrance - oh, and I quit that job after that. Krys, I love to hear variations of tunes – here’s another one

thanks - I appreciate your thoughtful reply and I lean toward deriving meaning from the text as well....and I must say being afraid to commit to any one particular theological approach - I'm a free-range chicken.

great post Steve - and thanks for your review also...by the way, i find your comments on systematic vs constructive theology fascinating; I have several systematic theologies but I am curious if there was a constructive theology you might recommend....I found one on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Constructive-Theology-Contemporary-Workgroup-Christian/dp/080063683X but was curious if you have a particular one you like.

Twinky, I’m with you on unwanted touching / hugging etc. I am not a touchy-feely-type guy. I am very reserved – especially around the opposite sex. Maybe it’s just me but even as a teen I believed any touching, hugging, and kissing led to some serious business…so I was always a little uncomfortable even if I was standing near a guy believer giving a girl some big-believer hugs. Not trying to paint myself up as a saint – just felt safe with my hands-off policy – otherwise I’ve got to deal with the “bad thoughts” inspired by the touching/hugging/kissing. Don’t mean to condemn Mr. Hugger either…but it doesn’t hurt to hear what women think of all this. Yeah I would think the atmosphere of a home-setting would tend to soften boundaries – where folks let down their guard. Along with what WordWolf said – friends…family…relatives….meet in the home all the time but it gets complicated with TWI – there can be other things at play. I think there was a “grooming process” with a predatory bent thanks to the insidious elements that trickled down from vp’s “ministry”. Like In vp’s Christian Family and Sex class – a weird idea runs throughout the class as a subtext or subliminal message - that the “renewed mind” can handle anything – and so inappropriate and offensive things can wind up getting lost in the sauce of moral disengagement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_disengagement I was fascinated by WordWolf’s phrase “ It WAS the way some people did it in twi, but that was almost an accidental by-product of the process, like drawing in real Christians into the web of exploiters and con artists.” TWI could bring out the best and the worst in people depending on one’s makeup (personally I prefer the Maybelline brand ). If you had altruistic or idealistic tendencies you looked for ways to help others. If you were a predator, con artist, etc. you appreciated the target-rich environment.

Welcome to Grease Spot, Grant!!! I hope you find your old friends…(I was in Family 11, by the way). Have a cup of cappuccino on me - - this cup works a little differently – it actually takes a picture of you and then posts it on Instagram.

Dang ! Thanks for that Don't Worry (and the Doc Watson clip too)....awesome - wish I could play like that - they both seem like naturals - love the chords, slapping and popping by both and the weird noodling (or whatever it was) the guy does with his plucking hand (right hand) mid-neck.....Larry Graham (bass player with Sly and the Family Stone) is credited with first doing popping and slapping the bass to supply the rhythm ....anyway here's Larry Graham doing a Maroon 5 tune - not sure - but it appears sometimes Larry plucks the strings with thumb and forefinger as one would snap a rubber-band: